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View Full Version : Bad news out of Michigan - Are we all OK?


Bruce K
06-07-2016, 07:33 PM
News report of a car plowing into a group of cyclists in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

At least 8 injured with several fatalities. Possible Hit-and-Run.

Hoping the remaining will all be OK and hoping it is nobody from our community.

BK

zmudshark
06-07-2016, 07:39 PM
Latest word is it was a weekly group ride, at least 5 dead, possibly children injured/dead. Driver arrested. I hate riding in MI.

OldCrank
06-07-2016, 07:40 PM
5 dead...
Hope those drinks were good, you useless bastard.

http://woodtv.com/2016/06/07/bicyclists-dead-after-crash-north-of-kalamazoo/

Cicli
06-07-2016, 07:42 PM
This is sad. Driver needs to pay, dearly. Bastard.

rwsaunders
06-07-2016, 07:44 PM
Sad, sad story.

zmudshark
06-07-2016, 07:48 PM
I've already seen victim blaming in comments.

mtb_frk
06-07-2016, 08:06 PM
ugh, this just makes sick. I live on the other side of the state and haven't heard anything about it yet. Just terrible, I don't understand how anyone can drink and drive.

bcroslin
06-07-2016, 08:12 PM
I've already seen victim blaming in comments.

Never read the comments.

Man, awful. Don't know what else to say.

stackie
06-07-2016, 08:21 PM
Crap. That's my hometown. :(

First the Uber driver killer now this. Place must be taking a turn for the worse.

Jon

Louis
06-07-2016, 08:29 PM
Based on the Google Map in the article that looks like it should be a good, low-traffic area to ride. However, nothing but luck can save you from a drunk driver.

zmudshark
06-07-2016, 08:33 PM
The driver was supposedly reported earlier in the day, and nearly hit a pedestrian as he was leaving the parking lot, Someone yelled at the pedestrian to 'look out' and before he could shout to the cyclists, they were hit, according to the pedestrian.

News conference at 11PM, but reports say 5 dead, one child.

Geeheeb
06-07-2016, 08:50 PM
I've been down that road and its pretty typical of the area. I felt safe.

Terrible news.

aatores
06-07-2016, 09:52 PM
Something has to change...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-bicyclists-killed-in-michigan-car-crash-media/ar-AAgMlna?li=BBnb7Kz

Dead Man
06-07-2016, 09:58 PM
Something has to change...

Doesn't sound like they know what happened yet...

ultraman6970
06-07-2016, 09:58 PM
Hope they kill this bastard and get everything the family doesnt have from them. That will scare people from driving drunk.

Matthew
06-07-2016, 10:15 PM
Just heard on the news that there were calls to the police 30 minutes prior to him hitting the cyclists. Police were searching for this POS when he ran down the riders. He tried to flee on foot as his truck was disabled. Fortunately he did not get far. Absolutely disgusting.

ultraman6970
06-07-2016, 10:48 PM
They catched him then?

Uncle Jam's Army
06-07-2016, 11:04 PM
My heart hurts for my Michigan brothers.

txcid05
06-07-2016, 11:07 PM
What pissed me off about this was that the news coverage on it was crap, due to the Presidential Hooey. These sorts of things need to be forced into peoples brains. It's just about rampant and out of control, Our "Share the road" signs here in Texas certainly aren't enough.

Thoughts on my next ride will be with those affected.

Doug Fattic
06-07-2016, 11:09 PM
Kalamazoo is about 75 miles north of me. The reports of a child being hit has been changed to only adults. 4 other cyclists besides the 5 killed were also injured seriously. I have been nervously waiting for names to be released as several of my frame painting customers or frame building class students have come from there.

Matthew
06-07-2016, 11:15 PM
Yes he was caught. Tried to run from the scene on foot as his truck became disabled. Is in custody per the prosecutor. Male driver but not many other details about him. Witnesses said the riders were on the shoulder and were hit from behind. All were traveling in the same direction.

tuxbailey
06-07-2016, 11:58 PM
This is horrible.

Elefantino
06-08-2016, 12:02 AM
I wish there was a tipping point that would make people too afraid to drink and drive, but there isn't and won't be.

Similarly, there won't be a tipping point for texting and driving. Both are dangerous and irresponsible.

I grieve for the victims, and those to come, and hope I won't someday be one.

ahumblecycler
06-08-2016, 04:20 AM
My thoughts go out to all family and friends to the cyclists ... so sad. A 30 second news clip just showed on my local NBC news show (DC).

The comments serve to exemplify the constant tension we face when we cycle. Some days the tension is higher and sometimes!es lower, but it is always present. No amount of education or marketing or advocacy will eliminate it. It's a risk I acknowledge and accept.

tv_vt
06-08-2016, 07:29 AM
Our worst nightmare. So sad. Thoughts are with all of them.

berserk87
06-08-2016, 07:46 AM
I've already seen victim blaming in comments.

I didn't see the comments, thank goodness. Seemingly the comments section of any internet article brings the worst of our world out of the woodwork.

I can't recall a worse bike accident and I don't want to try. My heart is heavy.

zap
06-08-2016, 08:23 AM
Sad.

Saint Vitus
06-08-2016, 08:25 AM
Sad news, very sad.


I've already seen victim blaming in comments.

It would serve humanity if all news organizations just shut down the comments section, there is nothing to be served by having them. Nothing. You want to comment on some reportage? Fire off a letter to the editor, or write about it in your favorite internet interest group forum.

LegendRider
06-08-2016, 08:29 AM
I'm probably being too sensitive, but this paragraph from an article on the incident irritates me.

Paul Selden, director of road safety for the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club, knew of an organized group that planned to ride along North Westnedge Avenue in the area around at the time of the crash. He said the cyclists generally ride in a safe manner -- on the right side of the road and in single file.

tumbler
06-08-2016, 08:33 AM
This sucks.

bicycletricycle
06-08-2016, 08:39 AM
Hope those self driving cars get here faster.

R00td0wn
06-08-2016, 08:40 AM
Very sad.

soulspinner
06-08-2016, 08:51 AM
I'm probably being too sensitive, but this paragraph from an article in the incident irritates me.

Paul Selden, director of road safety for the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club, knew of an organized group that planned to ride along North Westnedge Avenue in the area around at the time of the crash. He said the cyclists generally ride in a safe manner -- on the right side of the road and in single file.

Ya me neither. Implying somehow they werent riding in a safe manner this time..................

Saint Vitus
06-08-2016, 09:16 AM
Ya me neither. Implying somehow they werent riding in a safe manner this time..................

I don't read that in the least. It's a simple statement meant to imply a standard practice, as if to allay any suspicion towards the cyclists doing otherwise.

crossjunkee
06-08-2016, 09:26 AM
Very sad indeed. From the pictures the road looks very nice with a good shoulder. The kind of rural road any cyclist would feel safe.

soulspinner
06-08-2016, 09:46 AM
I don't read that in the least. It's a simple statement meant to imply a standard practice, as if to allay any suspicion towards the cyclists doing otherwise.

I guess it ccould be the way you interpret it but I dont like the word generally, which does not mean always and therefore did it happen like that this time? Can you tell Im married to a lawyer?:)

avalonracing
06-08-2016, 10:45 AM
What's also sad/interesting is that if some sober dude in a truck drove by and shot five cyclists dead it would be all over the news nonstop. But if some drunk POS does it it gets a few seconds. Why? Maybe because it would piss off alcohol advertisers. Perhaps because it hits too close to home because we all know people who drink and drive (or do it ourselves) and don't want to call people out. Or perhaps it is just because we are immune to the much bigger threat of being killed by a drunk drivers than we are being shot by a psycho or blown up by people who "don't look like us".

zmudshark
06-08-2016, 11:04 AM
KALAMAZOO, MI — A group of bicyclists are planning a ride of silence Wednesday evening in memory of the bicyclists killed and injured in a crash Tuesday evening.

The ride starts at 6 p.m. at Arcadia Brewing Co., 701 E. Michigan Ave., Kalamazoo.

The ride is open to all riders as long as they have a helmet, according to the Facebook event. It will be a no-talking ride and hand signals will be used.

brownhound
06-08-2016, 11:23 AM
I saw it on the front page of the New York Times website. Unless a celebrity is involved, that's about as good a coverage as you're going to get for five deaths.

oldpotatoe
06-08-2016, 11:25 AM
KALAMAZOO, MI — A group of bicyclists are planning a ride of silence Wednesday evening in memory of the bicyclists killed and injured in a crash Tuesday evening.

The ride starts at 6 p.m. at Arcadia Brewing Co., 701 E. Michigan Ave., Kalamazoo.

The ride is open to all riders as long as they have a helmet, according to the Facebook event. It will be a no-talking ride and hand signals will be used.

Poor choice of start place, considering, if the driver was indeed DUI. IMHO

JStonebarger
06-08-2016, 11:29 AM
I'm probably being too sensitive, but this paragraph from an article on the incident irritates me.

Paul Selden, director of road safety for the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club, knew of an organized group that planned to ride along North Westnedge Avenue in the area around at the time of the crash. He said the cyclists generally ride in a safe manner -- on the right side of the road and in single file.

Single file is not a safe practice. It would be nice if bicycle advocates would quit perpetuating this myth.

redir
06-08-2016, 11:30 AM
I have not read anything that says the driver was drunk though it's been mentioned here a few times. Was he drunk or what? If he was not then mark my word he will get a mere slap on the wrist.

oldpotatoe
06-08-2016, 11:34 AM
I have not read anything that says the driver was drunk though it's been mentioned here a few times. Was he drunk or what? If he was not then mark my word he will get a mere slap on the wrist.

Sober, killed 5, leaving the scene...doubt it would be slap on wrist, but earlier he was reported driving erratically and they were looking for him.

AngryScientist
06-08-2016, 11:36 AM
i haven't seen any definitive reports on how this happened, but i would think prosecuting this guy should be pretty straightforward. hitting a single or pair of cyclists and knocking them off the road can be a grey area IMO, and much easier to classify as an "accident". there is no question that a vehicle must be driven recklessly and unresponsibly to kill 5 people and injure others. i think you lose the ability to call it an "accident" in this scenario. attempting to flee the scene seals the deal.

i'm sure the guy will find some sleezeball lawyer to spin some crazy story, but the facts are the facts. multiple deaths and an attempt to run. not an accident.

BobO
06-08-2016, 12:06 PM
i haven't seen any definitive reports on how this happened, but i would think prosecuting this guy should be pretty straightforward. hitting a single or pair of cyclists and knocking them off the road can be a grey area IMO, and much easier to classify as an "accident". there is no question that a vehicle must be driven recklessly and unresponsibly to kill 5 people and injure others. i think you lose the ability to call it an "accident" in this scenario. attempting to flee the scene seals the deal.

i'm sure the guy will find some sleezeball lawyer to spin some crazy story, but the facts are the facts. multiple deaths and an attempt to run. not an accident.

The guy in Tucson from earlier this year was under the influence at the time that he hit five and killed two cyclists stopped in a bike lane at a light. His claim through his lawyer is that it was an "accident" due to him having a head rush and losing control. If the wrong judge and jury get on the case, he may literally get away with murder. Personally, I agree with Bike Law that there is a need to redefine the term accident as it relates to incidents in traffic. Accidents are things like having a blowout and losing control of the car. Hitting a cyclist while being distracted for one reason or another is something different. In the latter the driver made a choice that resulted in harm to another, that driver should be held legally accountable for the damages caused, not have the severity of their actions dismissed as accidental.

zmudshark
06-08-2016, 12:09 PM
This was a crash, not an accident.

paredown
06-08-2016, 12:28 PM
The guy in Tucson from earlier this year was under the influence at the time that he hit five and killed two cyclists stopped in a bike lane at a light. His claim through his lawyer is that it was an "accident" due to him having a head rush and losing control. If the wrong judge and jury get on the case, he may literally get away with murder. Personally, I agree with Bike Law that there is a need to redefine the term accident as it relates to incidents in traffic. Accidents are things like having a blowout and losing control of the car. Hitting a cyclist while being distracted for one reason or another is something different. In the latter the driver made a choice that resulted in harm to another, that driver should be held legally accountable for the damages caused, not have the severity of their actions dismissed as accidental.

Similar story for the one in Cleveland earlier this year--the guy was texting, failed to yield to oncoming cyclists, killed two, and basically had the charges dismissed:
http://www.wave3.com/story/31318467/not-guilty-brecksville-driver-acquitted-in-deadly-cyclists-crash

As Bike Cleveland had to say about that one:
Throughout proceedings the defense attempted to complicate and distort a simple truth: two people are dead because of the reckless actions of another.

They achieved this by citing mitigating circumstances such as sun glare and repeatedly calling the crash an “accident.”

More insidious arguments were put forth that not only alleviated blame from Wolf, but shifted it to the deceased victims themselves. Were they wearing brightly colored clothes? Did they have lights? How fast were they going? These subversive tactics successfully undermined the fact that Wolf made an illegal left turn by failing to yield to oncoming traffic, and had he not made that turn, Billings and Lambert would still be alive, a fact Mr. Wolf admitted to during his testimony in the trial.

We vehemently disagree with the defense’s tactics because if we were to follow them to their logical conclusion, there would be a mandate that says all cars be painted a bright color and have daytime running lights to improve their visibility. The cyclists were riding within their rights and within the law when they were struck by Mr. Wolf. Mr. Wolf broke the law, not the cyclists. Wolf made an error in judgment when he made an illegal left turn, not the cyclists.

All too often the dangerous actions of people in cars are diminished, both through passive cultural means inherited over generations of car culture, and actively by those who attempt to shift the blame to the victims of crashes that could have been avoided if only people took the act of driving a 4000lbs vehicle capable of great destruction more seriously.

cinco
06-08-2016, 12:35 PM
I'm probably being too sensitive, but this paragraph from an article on the incident irritates me.

Paul Selden, director of road safety for the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club, knew of an organized group that planned to ride along North Westnedge Avenue in the area around at the time of the crash. He said the cyclists generally ride in a safe manner -- on the right side of the road and in single file.

What bothers me about this is it is basically a pre-emptive defense against the inevitable victim-blaming. Why is there even a fraction of the populace that will assume that the cyclists somehow brought this on themselves? #theAccused.

Sad. Sorry for all, even the pos behind the wheel. Sad.

Andy in Houston

BobO
06-08-2016, 12:39 PM
We vehemently disagree with the defense’s tactics because if we were to follow them to their logical conclusion, there would be a mandate that says all cars be painted a bright color and have daytime running lights to improve their visibility. The cyclists were riding within their rights and within the law when they were struck by Mr. Wolf. Mr. Wolf broke the law, not the cyclists. Wolf made an error in judgment when he made an illegal left turn, not the cyclists.

With a clearly guilty client, the defense is going to say whatever it can to obfuscate the truth of the matter. Such is the nature of lawyers. The problem is that traffic statutes do not differentiate the consequences of actions from genuine accidents. In the Tucson example, had the individual suffered a heart attack that caused him to lose control, that is very different from smoking a blunt and getting a head rush. One is deliberate action, the other is an unintended action, we need a statement in the traffic statutes that clarifies this difference. This will necessarily attach guilt to action.

velomonkey
06-08-2016, 12:44 PM
It is almost NEVER easy to prosecute a driver killing a cyclist and if we've gotten to this level then it's wicked sad. Look at the comments on the article . . . tons of hate for bike riders.

The deck is so stacked against us it's in the baseline of how people say "accident" when there was nothing accidental about it. The eyewitness who saw everything

“I saw a bunch of bikes hit the front of his truck and a couple of them flew,”

I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but what you saw, sir, was a truck hit a bunch of bikes - NOT - a bunch of bikes hit a truck. HUGE distinction. Oh and those 'bikes' were being operated by real-live human beings. You know, people. Words matter.

This thing sucks and what doubly sucks is I'm fully expecting to get lectured about how much bike riders stink.

zmudshark
06-08-2016, 12:51 PM
Two of the victims gave been identified, both women:

Five bicyclists are dead, four others injured after being hit by a truck.

We have learned that one of the people killed was Debbie Bradley. She is a former nurse with Gull Lake Community Schools and lived in Gull Lake.

Suzanne Sippel is another victim who was killed in the crash. Bradley and Sippel were friends. She worked for W.K. Kellogg Biological station and is from Augusta.

They were part of an informal club, known as 'the chain gang'.

cinco
06-08-2016, 12:54 PM
What bothers me about this is it is basically a pre-emptive defense against the inevitable victim-blaming. Why is there even a fraction of the populace that will assume that the cyclists somehow brought this on themselves? #theAccused.

Sad. Sorry for all, even the pos behind the wheel. Sad.

Andy in Houston

I'd like to add that though this case seems pretty clear, have to assume the driver innocent until proven guilty as well.

Matthew
06-08-2016, 01:23 PM
So far all of the local news reports I have seen say nothing about being under the influence. The prosecutor is being pretty tight lipped about the crime so far. It has had lots of coverage here locally. On a side note it seems this year drivers are extra angry at cyclists. I can't tell you how many times I have been yelled at or flipped off or honked at. Seems much more so than other years. I do my best to stay on the shoulder and obey traffic laws, etc... Doesn't seem to matter. To most drivers we are simply a pain in the ass and don't belong on the road. All this rage for what is typically an encounter that literally lasts just seconds. Crazy. My heart goes out to all those affected. Please be as safe as possible out there!!!! Matthew

Dead Man
06-08-2016, 01:28 PM
I've also been experiencing a perceived uptick in rage thrown at me, this year. I don't watch/read the news - I have to wonder if there's some new legal battle involving bike lanes and public funds going on in Portland or something (I don't even live in Portland)

Riding the Sauvie's Island loop a few evenings go, I get passed by a car and a 16 year old looking girl leans out the passenger window and screams "YOU'RE NOT A CAR, YOU ****ING FAGGOT!" at me. That was fun.

Usually it's just "get off the road!" or "fag!"

maybe she was extra drunk.

crashnburn
06-08-2016, 01:34 PM
Sad (and scary at the same time) to read stories like this...

BobO
06-08-2016, 01:34 PM
Riding the Sauvie's Island loop a few evenings go, I get passed by a car and a 16 year old looking girl leans out the passenger window and screams "YOU'RE NOT A CAR, YOU ****ING FAGGOT!" at me. That was fun.

Usually it's just "get off the road!" or "fag!"

maybe she was extra drunk.

Let's just chalk it up to this election cycle empowering exceptional stupidity and ignorance.

Elefantino
06-08-2016, 01:44 PM
I've also been experiencing a perceived uptick in rage thrown at me, this year. I don't watch/read the news - I have to wonder if there's some new legal battle involving bike lanes and public funds going on in Portland or something (I don't even live in Portland)
Could be a whole 'nother thread about the rise of American anger.

For whatever reason, cyclists are seen as counterculturish and that is offputiting to many, perhaps in the way that long hair and beards were seen in the 1960s. Regardless of the reason, I have felt more anger directed at me as a cyclist in supposedly liberal, enlightened and tolerant Northern California than I ever did while riding many more miles in supposedly conservative, sheltered and intolerant Northeast Florida.

GregL
06-08-2016, 01:51 PM
Let's just chalk it up to this election cycle empowering exceptional stupidity and ignorance.
Funny that you mentioned this. I've been waiting for the general angst of this election season to translate into more grumpy motorists. Thankfully, it hasn't happened (yet...) here in CNY. Maybe the locals here in Siberacuse are just happy that the snow has finally melted. For whatever reason, this has been the friendliest road cycling season I have seen in years. Lots of waves and smiles, but no deliberate, unfriendly motorist interactions. I'm also very glad to see leaders of the local SYR cycling community step up and ask riders to ride appropriately. This quote from an e-mail I received ahead of a charity ride this coming weekend:

"This is a ride, not a race…so let’s be ambassadors out there for the sport and mission. Ride it fast yes, but please stop at lights, stop signs and obey all traffic laws. Many times we will get other riders of questionable abilities mixing in with us, encourage them on how to ride properly and safely in the pack."

Back to the topic at hand: what happened in Kalamazoo was not an accident, it was very likely negligent homicide. Hopefully law enforcement will conduct a thorough investigation leading to the driver being charged to the fullest extent of the law.

Greg

zmudshark
06-08-2016, 02:38 PM
The victims:
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2016/06/these_are_the_victims_of_the_d.html#incart_big-photo

goonster
06-08-2016, 02:41 PM
16 year old looking girl leans out the passenger window and screams "YOU'RE NOT A CAR, YOU ****ING FAGGOT!"

Yep, undoubtedly this can be blamed on "economic anxiety" ;)

AngryScientist
06-08-2016, 02:41 PM
good heavens. the energy involved in this crash was tremendous:

http://image.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/width960/img/kalamazoogazette/photo/2016/06/08/-bbaf66339b7d6ea9.JPG

cinco
06-08-2016, 02:54 PM
I get passed by a car and a 16 year old looking girl leans out the passenger window and screams "YOU'RE NOT A CAR, YOU ****ING FAGGOT!"

Thanks, Obama!

OperaLover
06-08-2016, 02:55 PM
The photos are horrific. The damage to the bicycles, including folded alu crank arms tells the story. Whew! I will say a prayer on my commute home for the victims, their families, and for my own safety. I hope justice is served, but if Seattle is any indication, then probably not to the extent that it should.

Sad to say, but if you want to get away with muder, then make sure your victim is on a bike and your weapon a motor vehicle.

avalonracing
06-08-2016, 03:17 PM
An even more telling shot. I've seen vehicles slam into SUVs with less damage. And this truck doesn't have a soft crumple zone like you'll see on a Prius.

Matthew
06-08-2016, 03:27 PM
Holy F@#k that was a hell of an impact. Not a chance this tool even thought about slowing down.

BobO
06-08-2016, 03:30 PM
good heavens. the energy involved in this crash was tremendous:

http://image.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/width960/img/kalamazoogazette/photo/2016/06/08/-bbaf66339b7d6ea9.JPG

The amount of energy involved is striking. The thing that hits me hardest is that there was very clearly impact on the drivers side of the hood, and obviously after the passenger side was crushed in. That potentially means that the initial impact was on the passenger side and he crossed through the line of bikes

thwart
06-08-2016, 03:33 PM
File this under 'a picture is worth a thousand words'...

Sad.

http://image.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/width960/img/kalamazoogazette/photo/2016/06/08/-ca83de0754a2fa74.JPG

Matthew
06-08-2016, 03:38 PM
The amount of destruction is unbelievable. I hope those that perished never felt a thing. Just sickening.

mavic1010
06-08-2016, 03:42 PM
This is absolutely heartbreaking...

Shortsocks
06-08-2016, 03:43 PM
Thanks, Obama!

What?! Dude, Please shut up.

People are dead, children are dead our Peers and Fellow Cyclists are dead.

Please Pedal, Pun Intended, your Stupidity somewhere else. This is not the right place and this is an INCREDIBLY inappropriate time to do it.

Dead Man
06-08-2016, 03:56 PM
What?! Dude, Please shut up.

People are dead, children are dead our Peers and Fellow Cyclists are dead.

Please Pedal, Pun Intended, your Stupidity somewhere else. This is not the right place and this is an INCREDIBLY inappropriate time to do it.

I am not he, but I seriously doubt he's actually blaming Obama.

If that's even the point you're making (I guess I can't assume)

Shortsocks
06-08-2016, 04:08 PM
I am not he, but I seriously doubt he's actually blaming Obama.

If that's even the point you're making (I guess I can't assume)

LOL. I hope not. I cant stand Politics mixed with Cycling. But If was done Sarcastically he needed a "Dancing Banana" at least. Or maybe even a Picture of Obama Riding a Bicycle holding a Picture of a "Dancing Banana". :banana:

AJosiahK
06-08-2016, 04:11 PM
Awful news. Sad all around

Waldo
06-08-2016, 04:19 PM
Snip: ...I have felt more anger directed at me as a cyclist in supposedly liberal, enlightened and tolerant Northern California than I ever did while riding many more miles in supposedly conservative, sheltered and intolerant Northeast Florida.

I must be oblivious because I've noticed a near absence of stressful car encounters in my neck of the woods (Oakland-Berkeley, etc.) in the past six months, while riding more than I have in the past couple of years (~125 miles/week in 2016).

2metalhips
06-08-2016, 05:04 PM
This is sickening, so sad. I try to stick to the safest roads, gravel and singletrack as much as possible to stay safe.

Matthew
06-08-2016, 05:07 PM
Turd's name is Charles Pickett Jr. From Battle Creek. Truck was registered to his father.

crankles
06-08-2016, 05:58 PM
Snip:

I must be oblivious because I've noticed a near absence of stressful car encounters in my neck of the woods (Oakland-Berkeley, etc.) in the past six months, while riding more than I have in the past couple of years (~125 miles/week in 2016).

not my experience...and I live in 94619. I used to commute through 94618 on my way to 94608. close calls and agro honking parents driving kids to school was a weekly pccurance. Recently had a huge pickup buzz me in montclair of all place, then pull over and precede to yell at me to get off the road. Nice.

Dead Man
06-08-2016, 06:02 PM
Well one thing I have noticed absolutely correlates: rush hour riding brings more anger.

I HATE riding during rush hour; morning or evening.

velomonkey
06-08-2016, 06:38 PM
The victims:
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2016/06/these_are_the_victims_of_the_d.html#incart_big-photo

You all need to click on this link. Now. I promise you know someone just like the victims.

gemship
06-08-2016, 06:39 PM
Well one thing I have noticed absolutely correlates: rush hour riding brings more anger.

I HATE riding during rush hour; morning or evening.
Absolutely agree but that's if your riding for fitness/pleasure. Commuting on the other hand, be safe out there people! and really lots of luck on your side, hopefully.

Sorry to hear such of this tragedy.

velomonkey
06-08-2016, 06:49 PM
People on this site referred to these as "magical internet lines" when they are, in fact, a representation of the law . . . . . . . . . .

Please . . . . someone, blame the riders. Do it cause 1 is less than 5 . . . . please.

https://c5.staticflickr.com/2/1691/26445606060_76db8b4ca8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)IMG_0592 (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)

Waldo
06-08-2016, 08:59 PM
not my experience...and I live in 94619. I used to commute through 94618 on my way to 94608. close calls and agro honking parents driving kids to school was a weekly pccurance. Recently had a huge pickup buzz me in montclair of all place, then pull over and precede to yell at me to get off the road. Nice.

We must ride on different roads at different times of day, hence the variance in mileage. That, or I am truly oblivious and blissfully ignorant.

pro12tc
06-08-2016, 09:26 PM
This was a crash, not an accident.

This was a mass-murder

sw3759
06-08-2016, 11:17 PM
This was a mass-murder

agreed.so sickening to read about any type of auto related bike fatalities and so depressing as well especially after reading about the victims and the day they died happened to be on my birthday

chiasticon
06-09-2016, 12:04 AM
Similar story for the one in Cleveland earlier this year--the guy was texting, failed to yield to oncoming cyclists, killed two, and basically had the charges dismissed:
http://www.wave3.com/story/31318467/not-guilty-brecksville-driver-acquitted-in-deadly-cyclists-crashhit eight, killed two, two were in ICU for weeks. had ridden with one of the deceased a handful of times, and one of those who escaped unscathed several times. know the road well and ride it often. sun may well have been a factor but moreso was an inattentive texting driver who broadsided eight people.

sat through listening to said unscathed rider (who held the victim mentioned above as he took his last breaths) address our local club this spring. he hasn't ridden since the accident (eight months now). his main message to us, after talking to the jury: they don't care that the victims had lights on and bright clothing and were following the law. they have all had enough experiences with cyclists to believe that we're all out there riding however we want and the fault of the accident lies solely with the riders (even though they were all broadsided by a texting driver). whatever you do, please don't perpetuate this image. sometime, you may do it in front of a future juror tasked with delivering justice to someone who killed you, or one of your friends.

take that for what you will. victim blaming or future potential victim blaming, maybe. either way, it's unlikely justice will be served for these victims, just as it wasn't this past year in Cleveland.

regardless, thoughts and prayers with the victims' families. absolutely horrific stuff.

Elefantino
06-09-2016, 12:47 AM
Newschannel 3 spoke to ... the homeowners who saw him plow through their yard right before the fatal crash.
The homeowners say the truck came within inches of their window, at the same time they're usually outside gardening.
Mary and Bill Leveque are still in shock that police say the man who barreled through their yard last night killed five bicyclists and injured four others just moments later on Westnedge.
"We came outside and looked down the road and he was gone," they said.
The truck clipped the tree, ran over a bike, and then careened over their rock garden.

Then they called 911.

Too bad no authorities got to this man first.

Fivethumbs
06-09-2016, 01:07 AM
I am wondering if the guy just lost his mind and did this deliberately. Like the person who walked into a McDonalds with a gun and just started shooting random strangers.

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 05:34 AM
I saw the driver's FB page. He sure didn't do himself any favors.

pro12tc
06-09-2016, 05:49 AM
I saw the driver's FB page. He sure didn't do himself any favors.

What was on his FB page?

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 05:59 AM
https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage

shovelhd
06-09-2016, 06:50 AM
Wow. I can't believe that's still up.

rustychisel
06-09-2016, 07:06 AM
https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage

It's gone now. Got a screenshot?

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 07:23 AM
Still up here, but this is a sample:

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12472388_952762041481975_1068270590642922091_n.jpg ?oh=fd965f7559e35610ff9c07dd86f7bac6&oe=5805F36E

Most of it is not suitable for the forum.

William
06-09-2016, 07:39 AM
I saw it, it said a lot about the guys mindset. My guess/opinion that there was an initial incident, realized he was screwed, and he made the decision to "go off".






William

avalonracing
06-09-2016, 07:44 AM
It's gone now. Got a screenshot?

It's not gone.
Warning this FB page is a caricature of a caricature of a caricature and might make you wonder how we all live in the same country/world:

https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage?__mref=message_bubble

Onno
06-09-2016, 07:50 AM
It's not gone.
Warning this FB page is a caricature of a caricature of a caricature and might make you wonder how we all live in the same country/world:

https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage?__mref=message_bubble

Completely agree. One of the more depressing things I've seen in a while. And supports the idea that he did this in a rage of some kind.

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 08:00 AM
More info:
Newschannel 3 spoke to Pickett's family Wednesday, and the homeowners who saw him plow through their yard right before the fatal crash.

The homeowners say the truck came within inches of their window, at the same time they're usually outside gardening.

Mary and Bill Leveque are still in shock that police say the man who barreled through their yard last night killed five bicyclists and injured four others just moments later on Westnedge.

"We came outside and looked down the road and he was gone," they said.

The truck clipped the tree, ran over a bike, and then careened over their rock garden.

rustychisel
06-09-2016, 08:41 AM
It's not gone.
Warning this FB page is a caricature of a caricature of a caricature and might make you wonder how we all live in the same country/world:

https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage?__mref=message_bubble

Thanks. Get a FB message saying content not available [to my location, perhaps].

chiasticon
06-09-2016, 09:27 AM
donation link: http://www.kalamazoostrongorganization.org/

Anarchist
06-09-2016, 09:39 AM
The irony .....

bcroslin
06-09-2016, 09:41 AM
My heart goes out to these people's families. After looking at the suspect's FB page I think it's safe to say he's unstable and miserable.

There's a lot of anger and frustration out there right now and we really do put our lives in other peoples hands when riding on the road.

Elefantino
06-09-2016, 09:49 AM
The same Charles Pickett Jr. had a DUI in Tennessee five years ago.

(He was recently divorced, according to state records there. He came home to Michigan to live with his mother and father; the latter has dementia.)

Is it too draconian to revoke someone's license for life if they have a DUI? Yes, I know that people will then just drive unlicensed, but this is just maddening.

Germany_chris
06-09-2016, 10:10 AM
That was my home town..

malcolm
06-09-2016, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Elefantino;1987662]The same Charles Pickett Jr. had a DUI in Tennessee five years ago.

(He was recently divorced, according to state records there. He came home to Michigan to live with his mother and father; the latter has dementia.)

Is it too draconian to revoke someone's license for life if they have a DUI? Yes, I know that people will then just drive unlicensed, but this is just maddening.[/QUOT

I would say yes, it's too draconian. Everyone screws up. There is also a difference between and DUI and a DUI with death and injuries involved, even if it was just luck. Lots of folks get DUIs that while impaired probably and not a real menace, but more importantly do they learn from their mistakes??

If there is a clear pattern and in the case of DUI I would say twice establishes a pattern then lifetime loss of driving privileges might be in order. I think there always needs to be an avenue for redemption although the hoops need to be serious.

While we don't know the whole story here from what I've seen this guy seems a dangerous mix of angry, uneducated dumbass and probably mental instability mixed I suspect with ETOH and or other intoxicants.

cinco
06-09-2016, 11:42 AM
LOL. I hope not. I cant stand Politics mixed with Cycling. But If was done Sarcastically he needed a "Dancing Banana" at least. Or maybe even a Picture of Obama Riding a Bicycle holding a Picture of a "Dancing Banana". :banana:

Sorry. Yes. Sarcasm. And, in the context of 2 posts before it, not even addressing the horrible incident in MI. Comments like mine get too easily misconstrued in an online forum. So, probably not the best judgement on my part to try levity. Never meant to offend. Mea culpa. Insert banana.

Andy in Houston

Anarchist
06-09-2016, 12:14 PM
[QUOTE=Elefantino;1987662]The same Charles Pickett Jr. had a DUI in Tennessee five years ago.

(He was recently divorced, according to state records there. He came home to Michigan to live with his mother and father; the latter has dementia.)

Is it too draconian to revoke someone's license for life if they have a DUI? Yes, I know that people will then just drive unlicensed, but this is just maddening.[/QUOT

I would say yes, it's too draconian. Everyone screws up. There is also a difference between and DUI and a DUI with death and injuries involved, even if it was just luck. Lots of folks get DUIs that while impaired probably and not a real menace, but more importantly do they learn from their mistakes??

If there is a clear pattern and in the case of DUI I would say twice establishes a pattern then lifetime loss of driving privileges might be in order. I think there always needs to be an avenue for redemption although the hoops need to be serious.

While we don't know the whole story here from what I've seen this guy seems a dangerous mix of angry, uneducated dumbass and probably mental instability mixed I suspect with ETOH and or other intoxicants.

http://www.chron.com/houston/article/10th-DWI-gets-Texas-man-life-sentence-in-jail-6077640.php

malcolm
06-09-2016, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=malcolm;1987709]

http://www.chron.com/houston/article/10th-DWI-gets-Texas-man-life-sentence-in-jail-6077640.php

Not sure why I'm mentioned at the top. I was speaking of DUI in general terms not of this specific person. Assuming he is proven to be intoxicated and not just deranged and angry he now has two, one with death and injury and should lose his privilege of legally driving among us. I do think he should have a possibility of reform but the bar should be quite high and with the results of his most recent event I'm not sure he should even be allowed to roam among us on foot.

The linked article while I suspect extreme is not unheard of and causes me to question the sanity of society as a whole.

avalonracing
06-09-2016, 12:28 PM
Thanks. Get a FB message saying content not available [to my location, perhaps].

Just a bunch of hateful misanthropic and probably the most disgustingly sexist and misogynistic posts I've ever seen. (And of course a bunch of selfies of him wearing a cross around his neck).

About the misogynistic stuff, I'm not uptight (by any stretch of the imagination) but I've never seen such a compilation of images, quotes and remarks about women that are so degrading. Any woman who would have a conversation with this POS after seeing his FB page needs therapy.

Gsinill
06-09-2016, 01:04 PM
...Any woman who would have a conversation with this POS after seeing his FB page needs therapy.

+1
By quickly scrolling to his "friends" list, I'd estimate there are about 200 right there that fall into that category.
Mind boggling how any woman would not defriend this guy after receiving the first update for his FB page. :confused:

BobO
06-09-2016, 01:44 PM
Just a bunch of hateful misanthropic and probably the most disgustingly sexist and misogynistic posts I've ever seen. (And of course a bunch of selfies of him wearing a cross around his neck).

About the misogynistic stuff, I'm not uptight (by any stretch of the imagination) but I've never seen such a compilation of images, quotes and remarks about women that are so degrading. Any woman who would have a conversation with this POS after seeing his FB page needs therapy.

Not to defend his stupidity, but to be fair, a lot of men and women can get awfully hateful toward and entire gender before, during and after a divorce. Some of them are even dumb enough to put such things online. In time most of those people come back to earth and we can forgive their momentary lack of judgement because we understand they've been hurt. This guy is different as he clearly handled the grieving process pretty damn badly and did actual harm to others.

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 02:46 PM
Charles Pickett Jr. faces five counts of second-degree murder for the bicyclists that died in the crash, and four counts of reckless driving causing serious impairment for the bicyclists injured in the crash. He could face up to life in prison if convicted of murder.


There is a press conference scheduled for 4PM

Anarchist
06-09-2016, 02:51 PM
Charles Pickett Jr. faces five counts of second-degree murder for the bicyclists that died in the crash, and four counts of reckless driving causing serious impairment for the bicyclists injured in the crash. He could face up to life in prison if convicted of murder.


There is a press conference scheduled for 4PM

Let's see what it pleads down to.

BobO
06-09-2016, 03:05 PM
Let's see what it pleads down to.

I've got a shotgun, a shovel and five acres behind the house. :p

Seriously though, my guess is he won't breathe free air until he's a very old man. There's a pretty good outrage going and not just in the cycling community.

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 03:14 PM
Interesting press conference going on. I think justice may be served, eventually.

The asshole is unable to be arraigned in person, because of medical conditions that may resolved by tomorrow.

Matthew
06-09-2016, 03:29 PM
Living here in Michigan I have seen lots of coverage. There is a lot of outrage here. It has been the first story on every newscast since the incident. I think this prosecutor is going to do everything he can to hammer this guy. Even our governor has chimed in, for what that is worth. Hopefully this will have a lasting impact, but I have my doubts. Out of sight out of mind will take over eventually and motorists will go back to hating us. Sad.

staggerwing
06-09-2016, 03:33 PM
There can be no true justice. Five completely innocent people lost their lives because some POS was having a bad day. Going to take a small dump truck full of tax dollars to convict this guy, and a fewl larger dump trucks full, to keep him in jail for a long time.

I also don't see how anyone can look at themselves in the mirror and try to blame the cyclists for being in the way. By all accounts, the perp was going off half-cocked, and it just happened to be a group of riders that fell upon his cross-hairs. Could have just as easily been almost anyone else.

redir
06-09-2016, 03:42 PM
https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage

White trash redneck pig.

saab2000
06-09-2016, 03:47 PM
I lived in Michigan for six years and enjoyed it for the most part more than I expected. But I did come across a motorist who seemed capable of this kind of action. It was near Grand Rapids (a good riding area FWIW) and this particular driver met me at a 4-way stop and let me have it verbally. There was no provocation and no conflict at all. He just didn't want to see a bike rider on a public road and told me in no uncertain terms. Had he attempted to overtake me I don't want to know what might have occurred.

There were two other incidents while living there which left an impression. The overwhelming amount of my time on a bike there was incident free. Like everywhere. But there were a few outliers.

Can anyone familiar with law tell why this isn't First Degree murder? Or why isn't it some kind even stronger federal charge?

BobO
06-09-2016, 03:55 PM
Can anyone familiar with law tell why this isn't First Degree murder?

First degree murder is planned in advance.


Or why isn't it some kind even stronger federal charge?

Law enforcement is for the most part local rather than federal. While federal is creeping into some areas, murder is almost always a local charge.

shovelhd
06-09-2016, 04:10 PM
What is he being charged with?

Dead Man
06-09-2016, 04:28 PM
What is he being charged with?

5 counts of Murder 2, handful of counts of vehicular negligence resulting in injury (or however michigan writes it)

makoti
06-09-2016, 04:33 PM
What is he being charged with?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-charged-murder-hit-run-deaths-five-michigan-bicyclists-n589211

shovelhd
06-09-2016, 04:37 PM
So no DUI?

zmudshark
06-09-2016, 05:49 PM
So no DUI?

Not yet, but the prosecutor seemed confident of the charges, so far.

steveandbarb1
06-09-2016, 07:34 PM
Mark my words, 1 year max. Guy that worked in same building I did back around 1990 going through red light killing another person, he was back driving in a few years.


Why can't we have a judicial systems that also adds "do what is right".

Matthew
06-09-2016, 07:41 PM
I think he will do more time than a year. Vehicular Manslaughter here calls for 7-15 years. This is 5 counts of second degree murder, all punishable up to life in prison. Even if he pleas I think it will be longer. At least I hope. Hope he eventually gets sent to the prison I work at. I will have no problem giving him a piece of my mind.

sitzmark
06-09-2016, 07:55 PM
So no DUI?

References to intoxication were publicly "walked back" by police and city officials almost immediately(at least those I read/saw) - in a deliberate way - and for sure by the following morning. Witnesses also came forward to report no "obvious signs of intoxication". Little else was released regarding details, but no obvious intoxication was repeatedly noted. The door was left open for above limit BAC or abused substances, but not falling down drunk.

Actually that plays into the more serious charge of murder (2nd degree) than a manslaughter charge. No arguing impaired judgement, passion, etc. Strictly actions taken that any reasonable person would expect to be driven by intent to harm/kill or borne of extreme disregard for life ... murder. A murder conviction almost always leads to a greater sentence than manslaughter. Most DUI cases are prosecuted as manslaughter. Might be why authorities moved so quickly to dismiss the growing narrative surrounding DUI.

mtb_frk
06-09-2016, 08:12 PM
http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/charlie-charles-e-pickett-jr-battle-creek-kalamazoo-bicycle-bike-crash-driver-suspect-name-victims-photos-facebook/

tuxbailey
06-09-2016, 08:32 PM
http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/charlie-charles-e-pickett-jr-battle-creek-kalamazoo-bicycle-bike-crash-driver-suspect-name-victims-photos-facebook/


From the article:

"WWMT-TT went to Pickett’s home for comment on Wednesday, but said the family threatened to chase a reporter and cameraman off their property with a front end loader and then pursued the news crew in a car after the verbal altercation."

Dead Man
06-09-2016, 09:32 PM
From the article:

"WWMT-TT went to Pickett’s home for comment on Wednesday, but said the family threatened to chase a reporter and cameraman off their property with a front end loader and then pursued the news crew in a car after the verbal altercation."

Maybe a little anger streak in that family.

ultraman6970
06-09-2016, 11:15 PM
I bet his lawyer will get him out of this one because the MOFO has mental problem, like if it was that hard to pay for a doctor to say he has mental problems and that jail for life is not recommended because he was not sane with this happened.

Win win for the lawyer and the doctor. Case closed :/

chiasticon
06-09-2016, 11:26 PM
I lived in Michigan for six years and enjoyed it for the most part more than I expected.fwiw, my wife and I travel to Michigan frequently and overwhelmingly I've had great experiences riding there. in fact I'd say it's generally better than at home, owing largely to more rural communities and open roads where they don't have to slow down and wait through traffic to get around you, just keep the same speed and move their hand a few inches to the left.

anyway, just wanted to say this a-hole doesn't represent the drivers of the state well, who have always been kind to me. highly recommend visiting, btw; beautiful and highly underrated state!

Don49
06-10-2016, 12:04 AM
I bet his lawyer will get him out of this one because the MOFO has mental problem, Agreed. Almost certainly there will be a defense of mental/medical issues in this case.

avalonracing
06-10-2016, 07:45 AM
Maybe a little anger streak in that family.

There are SOOO many angry people out there in general. Last night I saw a FB comment on a friends post with a picture of Hillary and a quote. Some guy wrote "She needs a 2X4 to the head". I clicked on that guy's link and it's all these pictures of him with his family doing family things. Where in the hell does this kind of anger come from? What would make someone say that they want to hit a 68 year-old woman in the head with a board? Why do so many let this anger in their friends go on without questioning the person about their anger and trying to help them work it out. Anyway, I didn't know the guy so I just wrote "Nice Hate there" (family man).

redir
06-10-2016, 07:48 AM
Mark my words, 1 year max. Guy that worked in same building I did back around 1990 going through red light killing another person, he was back driving in a few years.


Why can't we have a judicial systems that also adds "do what is right".

I posted earlier that he will get a slap on the wrist and I still stand by it. One year BTW is a slap on the wrist. AL it takes is one like Judge Aaron Persky and he walks.

From the article:

"WWMT-TT went to Pickett’s home for comment on Wednesday, but said the family threatened to chase a reporter and cameraman off their property with a front end loader and then pursued the news crew in a car after the verbal altercation."

Read an article yesterday where his mom said he was such a kind and gentle man and would never hurt anyone. Apparently he has a sister too. I wonder if they follow him on Facebook? What kind of family upbringing fosters that kind of person? Disgusting.

Having said that, looking at the damage to that car I can't imagine someone could be so stupid as to intentionally hit a group of cyclists and think they can get away with it... That will be defense #1. The, 'I didn't even see them' defense.

ultraman6970
06-10-2016, 08:21 AM
Family that doesnt care about their siblings will say whatever to "help" instead of tell it as it is, that could be more helpfull for everybody, even the victims.

Insanity will be the way out for this idiot, a few months in a clinic and good to go.

Never understood why judges dont do the right thing in cases like this.

oldpotatoe
06-10-2016, 08:53 AM
Family that doesnt care about their siblings will say whatever to "help" instead of tell it as it is, that could be more helpfull for everybody, even the victims.

Insanity will be the way out for this idiot, a few months in a clinic and good to go.

Never understood why judges dont do the right thing in cases like this.

It'll be a jury, not a judge, along with a public defender. If found insane(really hard, btw), he will be committed probably for the rest of his life. But I think he will die in jail. He will not find leniency just because he hit people on bikes, as has been implied. Be angry, as I am too but reopen after he is sentenced, IMHO

saab2000
06-10-2016, 09:00 AM
It'll be a jury, not a judge, along with a public defender. If found insane(really hard, btw), he will be committed probably for the rest of his life. But I think he will die in jail. He will not find leniency just because he hit people on bikes, as has been implied. Be angry, as I am too but reopen after he is sentenced, IMHO

AFAIK, juries convict but don't usually give sentences. This varies from state to state though and I thought then only in death penalty cases.

There are cases of judges giving ludicrously lenient sentences in some cases where bikes were involved or charges are plead down to a 'failure to yield' type of thing, involving a minor fine.

That likely won't apply here but I've heard of cases that make your jaw drop, seemingly because they involved a cyclist.

redir
06-10-2016, 10:40 AM
I still cannot get any information on this. What are the known details. Last article I read said that they didn't confirm DUI. They didn't confirm intent etc...

The only thing they did confirm is that he hit and ran which is a felony but I have seen people walk from that too.

Jury? Oh goodness. A jury full of people who hate when their roads are blocked by cyclists. A judge, a prosecutor, even the bailiff, they all hate when their roads are blocked.

unterhausen
06-10-2016, 10:43 AM
apparently the prosecutor didn't feel that way given the charges.

Onno
06-10-2016, 10:44 AM
I'm with oldpotatoe. There's far too much prejudging going on here of the legal system, certainty about what will happen in this case, and what has happened in others. I take the fact that he has already been charged with 5 counts of murder as a very positive sign.

Rada
06-10-2016, 10:52 AM
AFAIK, juries convict but don't usually give sentences. This varies from state to state though and I thought then only in death penalty cases.

There are cases of judges giving ludicrously lenient sentences in some cases where bikes were involved or charges are plead down to a 'failure to yield' type of thing, involving a minor fine.

That likely won't apply here but I've heard of cases that make your jaw drop, seemingly because they involved a cyclist.

Happens all the time. The latest getting a lot of attention is the Stanford rape case where a star swimmer violently raped a woman and was found guilty on three counts and given 6 months in jail and 3 months probation by the judge.

parris
06-10-2016, 11:51 AM
Some of the things that could very well factor in the case is the damage and witnesses that will be called before he ran the cyclists down. "Regular" people may not care one way or another as far as cyclists go. But retired people who's property was damaged along with the 911 calls before the POS ran down the cyclists could very well show things in a light that "regular" people can relate to. "holy s**t That could've been our house, garden, and tree that got damaged". Just a thought.

Dead Man
06-10-2016, 12:14 PM
I think some of you guys are underestimating people in general. Yea, feels like society thinks we're a nuisance and doesn't care as much about us, or maybe even thinks we're partially to blame just for being out there playing in traffic on our toys... But this transcends "cyclists." This dude plowed into a large group of peaceful human beings, killing 5 and injuring many more. He's not getting a ****ing year sentence.. Are you kidding me? He's going away.

zmudshark
06-10-2016, 12:22 PM
There was already a bi-partisan bill introduced into the dysfunctional MI legislature to increase the penalties for hitting a 'vulnerable roadway user', like a bicyclist.

Still waiting on the arraignment of the asshole, though.

redir
06-10-2016, 01:13 PM
I think some of you guys are underestimating people in general. Yea, feels like society thinks we're a nuisance and doesn't care as much about us, or maybe even thinks we're partially to blame just for being out there playing in traffic on our toys... But this transcends "cyclists." This dude plowed into a large group of peaceful human beings, killing 5 and injuring many more. He's not getting a ****ing year sentence.. Are you kidding me? He's going away.

I get that and I hope I am wrong but I keep hearing people say that he 'plowed' into a group of cyclists like he did it on purpose but I read nothing in the news that confirms any intent or drug use. If he "didn't see them" then he's guilty of a hit and run accident. If he had not run then it would be just like any other accident on the road where some one dies. Who goes to jail when they are at fault in a car wreck accident that kills some one? Not many unless they can prove some sort of negligence, which they may be able to in this case since his erratic driving was reported.

I don't know? But the story is not clear in the news yet unless I missed it.

Dead Man
06-10-2016, 01:20 PM
Well I guess we're all victims of our own assumptions.

Fact of the matter is he could have been in diabetic shock, and isn't guilty of ANY crime at all. But if that were the case, I don't think he would be charged with a dozen felonies.

I did see this bit of wonderful news right after I posted the last comment, though.... http://abc7.com/news/chp-says-camarillo-woman-distracted-by-phone-kills-2-people-gets-misdemeanor/1378012/

Dead Man
06-10-2016, 01:21 PM
One of 'em wasn't even a cyclist. At least not our variety.

bikingshearer
06-10-2016, 03:24 PM
hit eight, killed two, two were in ICU for weeks. had ridden with one of the deceased a handful of times, and one of those who escaped unscathed several times. know the road well and ride it often. sun may well have been a factor but moreso was an inattentive texting driver who broadsided eight people.

sat through listening to said unscathed rider (who held the victim mentioned above as he took his last breaths) address our local club this spring. he hasn't ridden since the accident (eight months now). his main message to us, after talking to the jury: they don't care that the victims had lights on and bright clothing and were following the law. they have all had enough experiences with cyclists to believe that we're all out there riding however we want and the fault of the accident lies solely with the riders (even though they were all broadsided by a texting driver). whatever you do, please don't perpetuate this image. sometime, you may do it in front of a future juror tasked with delivering justice to someone who killed you, or one of your friends.

take that for what you will. victim blaming or future potential victim blaming, maybe. either way, it's unlikely justice will be served for these victims, just as it wasn't this past year in Cleveland.

regardless, thoughts and prayers with the victims' families. absolutely horrific stuff.

The bolded quote above is the scariest thing related to cycling I have ever read. It means that there truly is a significant segment of the general population who think we are all asking for it. Full stop. End of discussion. It is a conclusion that will be very hard to change because there are enough riders out there (and I mean riders of all stripes and persuasions who ride for all kinds of reasons) who do exactly the things that make drivers think we are all a bunch of entitled elitist pricks.

You can say that people shouldn't fell that way. I agree. But they do think that way, and we had better face that reality even as we try to change that. And the most important way we can change that is to stop blasting through stop signs and traffic lights, ride three+ abreast on narrow roads, or any of the other "stupid cyclist tricks" we all know about and shun other cyclists who do.

One part of the equation that is absolutely on us is for us to step out of our comfort zones and start calling out people whose behavior puts all of us at risk. Group ride leaders (when there is one) need to be prepared to tell riders in no uncertain terms that agro-riding and agsinst-the-law riding will not be tolerated and tell them they are no longer welcome if they refuse to get the message. Otherwise, we are complicit in handing bicycle-haters what clearly is the most powerful thing that convinced them they are right; anecdotal evidence.

And no, I am not "blaming the victims" here, not in this particular instance or in general. And no, I am not saying that the "all you damn bicycles break the law and do whatever you want" argument is factually, legally or morally correct. But I am saying we have to stop engaging in behavior that perpetuates the Cleveland jury's biases. The lesson that jury taught us is that our image in too many circles is one of not being worthy of the protection of the law. And we need to change that. We do it through education programs. We do it through political action. We do it by teaching kids what the law is as it applies to using a bike in public and reinforcing those lessons. Most importantly, we set the example.

The fact is, we undermine all of our good efforts if we act down to the stereotypes that people like the Cleveland jury have of us and if we silently put up with others who do. We have to stop being our own worst enemies.

BobO
06-10-2016, 03:39 PM
WI did see this bit of wonderful news right after I posted the last comment, though.... http://abc7.com/news/chp-says-camarillo-woman-distracted-by-phone-kills-2-people-gets-misdemeanor/1378012/

From the posted article;

Hill's attorney said she was not on her phone at the time of the crash, but just prior to it.

"Rachel maintains and the evidence supports that she was on her phone a minute or two prior to the accident, but not actually at the time of the accident itself," Doug Ridley, Hill's attorney said.

So the claim here is that the phone did not distract her and cause her to hit the cyclist. But, the facts of the matter are that she did hit the cyclist and motorcyclist. What gives? Her level of attention is damaged for minutes after she puts the phone down? Was she trying to shove it in just the right pocket in her purse? ****ing with the radio? She did kill two people, so,...

chiasticon
06-10-2016, 03:41 PM
I did see this bit of wonderful news right after I posted the last comment, though.... http://abc7.com/news/chp-says-camarillo-woman-distracted-by-phone-kills-2-people-gets-misdemeanor/1378012/exactly. like was already mentioned, the dude in Cleveland broadsided eight people; they were on the opposite side of the road passing a street he was turning into. got zero. and yes, he was originally charged with counts of vehicular manslaughter. so the fact they're throwing five counts of murder out there doesn't convince me. I absolutely hope I'm 100% wrong.

GregL
06-10-2016, 03:45 PM
The bolded quote above is the scariest thing related to cycling I have ever read. It means that there truly is a significant segment of the general population who think we are all asking for it. Full stop. End of discussion. It is a conclusion that will be very hard to change because there are enough riders out there (and I mean riders of all stripes and persuasions who ride for all kinds of reasons) who do exactly the things that make drivers think we are all a bunch of entitled elitist pricks.

You can say that people shouldn't fell that way. I agree. But they do think that way, and we had better face that reality even as we try to change that. And the most important way we can change that is to stop blasting through stop signs and traffic lights, ride three+ abreast on narrow roads, or any of the other "stupid cyclist tricks" we all know about and shun other cyclists who do.

One part of the equation that is absolutely on us is for us to step out of our comfort zones and start calling out people whose behavior puts all of us at risk. Group ride leaders (when there is one) need to be prepared to tell riders in no uncertain terms that agro-riding and agsinst-the-law riding will not be tolerated and tell them they are no longer welcome if they refuse to get the message. Otherwise, we are complicit in handing bicycle-haters what clearly is the most powerful thing that convinced them they are right; anecdotal evidence.

And no, I am not "blaming the victims" here, not in this particular instance or in general. And no, I am not saying that the "all you damn bicycles break the law and do whatever you want" argument is factually, legally or morally correct. But I am saying we have to stop engaging in behavior that perpetuates the Cleveland jury's biases. The lesson that jury taught us is that our image in too many circles is one of not being worthy of the protection of the law. And we need to change that. We do it through education programs. We do it through political action. We do it by teaching kids what the law is as it applies to using a bike in public and reinforcing those lessons. Most importantly, we set the example.

The fact is, we undermine all of our good efforts if we act down to the stereotypes that people like the Cleveland jury have of us and if we silently put up with others who do. We have to stop being our own worst enemies.
Thank you for your insightful post! I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Over time as I have made a concerted effort to be a more effective, law-abiding cyclist, I have noticed my interactions with motorists have become much more pleasant. There will always be some drivers with bad attitudes, and sadly some like Mr. Pickett who are dangerous to all humanity. However, IMO the more that cyclists actually follow the rules of the road, the safer ALL of us will be.

Greg

makoti
06-10-2016, 03:46 PM
Well I guess we're all victims of our own assumptions.

Fact of the matter is he could have been in diabetic shock, and isn't guilty of ANY crime at all. But if that were the case, I don't think he would be charged with a dozen felonies.

I did see this bit of wonderful news right after I posted the last comment, though.... http://abc7.com/news/chp-says-camarillo-woman-distracted-by-phone-kills-2-people-gets-misdemeanor/1378012/

I'm confused how manslaughter can be a misdemeanor??

BobO
06-10-2016, 04:05 PM
However, IMO the more that cyclists actually follow the rules of the road, the safer ALL of us will be.

Quite a lot of cyclists and motorists have an incorrect understanding and assumptions about those rules. Quite a lot of conflict emanates from that alone.

astrov
06-10-2016, 04:10 PM
I'm confused how manslaughter can be a misdemeanor??

Good question. Because it is punishable by less than one year in the county jail. Who wants to bet that this little trollop will do time served + probation, and then expunge her record in just a few years? Ugh. And yet it's not going to get anywhere near the publicity or outrage of the Stanford rape case.

Cal Penal Code: (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199)

192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to a felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which
might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution
and circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts
committed in the driving of a vehicle.
(c) Vehicular--
(1) Except as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 191.5,
driving a vehicle in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting
to a felony, and with gross negligence; or driving a vehicle in the
commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful
manner, and with gross negligence.
(2) Driving a vehicle in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to a felony, but without gross negligence; or driving a
vehicle in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death,
in an unlawful manner, but without gross negligence.
(3) Driving a vehicle in connection with a violation of paragraph
(3) of subdivision (a) of Section 550, where the vehicular collision
or vehicular accident was knowingly caused for financial gain and
proximately resulted in the death of any person. This paragraph does
not prevent prosecution of a defendant for the crime of murder.
(d) This section shall not be construed as making any homicide in
the driving of a vehicle punishable that is not a proximate result of
the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, or of
the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an
unlawful manner.
(e) "Gross negligence," as used in this section, does not prohibit
or preclude a charge of murder under Section 188 upon facts
exhibiting wantonness and a conscious disregard for life to support a
finding of implied malice, or upon facts showing malice, consistent
with the holding of the California Supreme Court in People v. Watson
(1981) 30 Cal.3d 290.
(f) (1) For purposes of determining sudden quarrel or heat of
passion pursuant to subdivision (a), the provocation was not
objectively reasonable if it resulted from the discovery of,
knowledge about, or potential disclosure of the victim's actual or
perceived gender, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual
orientation, including under circumstances in which the victim made
an unwanted nonforcible romantic or sexual advance towards the
defendant, or if the defendant and victim dated or had a romantic or
sexual relationship. Nothing in this section shall preclude the jury
from considering all relevant facts to determine whether the
defendant was in fact provoked for purposes of establishing
subjective provocation.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "gender" includes a person's
gender identity and gender-related appearance and behavior
regardless of whether that appearance or behavior is associated with
the person's gender as determined at birth.

193. (a) Voluntary manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment in
the state prison for 3, 6, or 11 years.
(b) Involuntary manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment
pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for two, three, or four
years.
(c) Vehicular manslaughter is punishable as follows:
(1) A violation of paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 192
is punishable either by imprisonment in the county jail for not more
than one year or by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four,
or six years.
(2) A violation of paragraph (2) of subdivision (c) of Section 192
is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than
one year.
(3) A violation of paragraph (3) of subdivision (c) of Section 192
is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for 4, 6, or 10
years.

flydhest
06-11-2016, 05:19 AM
Happens all the time. The latest getting a lot of attention is the Stanford rape case where a star swimmer violently raped a woman and was found guilty on three counts and given 6 months in jail and 3 months probation by the judge.



This

flydhest
06-11-2016, 05:23 AM
Thank you for your insightful post! I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Over time as I have made a concerted effort to be a more effective, law-abiding cyclist, I have noticed my interactions with motorists have become much more pleasant. There will always be some drivers with bad attitudes, and sadly some like Mr. Pickett who are dangerous to all humanity. However, IMO the more that cyclists actually follow the rules of the road, the safer ALL of us will be.



Greg



What you are missing is that the people in the incident that started the thread were law abiding. More importantly for me, the onus should not be on the defenseless. Follow the law or else you deserve to get killed by a driver is a strange attitude, especially since most car drivers do not obey the laws (here, I am thinking of speeding, a well-documented contributor to most driving incidents, distracted driving, drunk driving, the list goes on.)

Climb01742
06-11-2016, 06:15 AM
What you are missing is that the people in the incident that started the thread were law abiding. More importantly for me, the onus should not be on the defenseless. Follow the law or else you deserve to get killed by a driver is a strange attitude, especially since most car drivers do not obey the laws (here, I am thinking of speeding, a well-documented contributor to most driving incidents, distracted driving, drunk driving, the list goes on.)

Fly, no one is blaming the riders in Michigan. And no one is saying that getting killed is_ever_warranted. And for a third 'no one', no one is saying that drivers aren't a huge part of this problem.

But...

What of our role in this as cyclists? We have a responsibility too, yes? As a rider, even I get pissed at some riders who act like they're entitled to every inch of the road. Two weeks ago, on a Saturday, I rode up onto a large group ride that was completely blocking one lane of a two lane country road with a long line of cars stuck behind them. I rode up through them asking them to please ride single file because their behavior was getting drivers angry at_all_of us. Can you guess the response I got?

I know there is no blanket answer or blanket blame, but I do think a disproportionate amount of aggravation comes from group rides. It's a fair question, I think, to ask if, given the current situation out on the road these days, would it be wise if we riders voluntarily gave up group rides? I can already hear the howls of 'what about my rights?' and yes, it would be a sacrifice and maybe it's too extreme, but based on my years as a rider and as a driver, nothing creates more ill will than badly behaved group rides. A dynamic is created within_many_rides than breeds entitled behavior and actions that piss the hell out of many otherwise peaceful drivers. Again, I'm not letting drivers off the hook. There are plenty of a-holes behind the wheel, but given where we all stand today out there on the roads, with the daily reality we all face riding, would life be better and safer for all if group rides didn't exist? Ok, if that seems to draconian, what can we do -- from our side -- to lower the tension between riders and drivers? Saying drivers need to be better alone doesn't feel like much of a real answer. Maybe we need to give up something smaller -- group rides -- to keep something bigger -- our lives? Would it solve everything? No. But might it help?

flydhest
06-11-2016, 08:37 AM
Climb,
I still don't buy it. It is the self-other, us-them, defining people by membership in a perceived group. Car drivers regularly break the laws. I see it literally every single day from a staggeringly high fraction of drivers. Why, then, if drivers break the laws, do the deserve any respect on the road? Yeah, that logic doesn't follow, so it doesn't follow vis a vis cyclists.

I am unwilling to cede the idea that cars have more of a right. The fact that the power is unequal only makes me more sympathetic to bicycles. Built up from my perspective in American society, no doubt, and I think some of the parallels are painfully apt. Don't ask for more than you are given, even if it is your right, because you need to know your place. Doesn't fly with me.

zmudshark
06-11-2016, 08:53 AM
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/06/09/a-hit-and-run-driver-killed-5-people-on-bikes-so-the-press-lectured-cyclists/

saab2000
06-11-2016, 08:55 AM
Fly, no one is blaming the riders in Michigan. And no one is saying that getting killed is_ever_warranted. And for a third 'no one', no one is saying that drivers aren't a huge part of this problem.



Among our community maybe nobody is saying this. Read the comments sections on reports and blogs and FB posts about an event like this and your hair will stand on end. There are people who are normal human beings until they climb aboard a bicycle. Then they become subhuman, vermin, targets on the road. Some drivers (a very small percentage of course) really want us banned, or better. They do exist. We've all encountered them.

malcolm
06-11-2016, 09:13 AM
Climb,
I still don't buy it. It is the self-other, us-them, defining people by membership in a perceived group. Car drivers regularly break the laws. I see it literally every single day from a staggeringly high fraction of drivers. Why, then, if drivers break the laws, do the deserve any respect on the road? Yeah, that logic doesn't follow, so it doesn't follow vis a vis cyclists.

I am unwilling to cede the idea that cars have more of a right. The fact that the power is unequal only makes me more sympathetic to bicycles. Built up from my perspective in American society, no doubt, and I think some of the parallels are painfully apt. Don't ask for more than you are given, even if it is your right, because you need to know your place. Doesn't fly with me.

I agree 100%. It almost seems as if it's human nature to push the rules envelope just as much as you can get away with. A drive on any motorway in the US provides evidence. No matter the posted speed limit, if the roadway is clear the flow of traffic will be right about 10mph over with a good 10-20 driving way beyond that. It's almost an anomaly if someone comes to a complete stop at a stop sign.
I'm not one that advocates blindly following rules but as a group it's hard to argue we don't all pretty regularly disregard the rules as they apply to us yet show righteous indignation when someone else bends one that we deem important or sense that it impacts us.

It's hard not to see some degree of us against them. We are an automotive society and most folks that are not cyclists or don't have direct positive ties to cyclists see bikes on the roads as an impingement to their RIGHT to use the roads their tax dollars pay for. I personally know decent everyday working folks that become irate when discussing bicycles on the roads and can't fathom why anyone would force them to have to jeopardize someone's safety in order to use their roads.

I don't necessarily think cyclists should behave in order to receive better behavior from drivers but they should behave because it's the right thing to do. The only person you can control is your self and if enough of us do that maybe it'll start to rub off. It goes both ways, cars just have the advantage in weight, speed, lethality and popularity.

It may not be conscious but I think in these auto vs bike accidents juries and law enforcement have a sense no matter if openly expressed or just a mental predetermination to assign at least some fault to the cyclist for choosing to be out there on the roadways in the first place.

Climb01742
06-11-2016, 09:16 AM
Climb,
I still don't buy it. It is the self-other, us-them, defining people by membership in a perceived group. Car drivers regularly break the laws. I see it literally every single day from a staggeringly high fraction of drivers. Why, then, if drivers break the laws, do the deserve any respect on the road? Yeah, that logic doesn't follow, so it doesn't follow vis a vis cyclists.

I am unwilling to cede the idea that cars have more of a right. The fact that the power is unequal only makes me more sympathetic to bicycles. Built up from my perspective in American society, no doubt, and I think some of the parallels are painfully apt. Don't ask for more than you are given, even if it is your right, because you need to know your place. Doesn't fly with me.

Fly,

I absolutely agree with your underlying premises. Drivers do break the law frighteningly often. Believe me, no argument there.

But I also see riders either breaking the law or riding irresponsibly/selfishly often as well.

Where I'm at is this: so what do we do to make it better? What's in our power? Getting bad drivers to drive better/more safely rests, I'm afraid, with the police and courts. Enforcement and punishment may be the only viable answers. And man, I sure as hell wish this happened far, far more often.

But I can't let 'our' side of this equation skate. Some portion of riders behave badly, unsafely and in a way that creates more anger. Shouldn't some of the weight of making things better fall on us?

Maybe we're debating % of where weight falls, on drivers or on us. Fair enough.

And to your larger point, maybe I can't fully put myself in your shoes, but I'm not sure riding is in the same sphere as employment, education, voting, and housing. I don't advocate going along to get along or accepting diminished rights, but I don't believe that's what we're really discussing with rider behavior on the road. I may certainly be wrong, but I'm not sure the parallel is apt. But I hear you, and maybe I should keep pondering. Peace, my friend.

Gummee
06-11-2016, 10:23 AM
Fly, no one is blaming the riders in Michigan. And no one is saying that getting killed is_ever_warranted. And for a third 'no one', no one is saying that drivers aren't a huge part of this problem.

But...

What of our role in this as cyclists? We have a responsibility too, yes? As a rider, even I get pissed at some riders who act like they're entitled to every inch of the road. Two weeks ago, on a Saturday, I rode up onto a large group ride that was completely blocking one lane of a two lane country road with a long line of cars stuck behind them. I rode up through them asking them to please ride single file because their behavior was getting drivers angry at_all_of us. Can you guess the response I got?

I know there is no blanket answer or blanket blame, but I do think a disproportionate amount of aggravation comes from group rides. It's a fair question, I think, to ask if, given the current situation out on the road these days, would it be wise if we riders voluntarily gave up group rides? I can already hear the howls of 'what about my rights?' and yes, it would be a sacrifice and maybe it's too extreme, but based on my years as a rider and as a driver, nothing creates more ill will than badly behaved group rides. A dynamic is created within_many_rides than breeds entitled behavior and actions that piss the hell out of many otherwise peaceful drivers. Again, I'm not letting drivers off the hook. There are plenty of a-holes behind the wheel, but given where we all stand today out there on the roads, with the daily reality we all face riding, would life be better and safer for all if group rides didn't exist? Ok, if that seems to draconian, what can we do -- from our side -- to lower the tension between riders and drivers? Saying drivers need to be better alone doesn't feel like much of a real answer. Maybe we need to give up something smaller -- group rides -- to keep something bigger -- our lives? Would it solve everything? No. But might it help?single file is actually LESS safe than riding in a group. See David Boardman's videos on the subject (posted elsewhere here and other places) for further clarification.

I'm all for 'singling up' IF there's only a few riders AND it's a safe place to pass. If neither condition are right, it makes zero sense to facilitate an unsafe pass.

M

velomonkey
06-11-2016, 12:20 PM
Fly,

I absolutely agree with your underlying premises. Drivers do break the law frighteningly often. Believe me, no argument there.

But I also see riders either breaking the law or riding irresponsibly/selfishly often as well.



All the time - we behave bad and our bad behavior leads to drivers not liking us - logical conclusion - you brought this on yourself.

I call BS.

Me having to be safe and obey the laws is like being safe with a pea shooter. A car driver being safe and obeying the laws is like being safe with a M60 machine gun.

The consequenes are vastly different.

bikingshearer
06-11-2016, 04:05 PM
I am unwilling to cede the idea that cars have more of a right. The fact that the power is unequal only makes me more sympathetic to bicycles. Built up from my perspective in American society, no doubt, and I think some of the parallels are painfully apt. Don't ask for more than you are given, even if it is your right, because you need to know your place. Doesn't fly with me.

I agree with this 100%. I am right there on the barricades with you when it comes to insisting the bicycles should have an equal right to be on the road.

But I also think it is missing the point. What I was talking about isn't a matter of rights. It's a matter of not giving operators of cars and trucks with whom we have to share the road any excuse to justify marginalizing our right to be on the road. I'm not talking about backing down from riding our bikes; I'm talking about riding our bikes in a responsible, law-abiding way.

There are at least three realities that underlie this.

First, our right to use the road is statutory. I guarantee you that no court will ever say bicyclists have a constitutional right to be on the same roads as cars. That means that the state legislatures had to enact laws that give us such rights as we have. And what state legislatures giveth, state legislatures can taketh away. The next driver one of us pisses off could be a very powerful state politician. That, to put it mildly, would be bad.

Second, traffic laws exist to provide predictability, the ability to know with a good degree of certainty what the others on the road are going to do. That is what makes the roads safe enough to use. That predictability works in everybody's favor, but especially in our favor (and even more in pedestrians' favor) because we suffer a disproportional amount of harm when a car collides with us. When it comes to being safe on the road, unpredictability is bad.

Finally, and the ultimate crux of the matter, when cars and bikes collide, the driver walks or drives away and the cyclist goes to the ER or the morgue. Them's the laws of physics, for which there is no court of appeal. And if bicyclists behaving badly (by which I mean not obeying traffic laws at least to the degree cars do) is going to convince potential jurors that we all are a bunch of scofflaws undeserving of legal protection - then we are defeating ourselves.

stackie
06-13-2016, 11:57 AM
Lance to visit Kalamazoo to help finish the ride.

http://wwmt.com/news/local/lance-armstrong-visiting-kalamazoo-to-help-finish-a-bicycle-ride

Discuss.

I'm an optimist when I see people do good things. I'm going to call it a great thing for him to do.

Jon

thwart
06-13-2016, 12:26 PM
Lance to visit Kalamazoo to help finish the ride.

http://wwmt.com/news/local/lance-armstrong-visiting-kalamazoo-to-help-finish-a-bicycle-ride

Discuss.

I'm an optimist when I see people do good things. I'm going to call it a great thing for him to do.

Jon
Rebuilding the image. See: LiveStrong.

Needless to say, it will take a lot of work to undo the valid cynicism.

That said... for me it adds a bit of an off-note to the event... I'd wish he'd have passed on the ride and left it as a sympathetic Instagram post.

crossjunkee
06-13-2016, 12:53 PM
Lance to visit Kalamazoo to help finish the ride.

http://wwmt.com/news/local/lance-armstrong-visiting-kalamazoo-to-help-finish-a-bicycle-ride

Discuss.

I'm an optimist when I see people do good things. I'm going to call it a great thing for him to do.

Jon

I'm not a Lance fan, but he is a cyclist. Like the rest of us, he's just trying to show support in any way possible.

Dead Man
06-13-2016, 01:10 PM
Lance to visit Kalamazoo to help finish the ride.

http://wwmt.com/news/local/lance-armstrong-visiting-kalamazoo-to-help-finish-a-bicycle-ride

Discuss.

I'm an optimist when I see people do good things. I'm going to call it a great thing for him to do.

Jon

The first story on Lance I've ever seen that didn't mention stripped TdF victories or doping.... the world might finally be starting to grow up some.

firerescuefin
06-13-2016, 01:38 PM
Rebuilding the image. See: LiveStrong.

Needless to say, it will take a lot of work to undo the valid cynicism.

That said... for me it adds a bit of an off-note to the event... I'd wish he'd have passed on the ride and left it as a sympathetic Instagram post.

Dude is a cyclist and apparently still loves riding a bike (as he still rides quite a bit)...Not surprising if this struck him as it did many of us. If the families of those fallen want him there, then I think it's great. It also brings even more visibility to the event/puts more pressure on those in power to do the right thing because it's being watched....That's great too.

Shoeman
06-13-2016, 02:19 PM
Dude is a cyclist and apparently still loves riding a bike (as he still rides quite a bit)...Not surprising if this struck him as it did many of us. If the families of those fallen want him there, then I think it's great. It also brings even more visibility to the event/puts more pressure on those in power to do the right thing because it's being watched....That's great too.

Very Well Said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bluto
06-13-2016, 02:42 PM
That said... for me it adds a bit of an off-note to the event...

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

zmudshark
06-13-2016, 03:04 PM
Rebuilding the image. See: LiveStrong.

Needless to say, it will take a lot of work to undo the valid cynicism.

That said... for me it adds a bit of an off-note to the event... I'd wish he'd have passed on the ride and left it as a sympathetic Instagram post.Or recruited some more retired pros for the ride. That would have been nice, and less ego.

It's the ego that bothers me.

thwart
06-13-2016, 04:02 PM
Or recruited some more retired pros for the ride. That would have been nice, and less ego.

It's the ego that bothers me.

Yeah... kinda amazing some folks don't see that.

PaulE
06-13-2016, 04:09 PM
A shame some other pro's and former pro's didn't step up first, let's hope it has a positive impact for Kalamazoo and cyclists everywhere.

firerescuefin
06-13-2016, 04:13 PM
Yeah... kinda amazing some folks don't see that.

I think everyone sees the past for the past...and is more interested in the good it could do in light of this tragedy...than grinding that old axe.

I am no Armstrong defender, but even I find your take on this (my perception of it) a little over the top. I could be misreading you on this.

Matthew
06-13-2016, 04:41 PM
So it would have been better he not say anything at all? Or show any concern? What he has done in the past, which has been beaten to death here, is crappy. I believe that too, he has done some terrible things to lots of folks. But I think any positive publicity he can bring to the safety of riders on the road I can applaud. If it is part of his image rebuilding, I don't give a damn. He is keeping this tragic story alive for at least a little longer and maybe some drivers might look at us out there a bit differently in the future. How can that be bad?

zennmotion
06-13-2016, 05:12 PM
So it would have been better he not say anything at all? Or show any concern? What he has done in the past, which has been beaten to death here, is crappy. I believe that too, he has done some terrible things to lots of folks. But I think any positive publicity he can bring to the safety of riders on the road I can applaud. If it is part of his image rebuilding, I don't give a damn. He is keeping this tragic story alive for at least a little longer and maybe some drivers might look at us out there a bit differently in the future. How can that be bad?

It's not what he's done- honestly that's history. The problem is that he's incapable of "lending support" quietly without becoming the center of attention. Nobody can read his mind, but given his history and past apparent inability to conjure up any empathy, it's easy to see this as self-serving and ego-driven. Not sure the families and friends would all want his involvement, if it were my loss I wouldn't want him around. There are many ways to provide support from a distance without becoming a divisive part of the story. Someone capable of empathy would know just to stay away, and do something good behind the scenes that doesn't become an apparent attempt at image repair.

Shortsocks
06-13-2016, 05:19 PM
dude is a cyclist and apparently still loves riding a bike (as he still rides quite a bit)...not surprising if this struck him as it did many of us. If the families of those fallen want him there, then i think it's great. It also brings even more visibility to the event/puts more pressure on those in power to do the right thing because it's being watched....that's great too.

+1.

Dead Man
06-13-2016, 05:36 PM
I doubt any of the cyclists hit were clean racing professionals defeated by Lance. No ****s should be given about his racing history.

fuzzalow
06-13-2016, 06:13 PM
Were I advising Mr. Armstrong I would place extreme caution on participation in any public acts, however well intended, as they raise the specter of his abject self-centeredness. It therefore risks undermining his true positive intent if there is indeed one and looks like he is just creeping gradually back into the limelight.

His image rehabilitation, if that is actually happening, is too sporadic to look like it has received any real advice or has a true purposeful intent.

If Mr. Armstrong wants to rebuild I would advise him to quietly donate money or influence towards helping others. Perform deeds that are initiated or credited to him but do not involve his public face or image. Build a track record of real honest deeds, deeds that can much later get leaked as initiated by him. It might take years. Do nothing short-term that trades on the value of his infamous celebrity, that just becomes self immolating.

Downsides: no income, his burn rate is likely still generous and his influence is nil. Tough case. The guy is a pariah. But just like there are ambulance chasers there might be less legitimate professionals that would take on his case. There will always be somebody who thinks they got nuthin' to lose and might get notoriety working for Mr. Armstrong. But the reality was, and is, is that Mr. Armstrong never had clout, smarts or influence that wasn't a product and paid for by the corporate resources of his backers.

dave thompson
06-13-2016, 08:10 PM
Bicycling magazine posted on their Facebook page that Michigan is going to press murder charges against the driver. http://www.bicycling.com/culture/news/alleged-driver-in-kalamazoo-crash-to-face-murder-charges?cid=soc_BICYCLING%20magazine%20-%20bicyclingmag_FBPAGE_Bicycling__

CunegoFan
06-13-2016, 08:13 PM
Yeah... kinda amazing some folks don't see that.

People see what they want to see. The dude could rush into a burning building, save a dozen kittens, and people here would still complain that he just wanted to be the center of attention and should have stayed away..

1happygirl
06-14-2016, 09:47 AM
Were I advising Mr. Armstrong I would place extreme caution on participation in any public acts, however well intended, as they raise the specter of his abject self-centeredness. It therefore risks undermining his true positive intent if there is indeed one and looks like he is just creeping gradually back into the limelight.

His image rehabilitation, if that is actually happening, is too sporadic to look like it has received any real advice or has a true purposeful intent.

If Mr. Armstrong wants to rebuild I would advise him to quietly donate money or influence towards helping others. Perform deeds that are initiated or credited to him but do not involve his public face or image. Build a track record of real honest deeds, deeds that can much later get leaked as initiated by him. It might take years. Do nothing short-term that trades on the value of his infamous celebrity, that just becomes self immolating.

snipped

A terrible tragedy and spot on about Mr. A.
The minute I saw his post and Advertisement for his going to the event and invitation to join I felt creepy about it.

PS as a point of not publicizing CFA broke their stance against closed on Sundays for the families, survivors, and support personnel to deliver/make food for the victims of the Pulse nightclub. No publicity until after the fact iirc. Class.

BobO
06-14-2016, 02:15 PM
Bicycling magazine posted on their Facebook page that Michigan is going to press murder charges against the driver. http://www.bicycling.com/culture/news/alleged-driver-in-kalamazoo-crash-to-face-murder-charges?cid=soc_BICYCLING%20magazine%20-%20bicyclingmag_FBPAGE_Bicycling__

From the article;

In the wake of murder charges announced yesterday against the alleged reckless driver who plowed into a pack of Kalamazoo cyclists, killing five, the Michigan legislature is fast-tracking a bill that would intensify penalties against drivers who injure and kill cyclists.

Why not just get in the habit of enforcing the laws they already have? This clown murdered five people, don't we already have murder laws that they can use to prosecute him?

thwart
06-14-2016, 03:45 PM
In the wake of murder charges announced yesterday against the alleged reckless driver who plowed into a pack of Kalamazoo cyclists, killing five, the Michigan legislature is fast-tracking a bill that would intensify penalties against drivers who injure and kill cyclists.

Hey, it's about time.

Now we (well, at least Michigan) can be like most other civilized countries.

Must be the Lance effect... ;)

kaze
06-15-2016, 11:21 AM
Some coverage and videos of Finish the Ride...

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2016/06/lance_armstrong_helps_finish_t.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2016/06/lance_armstrong_talks_about_ge.html

shovelhd
06-15-2016, 11:53 AM
Why not just get in the habit of enforcing the laws they already have? This clown murdered five people, don't we already have murder laws that they can use to prosecute him?

Maybe the law adds clarification to vulnerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians? Maybe it imposes harsher penalties for causing them harm? Maybe it addresses distracted driving? Legislation has a way of morphing as it goes through the process. Think good thoughts.

azrider
06-22-2016, 06:30 PM
http://woodtv.com/2016/06/22/judge-to-meet-with-lawyers-in-fatal-bicycle-case/


During a news conference, Kalamazoo County Prosecutor Jeff Getting said lab results show Pickett was driving under the influence of a controlled substance at the time of the crash.

zmudshark
06-22-2016, 07:18 PM
http://woodtv.com/2016/06/22/judge-to-meet-with-lawyers-in-fatal-bicycle-case/


During a news conference, Kalamazoo County Prosecutor Jeff Getting said lab results show Pickett was driving under the influence of a controlled substance at the time of the crash.
Word on the street is meth and opioids, but that is hearsay. He may have said something at the scene that implied intent, once again, hearsay.

zmudshark
07-14-2016, 11:50 AM
More news:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/07/14/reports-driver-crash-killing-5-bicyclists-took-pills/87072942/

"Pickett's girlfriend told police he had been acting erratically the weekend before the crash and that he wouldn't let her leave their hotel room in Kalamazoo County's Oshtemo Township. According to the reports, he was upset by their relationship and the death of a cousin.

She told investigators he took 16 to 20 muscle relaxers about an hour and a half before the crash, then took 10 painkillers. According to the report, Pickett told her: "I've taken this much before," and then said, "I'd be better off dead."

Tony
07-14-2016, 12:05 PM
More news:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/07/14/reports-driver-crash-killing-5-bicyclists-took-pills/87072942/

"Pickett's girlfriend told police he had been acting erratically the weekend before the crash and that he wouldn't let her leave their hotel room in Kalamazoo County's Oshtemo Township. According to the reports, he was upset by their relationship and the death of a cousin.

She told investigators he took 16 to 20 muscle relaxers about an hour and a half before the crash, then took 10 painkillers. According to the report, Pickett told her: "I've taken this much before," and then said, "I'd be better off dead."

He's 100% right.

zmudshark
07-14-2016, 01:06 PM
More detailed article:

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2016/07/police_provide_details_on_pick.html#incart_river_h ome_pop

Louis
07-14-2016, 01:18 PM
Better article:

In a manner of speaking.

Unfortunately, there's no better in this story, it's bad all around.

Dead Man
07-14-2016, 01:45 PM
Just don't understand why these poor tortured souls can't just waste themselves instead of taking out a bunch of other people.

zmudshark
07-14-2016, 02:03 PM
In a manner of speaking.

Unfortunately, there's no better in this story, it's bad all around.

Fixed.

gemship
07-14-2016, 07:37 PM
More news:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/07/14/reports-driver-crash-killing-5-bicyclists-took-pills/87072942/

"Pickett's girlfriend told police he had been acting erratically the weekend before the crash and that he wouldn't let her leave their hotel room in Kalamazoo County's Oshtemo Township. According to the reports, he was upset by their relationship and the death of a cousin.

She told investigators he took 16 to 20 muscle relaxers about an hour and a half before the crash, then took 10 painkillers. According to the report, Pickett told her: "I've taken this much before," and then said, "I'd be better off dead."


Now I am not a lawyer but it seems like testimony like this makes the case for involuntary manslaughter vs. murder. In other words good ammo for the defense....he was under the influence and temporarily insane they will say.

zmudshark
07-14-2016, 07:53 PM
Now I am not a lawyer but it seems like testimony like this makes the case for involuntary manslaughter vs. murder. In other words good ammo for the defense....he was under the influence and temporarily insane they will say.

I'm no lawyer either but I think in Michigan it would still be second-degree murder no matter what you were under the influence of

gemship
07-14-2016, 09:00 PM
I'm no lawyer either but I think in Michigan it would still be second-degree murder no matter what you were under the influence of

I hope so, well a righteous punishment. I don't really don't know. I cringe at how the wheels of justice turn so slowly.

ps, I am just reading about a truck driving into a crowd of people in France killing at least 70,what the heck is going on....crazy world.

SpeedyChix
06-11-2018, 11:43 AM
A bit over two years after he mowed down a group of cyclists in Kalamazoo and killed five of them, he's been sentenced.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2018/06/charles_pickett_jr_sentenced.html

soulspinner
06-11-2018, 11:50 AM
A bit over two years after he mowed down a group of cyclists in Kalamazoo and killed five of them, he's been sentenced.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2018/06/charles_pickett_jr_sentenced.html

Bye bye...…….

SpeedyChix
06-11-2018, 11:58 AM
Bye bye...…….

With a minimum of 40 years, yes. Finally a "real" sentence for killing cyclists.

ducati2
06-11-2018, 01:02 PM
Sadly ironic that three ads for online liquor sales were served up to me on the page with the article. Personally, I don’t think the sentence was tough enough even though this guy will probably send the rest of his life in jail.

fignon's barber
06-11-2018, 01:36 PM
Sadly ironic that three ads for online liquor sales were served up to me on the page with the article.


Artificial intel customizes the ads to what you look at. My three ads were Competitiive Cyclist, Castelli, and Arc Teryx.:cool:

m_sasso
06-11-2018, 09:02 PM
I use AdBlock and received zero advertising.

To easy, 5 lives taken, hardly enough torment could be doled out to this guy in a 40 year prison term.

Forgiveness would be a really tough position to accept for his mistake.

tuxbailey
06-12-2018, 02:47 PM
I use AdBlock and received zero advertising.

To easy, 5 lives taken, hardly enough torment could be doled out to this guy in a 40 year prison term.

Forgiveness would be a really tough position to accept for his mistake.

Side note. Use uBlock origin instead of AdBlock.

GregL
06-12-2018, 02:54 PM
Forgiveness would be a really tough position to accept for his mistake.
Except there was no mistake. The murderer deliberately took the drugs on the day of the crash. No mistake, no accident, and in my opinion no forgiveness. Rotting in jail until at least age 90 is exactly what this monster deserves.

Greg