OT: Heat pump looks like it died.

[makoti]

It's 14 years old, so I guess I can't complain TOO much, but still...
Anyone work in this field or have experience with this? I'm not even sure what I should be asking or how to go about it. Have someone coming out tomorrow, and had a phone consult with one guy who said, due to a tripped breaker that refused to un-trip even for a moment, he thought compressor & given the age of the unit, time for a new one.
Do I buy one somewhere & have someone install? Or buy through whoever does the install? I imagine that limits choices.
Replace both inside & outside units together? Inside seems to be chugging along.
Not how I was hoping to spend my holiday. How many pairs of Rapha bibs is this gonna cost?! :crap:

[Fatty]

Could be a bad breaker or a short. Maybe a fried critter.

[makoti]

Could be a bad breaker or a short. Maybe a fried critter.

Hope that's all it is

[unterhausen]

on the off chance that you don't know this, breakers don't turn back on from a tripped condition. You have to turn them off and then on. My sister had a breaker that wouldn't un-trip. I know I tried to turn it back on before, but last weekend I realized it was just being really difficult to turn off. So I pushed really hard, it turned off, and then I could turn it on with no problem.

[F150]

Not how I was hoping to spend my holiday. How many pairs of Rapha bibs is this gonna cost?! :crap:

If not the fuse or breaker, perhaps lots and lots. Look for an outdoor disconnect box on exterior wall of house, near the unit. If it has a fuse (or fuses), get an EXACT replacement and give that a try before The Man comes out. May be a bad fuse, perhaps a bad breaker. Ants been known to get inside the disconnect box and cause a short.

My downstairs split unit is 27 yrs old. Crossed fingers beginning to cramp...

[Peter P.]

I would not buy a unit THEN have someone install it. I would buy the unit from the person who is going to install it.

Typically the service person has brand/model preferences and/or is familiar with the installation of Product X and may even be certified for that product. If the service tech installs something they are not authorized to sell or install, the unit may subsequently not be covered under any warranty.

You may pay extra, but it's worth the peace of mind. When getting quotes, ask about whether the pump is covered under the warranty and who will guarantee the service. Have them SHOW you the warranty.

[makoti]

on the off chance that you don't know this, breakers don't turn back on from a tripped condition. You have to turn them off and then on. My sister had a breaker that wouldn't un-trip. I know I tried to turn it back on before, but last weekend I realized it was just being really difficult to turn off. So I pushed really hard, it turned off, and then I could turn it on with no problem.

I did not. I will try this as soon as I get home!

[ultraman6970]

The problem with A/C stuff in general is that nobody will sell you a new unit just because you have the money to buy it, unless you have an A/C license, because they will ask for that number.

As for little parts I dont tihnk you will have a problem but as for the whole thing they will ask for that license number 1st. Do you know an A/C guy??

[Ralph]

Where I live.....when your AC stops....you get it fixed or replaced.....ASAP. They sorta got you.....it's too uncomfortable to live without it while I go bargain shopping. Just get a new one. get a name brand with a good warranty.....and figure that's one of the costs of home ownership. Hopefully it's just a compressor replacement....that's not too bad.

[Tandem Rider]

How recently did it actually run? Turn the unit off at the thermostat prior to resetting the breaker. Reset breaker, turn on fan first to make sure it runs. If ok, back to off, then turn it on normally and see what happens. If it trips again, let me know and I'll give you a couple more steps to try for the non-pro.

[F150]

I'm no A/C technician, but assumed everything is dead due to the tripped breaker. Agree with Tandem, start at the beginning and walk thru some logical checks. Also, if you were operating in cooling mode and everything stopped, see if there is a condensate pan beneath the unit (typ. provided if coils/air handler are in attic or basement). If that pan has a level switch and pan is full of water, it will shut down the unit. Pan full of water could be due to any number of things, but typically clogged drain or low refrigerant/coil freezeup. But I don't think any of that would cause a tripped breaker.

I've had a blower fail to run just b/c the front panel was not properly installed. All sorts of little things that can cause what appears to be a bigger issue.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Request at least a 15 SEER unit. There are still some 14 SEER units (at least in my state) and the cost difference was nominal in my case recently. Efficiency is your friend.

[makoti]

The problem with A/C stuff in general is that nobody will sell you a new unit just because you have the money to buy it, unless you have an A/C license, because they will ask for that number.

As for little parts I dont tihnk you will have a problem but as for the whole thing they will ask for that license number 1st. Do you know an A/C guy??

I did. Had a good guy who didn't charge a ton & was very quick to come out. Called him for this, but it'd been about a year since I needed him. He apparently died. Sorry to hear it on so many levels.

[sand fungus]

I had mine stop working and I was blowing a fuse on the thermostat circuit. I called and had someone come look and they spent 4 hours trying to diagnose the problem and were not able to fine an answer and suggested that I try a new thermostat.

I tried that and no go, the thermostat was fine. So I did a bit of checking with the ole voltmeter and found a short in the wire that goes to the exterior unit once I replaced that wire it worked fine. A lot of times the wire gets damaged from weed whackers or mowers etc.

[makoti]

OK! Update...
Got home and tried flipping the breaker all the way off, let it sit for a minute, and back on. It held! The fan came on, the unit outside started, and I have cool-ish (it is a heat pump) air coming out of the vents! How long it will last, I am not sure, so I have a new guy coming out tomorrow and at least he can give it a check to see if it's anything as bad as I thought. It may be working, but something made it do that & I'd like it fixed before we get a stretch of 90+. Thank you, unterhausen for pointing out the obvious!
To answer the other questions, it's hard to say when the last time it worked is. I just flipped on the AC yesterday for the first time this year. It's been cool, so no need for AC or heat. Could have been like this for two weeks or more.
Thanks everyone. I almost didn't post this, because I know how OT is frowned upon but so glad I did. If nothing else, I just might get to sleep tonight.

[Tickdoc]

OK! Update...
Got home and tried flipping the breaker all the way off, let it sit for a minute, and back on. It held! The fan came on, the unit outside started, and I have cool-ish (it is a heat pump) air coming out of the vents! How long it will last, I am not sure, so I have a new guy coming out tomorrow and at least he can give it a check to see if it's anything as bad as I thought. It may be working, but something made it do that & I'd like it fixed before we get a stretch of 90+. Thank you, unterhausen for pointing out the obvious!
To answer the other questions, it's hard to say when the last time it worked is. I just flipped on the AC yesterday for the first time this year. It's been cool, so no need for AC or heat. Could have been like this for two weeks or more.
Thanks everyone. I almost didn't post this, because I know how OT is frowned upon but so glad I did. If nothing else, I just might get to sleep tonight.

Good news! I was going to suggest kicking it:D

[alancw3]

OK! Update...
Got home and tried flipping the breaker all the way off, let it sit for a minute, and back on. It held! The fan came on, the unit outside started, and I have cool-ish (it is a heat pump) air coming out of the vents! How long it will last, I am not sure, so I have a new guy coming out tomorrow and at least he can give it a check to see if it's anything as bad as I thought. It may be working, but something made it do that & I'd like it fixed before we get a stretch of 90+. Thank you, unterhausen for pointing out the obvious!
To answer the other questions, it's hard to say when the last time it worked is. I just flipped on the AC yesterday for the first time this year. It's been cool, so no need for AC or heat. Could have been like this for two weeks or more.
Thanks everyone. I almost didn't post this, because I know how OT is frowned upon but so glad I did. If nothing else, I just might get to sleep tonight.

i had the same symptoms several years ago on a unit that had not been serviced for many years (like7) and it just needed a feon charge. two years later and still running fine. if i remember correctly there maybe a low pressure switch in the unit that safeguards the unit burning out when low on feon. service tech will hookup gauges and diagnose. and check for leaks.

[rnhood]

i had the same symptoms several years ago on a unit that had not been serviced for many years (like7) and it just needed a feon charge. two years later and still running fine. if i remember correctly there maybe a low pressure switch in the unit that safeguards the unit burning out when low on fein. service tech will hookup gauges and diagnose. and check for leaks.

Yes, this is very likely the issue. A 14 year old unit will have the older freon so a pound of two will cost a hundred or so dollars, but its far cheaper than replacing the unit (they would have to replace the interior unit also).

[OtayBW]

I almost didn't post this, because I know how OT is frowned upon...You're joking, right? :rolleyes:

[makoti]

You're joking, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah, sort of. Someone will post about OT and ask why we talk heat pumps on a bike forum ;)
New update: Guy just left. The breaker had a loose wire that may have been the issue. Did a check-up, all looked ok but he did say that it was getting close to the end of its useful life. 13 years old, using a freon that goes away in about two years & is already really pricey. Gave me a rough estimate for a new, installed unit & told me to call in Feb when it's slow for the best deal. So, all in all, way better than I expected yesterday.
So, when's the next Rapha sale? :)

[Peter B]

The circuit breaker serving your HVAC is designed to protect the branch circuit against short circuits and ground faults. Additional protection is required for the motor-compressor against running overload conditions. Code requires a disconnecting means within sight of the motor (HVAC unit), so unless the branch breaker is in a panel outdoors within sight of the unit you will find an additional local disconnect at the unit. This disconnect may be fused or unfused, depending on the nameplate requirements of the unit and the UL-listing of the upstream branch breaker.The nameplate on the unit will call for "max fuse size" or "max fuse size or HACR breaker". Unless UL listed and marked as HACR-rated, the branch circuit breaker is not intended to provide running overload protection for the hermetic motor-compressor and fan and a fused local disconnect is required.

The small molded-case branch breaker typically utilizes a thermal magnetic trip unit with basic inverse-time capabilities. It is designed to be responsive to load with respect to time and, therefore, heat. The simple design is intended to allow continuous loading (and associated temperature rise) within it's rating and momentary inrush 3-6 times its rating to allow for motor current inrush on startup. HACR-rated breakers are further designed and listed to provide the required additional protection against running overloads and multi-motor combinations. The trip mechanism uses inexpensive electro-mechanical components to provide these various types of protection.

What all this means for you is that a loose (high resistance) connection at the wire binding screw terminal will result in excessive heat and temperature rise at the termination in response to load current flow over time, causing the breaker to trip. However, this wouldn't account for an immediate trip the first time you turned on the unit this season.

One simple test next time this happens would be to first turn off the local disconnect at the outdoor unit to isolate it from the branch circuit. Then energize the branch breaker. If it still trips, the problem lies in the branch wiring between the breaker and the line-side terminals of the local disconnect. This could also include a faulty branch breaker.

These breakers are basic commodity items which can and do fail. Unless you have an old Zinsco or Federal loadcenter replacements for most 2-pole HVAC-sized breakers are less than $30. Installation will take about 10 minutes. Note however that you can kill yourself if you do not know what you are doing so I suggest paying a qualified electrician to do the work.

I'd also start budgeting for that new HVAC unit. As a side benefit it will be more efficient and economical to operate.

[buddybikes]

Do you do regular maintenance/cleaning?

Actually we do, but not sure if it is a waste of money - 150.00 each.

[makoti]

Do you do regular maintenance/cleaning?

Actually we do, but not sure if it is a waste of money - 150.00 each.

No,and I've often wondered the same thing but more thinking it would be money well spent. Not sure.




What all this means for you is that a loose (high resistance) connection at the wire binding screw terminal will result in excessive heat and temperature rise at the termination in response to load current flow over time, causing the breaker to trip. However, this wouldn't account for an immediate trip the first time you turned on the unit this season.

Basically how it was explained to me. He said when he checked the breakers, the wires to this one were a bit loose & that could cause heat build up.
Yeah, it's on the radar now. Time to squirrel away the pennies.

[Tandem Rider]

Do you do regular maintenance/cleaning?

Actually we do, but not sure if it is a waste of money - 150.00 each.

In a nutshell, any A/C or heatpump in cooling mode just transfers heat from inside to outside. Cleaning improves the heat transfer, dirt is an insulator that lowers the rate of heat transfer. In layman' terms this means $ in energy usage and $ in reduced lifespan.