Thoughts on ISM saddles

[cmbicycles]

I have been reading on slow twitch about saddles lately and was reading how the ism saddles will effectively increase seat tube angle due to where you perch on the saddle. That would actually help with my tri bike fit as I've got the seat as far forward as it will go and feel like I should go a little more. The frame has a 76* sta, so just curious if anyone can verify this phenomenon before I go buy one.

[seric]

I only have experience with the ISM Typhoon. My Typhoon certainly sits farther back on the rails than the Selle Atomica it replaced. So much so that I switched from a straight to a setback seatpost.

[C50]

The ultimate answer to your question is yes, you can effectively ride a steeper seat tube angle if that is your goal. If you have the front of an ISM saddle positioned so the front arms are at the same setback over the bottom bracket as a traditional saddle you will be effectively be positioning your saddle further forward. The front arm structure is what is underneath you (supports the weight of the rider on the pubic rami) and this facilitates increased natural and sustainable hip rotation.

For a road bike it is more common than not to have an ISM saddle positioned all the way back or almost all the way back even on a seat post that has offset because again you are positioning the front arms of the saddle underneath the rider and done correctly as a general rule you will have about three fingers width of distance from the back of the body to the back of the saddle. This is just a guide to follow to make sure you are positioned optimally.

Just to add something from a few days ago from the thread about saddles with cutouts. There was a comment about tri guys stuffing their junk in the cutout. All the "junk" is in front of the arms of an ISM saddle so need to stuff it anywhere it shouldn't be and while ISM is the #1 saddle in the triathlon and TT world we never made a triathlon saddle. We made a bike seat based off the entire pelvic bone structure of the body and the health, comfort and performance benefits apply to all types of cycling as witnessed just last week with Evan Huffman riding an ISM saddle to win the King of the Mountains competition at the Tour of California.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to message me and it would be my pleasure to further assist you.

Dave S.
ISM Saddles

[carpediemracing]

I have been reading on slow twitch about saddles lately and was reading how the ism saddles will effectively increase seat tube angle due to where you perch on the saddle. That would actually help with my tri bike fit as I've got the seat as far forward as it will go and feel like I should go a little more. The frame has a 76* sta, so just curious if anyone can verify this phenomenon before I go buy one.

Yes, you can get a more forward position effectively.

I'm an (impartial) ISM user. I got fitted by someone that doesn't sell ISMs but thinks they work well in certain situations. For me, with 4 mm of set back on my SLR saddle (and 75.5 seat tube angle, zero set back post, this is a road bike), I wanted to get a shorter length saddle. My goal was to have more than basically zero set back.

I was neutral on the saddle when I tried it on the fit bike. It didn't seem bad but it wasn't angels on clouds with harps which is what someone else was asking when asking about comfort.

However, and this is significant for me, when I got home my SLR saddle felt so uncomfortable that I looked on eBay, bought an ISM saddle, and didn't ride until the saddle came in.

I just raced today on my ISM saddle, in a crit. Great, lots of different positions front to back that were simply not an issue, the saddle just doesn't factor into any comfort/discomfort thoughts. It just goes away.

It seems that people either love or hate the ISM. I bought one off eBay. Another someone on a different forum literally mailed it to me and wanted nothing in return. If you can you should see if you can try one at a fitter or something. Then find someone that doesn't like their ISM.

Picture of my bike after the race (with the "pre-owned" ISM saddle). I like this saddle a bit better, not really sure what the differences are between the two:
https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net/9hl97nYwO9mZlOZiEHB7BwRcSgUEUu-9q0YxhFUfaLg-1024x576.jpg

My bike with the free new saddle, not as keen on this one, rather have two like the white one:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KyMkzkoxy1w/V1AxKf4lzFI/AAAAAAAAI7s/8d75BINSAgkNmiznWR6pFkg3m4W9A2U2QCLcB/s800/DSC_0922.JPG

[jmoore]

I was coming in to say that C50 should chime in, but I see he beat me to the punch.

[txcid05]

The ultimate answer to your question is yes, you can effectively ride a steeper seat tube angle if that is your goal. If you have the front of an ISM saddle positioned so the front arms are at the same setback over the bottom bracket as a traditional saddle you will be effectively be positioning your saddle further forward. The front arm structure is what is underneath you (supports the weight of the rider on the pubic rami) and this facilitates increased natural and sustainable hip rotation.

For a road bike it is more common than not to have an ISM saddle positioned all the way back or almost all the way back even on a seat post that has offset because again you are positioning the front arms of the saddle underneath the rider and done correctly as a general rule you will have about three fingers width of distance from the back of the body to the back of the saddle. This is just a guide to follow to make sure you are positioned optimally.

Just to add something from a few days ago from the thread about saddles with cutouts. There was a comment about tri guys stuffing their junk in the cutout. All the "junk" is in front of the arms of an ISM saddle so need to stuff it anywhere it shouldn't be and while ISM is the #1 saddle in the triathlon and TT world we never made a triathlon saddle. We made a bike seat based off the entire pelvic bone structure of the body and the health, comfort and performance benefits apply to all types of cycling as witnessed just last week with Evan Huffman riding an ISM saddle to win the King of the Mountains competition at the Tour of California.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to message me and it would be my pleasure to further assist you.

Dave S.
ISM Saddles


I was considering a ISM purchase last year, but might reconsider after reading that. Thanks Dave.

[commonguy001]

If you want to try the Adamo Road I've got one that didn't work for me I'd let go cheap.

[cmbicycles]

Thank you everyone for the responses. Sounds like it should get me closer to the setback/sta i'm trying to reach. I'll give it a go and see how it works, can't hurt... unless I try to stuff something into the cutout. :eek: (do people really try to do that?)

[quauhnahuac]

There was a comment about tri guys stuffing their junk in the cutout. All the "junk" is in front of the arms of an ISM saddle so need to stuff it anywhere it shouldn't be and while ISM is the #1 saddle in the triathlon and TT world we never made a triathlon saddle.

Yes, but you make a TT model, no? How would a TT model differ from a specific "triathlon" saddle?

[C50]

We did have a model called the Time Trial which is now called the PS1.0, the PS refers to the Performance Short series. For 2016 we moved almost all models into our alpha-numeric naming system which with a little bit of education and understanding helps classify the three performance chassis or mold shapes. Within the Performance Short, Performance Long and Performance Narrow there are several models that are different by level of padding and seat rail material which also determines price point. The only saddle not renamed is the "Road" model because it is the #1 selling model and we didn't want to scare our loyal customers by seemingly discontinuing their favorite model. To deal with this situation we introduced the PS1.1 model which is the Road model with the updated sloped front arms and over time as people understand they can get their Road model with an additional feature we can phase out the "Road" name at some point in the future. Also, we spend a lot of time prototyping and blood flow testing new models and no matter how much time and money we invest in a new model we would spend as much time and money trying to name a saddle and lawyers to research trademarks so we went to a system that we already used in explaining the features of each saddle shape.

While the Time Trial (now PS1.0) and other saddles from the Performance Short series are great for Triathletes and TT riders they are perfectly good choices for road riders who don't like a lot of fore/aft movement. Also, the short saddles have a 5 degree slope built into them versus the flatter profile saddles in the Performance Long and Performance Narrow series. Lots of reasons for this some of which had to do with the older UCI regulations for saddle tilt which thankfully they listened and adopted a proposal I wrote and the WFSGI submitted and was adopted to allow up to 9 degrees of saddle tilt. In the pictures above the first saddle is the Racing model (PS) series and the lower picture is the Prologue (it is actually an OEM version of the Prologue that Cervelo stocks on the P5 and P3 models) which is from the PL series. Big difference in padding levels with the Prologue being softer as well as 3cm longer in the middle of the saddle and the seat rails material is different as well but that comes down to a gram and dollar difference. If the two bikes had the exact same seat tube angle and it looks like both are using zero offset seat posts with the saddle pushed all the way forward the Prologue is actually giving you a different position potentially because of the extra length of the saddle so if you want a closer comparison in position to the racing my recommendation would be to move the saddle back. You will now be comparing padding level differences as well as slop difference.

[carpediemracing]

In the pictures above the first saddle is the Racing model (PS) series and the lower picture is the Prologue (it is actually an OEM version of the Prologue that Cervelo stocks on the P5 and P3 models) which is from the PL series. Big difference in padding levels with the Prologue being softer as well as 3cm longer in the middle of the saddle and the seat rails material is different as well but that comes down to a gram and dollar difference. If the two bikes had the exact same seat tube angle and it looks like both are using zero offset seat posts with the saddle pushed all the way forward the Prologue is actually giving you a different position potentially because of the extra length of the saddle so if you want a closer comparison in position to the racing my recommendation would be to move the saddle back. You will now be comparing padding level differences as well as slop difference.

Thanks for explaining the differences in the saddles. I'll try moving the Prologue back and see how it works out.

[guido]

I was an early ISM adopter, but while they totally solved the numbness issues, I found they tended to abrade my shorts/chafe me along the sides of the twin nose section. I switched to the Cobb Randee which has a narrower nose and have never looked back. Pure comfort.

[C50]

The reason you were getting the chaffing/abrasion or had a feeling of wanting a narrower "nose" was because the ISM design was not optimally positioned within the context of your overall bike fit. In fact, there is no "nose" to an ISM saddle so there is nothing to interfere with the legs as they go through the pedal stroke. In the vest majority of these types of cases moving the saddle back at the same time you lower your seat height a few millimeters eliminates any chaffing or feeling of width at the front of the saddle. Generally, you will lower your overall seat height 5mm to keep your fit the same which accounts for the fact that the bone structure of the body is supported on the top plane of the saddle instead of sinking into the cradle part of a traditional saddle.

[guido]

Well actually i have been fitted 3 different times by 3 good fitters using this type of saddle so i think my position is pretty decent. Problem is i ride long distances with an aero bar and full drop bars and so during the course of a ride i am all over the saddle from the "just off the front" position to sitting all the way back and all points in between. If you sit statically on the nose you probably have a point, but that doesn't work for someone not doing a triathlon and riding varying terrain multiple hundreds of kilometers at a time.


The reason you were getting the chaffing/abrasion or had a feeling of wanting a narrower "nose" was because the ISM design was not optimally positioned within the context of your overall bike fit. In fact, there is no "nose" to an ISM saddle so there is nothing to interfere with the legs as they go through the pedal stroke. In the vest majority of these types of cases moving the saddle back at the same time you lower your seat height a few millimeters eliminates any chaffing or feeling of width at the front of the saddle. Generally, you will lower your overall seat height 5mm to keep your fit the same which accounts for the fact that the bone structure of the body is supported on the top plane of the saddle instead of sinking into the cradle part of a traditional saddle.

[rnhood]

I was an early ISM adopter, but while they totally solved the numbness issues, I found they tended to abrade my shorts/chafe me along the sides of the twin nose section. I switched to the Cobb Randee which has a narrower nose and have never looked back. Pure comfort.

I bought a Randee after reading about it, thinking it was exactly the saddle I needed. But it was pure discomfort from day 1. It was the last thing I expected however, saddles are extremely difficult to predict most of the time. One just never knows until they try it. The ISM saddles are not perfect, at least for a road bike, but I can ride them with no numbness, in the drops for extended periods.

[C50]

I would bet that Kurt Searvogel would say that ISM Saddles can be ridden for thousands of miles on a road bike that also includes aerobars as he used them effectively to ride the majority of his 76,076 miles as he broke the world record for the most miles ridden in a year.

[guido]

I think that everyone's butt is enough different to support the broad thriving aftermarket saddle market. What works or one person may not work for another. That is quite ok. Find one that works for you and go ride your bike.