Cooked ENVE 6.7's

[Splash]

I think I may have just cooked my ENVE 6.7's, by riding and braking in the rain yesterday.

Pretty disappointed. I now know I should not have taken this wheelset out on this ride.

Just below the letter "C" and to the left on the rim seems to be a scorched mark. Thoughts?

Also, the brake track around the entire circumference on both sides of both rims appear to be worn - not sure if this is normal though - but was not there before the ride yesterday.

I have advised ENVE in USA and awaiting their feedback during the week.


SPlash

[oldpotatoe]

I think I may have just cooked my ENVE 6.7's, by riding and braking in the rain yesterday.

Pretty disappointed.

I now know I should not have done this.

Photos to come shortly...


SPlash

Are they way bulged at those spots?

In the shop, I got a 'crash replacement' for a woman who did this TWICE to set of ENVE clinchers..

[Splash]

Hi there.

No, they do not appear bulged out at those places.

I am not sure if what i provided is a scorch mark or just a general wear mark?

I have included more photos of the whole rims themselves and a clear picture of the apparent scorch mark on the rim...under the letter 'C' on the tire

When I got home after the ride, i wiped a rag along the worn brake track and i could see a consistent wipe mark of carbon on the rag....

Have I done damage to these rims?

Splash

[Veloo]

I don't get it. A ride in the rain will ruin such a sought after and pricey product?
I've never owned carbon rims. Is this just a defective rim or these known for this problem?

[shovelhd]

If this is a problem, and I'm not convinced it is, it's not a "carbon rim" problem. Even my cheap generic carbon rims have been bulletproof.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi there.

No, they do not appear bulged out at those places.

I am not sure if what i provided is a scorch mark or just a general wear mark?

I have included more photos of the whole rims themselves and a clear picture of the apparent scorch mark on the rim...under the letter 'C' on the tire

When I got home after the ride, i wiped a rag along the worn brake track and i could see a consistent wipe mark of carbon on the rag....

Have I done damage to these rims?

Splash

Is that spot way uneven to the touch, running your finger along it, does it feel 'wonky'? be careful to not stab yourself with carbon if there are sharp parts.

Send a pic to ENVE..see what they say.

https://enve.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

[Splash]

Hi OP.

That spot does not feel uneven to touch but there is a definite change in texture felt. Have you seen this type of mark before on carbon rims? I will send the pic off to ENVE.

Should I be seeing fine carbon particles appear on a rag after i wipe the brake track along the entire circumference after a ride with plenty of braking and water?? Is this normal?


Splash

[Cicli]

Are you sure its carbon grime and not just road grime on the pads?
Will the spot come off? Maybe try scraping it with the edge of a CC or something plastic?

[Splash]

Great questions.

the particles are discrete, even, same distinctive carbon colour.

when i wipe the other part of the rim, i see dirt on the rag and looks different to the brake track stuff on the rag.

The spot does not come off, despite different types of rubbing and use of carbon friendly utensils.

Splash

[Tickdoc]

Enve pads?

How old are the wheels?

I rode my 3.4's in the rain yesterday. They stop like a model t when wet, but still stop. That damage looks like something hard got caught in between the pads.

Enves carry a two year warranty to original user, do they not? Even if out of warranty, I bet they will offer some sort of replacement discount, but those look toast to me.

[AngryScientist]

what brake pads are you using? i've run my enve rims in the rain in the past with no issues. also, the residue you're seeing is likely brake pad material and road grime, not carbon. you'll get the same type of residue off of alloy rims after a wet ride, at least i do.

see what enve says, but IMO, if you you dont feel a bulge or indentation at the location you are concerned with, dont worry about it. all brake tracks wear with braking, and faster in wet conditions, it's expected.

[Splash]

Purchased brand new in 2012, probably 3,000km on them only.

Using the right ENVE Pads.

Tickdoc - On what basis are you saying the both rims are toast?

Angry Scientist - how has your stopping been on the carbon rims in the wet?

Perhaps this ride with increased braking (more than normal) has removed enough very fine layers of carbon to reveal a material defect in the building process of the rim..?




Splash

[makoti]

Enves carry a two year warranty to original user, do they not?

5 years, I think it is.

[AngryScientist]

Angry Scientist - how has your stopping been on the carbon rims in the wet?



i use the enve pads too, and i find the braking, even on steeper descents, acceptable for carbon rims in the wet. it's not alloy rim good, but workable and predictable. my rims show some real wear at the brake tracks, but nothing that concerns me, and they are certainly not yet at "end of life". i dont think yours are either. like i said, wear is more pronounced and accelerated when riding in the wet, but is to be expected, the brake tracks will not remain pristine forever, but as long as they arent too thin, or warped badly, you should be good.

[Splash]

Thanks AS.

What stopping distance (in ft or m) do you experience in the wet with your carbon rims?

SPlash

[AngryScientist]

Thanks AS.

What stopping distance (in ft or m) do you experience in the wet with your carbon rims?

SPlash

Hey Splash, i can appreciate that you're trying to compare my experience with your own, but in reality, there is no way i can answer that question that would be meaningful to you, i think. stopping distance, stated in length would assume that my intent is to stop to 0mph as quickly as physically possible, which is rarely ever the case for me. it also depends a ton on road conditions, steepness of the road, total rider/bike weight, tire choice, etc etc.

not trying to be argumentative though, i just dont think i could quantify a stopping distance, since every single braking situation is unique for the most part.

i will say this, even in the wet, going downhill with carbon rims, i feel that the traction between the tire and the road is always the limiting factor in how quickly i can stop a road bike, not braking performance.

hope that helps.

[firerescuefin]

what brake pads are you using? i've run my enve rims in the rain in the past with no issues. also, the residue you're seeing is likely brake pad material and road grime, not carbon. you'll get the same type of residue off of alloy rims after a wet ride, at least i do.

see what enve says, but IMO, if you you dont feel a bulge or indentation at the location you are concerned with, dont worry about it. all brake tracks wear with braking, and faster in wet conditions, it's expected.

Those rims are fine...Alcohol the rim after washing with soap and water...clean the pads with the same and scuff with a sanding block if they're glazed over. I've had two sets of Enve's...there is nothing alarming about those pics.

Those rims with pads (Enve) that are in decent shape actually stop better in the wet than most similar wheels.

[Tickdoc]

Purchased brand new in 2012, probably 3,000km on them only.

Using the right ENVE Pads.

Tickdoc - On what basis are you saying the both rims are toast?



Splash

That flash pic...the rim looks damaged there, into the carbon, unless my eyes are wrong. Hopefully just buildup, and even more hope that enve will respond in your favor.

Is there a noticeable skip in the braking feel in that spot? Maybe it's just the photo (hopefully so) but that flash pic looks like the carbon is damaged.

I have good dry stopping on my enve wheels and enve pads, except for a little squeaking from the front sometimes. The wet stop is not so great, though.

[firerescuefin]

Splash...to make yourself feel better (if you can't get past it/think it's a genuine defect), take them to an Enve dealer and have them evaluated (they'll take pics) and send them off to Enve. Their customer service is top notch.

[happycampyer]

Unless there is obvious damage, it is very difficult to assess the condition of a carbon rim simply from photos. Enve rims are difficult to photograph, particularly with a flash, due to the naturally wavy carbon layup (compare Campagnolo carbon rims for example, which have a uniform finish).

As firerescuefin suggested, take the wheels to a local Enve dealer, and have the mechanic inspect them (where did you buy them? That would be a good place to start). If you bought them online, then take them to a trusted shop with a good mechanic, preferably one that is an Enve dealer.

You need to clean the rims completely, as mentioned above, to make sure that you have removed all residue. Only then can you tell (or, someone qualified can tell) if the wear is normal or if the brake track is damaged.

[parallelfish]

I have good dry stopping on my enve wheels and enve pads, except for a little squeaking from the front sometimes. The wet stop is not so great, though.
Same here. Regularly cleaning the brake tracks and scuffing the pads with with a fine file works wonders. Also have to keep after the toe adjustment more often than alloy rims. But wet braking is not so good, so I do not ride them in the wet.

[Splash]

Thanks Guys.

Appreciate your feedback.

ParralleFish - How do i check for toe adjustment on these pads?

And, just out of curiosity - for those that may have the ENVE 2.2 rims - does that changed brake track texture (to dimple) improve braking in the wet at all?

Splash

[chiasticon]

I actually enjoyed braking in the wet on carbon rims. it left a lot less black grime all over, and wiped up easily. it wasn't much worse than them stopping normal, just a bit delayed. that's when riding alone. in groups, they're terrifying and I almost rode into the back of people several times.

anyway, yeah, talk to enve or a dealer. hard to tell from pics and even if we did say "they're toast" you're not gonna get anything from that; would still have to talk to enve.

[Spdntrxi]

I got caught out in the rain with 6.7s.. Long technical descent too.. No issues .. Others then I had to brake hella early


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks Guys.

Appreciate your feedback.

ParralleFish - How do i check for toe adjustment on these pads?

And, just out of curiosity - for those that may have the ENVE 2.2 rims - does that changed brake track texture (to dimple) improve braking in the wet at all?

Splash

If they squeal, toe them in a wee bit..eyeball it. What they are doing is hitting flat and vibrating, why they are squealing. If they aren't makin' noise, leave 'em alone, but rough 'em up a bit.

[teleguy57]

Toe-in: I like to use a business card between pad and rim, inserted about 1/4 of the length of the pad from the rim. OldPotatoe can do it freehand because spuds have eyes -- and mine need reading glasses:)

[velomonkey]

i've run my enve rims in the rain in the past with no issues.


As a general rule rain rides produce more road grime with lose debris and 'could' possibly scratch up a carbon rim - though I'm not sure what you have is all that bad.

However, I rode my ENVE's in a summer rain ride and the braking - in my view - was hazardous (and that's putting it nicely). Not even remotely close to alloy braking.

[Splash]

Thanks Guys.

VeloMonkey - I agree - This was the very first time i rode in the wet on these rims and will be the very last. Braking was around 10m stopping distance, no matter how hard I pressed the brake levers. What to you think that unusual colouration is located on the rim just under the letter 'C' on the tire?

Splash

[firerescuefin]

New pads or scuffed pads (not glazed over) make a big difference in the rain. These wheels in the wet are much much better than other carbon/cork or carbon/swissstop combos I've had in the past

[lhuerta]

There is a piece of rim missing in second set of pictures, right above the "O"....looks like u hit something and damaged the edge of the rim. The impact likely caused the discoloration u see in the surrounding fibers. Will most def not be a warranty replacement.

[Splash]

interesting.

I do not observe or feel any part of the rim missing.

Attached are more photos...

Splash

[Raffy]

See my thread from last year.....mine doesn't have any texture/thickness differences, fyi.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=178461

[hollowgram5]

See my thread from last year.....mine doesn't have any texture/thickness differences, fyi.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=178461
My 25s have similar inconsistencies, for what it's worth.

[R3awak3n]

that looks fine to me, I have a bunch of those spots on mine. As long as its smooth I say its fine

[Neil]

Put a straight edge/steel rule on it, edge on, if there's no variation between the area with the outline and the rest of the braking surface then I'd say it's fine.

[nate2351]

What has enve said?

[Splash]

Nate - Enve has responded in the last few hours by wanting more background information by asking some follow up questions like:

1) Does the braking catch at that spot? Answer - No

2) Do you observe any difference in braking ability - Answer No, besides general poor braking in the wet on both rims.

They are still investigating this matter.


SPlash

[lhuerta]

interesting.

I do not observe or feel any part of the rim missing.

Attached are more photos...



New and better quality pics paint a different story....indeed it does not appear as if there is any part of your rim missing

[Tickdoc]

Nate - Enve has responded in the last few hours by wanting more background information by asking some follow up questions like:

1) Does the braking catch at that spot? Answer - No

2) Do you observe any difference in braking ability - Answer No, besides general poor braking in the wet on both rims.

They are still investigating this matter.


SPlash

Well, at least they responded and are looking at it. Glad to know I is not chipped, bc that is how it looked to me in the first pic. Gotta file my pads later.

[Hermes_Alex]

I think the good news, right out of the gate, is that this doesn't look to me like a heat-related failure. Those are already exceedingly rare with carbon tubulars, and would have been accompanied by more severe warping if so.

If there's no perceptible material missing, then you're probably just seeing a wrinkle or some irregularity in the layup that I'd have to imagine has been there all along. There's no wear-through of the material on either side of that spot, so it seems to me like that point was like that when it was new, or it was protruding slightly and was worn through by use. When that happens, there tends to be bare carbon material flaking off, which seems to be borne out by your experience

Did the rims, when they were new, have any issues with irregular braking? In any case, Enve will give you the final word as to the rim's safety or not.

[DFORD]

do you think they are going to fail? looks fine to me

[Splash]

Photos of front brake pads...

Any comments on the brake pads would be appreciated, along with any possible links to the colouration in the rim.

The first 2 photos show both brake pads pointing towards front of bike with pad on RHS of photo being the chain drive side.

Thanks


Splash

[Splash]

Do those pads still have sufficient life left before they need replacing?

Splash

[kramnnim]

They're barely used but appear to be quite filthy.

[saab2000]

Those pads have plenty of life. If the pads don't catch the rims anywhere you're fine.

What looks like a de-lamination of the rim is probably a trick of the light. If the layers aren't coming apart quit worrying about it.

The pads can go MUCH further down before you need to replace them. But keep them clean. The grime will cause them to wear out sooner and will cause your rim to wear out sooner.

Wipe down pads and rims with a damp cloth frequently.

They're barely used but appear to be quite filthy.

Yes, this.