How much of an LBS premium are you willing to pay?

[Climb01742]

I do my best to support my local LBS. 90% of that is because of a mechanic who works there. He's wrenched my bikes for years. He's a great mechanic, incredibly meticulous and a really good guy to boot. If the shop stays in business, he stays employed, and I'm all for that.

Our own Ergott built me a set of wheels and they're going on a bike the mechanic is building up for me. I need a 6800 cassette for the wheels. I asked my mechanic what the shop's price was. $100 was the price quoted. A quick search told me Competitive Cyclist has it for $55 with free two-day shipping (the Amazon Prime effect) on orders over $50. I told the shop I'm willing to pay them a premium for what they do/offer that the internet can't but a 100% premium was too steep. They came back and said Shimano's MSRP on that cassette was $65.99 (wholesale was $43) and that was now their price. I said cool, I'm willing to pay a $10 (20%) premium to support the shop.

Which got me thinking. (Let's put aside for the moment the first attempt to charge $100.:no:) I'm trying to work out exactly what supporting my LBS is worth to me in dollars and cents. How much of a premium am I willing to pay them over what an internet outlet would charge me? The shop and mechanic are willing to hang parts on my bikes that I bring in and I appreciate that. But most of these are parts I already have, or are moving from one bike to another, so I don't see that as a huge deal. I get that shops have a harder time hanging brand new parts on a bike, parts they sell too. I'm all for buying parts at my LBS, but it must make financial sense, right? (As an aside, there's a mechanic I know who works out of their home and is 110% cool with hanging parts you bring to them that you bought on the web. So there are options, but I'd rather support the shop that employs my pal.)

So where would you draw the line? How much more would you pay to support your shop? 10%? 20%? 50%? Where's your line?

PS: Want to add, as Eric notes below, I'm happy to, and do, pay their going service rate for all work the shop/mechanic does. I never quibble for a dime on service rate, because a good mechanic is worth every penny.

[EricEstlund]

Any time I walk into a shop I am happy to pay straight list for an item, and a reasonable service rate if I am asking them to do any work for me.

[echelon_john]

I don't really use an LBS for anything, but my rule of thumb would be an inverse relationship between % markup/upcharge vs size of purchase.

For example, I'd have no problem going in and buying a tube or two for $8-10ea even though I can get them online for $2-4. Same with a water bottle, or a cable.

But if I were looking at wheels or a frame, for example, I might be willing to pay 10% more at the LBS but definitely not more.

[benb]

My LBS has drastically reduced prices on components and does some price matching.. it seems they are solvent on selling Trek and Specialized bikes/components/accessories. People coming in looking for cheap prices on components are a sliver of the customer base so they just decided to keep the business and match so that you keep coming in the store and inevitably buy other stuff that is more profitable for them.

[54ny77]

Ditto.

While I don't go there often, frankly I'd be embarrassed to haggle on parts or service at my go-to LBS. If I'm there, it's for a reason and whatever they charge, they charge and I pay it. The risk of me ham-fisting a part install or certain types of adjustments far outstrip the costs of a professional job done once and done right.


Any time I walk into a shop I am happy to pay straight list for an item, and a reasonable service rate if I am asking them to do any work for me.

[josephr]

Any time I walk into a shop I am happy to pay straight list for an item, and a reasonable service rate if I am asking them to do any work for me.

this -- I buy a lot online and also do a lot of my own maintenance, but if they're installing a headset or gonna help keep a wheelset true, then I buy through them...I want them there next time I need a part on the fly, etc. I also take them beer occasionally. :beer:

[Mr. Pink]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

[malcolm]

I'm willing to pay 10-20%. If it's wrenching I'm after I pay what they are asking. I do very little business with any of out local shops. They don't really sell the things I like and if they order it takes forever and the cost is way higher than what I can get it for myself. An example an older mtn bike of mine had hope brakes and I broke the lever mounts on both sides. I mostly keep it for others to ride so I didn't want to invest in hope brakes so I brought it to the shop to have them install XT brakes which I could have done myself. Well it would up taking twice as long as expected due to delays in shipping and for the cost I could have installed hopes or xtr and had plenty $$ to spare.

I really like the guy that owns one of our local shops and he has a long time wrench that is awesome. I have bought multiple kids bikes and my wifes first road bike and mtn bike and our townies from him. I refer beginners and people that want big box stuff and don't do their own work to him all the time, so I do support him but not directly.

I don't think we should feel a compunction to support any business. If they can't come up with a model that works then they need to go out of business and something that works will replace them. I guess what I'm saying is if you have to determine how much you are willing to pay extra then something isn't right. You should go in and lay your money down and feel good about it or exercise other options.

[Seramount]

depends on which shop...

have a national big-box shop less than a mile away that I'll occasionally use for the most basic items that I need asap. but, normally I try to avoid it if at all possible.

there's a very high-end place that just got some business from me for a build, but there were extenuating circumstances that precluded me from using a more cost-effective option. normally, I'm not one of their customers.

then there's the young-guns who run a funky little shop that principally caters to the university crowd but who do decent work and will often offer to do a minor fix while I wait.

[jmal]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

In my area, this is standard practice these days. When I worked in shops years ago we always charged below list. I'm not sure if this is a regional thing, or if the industry has changed their pricing structure.

[Joxster]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

Prey tell, what is your occupation?

[zap]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

So, in the grocery store............:help:

[FlashUNC]

I don't quibble much on product or service. Unless the price for a product is just outrageously over what you can find elsewhere, then I might bring it up.

But the reality for me is I like that I can walk down the street and get a problem fixed when I need it, and I'm willing to pay a premium for that. If me spending a couple extra bucks there keeps the lights on and puts beer money in the mechanic's pocket, so be it.

[oldpotatoe]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

You are being close-minded about margin. I won't use the other word that describes the above better. A bike shop should know their margin to break even. Generally accepted as 35 points(divide cost by .65) to break even, zero profit, zero net loss. In the example, $43 cost(assuming no shipping $ and not considering the shop cost to order, unpack, price and store-not free, and yes, should not charge $100, but not 'list'), $43 divided by .65 is $66.15. If they sell for less, they lose money. Be insulted all you want but do some research first. The 'playing field' is not flat.

[parris]

I think that for me a red flag would be the rapid change in price that a shop would flip on. The cassette was initially $100.00 but when the price difference was brought up it was quickly changed to what the shop claims is msrp.

Most of us have been around this and other activities where we realize that a physical location that actually offers a service needs to charge enough to keep the lights on. Many of us want to support those places and do it gladly. But the flip side of that is that any business that wants to stay open needs to not play pricing games.

For me like some others I'll pay a premium for item's that I need "right now". Otherwise my limit is 20-25% for big items that I can wait on.

[Anarchist]

Charges at the LBS's near me can be completely out of line. To be fair to the shops it is mostly at the feet of the distributors and wholesalers.

They charge the shops more to buy tires for resale than I pay for tires from overseas.

Most parts that I buy from the shop are things they don't even have in stock, so they are ordering them in for me. I am not willing to pay a full retail markup on something they just ordered and which their distributor charged them more for than I can pay as final price.

I might pay 10% on those things.

If I am jammed at work and don't have time to do a service on the bike I will take it in and gladly pay for service, but paying stupid premiums on parts and consumables just because of a flawed distributorship model? Nope.

[Ralph]

I don't see too many LBS owners with private jets or luxury cars.....so I assume it's not a high margin business, and they have to work hard to make it go.

Therefore.....I give them the business it makes sense for me to give them, and do the rest myself.

I have plenty of bike riding friends who will buy a bike from the LBS, have it serviced regularly there, etc. Some even pay so much a year in a charge for regular service when they buy the bike...along with a fit charge. They don't see it much different than taking their 335I in for regular service.

I don't believe a bike shop builds a business around customers like us. I know some decent strong riders (triathletes) who can't change a flat tire. They are big business in some shops.

The owner of the most successful bike shop in Central Florida told me years ago......you cannot make a living off bike racers and other serious enthusiasts. He credits much of his current sales to the huge expansion of 14' wide paved bike trails in our area. Where folks can go on long rides without being on the roads.

[echelon_john]

So I have a serious question that applies to bike shops and other retailers facing competition from online.

The example I'll use is shopping for bathroom tile, which we're in the process of. After going to a couple of local places where the 'design consultant' knew less about the products than we did after doing a bunch of research, we ordered some samples online from a place NOT close to us. Their price was very competitive, and even with shipping would be a pretty good deal.

Despite not being thrilled with their service, I popped back over to the tile shop, asked them if they could get the brand/type we'd found, and told them I'd prefer to buy locally if they could come close on price. Balancing out for shipping, tax (which we wouldn't be paying), etc, they came up with an all-in price about 10% higher than option B. I gladly paid the 10% more to buy locally, and they seemed happy that I'd given them the opportunity to make a sale. For me, the 10% premium got me lower risk of breakage/issues with shipping, and I was happy to support a local business that was willing to work with me. For them, it means they made margin of probably $1500 (instead of $2000-$2250) rather than zero.

So which is more better/worse for local retailers: having customers disappear (because they're buying online) or having customers negotiate price based on what they're finding elsewhere? It seems like a low-effort sale if someone comes in ready to buy and asking you to match/compete with a price.

Would a bike shop rather price match and make something, or lose the customer and make nothing?

[milkbaby]

I've paid $5 to $6 for tubes at the LBS when I've bought them for $3 or less online. So that's 100% more. I've paid full retail for cartridge bearings, socks, saddlebags, etc. On the other hand, I generally wouldn't pay that same premium for a cassette.

A few bucks more here and there I guess I'm fine with, but for me there's so many good deals online like on this forum, eBay, and online retailers, that I tend to just stock up when I see a really good deal.

Plus, I'm not a fan of taking my bicycle to the shop unless it's to do a ride from there or to chat with friends that work there. I prefer to do my own work unless I don't have the required tools or it is a hassle that I won't enjoy working on.

[milkbaby]

And to add, I've had this discussion with one of my riding buddies and manager at a store. He understands sometimes they just can't match the price but appreciate that I still give them some business as well as good word of mouth.

While there are a decent amount of people who like to do their own bike wrenching, I realized there are a lot more who don't. So I don't feel too bad about economizing because I'm not the typical target clientele of the LBS.

[93legendti]

I look at a store as more than just an online purchase distribution center.

If I like the price I buy it- this generally means (as with all things I have ouch asked since 2008) that I only buy items that are on sale, unless it is an emergency or tires, tubes, cables, etc. (re bike stuff).

[Gummee]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.

Says the guy not trying desperately trying to keep the doors open...

We really don't make all that much on 'stuff.' Labor? Sure. Stuff? Not so much.

M

[Gummee]

Would a bike shop rather price match and make something, or lose the customer and make nothing?

This depends on a few factors: what kind of thing you're ordering (as in: can we get it and still make $) how fast you want it, who you are, etc.

Yes, regular customers tend to get preferential treatment. We know they're coming back over and over. Spend more $$ in the shop, get a discount. Show up every blue moon and you'll probably get charged full-pop.

If you show up every blue moon and demand a discount, that's pretty much a douche move.

I don't have a problem installing things bought online. ...but if you DO bring it to me from online, you're probably getting charged full labor rates. Lots of times, if you buy something here, installation will be less (if needed)

Old joke: how do you make a small fortune in the bike business? Start with a big one. None of us that aren't named Sinyard are getting rich...

That answer your question as far as *this* shop is concerned?

M

[adub]

Depends on the item and purchase- If it's something they have in stock, consumables like cassettes, chains, tires, lube, clothing,etc I will obviously pay whatever the sticker says.

If I am ordering a frame, parts, and non-stocked items for a custom build I will request a quote and I would expect not to pay MSRP when going this route. If its all stuff they are special ordering (generally the case with a custom build and parts) I am paying a 50% up front deposit and the balance when they are done. The business owner did not have carrying costs on inventory, etc. I have built 3 bikes this route, never asked for a discount but the 2 shops I deal with have quoted showing the discount and outlining terms.

I work as a project manager/sales rep for a small contracting business and I welcome my customers to discuss my pricing, and certainly hope they let me know when they get better pricing on a similar product/service and give me the opportunity to match if comparing apples:apples.

[echelon_john]

Thanks for the response. I guess I see a difference between "demanding a discount" and "offering to swing you some business if you can get close." Or is that just a matter of being on the giving or receiving end of the offer?

If a random guy walked in on a February afternoon and asked if you could order something at a price that would make you $500 instead of $1000 and offered to pre-pay, would you do it? Zero/very little effort, 'found' money. I'm genuinely curious. (and promise not to show up in February! ; )


This depends on a few factors: what kind of thing you're ordering (as in: can we get it and still make $) how fast you want it, who you are, etc.

Yes, regular customers tend to get preferential treatment. We know they're coming back over and over. Spend more $$ in the shop, get a discount. Show up every blue moon and you'll probably get charged full-pop.

If you show up every blue moon and demand a discount, that's pretty much a douche move.

I don't have a problem installing things bought online. ...but if you DO bring it to me from online, you're probably getting charged full labor rates. Lots of times, if you buy something here, installation will be less (if needed)

Old joke: how do you make a small fortune in the bike business? Start with a big one. None of us that aren't named Sinyard are getting rich...

That answer your question as far as *this* shop is concerned?

M

[unterhausen]

I pay whatever the LBS asks. It's not like they are getting rich. Sometimes I know they aren't even having fun.

I do sometimes reverse showroom the internet, just so I know what I'm getting into. It's amazing how often the LBS beats the internet without trying, and I can walk down there and get my part whenever it comes in without worrying about my wife finding out about it

[Russian bear]

I ordered some shimano consumables (DA cassette, Ultegra chain) for less than I could have bought it at the shop.

Oh and I work at said shop.

[oldpotatoe]

So I have a serious question that applies to bike shops and other retailers facing competition from online.

The example I'll use is shopping for bathroom tile, which we're in the process of. After going to a couple of local places where the 'design consultant' knew less about the products than we did after doing a bunch of research, we ordered some samples online from a place NOT close to us. Their price was very competitive, and even with shipping would be a pretty good deal.

Despite not being thrilled with their service, I popped back over to the tile shop, asked them if they could get the brand/type we'd found, and told them I'd prefer to buy locally if they could come close on price. Balancing out for shipping, tax (which we wouldn't be paying), etc, they came up with an all-in price about 10% higher than option B. I gladly paid the 10% more to buy locally, and they seemed happy that I'd given them the opportunity to make a sale. For me, the 10% premium got me lower risk of breakage/issues with shipping, and I was happy to support a local business that was willing to work with me. For them, it means they made margin of probably $1500 (instead of $2000-$2250) rather than zero.

So which is more better/worse for local retailers: having customers disappear (because they're buying online) or having customers negotiate price based on what they're finding elsewhere? It seems like a low-effort sale if someone comes in ready to buy and asking you to match/compete with a price.

Would a bike shop rather price match and make something, or lose the customer and make nothing?

But if they sell below the margin to break even, they are losing money. If they don't sell the widget at all, it's still an asset to the shop since they own it. Sell below margin is on the 'other' side of the balance sheet. The ONLY way to get around that is with volume, big volume. But if volume falls even a little, same result. GOOB sale. Ask circuit city or ultimate electronics.

Smart inventory control, finding and staying with certain distributors, controlling expenses, do smart pre season buying....matching places who are actually distributors selling direct=goingoutofbiz sale.

[Red Tornado]

Parts I will buy from the LBS: tubes, Co2, bar tape, cables/housings/etc, lube, chains, gloves, socks, tools & the occasional pair of bibs. I don't haggle on this stuff, just cough up the money. Most of these, except maybe the bibs depending on brand, are not savings account busters so I don't mind paying a bit extra. I'm throwing some business their way and I'm in the store consistently enough where they know my face.

Parts I usually don't buy from LBS but rather on line are things like: wheels, tires, derailleurs, shifters, cranksets, cockpit parts, pedals and frames. Seems like the guys around here are no truly where near competitive on those items. Maybe volume has something to do with it? I'm guessing they just don't move as many of these items as they will the parts in my first list. Could also be the "not-so-level" playing field between shops & Internet retailers (from another thread). Plus, the shops usually don't have my go-to brand(s), which is OK - can't expect them to stock everything. I have bought parts like these from shops in 23+ years of riding, but those purchases have been few and far between.

This method seems to work fairly well for me, as they have done some wrenching (jobs I don't have tools for), sometimes on short notice, with no problems. I always pay whatever their shop rate is for labor - no questions asked. I also don't try to rush them. Seems like they appreciate that, since so many riders nowadays come in and want the repair turned around "now". If they tell me they're running behind or can't get to it immediately, I tell them no problem just take your time, can't rush quality.

I think I have found a pretty decent balance - for me at least.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Like some others, I go to the shop for smaller items. I also purchase gifts at the LBS so friends can return/exchange easily.

LBS is a weird dynamic compared to tile or something because we all love bikes and often know the owner who organizes group rides, etc.

As I get older and have less time and more money, I find myself going to the LBS more.

Something unfortunate is that I don't even check the LBS for some stuff because I suspect it is cheaper online and I hate going in for something like a cassette and seeing it marked as double the online price and walking out. I feel like a douche and avoid that.

[BobbyJones]

Did you ask them why they were trying to milk you for $100?

Reminds me of the time I bought a car.. called around, knew what I wanted and explained I wasn't haggling and just wanted the best deal they could do. My pitch was "It's your sale to lose..."

On the way to dealer A to buy (who gave me the best price on the phone), I passed by a dealer B (who I didn't call) and stopped in. Right off the bat they gave me a much better deal than dealer A.

Called Dealer A to cancel, got an earful. Reminded him that it was his sale to lose. Then the swearing started.

Some people. Sheesh.

[CampyorBust]

In short I support me getting the best deal possible, if necessity trumps financial goals then usually the shop wins, if not the internets. If the shop is willing to play ball and is able to recognize/values a customer who wont bend over well then a beautiful symbiosis occurs and may blossom into a dealer/junkie relationship – I love these but they are rare these days.

:confused: Campy, Enve and DW link I need some high end stuff please (snifle snifle snort snort)
:cool:Yo man I got yo Campy over here…
:help:Yah man can you spare some Campy, can ya? Can ya? Do you have lay away, monthly installments?
:cool:Motha F… go see my buddy he’s got some Shim Sham and Charbon to get you though the season. (and his buddy :p wants $5k for a Chinarello):crap:

On a number of occasions I thought I had found shops that would play ball I quote “you will get deals not steals” (ok fair enough) only to come back with prices MSRP and above. Meh I never set foot in there again. Your word is your bond.

I have no problem supporting an LBS (I have no shop affiliations). Which is always on the small stuff, for the convenience of buying it there and then is great and I have no problem paying a tad bit extra for it. However on the larger stuff like actual bikes and components I can be a terror of a frugal fanny and picker of nits. For me it is out of necessity I HAVE to get the best bang for my buck or I just wont buy. I am not exactly rolling in the dough and if I had the means to support a shop completely I probably would and I too would expect to pay no more than $65 MSRP (at the very least if not wiith a nice discount) and you probably have sales tax on top of that. That $100 price is ridiculous and the fact that a shop that you frequent and have supported for years tried to let that stick would not sit well with me at all. I am not sure I would return, must be a damn good mechanic. Actually there are fair few out there great dudes and dudets.

What really rubs me the wrong way are people who count other peoples money. E.g. a shop that takes note of the kind of car you drive and what they perceive your financial standings are and charge you based on that. I see red when this happens. Prices, charges and labor estimates should be consistent across the board. Alas we are a profit driven society, someday perhaps…

Its always nice to have a shop price match but getting there is not exactly a pleasant experience always. Which is why now I avoid asking and just take to the internet and they end up loosing a sale. This stinks for all involved except for the flees that take their nibble and move on to the next dog.

So yeah shops win when necessity trumps financial constrictions and goals. For example after my water bottle learning thread I was hankering for some Arundels, and I missed out on two on fleebay just the right model and color for $40! I waited until I needed a water bottle cage asap so I ended up with another Bontrager cage from an LBS:crap:. The cage is meh, no bling but seems to function as intended.:o

Meow.

[RedRider]

Just to clarify. In February, Shimano USA cut wholesale/msrp by approx 25-35% on most of their products. Yes, an Ultegra cassette was about $100 BEFORE the cut and about $65 afterwards.
This did two things: 1- US pricing came closer in line with the euro-etailers 2- Shimano inventory at bike shops lost 25-35% value.

[Jim9112]

I haven't had a shop work on my bikes in what seems like forever. If I head into a shop it's because I want to see something in person first or try something on. I'm willing to pay extra for that. I'm also not going to be that guy that try's on the shoes and walks out and orders them online. I have a friend who is a shop mechanic who has taught me a lot over the years so ill occasionally stop in for some lube or brake pads and a friendly conversation. I'm also willing to pay a few bucks more for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[beeatnik]

The 'playing field' is not flat.

The world might be....

http://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-3-0-History-Twenty-first/dp/0312425074/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464029510&sr=1-1&keywords=the+world+is+flat

[makoti]

Am I asking advice on an item I'm buying? I'll pay what they are asking, because I get the product and expertise.
Am I getting something they have in stock, but I know what I want? How soon do I need/want it? Now? I'll pay what they are asking. Can I wait? I'll pay 10-20% more than online because I get it faster.
Am I getting something they need to order, so I have to wait either way? No more than 10% more.
I get almost all my service done there. They carry almost no brands I'd wear, so there isn't much to spend my money on, anyway.

[livingminimal]

I pay list -20%. That discount has been going since I became a regular at the shop and pretty much pledged my eternal allegiance to the shop, corroborated with a series of Yelp reviews stating as much. I never asked for that or any discount. When I send an email I usually get a response that says "your price is..."

I also get a ton of my maintenance and general tech work done at no cost. I rarely, as in almost never, bring them something I didn't buy. When I have, it's usually because of some weird confluence of trades that landed me a piece I wanted to experiment with or something, or used on PL.

I never buy anything from any other retailer. Ever. I've done it in the past and I do not feel good about it, because I will at some point be at the shop with the product, either lining up for a ride, or just hanging out, etc.

I will support my shop, this shop, until the day either I die or the shop does.

That said, I would never build another relationship like this with another shop locally. Everything here is big-box style, or jock jams, or whatever. My shop has panache, a love of bicycle riding, a love of racing lore and history, cold beer in the fridge, a malfunctioning espresso machine, and surly characters.

If my shop did die, I'd be buying online and learning what I needed to do myself or paying someone just for service. With a partially broken heart.

[Clancy]

So I have a serious question that applies to bike shops and other retailers facing competition from online.

The example I'll use is shopping for bathroom tile, which we're in the process of. After going to a couple of local places where the 'design consultant' knew less about the products than we did after doing a bunch of research, we ordered some samples online from a place NOT close to us. Their price was very competitive, and even with shipping would be a pretty good deal.

Despite not being thrilled with their service, I popped back over to the tile shop, asked them if they could get the brand/type we'd found, and told them I'd prefer to buy locally if they could come close on price. Balancing out for shipping, tax (which we wouldn't be paying), etc, they came up with an all-in price about 10% higher than option B. I gladly paid the 10% more to buy locally, and they seemed happy that I'd given them the opportunity to make a sale. For me, the 10% premium got me lower risk of breakage/issues with shipping, and I was happy to support a local business that was willing to work with me. For them, it means they made margin of probably $1500 (instead of $2000-$2250) rather than zero.

So which is more better/worse for local retailers: having customers disappear (because they're buying online) or having customers negotiate price based on what they're finding elsewhere? It seems like a low-effort sale if someone comes in ready to buy and asking you to match/compete with a price.

Would a bike shop rather price match and make something, or lose the customer and make nothing?

You give an excellent example, but here in lies the problem. Customer "A" does your approach and gets a part at a discount. customer "B" pays full list. After enough of this a business gets the reputation of not being consistent or fair with pricing, playing favorites.

In this day and age, I feel somewhat for the small business owner. But, at the same time, living on the fixed salary of a state employee, I have to budget my money.

[quauhnahuac]

the responses in this thread from bike shop owners really seem to reveal the "old" mentality and give good insight into why bike shops with this mindset are unable/unwilling to adapt to a changing marketplace and end up going out of business. it comes across as stubborn, for lack of a better word, and is a shame that talented mechanics lose their jobs when a store goes out of business because the old guard refused to adapt

[weisan]

I stopped going to or buying anything from lbs ever since I discovered that I can find better deals here or online, same with information or advice on how to fix my own bikes. So, that was more than 12-15 years ago.

But recently, I had to go through Bicycle Sports Shop (an LBS in Austin) to handle the recall of a Zipp wheel. They were more than generous with their time so I intend to bring a crate of Guinness Stout tomorrow when I pick the wheel up as a way of saying thank you. I also bought a couple of Specialized tires that were on promotion currently (buy one get one free). The store prices of these tires were the same as online but I saved on shipping.

Bottom line is: There got to be compeling reason for me to use an LBS, if not, I simply don't.

[Gummee]

I ordered some shimano consumables (DA cassette, Ultegra chain) for less than I could have bought it at the shop.

Oh and I work at said shop.

I do too on occasion.

The Euro sites sell for retail what I pay wholesale.

Makes things tough

M

[beeatnik]

I pay list -20%. That discount has been going since I became a regular at the shop and pretty much pledged my eternal allegiance to the shop, corroborated with a series of Yelp reviews stating as much. I never asked for that or any discount. When I send an email I usually get a response that says "your price is..."

I also get a ton of my maintenance and general tech work done at no cost. I rarely, as in almost never, bring them something I didn't buy. When I have, it's usually because of some weird confluence of trades that landed me a piece I wanted to experiment with or something, or used on PL.

I never buy anything from any other retailer. Ever. I've done it in the past and I do not feel good about it, because I will at some point be at the shop with the product, either lining up for a ride, or just hanging out, etc.

I will support my shop, this shop, until the day either I die or the shop does.

That said, I would never build another relationship like this with another shop locally. Everything here is big-box style, or jock jams, or whatever. My shop has panache, a love of bicycle riding, a love of racing lore and history, cold beer in the fridge, a malfunctioning espresso machine, and surly characters.

If my shop did die, I'd be buying online and learning what I needed to do myself or paying someone just for service. With a partially broken heart.

D, I respect your style.

Could never play it the way you do because as a former shop rat, I came to the sad conclusion that there are no friends in business (or was that love and war?). That said my LBS does about 10 full builds a year for me at half the going local labor rate and I refer at least one person a month to them. I think I bought one chain and a water bottle there in 2015.

That said the relationship above can't be described as all business. I get a great price, sure, but I'm mainly buying piece of mind. I know they won't rip me off. I know I can bring a frame and parts in at noon on a Friday and the bike will be ready by Friday evening. They like me and I like them as our relationship is transparent. Now, there's a nearby shop which carries the clothing line with which I'm intimately involved. I'll never bring a frame and parts to them (their wrench is the most knowledgeable in the area). See, if I brought them my bika then the relationship would become personal (as my expectations are rigid) and that would probably ruin the business relationship. Wacky, I know.

Oh, to answer the OP's question, a 20% premium is qoo for coffee, tubes, rim tape, cheap sunglasses, socks and headset spacers

[ripvanrando]

I pay full price when I buy something at a local bike shop.

The local bike shops almost never have what I need and I'm forced to shop online.

[RedRider]

And when the local charity rides want mechanical support, little leagues need sponsors... I can always click the Ribble banner at the top of this page...

[nate2351]

Just to clarify. In February, Shimano USA cut wholesale/msrp by approx 25-35% on most of their products. Yes, an Ultegra cassette was about $100 BEFORE the cut and about $65 afterwards.
This did two things: 1- US pricing came closer in line with the euro-etailers 2- Shimano inventory at bike shops lost 25-35% value.

To add, I'd like to ask everyone here to guess how much Shimano reimbursed shops for having to sell their old inventory at below their previous cost.

That would be ZERO.

[OtayBW]

In those (now rare) cases when I have gotten to know and become friends with LBS staff and ownership, I would tend to get what I need/want, and spend little time thinking about how I could save a buck online. Unfortunately, that was elsewhere. I rarely frequent most of the local shops around here either because of less than stellar experiences with repair (or cost), or because I just didn't feel very welcome.

There is one shop that I've run across here locally recently that I am glad to say is a good exception....

[biker72]

To add, I'd like to ask everyone here to guess how much Shimano reimbursed shops for having to sell their old inventory at below their previous cost.

That would be ZERO.

That would be 100% correct.
The bike shop owners where I work are still pissed at Shimano.

[gemship]

I wonder how many people here really need to take their bikes in for service? I mean if you have a bike built right the first time with high quality parts how often or possible is it to need much of any service?

[ofcounsel]

I wonder how many people here really need to take their bikes in for service? I mean if you have a bike built right the first time with high quality parts how often or possible is it to need much of any service?

I do from time to time, on my MTBs. For example, I prefer not to service my own shocks and forks when it comes time for maintenance. I also choose not to bleed my own brakes. I pay the local shop to do this. I pay them what they charge, and I pay them full retail for the parts I use. It's all good.

Al

[gemship]

I do from time to time, on my MTBs. For example, I prefer not to service my own shocks and forks when it comes time for maintenance. I also choose not to bleed my own brakes. I pay the local shop to do this. I pay them what they charge, and I pay them full retail for the parts I use. It's all good.

Al

Yeah I could agree with that. I would imagine suspension tuning to be somewhat of an art in itself. I also recall an old Kawasaki dirtbike I had that I couldn't for the life of me bleed the air out of a brake line that I replaced.The shop said they had a neat little vacuum tool for that... Hey your a sportbike buff as I recall so you can appreciate this...I ride a k6 1000 only on the road with dreams of a trackday so anyways. To save some money I get good deals on tires thru Ebay but because of a bad experience with tire irons scratching the lips of my mags on a different bike I once owned plus a lot of swearing and cussing and a hard time seating beads I like to take the wheels and tires to the motorcycle shop. They really do a nice job although they do charge a pretty penny for a half hour labor to mount and balance the tires on wheels. It's worth it though. Currently my bike is on track stands and the wheels are at the shop. I would like to get the tires there as well but honestly I get them for half the price on Ebay. Nice to be able to just drop off the wheels and tires without asking someone for a ride home if I left the whole bike there as well.

[oldpotatoe]

the responses in this thread from bike shop owners really seem to reveal the "old" mentality and give good insight into why bike shops with this mindset are unable/unwilling to adapt to a changing marketplace and end up going out of business. it comes across as stubborn, for lack of a better word, and is a shame that talented mechanics lose their jobs when a store goes out of business because the old guard refused to adapt

Not true at all(as a former bike shop owner) Unfortunately it's just not that simple and certainly not an 'old fart' mindset problem. US bike shops buy from distributors, for good or ill. To match $ or sell big bunches of stuff online, ya gotta sell big bunches of stuff online-volume. If you don't have volume and you can't reduce cost as a retailer, you either match $ and eventually go out of biz or sell at the margin to keep the lights on. To pay for your monthly fixed expenses.

You buy from a distributor a widget for $43. That same distributor sells direct that same widget for $50. What do you suggest? How does a LBS adapt? Your comments reek of lack of knowledge of retail in general and bike retail specifically.

[nmrt]

i dont get this response.
wasnt the lbs charging $100 for the cassette? Now that is a big markup -- not the "divide by 0.65" that you've suggested.

Not true at all(as a former bike shop owner) Unfortunately it's just not that simple and certainly not an 'old fart' mindset problem. US bike shops buy from distributors, for good or ill. To match $ or sell big bunches of stuff online, ya gotta sell big bunches of stuff online-volume. If you don't have volume and you can't reduce cost as a retailer, you either match $ and eventually go out of biz or sell at the margin to keep the lights on. To pay for your monthly fixed expenses.

You buy from a distributor a widget for $43. That same distributor sells direct that same widget for $50. What do you suggest? How does a LBS adapt? Your comments reek of lack of knowledge of retail in general and bike retail specifically.

[adub]

The sad reality is retail brick-and-mortar businesses such as independently owned bike shops are a dying breed. Direct to retail is becoming the norm for many products including bikes.

[nate2351]

i dont get this response.
wasnt the lbs charging $100 for the cassette? Now that is a big markup -- not the "divide by 0.65" that you've suggested.

As was noted previously in the thread Shimano did a running price change in January. Anything bought before that had to be sold at the new price and shops lost money on all of these transactions.

[59Bassman]

I'm currently weighing this myself.

I am researching/in the market for my first Ti bike. I have 2 LBS that work with Ti frame vendors. One is a Moots dealer, the other is Seven. I'm not (yet) a competent bike wrencher, so I will be buying a built bike. Cost will be roughly equivalent between dealers, but I would pay sales tax on top of that.

Another alternative would be a 2 hour drive to a fitter that works with a very well respected builder. Or I can go with a 6 hour drive to another frame builder I find interesting. Either of these choices would likely net me a full-up bike delivered to my house, again for roughly the same price, sans sales tax (yes, I know about use tax).

Currently I'm leaning towards one of my LBS for the bike. I like the idea of supporting the local economy. I like the idea of starting to build a longer-term relationship with one of my bike shops. Will it cost me a couple hundred more? Most likely. But I believe that local retail establishments are the first contact for a lot of the hobbies I enjoy. When I have the the choice, if I don't support my local shop, I have no basis to complain when I can't get what I need the night before an event, or if I can't find other folks in my community to share my hobby with.

[weiwentg]

You generally can't get big discounts on shoes online, afaik. But even if one could, I would be willing to pay a significant premium at the LBS for shoes or any item which required fit expertise.

[Lanternrouge]

I'm currently weighing this myself.

I am researching/in the market for my first Ti bike. I have 2 LBS that work with Ti frame vendors. One is a Moots dealer, the other is Seven. I'm not (yet) a competent bike wrencher, so I will be buying a built bike. Cost will be roughly equivalent between dealers, but I would pay sales tax on top of that.

Another alternative would be a 2 hour drive to a fitter that works with a very well respected builder. Or I can go with a 6 hour drive to another frame builder I find interesting. Either of these choices would likely net me a full-up bike delivered to my house, again for roughly the same price, sans sales tax (yes, I know about use tax).

Currently I'm leaning towards one of my LBS for the bike. I like the idea of supporting the local economy. I like the idea of starting to build a longer-term relationship with one of my bike shops. Will it cost me a couple hundred more? Most likely. But I believe that local retail establishments are the first contact for a lot of the hobbies I enjoy. When I have the the choice, if I don't support my local shop, I have no basis to complain when I can't get what I need the night before an event, or if I can't find other folks in my community to share my hobby with.

It's totally worth it in your case to go through the LBS. It's going to be totally worth it in terms of tweaking fittings, etc. and you never know, you might get some other stuff discounted when you buy the full bike. You will be happy no matter which bike you get. Also, think about the value of your time in having to drive a ways for a fitting, etc. if you can get something of equal expertise locally.

[Joxster]

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

[MTB81]

Your bikeshop is not trying to screw you. They're trying to stay open.

[oldpotatoe]

i dont get this response.
wasnt the lbs charging $100 for the cassette? Now that is a big markup -- not the "divide by 0.65" that you've suggested.

As mentioned, shimano lowered their MSRP and cost by like 35%..so the $100 amount was accurate until then.

[Climb01742]

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Not an apples-to-apples comparison. It's a strawman construct. There is no online option to what doctors do. An apt analogy is buying a book, do you use Amazon or your local book shop? It has the same plus/minus outcomes, where something valuable (a local bookshop) might disappear. But the real question is, how much is it incumbent on the customer to help a local shop survive vs how much is incumbent on the local retailer to react wisely to the online retail revolution.

If a local book shop simply chose to act like Amazon didn't exist and only offered books at full list, would we say that owner was acting like a smart or dumb businessperson?

The answer feels like customers and shops must meet somewhere in the middle. One example: if a customer brings in bike parts bought online is there a slightly higher service rate to install those? Create a two-tier service pricing structure. One for store-bought items and one, slightly higher rate for online parts you bring in? Just a thought. But the answer has to be some middle ground that acknowledges two realities:

1. Customers can get bigger ticket items (frames, group sets, wheels, some high-end handlebars, etc) for far less online.

2. Shops need to make enough to survive.

For a shop to act like #1 doesn't exist just doesn't feel workable long-term...just like a book shop acting like Amazon doesn't exist.

PS: In my business, advertising, clients ask for discounts every single day. Downward pressure on pricing is a constant reality in what I do. And the web is driving much of that. Google and Facebook and Snapchat are my industries version of Amazon. I can't ignore their pricing structures. Refusing to adapt is a ticket to failure.

[Formulasaab]

I use a "head in the sand" approach to shopping at my LBS. Meaning, I don't comparison shop.

I choose to patronize it for a variety of reasons. Chief among them are:


It is the best LBS in the area (my estimation), and I support that.
They have become friends and riding buddies, and I highly value friends and riding buddies.
The owner is a neighbor, so I am putting money directly into my local economy, which I consider important to the health of the neighborhood.
For a while last year, they gave me a convenient job when I needed one. I wish to give back for that.
They support local cycling (race sponsorship, volunteering at local cycling charities, trail maintenance, education, advocacy, trail maps, etc.)
I can use the shop as a pre or mid-ride stop for water/coffee (free) or food/supplies, which can save an otherwise doomed ride.
There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.


There are other reasons, but those are the highlights. Because of those highlights, I don't care to waste my time on internet shopping.

[sitzmark]

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Depending on the private or public insurance matrix of a given medical market, price shopping may actually be a motivating factor in service selection. Also general ignorance of biochemistry and physiology leaves a vast customer base at the "mercy" of the highly educated and regulated provider network.

Why expect a discount? Kind of a "loaded question". Anyone who's been "in business" - any business (sales, general management, business owner) - knows you go to work every day competing for customer dollars. If you can't justify your worth on the customer's terms you simply don't get the business. Yes, even in medicine where provider networks are negotiated. Team members "not on the front line" are somewhat immune to those realities.

Many cycling customers are like uniformed patients - they don't possess the knowledge to make unassisted decisions about which product to purchase or how to service a product once owned. The more informed the customer, the more cost-conscious and value oriented the customer will be ... generally speaking. Enthusiast cyclists with (or without) large discretionary spending resources may choose to value personal relationships over absolute value.

Regarding the original question, I'm willing to pay whatever premium I deem reasonable for what I need at the moment. Usually that relates to services rather than product for me. What I won't do is use an LBS to do my research (knowledge, fit, etc.) and then shop elsewhere for price.

[Gummee]

The sad reality is retail brick-and-mortar businesses such as independently owned bike shops are a dying breed. Direct to retail is becoming the norm for many products including bikes.

That's great for the end user till they have to fix something.

The customer base for the *typical* (IME) bike shop isn't the enthusiast. The typical customer rides a hybrid or mtn bike for pleasure a few times/month or even few times/year. 99% don't race or have ever thought of entertaining the notion of racing (to include 'training' rather than 'JRA')

AMHIK

M

[pdonk]

Here is my recent experiece in trying to buy bont shoes at a btick and mortar store.

Asked distributor for closest shop. Called shop to check stock. Told the size I wanted was in stock. Got there size I wanted was only in stock in model I did not want. Asked to order the ones I wanted. Told they could not tell me when I'd get them. I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. I left.

Ordered on line for 50% less and got them in 2 weeks. The moulding was easy enough so not sure what value the store would have added. If they had been in stock 100% would have been ok as I wanted them quickly. But bad service and no delivery date was not worth it.

[Gummee]

Here is my recent experiece in trying to buy bont shoes at a btick and mortar store.

Asked distributor for closest shop. Called shop to check stock. Told the size I wanted was in stock. Got there size I wanted was only in stock in model I did not want. Asked to order the ones I wanted. Told they could not tell me when I'd get them. I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. I left.

Ordered on line for 50% less and got them in 2 weeks. The moulding was easy enough so not sure what value the store would have added. If they had been in stock 100% would have been ok as I wanted them quickly. But bad service and no delivery date was not worth it.Bont is a special case. They're an 'issue' kind of company.

I did their online fit thing to order my Vaypors. Came in. I was all excited till I tried em on and realized that they were at least 2 sizes too small.

By the time I'd gotten mine, they were sold out of all of em.

So... The nutshell is 'don't judge an LBS by a Bont purchase' 'cause sometimes we just can't get em.

M

[makoti]

Bont is a special case. They're an 'issue' kind of company....
So... The nutshell is 'don't judge an LBS by a Bont purchase' 'cause sometimes we just can't get em.

M

"I told them I'd look at other shoes at store. Sales guy left and didn't come back. "
Agree, but I'd judge them on that.

[livingminimal]

D, I respect your style.

Could never play it the way you do because as a former shop rat, I came to the sad conclusion that there are no friends in business

I hear you. I consider myself lucky. Other shops I have had relationships with over time have been very, very different. Like I said, when this one is over for whatever reason, I wouldn't even attempt to do this with another shop. It would be buy online/work myself, or try to get a relationship like you have where it's all business.

[Ti Designs]

There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.



That knowledge and experience goes along with seeing the big picture. When I'm selling a customer parts, I'm looking at his bike, so I know it's gonna play well with the rest of the bike. Knowing what I do about the generations of parts and which ones don't work together, I would have a hard time selling parts without seeing the rest of the bike.

I'm now in the same boat when buying photography equipment. I just switched to the Cokin filter system, the on-line stores had info, but only about the part being sold, not how it's gonna work with my lens. I left the camera store thinking it was both time and money well spent.

[Formulasaab]

And when the local charity rides want mechanical support, little leagues need sponsors... I can always click the Ribble banner at the top of this page...

:hello:
(One of) my points, illustrated cleverly.

[ptourkin]

I use a "head in the sand" approach to shopping at my LBS. Meaning, I don't comparison shop.

I choose to patronize it for a variety of reasons. Chief among them are:


It is the best LBS in the area (my estimation), and I support that.
They have become friends and riding buddies, and I highly value friends and riding buddies.
The owner is a neighbor, so I am putting money directly into my local economy, which I consider important to the health of the neighborhood.
For a while last year, they gave me a convenient job when I needed one. I wish to give back for that.
They support local cycling (race sponsorship, volunteering at local cycling charities, trail maintenance, education, advocacy, trail maps, etc.)
I can use the shop as a pre or mid-ride stop for water/coffee (free) or food/supplies, which can save an otherwise doomed ride.
There is such a thing as knowledge and experience that hasn't been made available on the internet. I seem to require that occasionally.


There are other reasons, but those are the highlights. Because of those highlights, I don't care to waste my time on internet shopping.

Yes. All of these reasons. I support a few. One for huge purchases and a couple in the hood. I consider the owners friends and riding partners and they employ my friends and riding partners. I will gladly keep my "head in the sand" if that is necessary to keep my community strong.

I pick things up on here and occasionally some online rubber, but I want to take care of the people around me who take care of me. It's worth a few bucks.

[weiwentg]

When you go to the Doctors/Hospital do you ask for a discount? Why should you expect a discount in a retail enviroment? Do you all ask for a 10-20% off you food shop in the supermarket? Now put the shoe on the other foot and how would you feel if you were expected to give a discount off every job you did

Someone else already answered this, but I wanted to elaborate on health insurance: your health insurance company already negotiates the discount for you. That is why you don't expect a discount when you go in, because all you owe is the copayment/deductible.

[purpurite]

The only LBS that carries anything even remotely similar to what I want to buy is known for grossly overpricing everything, due to the heavy walleted clientele in this area. Unfortunately, that means $12 tubes, $20 water bottles and $15 used take off wheel skewers.

I would never use them for service, as I prefer to do all of my own. It's a better investment for me to buy a specialty tool once than pay a bike shop to do a simple job (unless it's a job like facing a BB shell or tapping a strange thread), and even then, I'll seek out someone not gouging the price of the work.

If a record shop, bike shop, hobby shop or other specialty store is offering me something as an added value to the simple purchase of an item, I'll always patronize them. However, I have found that since the internet has forced small companies to adapt, the counter-intuitive result of offering LESS to a shopper has happened more often than not.

Straight cash, I'd be willing to spend 10-15% more than online prices for something if I absolutely needed it, but that doesn't happen often. I have actually walked out of shops where the sticker price was so grossly over listed that I went home and ordered multiples of those "small items" to have in reserve, usually paying not much more than one item off the shelf.

Sorry, if I grossly overcharged for my work, I'd be out of business. It works for everyone. I don't expect my clients to pay more just because we're a small shop, or local, or "not a franchise."

[Mr. Pink]

You are being close-minded about margin. I won't use the other word that describes the above better. A bike shop should know their margin to break even. Generally accepted as 35 points(divide cost by .65) to break even, zero profit, zero net loss. In the example, $43 cost(assuming no shipping $ and not considering the shop cost to order, unpack, price and store-not free, and yes, should not charge $100, but not 'list'), $43 divided by .65 is $66.15. If they sell for less, they lose money. Be insulted all you want but do some research first. The 'playing field' is not flat.


Or, life is not fair? Dude, it's 2016. I mean, I want to support the local shop, but, I'm not going to treat them as a charity case, which is the reasoning some are making here. But, what I think isn't the point. Brick and mortar retail is doomed, slowly, but surely. Sorry.

[nate2351]

Brick and mortar retail is doomed, slowly, but surely. Sorry.

No, its just going to get really expensive.

[Cicli]

I was in Madison yesterday and decided to check out a local shop. The guy greeted me when I walked in and asked what I was looking for. My reply, nothing in particular. I was visiting from out of town and just doing a bit of shopping after work. He informed me that he had alot more inventory than was out on the floor. Cool. I looked around and found a dusty Campy cable kit. Into the basket it went. Asked him if he happened to have any old quill stems, he laughed. Ok, how about some leather bar tape, nope. Ok, some nice tires. He said Gatorskins were the best. I asked about some Vittorias or Veloflex. Nope.
He asked me about my bike. Steel with Campy. He recomended a carbon frame with sram. No kidding. He said Campy quit trying at 11 speed and sram was the way to go. Steel was old and heavy.
I put my stuff back and ordered a cable kit online from the car.
I will never be back there.
Why cant they sell me what I want instead of what they think I need? Holy smokes.

[SoCalSteve]

D, I respect your style.

Could never play it the way you do because as a former shop rat, I came to the sad conclusion that there are no friends in business (or was that love and war?). That said my LBS does about 10 full builds a year for me at half the going local labor rate and I refer at least one person a month to them. I think I bought one chain and a water bottle there in 2015.

That said the relationship above can't be described as all business. I get a great price, sure, but I'm mainly buying piece of mind. I know they won't rip me off. I know I can bring a frame and parts in at noon on a Friday and the bike will be ready by Friday evening. They like me and I like them as our relationship is transparent. Now, there's a nearby shop which carries the clothing line with which I'm intimately involved. I'll never bring a frame and parts to them (their wrench is the most knowledgeable in the area). See, if I brought them my bika then the relationship would become personal (as my expectations are rigid) and that would probably ruin the business relationship. Wacky, I know.

Oh, to answer the OP's question, a 20% premium is qoo for coffee, tubes, rim tape, cheap sunglasses, socks and headset spacers

Which 2 bikes shops are you speaking of?

Thanks!

[peanutgallery]

News flash

1. Unles you know how to wrench, you pay retail...and labor

2. Why would a bike shop bother to stock a higher end quill stem? Stone age junque

3. If you walk in the door of the lbs, don't forget your wallet. Its a business not a community service thing for MAMILS

Rant over

[oldpotatoe]

I was in Madison yesterday and decided to check out a local shop. The guy greeted me when I walked in and asked what I was looking for. My reply, nothing in particular. I was visiting from out of town and just doing a bit of shopping after work. He informed me that he had alot more inventory than was out on the floor. Cool. I looked around and found a dusty Campy cable kit. Into the basket it went. Asked him if he happened to have any old quill stems, he laughed. Ok, how about some leather bar tape, nope. Ok, some nice tires. He said Gatorskins were the best. I asked about some Vittorias or Veloflex. Nope.
He asked me about my bike. Steel with Campy. He recomended a carbon frame with sram. No kidding. He said Campy quit trying at 11 speed and sram was the way to go. Steel was old and heavy.
I put my stuff back and ordered a cable kit online from the car.
I will never be back there.
Why cant they sell me what I want instead of what they think I need? Holy smokes.

This was his mistake..after asking about your rig then slamming it. Of course, if you had said, 'a cervelo with sram' in my shop, I would have helped you out...the DOOR. :)

Cash flow, Inventory control and personnel management..the 3 biggies. Hard to stock stuff for everybody but ya don't dis a guy's rig..If the knucklehead would have just said, 'nice rig'..he would have made a sale.

[OtayBW]

^ Point taken. I can think of so many times, however, when I come into a shop, enter into a brief chit chat with the owner, and there is absolutely no discussion or seemingly any interest in what I ride, how I ride, where I ride, etc. If you can't talk bikes in a bike shop, I'm usually not long for that shop....

[Formulasaab]

Responses here seem to fall largely into three clearly divided camps...


I don't see the point of bike shops anymore. Thus, 0%.
I had a bad experience at a bike shop. Thus, 0%.
My bike shop kicks all other bike shops' asses. Thus, whatever%.


There is of course plenty of fine variation in each, plus the oldpotatoe/TiDesigns exception of "I am the bike shop", but as generalizations go I don't think I'm very far off base. The OP clearly has a decent relationship with the bike shop. Lucky guy. I'm glad to be in the same camp.

Here's a couple things I don't see the point of...

"Brick and mortar... Sad reality..."
It is a sad reality that I am dying, but I don't stop eating, riding, or smiling. Not until my ACTUAL dying day, and maybe not even then.

"The mechanic didn't read my mind correctly about what I wanted him to sell me. No soup for him!"
Two things we all understand:

Many/most bike shop employees must wear the dual hats of mechanic and salesperson.
Humans have strengths and weakesses.

So, which do you value more in a bike shop mechanic; strong technical mechanic skills or strong salesman tactics? I know my answer.

Give them something to work with before deciding they haven't produced what you want. Tell them who you are and what you like and are interested in. They might say "Sorry, but we don't really have that kind of thing here. Maybe try that shop downtown?". Or they might say "Gotcha, I see what you are putting down. C'mere my man, look what I got."

[Climb01742]

News flash

1. Unles you know how to wrench, you pay retail...and labor

(SNIPPED)

3. If you walk in the door of the lbs, don't forget your wallet. Its a business not a community service thing for MAMILS

Rant over

That's not how capitalism works. Alternatives spring up. Like:

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop. And is 100% cool with me bringing my own parts bought online. Finally, will adjust anything they installed free for a month after installing it. Here is a mechanic and business that has completely adjusted to a new reality.

My challenge is, my pal the mechanic works at a shop and I'd like to support him. That was the challenge that prompted me to start this thread in the first place. Trying to figure out how much that desire to support my friend is worth? I'm happy to pay a premium (it's my choice, after all) but how much of a premium makes business sense today? I don't think I'm alone in having non-LBS options. People see shops charging full retail as a business opportunity.

LBS have every right to run their shops as they wish. But in an online retail world, not trying to find some middle ground seems like a poor business decision. To your point #3, that is a business destined to go out of business.

[oldpotatoe]

That's not how capitalism works. Alternatives spring up. Like:

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop. And is 100% cool with me bringing my own parts bought online. Finally, will adjust anything they installed free for a month after installing it. Here is a mechanic and business that has completely adjusted to a new reality.

My challenge is, my pal the mechanic works at a shop and I'd like to support him. That was the challenge that prompted me to start this thread in the first place. Trying to figure out how much that desire to support my friend is worth? I'm happy to pay a premium (it's my choice, after all) but how much of a premium makes business sense today? I don't think I'm alone in having non-LBS options. People see shops charging full retail as a business opportunity.

LBS have every right to run their shops as they wish. But in an online retail world, not trying to find some middle ground seems like a poor business decision. To your point #3, that is a business destined to go out of business.

-Where/how does he get parts? Most distributors won't sell to garage operations.

-service ONLY oriented places are common models that came from car repair places. Still viable. My biz model when starting Vecchio's was this.

http://www.hoshimotors.net/

Or Pinson-US iron only repair.

I've always said I would love to fix it, don't want to 'sell' it.

[Climb01742]

-Where/how does he get parts? Most distributors won't sell to garage operations.

-service ONLY oriented places are common models that came from car repair places. Still viable. My biz model when starting Vecchio's was this.

http://www.hoshimotors.net/

Or Pinson-US iron only repair.

I've always said I would love to fix it, don't want to 'sell' it.

Peter,

I don't know the nature of their relationship to distributors (never asked) but any part I've needed, they've been able to get. They tend to take longer to arrive because the mechanic groups orders from a few customers to save on shipping but that's totally cool because it results in lower prices. One instance I do know of was there was an issue with a Chris King headset I had and the mechanic worked directly with them and it was resolved quickly and flawlessly, so their model seems to work well.

The key issue is, in my mind, this: where is the value add? You always understood this, I think. Your shop worked because you focused on the value add. Your wrenching. Your Campy knowledge. Your test ride bikes. Your wheelbuilding. Knowing your niche(s) and delivering. Customers will pay for value-add. But many shops don't add much value.

A great mechanic is a huge value-add, IMO. As an illustration of putting my money where my mouth is, I ordered a 6800 group through my pal the mechanic and his shop. It was $721 plus $300 labor to install. I'm thinking of upgrading another frame to 11S. Do I go the same route or get the group from Eurobikeparts for $599? Is it worth 20% (721 vs 599) to support my pal? What if there was an option of bringing my own group but paying another $50 or $60 over the $300 in service to compensate for non-store bought parts? I'd save and my pal/shop would profit too. This feels like a mutually beneficial hybrid model.

Or I could take the group to the independent mechanic and save even more because their service price is below $300 for installing a group...and my pal and his shop gets nothing.

I'm going to talk to my pal this weekend to kick around some ideas. There has to be a model that acknowledges the online retail reality yet works for both customers and shops. Customers will always find a solution. Will shops?

[tuscanyswe]

300 for a new group install? Is that about the going rate? Surprisingly high

[Climb01742]

300 for a new group install? Is that about the going rate? Surprisingly high

I don't know. I didn't haggle.:rolleyes::):beer:

[ripvanrando]

So, I called three local, large bike shops today looking for 28 mm Conti GP4000s ii clinchers. Nada. Same deal with 26 mm Specialized. Tried to get tubes with removable valve stems. Nada. These are probably the most common clinchers out there. One shop actually asked why I needed removable stems.

I try to give my money away to local bike shops but it is getting hard to do.

I feel bad for them.

[beeatnik]

Which 2 bikes shops are you speaking of?

Thanks!

Jones Bicycles II in San Marino on Huntington Blvd.

Cycle de Pro in Sierra Madre
https://www.instagram.com/cycledepro/

Check em out next time you're in the SGV!

[GregL]

One common theme throughout this thread: we, the Paceline community, are for the most part connoisseurs. We have specific needs/desires for our bikes and components that are not always met by smaller, mainstream LBSs. Expecting smaller LBSs to inventory high dollar items that only sell in small quantities is not, IMO, reasonable. You can't make money when your inventory is gathering dust on a shelf.

I do agree with the sentiment that many LBSs are not as knowledgeable as the general population of this forum. It can be frustrating to have an LBS rep try to sell you something you really don't want because they don't understand your perspective.

For my part, I try to purchase mainstream maintenance items from my LBS. Tubes, chain lube, grease, etc... They place a weekly QBP order, so I'll also order small parts through them when needed. Shoes are another item that I like to purchase locally to ensure a good fit. Otherwise, I purchase most large items on the used market and perform all necessary wrenching myself.

- Greg

[oldpotatoe]

300 for a new group install? Is that about the going rate? Surprisingly high

I did a 'pro' build with a wheel build for $250, $200 w/o wheel build, subtract $50 if bought stuff from me.

[oldpotatoe]

So, I called three local, large bike shops today looking for 28 mm Conti GP4000s ii clinchers. Nada. Same deal with 26 mm Specialized. Tried to get tubes with removable valve stems. Nada. These are probably the most common clinchers out there. One shop actually asked why I needed removable stems.

I try to give my money away to local bike shops but it is getting hard to do.

I feel bad for them.

GP4000, yes, 28mm, not really. Bet they had 23s and 25s. Conti tubes have removable stems.

[Len J]

Great Thread Climb.... lots of interesting responses

I'm a one man shop providing M&A services to sellers and buyers of businesses. I am no where near the lowest priced provider in the market, yet I have more than enough work to keep me very busy...why? Because the value add I provide to my clients is greater than the premium I'm charging & there is a large enough group of customers out there that both recognize and value the uniqueness that I bring to the process as a result of my capabilities and experience & finally because I am able to credibly communicate that difference in a way that is valuable to customers.

Think about that when you think about your LBS. I'll pay a premium equal to the value that I think that LBS is adding. Hard stop. IME, most Shops don't know what their unique defend-able advantage is and therefor can't name it, defend it or monetize it. In my case the values they provide that I value are:

- They have a very knowledgeable Campy Mechanic.
- They lead and sponsor a wide range of group rides and are very good at promoting cycling.
- They recognize that their knowledge and attitude is a large part of the value they provide. They are very welcoming, they share their knowledge freely, and I've never seen them talk down to a customer.
- They work with their clients, not at them.

I'll pay a 10 to 20% premium to buy something from them over what I can get it on line unless it's an emergency in which case, I'll pay them what they charge me.... but they charge me "Friend of the store" pricing.

I bought a set of Bora One's this fall...I went in and talked to the owner about what I could get them for due to currency rates and overseas pricing.... His response.. "I'd buy them that way too..thanks for giving me a shot, but I just can't and wouldn't expect you to pay what I'd need to charge you...it's just not where I add value." Bam...he gets it!

Len

[tuscanyswe]

I don't know. I didn't haggle.:rolleyes::):beer:

Haha well you are obviously a good customer :)

Id be surprised if 300 for new group install wasn't on the expensive side. But what do i know I'm not even in the country .)

[Climb01742]

I did a 'pro' build with a wheel build for $250, $200 w/o wheel build, subtract $50 if bought stuff from me.

Peter, how would you feel about a customer who brought in their own larger-ticket items, like a group, but paid you your asking retail price for builds, service, tires, tubes, apparel, drink mixes, etc? Would that be cool or would it bug you? Would it depend on the customer? Just curious about the view from behind the bench/cash register.

[Climb01742]

Haha well you are obviously a good customer :)

Id be surprised if 300 for new group install wasn't on the expensive side. But what do i know I'm not even in the country .)

It might well be. It's an interesting time to be a customer, of bike shops but also of anything we buy. We have so many more options and so much more information. Question is, how do we use it?

Personally, I'd be ok maybe paying a bit higher for a really top mechanic if it went along with some friend-of-the-shop prices on other things. Just trying to be smart without being a d*ck. Hope I'm more of the former, less of the latter.:rolleyes:

[beeatnik]

I did a 'pro' build with a wheel build for $250, $200 w/o wheel build, subtract $50 if bought stuff from me.

That's a bargain.

Most of my pals who go that route at 2 internationally known (world famous!) LA area shops drop $400-500.

[tuscanyswe]

It might well be. It's an interesting time to be a customer, of bike shops but also of anything we buy. We have so many more options and so much more information. Question is, how do we use it?

Personally, I'd be ok maybe paying a bit higher for a really top mechanic if it went along with some friend-of-the-shop prices on other things. Just trying to be smart without being a d*ck. Hope I'm more of the former, less of the latter.:rolleyes:

I agree interesting times. Im very similar in that regard, i dont mind paying for quality nore for supporting local businesses that i like (says the guy who exclusively imports expensive frames from the usa) :rolleyes:

[Joxster]

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop. And is 100% cool with me bringing my own parts bought online. Finally, will adjust anything they installed free for a month after installing it. Here is a mechanic and business that has completely adjusted to a new reality.


When I was a rep, if the person wanting an account didn't have a business premisis they didn't get an account. Why should I supply someone who is going to be happy to only make 15% margin because they don't pay business rates, staff wages and the usual bills that a retail shop has. Now I have to make sure that I clear £30,000 a month to be able to open the doors of the shop next month and thats before I can think about making a profit. If you want to make a $1M in the bike industry then you better start with $2M

[tuscanyswe]

I did a 'pro' build with a wheel build for $250, $200 w/o wheel build, subtract $50 if bought stuff from me.

Well if i lived around your parts you would get my work even if you upped yr prices substantially! :)

But yeah i figured most shops wouldn't charge 300 for a clean install of a new groupset. USA pretty much always cheaper than here in my experience. And a clean install here would be around 250 i think.

[quauhnahuac]

^ Point taken. I can think of so many times, however, when I come into a shop, enter into a brief chit chat with the owner, and there is absolutely no discussion or seemingly any interest in what I ride, how I ride, where I ride, etc. If you can't talk bikes in a bike shop, I'm usually not long for that shop....

I thought I felt like a jerk for having this mentality but maybe others do too. there's a shop around here that I started frequenting as much as a normal person "frequents" a bike shop and they sell jaeghers. I had ordered one direct from jaegher before realizing that shop sold them. bike arrived and finally I had time to build it up with a really high end build. rolled by the shop because I needed a small part for it and figured they sold them so I would try there.

they basically showed zero interest in me. I asked for the part and they looked at my bike and basically said nope try elsewhere.

it's like, alright, i have this rare-around-here bike that they are in the business of selling and they don't even bat an eye that one just walked in the door. no "cool bike," "how do you like jaeghers," etc.

I'm not looking for validation or anything, but if I can't get them to even make a comment on a bike that they clearly know about as they sell them and I've never seen another in the area except in their shop, I find that offputting. I really like the places that make me feel welcome and want to chat, not the places like what oldpotato said above where he would show someone out the door if they didn't have the right bike parts or frame or whatever.

[oldpotatoe]

Peter, how would you feel about a customer who brought in their own larger-ticket items, like a group, but paid you your asking retail price for builds, service, tires, tubes, apparel, drink mixes, etc? Would that be cool or would it bug you? Would it depend on the customer? Just curious about the view from behind the bench/cash register.

I installed MO stuff all the time, it didn't bother me at all. I understood the 'market'. But if something wasn't right or needed a warranty..no exchanges, no warranty process.

[oldpotatoe]

That's a bargain.

Most of my pals who go that route at 2 internationally known (world famous!) LA area shops drop $400-500.

$60/hour labor rate. Group onto frame w/o wheels took about 2-3 hours. I think Jim runs at $75 now. Di2 or EPS with plumbing, $300.

[OtayBW]

I thought I felt like a jerk for having this mentality but maybe others do too. there's a shop around here that I started frequenting as much as a normal person "frequents" a bike shop and they sell jaeghers. I had ordered one direct from jaegher before realizing that shop sold them. bike arrived and finally I had time to build it up with a really high end build. rolled by the shop because I needed a small part for it and figured they sold them so I would try there.

they basically showed zero interest in me. I asked for the part and they looked at my bike and basically said nope try elsewhere.

it's like, alright, i have this rare-around-here bike that they are in the business of selling and they don't even bat an eye that one just walked in the door. no "cool bike," "how do you like jaeghers," etc.
Yes - we've heard talk around here about value added by a LBS. That's fine, but one of the best values they can bring to the mix - for me - is simply to take interest in the customer. It's unfortunately not always done, but that is value added, IME, and that is what instills customer loyalty. I don't quibble too much about mark-up when I deal with a good shop that way.

[d_douglas]

I haven't read this thread, and I am 'guilty' of buying online and on the Forum, but I have a telling example:

I was curious about buying an affordable dropper post two months ago. I inquired at my LBS, which is a respected, established Specialized dealer, amongst many other beautiful bikes. I am a fairly regular gawker and I use them for service when I get in over my head on repair stuff (which is fairly often!). I have bought many small things there, but never a big ticket item. I am on a friendly basis with a few people there as well.

The sales guy quoted me full retail, as far as I know - $550(CAD) for a Command Post. He said it with a straight face - this is what they cost.

I posted on here to see what cam up, and a Paceliner in CA forwards me a local sale from a Spec dealer of $179US for the exact post I wanted.

Fast forward, VQDriver buys me the post, ships it to me and I send payment including beer money, and the final bill came to about $320CAD.

After tax, the post in the shop would've been about 2x the price. What gets me is that they're a licensed Spec dealer who presumably had access to the same sales as their US competitors. I was pretty disgusted that they tried to pull that on me.

And to add insult to injury, I installed the post and realized that a part from the US shop was mismatched to the post, so I took it in to my LBS to do final installation. They found the correct part ($.25 and marked up to $5, no doubt, but I am OK with that). They attached this barrel cap, pushed the post into the frame and charged me $36 for the service.

The cable and housing was way too long (I cut it myself) and the post didn't work correctly. I took it back and told them that for $36, I expect that they should notice my error and take the 30sec to cut it to the proper length.

Its a good shop with skilled mechanics, but I chalk this one up to both laziness and resentment that I clearly bought my seatpost somewhere other than their shop.

[Seramount]

if we're comparing shop costs...

just had a build done...I did the 'easy' stuff and installed the BB, brifters, brakes, RD.

had the shop install cranks, FD, new headset, cables/housings.

labor was $260 + $20 sales tax.

another shop quoted me $175 for everything except the headset (a $45 cost at the first shop).

[Cicli]

Wow. These labor prices are huge.
I have never, never paid for labor. To that point, I have never let anyone else work on a bike for me.

[NPcycling]

LBSs are an endangered species, but for me an integral part of my experience as a cyclist. No shortage of bike shops where I am, but my LBS of choice does not sell me anything i don't need, they are all cyclist, and very good mechanics. Sometimes I get the friend of the bikes shop price, sometimes I don't. I want and need them to stay in business.

My two cents.

[merlinmurph]

OK, how about this premium.

I was speccing out a new bike at a shop and we were working on the wheels. I picked out a set of Shimano CX75 disc hubs and Pacenti SL25 rims. The shop wanted around $1100 for the wheels. That sounded a bit high for wheels with a fairly basic set of hubs that you can get for ~$200.

I contacted one of our favorite wheelbuilders here and was given a price of $600 with shipping. Now, that's better.

I talked to the shop about it and they wouldn't budge, so I got them from the wheel builder. I felt bad, but man, I thought that was way over the line as far as getting hosed.

[jwess1234]

I do most of my own wrenching/builds so don't have to worry about the markups unless I needed an emergency part. The markup is high in most cases. This is probably the fault of the manufacturers/distributors, and its an unfortunate market reality they are forcing consumers to buy online.

The rule of thumb I use is this--if you benefit from the shop in some way, order from them unless the price is unconscionable, e.g., if you test the bike, buy the bike, try on the shoes, buy the shoes, etc. Bikes can be pretty high margin, but it's pretty ****ty to get sized, test rides in, and then buy online.

[d_douglas]

I do most of my own wrenching/builds so don't have to worry about the markups unless I needed an emergency part. The markup is high in most cases. This is probably the fault of the manufacturers/distributors, and its an unfortunate market reality they are forcing consumers to buy online.

The rule of thumb I use is this--if you benefit from the shop in some way, order from them unless the price is unconscionable, e.g., if you test the bike, buy the bike, try on the shoes, buy the shoes, etc. Bikes can be pretty high margin, but it's pretty ****ty to get sized, test rides in, and then buy online.




I agree with this.

I tried on a Giro Xar helmet from a local shop with cool staff and took two deep breaths then paid their price rather than buying online for less. It felt good.

[oldpotatoe]

I do most of my own wrenching/builds so don't have to worry about the markups unless I needed an emergency part. The markup is high in most cases. This is probably the fault of the manufacturers/distributors, and its an unfortunate market reality they are forcing consumers to buy online.

The rule of thumb I use is this--if you benefit from the shop in some way, order from them unless the price is unconscionable, e.g., if you test the bike, buy the bike, try on the shoes, buy the shoes, etc. Bikes can be pretty high margin, but it's pretty ****ty to get sized, test rides in, and then buy online.

Actually, the 'bike' in bike shops is one of the lowest margin things sold. And once you factor in the $ to sell, build, service after the sale, etc, it's actually lower. Then add in end of year sales and discounts and such, and free stuff(water bottlles, seat leash, bottle cages, etc)..lower still.

Why small, service oriented shops are doing well, why mobile bike shops are new but doing well. The 'BigBikeShop50,000 square foot' gig is in trouble.

BUT had a few of the last highlighted...spent 30-40 minutes explaining what works with what, what's best, why, etc, ask, 'would you like one or can I order?..'no, just looking'...righto-...and then have the person come in with that new, MO purchased, piece of gear..and the best part is then, it isn't right, he can't make it 'work', and wants you to drop everything to 'fix'..service with a 'smile'..

Morphs to peanutgallery post below..yup..retail in general and bike retail can be 'challenging'...

And for Gummee's post below, the gent frequented the shop but didn't 'know' they sold the frame he bought MO..and was surprised the shop didn't drop everything to find that 'small part'..

I had a customer, who I spent a lot of time talking to ME about Colnago(I sold them at the time)...he then bought from MaestroUK..along with that guy lying to him about new then, EPS('it was pulled off all the bikes in the giro cuz it was failing', when actually he just couldn't get it)..and he was surprised at the $ I was asking for Record EPS, including the $ to install($300)..Ophthalmologist...He bought the group from UK overseas...battery failed, was surprised I wouldn't warranty with Campag, USA...tuff job.

Let's just say, along with cash flow, inventory control and personnel management..this was right up there as to why I said ENOUGH and sold..

[Hank Scorpio]

My local is a kask dealer but they only have on protone in stock in the wrong size. They are also the sponsor of the club I ride with and a few of the employees go on the rides. Their price after club discount and taxes was $270 ish. I found it online for $199 but didn't feel right about buying it. I do all my own wrenching and really don't buy anything from the shop unless I really need something today. I will probably just pass on the helmet completely because of the difference.

[El Chaba]

Save for service for riders who need that sort of thing, the LBS model-especially for enthusiasts-is dead. In addition to service oriented shops, I think there will be a future for destination type specialty shops. A couple of these within reasonable driving distance for a special trip several times a year (meaning 150 miles) come to mind. When you factor in the amount of sales taken away from brick and mortar bike shops, I would guess that there are about twice as many bike shops as what can be sustained. A regular riding buddy is a sales rep for a number of "enthusiast level" product lines. Like everybody else in the business, he has no clue where things are going next, but one by one his middle man position is being pinched as more and more companies are going the direct route.

[peanutgallery]

After reading thru all of this, the sqawkers aren't looking for a bike shop but more of self affirmation kind of place the fawns over your bikes, truly appreciates the effort that you put into pedaling your bike like no one else, has a magic drawer full of esoteric parts that are basically free, doesn't make fun of the fact that you're wearing 10 year old Performance shorts in the store on a Saturday and scaring kids/housewives, fixes all your creaky bb's for free while you wait and charges overseas internet prices for the parts of your dreams....and has them in stock. OK then

Consider for a moment that maybe your LBS is looking for something else in a customer. The local LBS isn't dead, just needs to cater to the part of the market that pays and needs their expertise. Given that perspective, an LBS can do quite well. Plus, who wants to ride old stock off the internet, or God forbid, a Motobecane

In many other threads I've noticed a lot of enthusiasm and spending on nice things, why cheap out on something that you love to do and is much cheaper than a car or trip to Europe

[Gummee]

they basically showed zero interest in me. I asked for the part and they looked at my bike and basically said nope try elsewhere

so you stop in with a bike you didn't buy from them, acting like a time bandit and you're expecting the shop to ooh and aah over your MO bike?

Meanwhile, in the back... there's a week's worth of repairs that'll keep the shop afloat, guys who regularly buy stuff from them, and the phone ringing with potential customers (or current customers) wanting something.

...and you just need a small part? Sorry I didn't drop everything to help you out.

Note: I wasn't there. I'm not sure exactly what vibe you were giving off, and how the shop was going that day, but I've had a bit of experience with all the above. Note that I at least try to be interested, but there's just some times I've got more on my plate than shows.

M

[William]

OK, how about this premium.

I was speccing out a new bike at a shop and we were working on the wheels. I picked out a set of Shimano CX75 disc hubs and Pacenti SL25 rims. The shop wanted around $1100 for the wheels. That sounded a bit high for wheels with a fairly basic set of hubs that you can get for ~$200.

I contacted one of our favorite wheelbuilders here and was given a price of $600 with shipping. Now, that's better.

I talked to the shop about it and they wouldn't budge, so I got them from the wheel builder. I felt bad, but man, I thought that was way over the line as far as getting hosed.


It all depends if X+$500 out of your pocket is important to you or not. I think for most people it would be. I'm all for giving a good local LBS my business, bit I also don't want to feel like I'm being taken advantage of...which I would in a situation like that. Five - ten percent more, no problem. Almost fifty percent more...I'll be going elsewhere.








William

[William]

so you stop in with a bike you didn't buy from them, acting like a time bandit and you're expecting the shop to ooh and aah over your MO bike?




I'm not saying they should fawn all over a bike brought in to their shop, but good customer service - Even a basic "Hey, nice Bike"...is going to make the potential customer feel good and more likely to frequent the shop. Even if it doesn't, no skin off of their nose and they put good vibe rep points out there.


...Meanwhile, in the back... there's a week's worth of repairs that'll keep the shop afloat, guys who regularly buy stuff from them, and the phone ringing with potential customers (or current customers) wanting something.


Which they might get more of by sticking to the above good customer service practice.


There are two shops in my area, one about ten minutes away, and one 25 minutes away. If I need something I head down to the one that is further away. I'll always call first to make sure they have what I need, and their customer service is always friendly and helpful. The shop that is closer either ignored you until you got pissed and either walked out or cornered someone and asked if they were going to help you? The whole time they gave off the vibe that you were bothering them. I don't need that and as a customer I'll take my business elsewhere. This particular shop was sold and under new management so it may be different now...but not surprising with that type of attitude.








William

[redir]

I don't mind paying for a part in a shop for what they are asking because if I go to the shop chances are it's because I need the part right now. What drives me crazy is when I go there and ask for the part and they say, "We can have that here in a couple of days." Well uhh yeah I mean so can I and in fact it will come right to my door and chances are be considerably cheaper. And I'm not talking about some obscure part, I'm talking about ten speed cassettes and 120mm stems and stuff like that.

[sparky33]

Why small, service oriented shops are doing well, why mobile bike shops are new but doing well. The 'BigBikeShop50,000 square foot' gig is in trouble.

Agreed.
I pay a specific LBS for service (wheels, complex repairs, jobs with special tools) and for locating hard to find stuff. My shop gives me a steady discount that makes pricing reasonably competitive. They seem to know their business, and I do not see it as me subsidizing them or paying a premium for stuff - its not like that. They earn many of my dollars on a regular basis.

fwiw My cassettes and other commodity bits are delivered from the internet at internet prices.

the Big Bike shop is off my radar. Big brand bike demo's and transient anonymous staff serves another kind of customer better.

[ftf]

In reality on big items none, I'm not willing to pay more to help out a local shop, especially where I currently live, and the service is horrendous, it's not just bike shops in my experience it's everything. When I lived in a different state and I was taking cycling more seriously I would use shops when I had to, but now I can wait a day or two to get the tool or part or whatever from the internet to do it myself, and frankly know it was done right.


Honestly I'd rather just buy the special tool, then pay to have someone reef on my bike that will cost 75-200% of buying the tool. So that's out.


Bikes. Well it depends, some bikes you have to buy in a bike shop, I have one of those, I bought it in bike shop, however it was a last years model, and was heavily discounted.

My nice bike, I bought online from Europe at a fraction of the cost, and I built it up myself, with tools and parts from Europe. I built the entire bike for 500ish more than buying just the frame here, with EPS.

The reality is, there are the old school people that love the bike shop, there are people like me that got in to cycling in the transitional period, or just before internet sales, and either swing internet or bike shop, and then there's the new age of customers, and I doubt they will be loving their local bike shop unless things change.

[beeatnik]

aka it's 2016 aka what's old is new


Interesting Outlier (Tale of Two Purchases)

Last year, a riding pal was in the market for the latest version of a well-loved weight weenie brake set. The brakes, which are never discounted were in limited supply. He had 4 options: direct from manufacturer, local high end shop, online boutique in AZ and german mail order. My pal ordered the brakes from Germany and subtracting VAT and small discount he saved about $100 (20%). Interestingly enough, the manufacturer/designer of the brakes is a regular on the local hammerfestz and he offers discounts to local riders. In any case, his price would have included tax, negating the savings relative to the online boutique which sells the brakes at MSRP (no tax for CA residents). Anyhoo, it blew my mind a little to consider that this product was made in California, shipped to Germany, stocked, marketed, sold, and then shipped back to California at a 20% discount over buying direct (10 miles away!). As for Cycle de Pro (the LBS), they would have been wasting resources pursuing my boy as a customer. He does his own wrenching so a small discount w/ free installation does not constitute a value for him.

And yet

He paid full retail from Competitive Cyclist and waited months for the etapz. Interestingly enough, the only other guy I know on etap picked up his group up from the largest local chain. His group came in before the CC groups and he saved a few ducats.

[ftf]

aka it's 2016 aka what's old is new


Interesting Outlier (Tale of Two Purchases)

Last year, a riding pal was in the market for the latest version of a well-loved weight weenie brake set. The brakes, which are never discounted were in limited supply. He had 4 options: direct from manufacturer, local high end shop, online boutique in AZ and german mail order. My pal ordered the brakes from Germany and subtracting VAT and small discount he saved about $100 (20%). Interestingly enough, the manufacturer/designer of the brakes is a regular on the local hammerfestz and he offers discounts to local riders. In any case, his price would have included tax, negating the savings relative to the online boutique which sells the brakes at MSRP (no tax for CA residents). Anyhoo, it blew my mind a little to consider that this product was made in California, shipped to Germany, stocked, marketed, sold, and then shipped back to California at a 20% discount over buying direct (10 miles away!). As for Cycle de Pro (the LBS), they would have been wasting resources pursuing my boy as a customer. He does his own wrenching so a small discount w/ free installation does not constitute a value for him.

And yet

He paid full retail from Competitive Cyclist and waited months for the etapz. Interestingly enough, the only other guy I know on etap picked up his group up from the largest local chain. His group came in before the CC groups and he saved a few ducats.

Sad to say but your friend seems like he's not a very smart customer. That doesn't mean much other than he's not smart.

[beeatnik]

^I think you misread my post or I'm the not-smart one as I'm confused by your comment.

[El Chaba]

The talk of paying a premium to the LBS is a less likely reality as time goes on. Bike sales are flat...or beginning to contract signaling that the current "boom" is over. Manufacturers are trying to prop themselves up by increasing the pace of product introductions turning the industry into a "new product" industry. Whatever the level of the supply chain there are fewer dollars to be chased and quite frankly the LBS is at the bottom of the food chain and will feel the pinch the worst. Most LBS's regarded "enthusiasts" as a pain in the a$$ for years and had it pretty good for a long time with people new to the sport buying their first and second road bikes a hybrid, a mountain bike...whatever. They were not terribly discerning with respect to either the product or the quality of service they received. Now it's going away. The ones that provide good and useful service will survive (and I think that those that provide exceptional service will do VERY well), but a sorting out is overdue.

[ftf]

^I think you misread my post or I'm the not-smart one as I'm confused by your comment.

The dude paid full retail for the Etap right, when he could have gotten a better deal, and gotten it faster. I would say that's not smart.


Though had he waited a bit I'm sure he could have sourced it from europe for much less than either.

In the end we all make our choices in how to spend our money, saying one is right and the other is wrong is incorrect, though I'm sure I come off as thinking the internet is the way, because that's is how I choose to spend my money, as I think it to be a better value.

[beeatnik]

^i know my friend considers himself highly sophisticated. also, he's reasonably affluent but directs his resources to, um, non depreciating assets. for that reason he hardly ever buys new and never pays retail. that said, he must have included time, opportunity costs and some subjective variables into his buying calculus. the limited availability and transparent pricing (no one is selling it below MSRP and, in fact, it goes for a 10% premium on ebay) would ease my anxiety about being an early adopter. as for the LBS discount, they informed my pal that he picked up one first 50 sets in the country. i guess he got a bro deal. he also buys and wears a lot of shop kits...

[AllanVarcoe]

Last year I bought a 11-36, 10 spd Cassette for my wifes bike from an LBS that I had a relationship with for a couple years for $112+tax. Thought it was kinda steep but at the time I didn't know.

FFWD to March of this year, I'm building myself a frame and using the same driveline. Looked online (Amazon, Jenson, ebay) and the friking thing is only $59! :eek::(

[nate2351]

Last year I bought a 11-36, 10 spd Cassette for my wifes bike from an LBS that I had a relationship with for a couple years for $112+tax. Thought it was kinda steep but at the time I didn't know.

FFWD to March of this year, I'm building myself a frame and using the same driveline. Looked online (Amazon, Jenson, ebay) and the friking thing is only $59! :eek::(

Someone didn't read the thread.

[slidey]

^i know my friend considers himself highly sophisticated. also, he's reasonably affluent but directs his resources to, um, non depreciating assets. for that reason he hardly ever buys new and never pays retail. that said, he must have included time, opportunity costs and some subjective variables into his buying calculus. the limited availability and transparent pricing (no one is selling it below MSRP and, in fact, it goes for a 10% premium on ebay) would ease my anxiety about being an early adopter. as for the LBS discount, they informed my pal that he picked up one first 50 sets in the country. i guess he got a bro deal. he also buys and wears a lot of shop kits...

This is exactly it. The only right answer, that I can think of, to the OP's Q is "when its at least breaking even".

I dont think rationality can be measured just in MSRP; what one chooses to put as a price on the other params mentioned above is different for each person. So every single situation will need a recomputation of the calculus to determine the break-even point. Or at least that's what I think.

[seric]

If I need to ask a bike shop employee for information, I will pay their asking price for whichever item they've helped me make my decision on. Otherwise, I usually research and order my own parts from home.

I try to have a global perspective on things, so I don't necessarily feel that helping my local economy is inherently more important than supporting distant economies.

[mjf]

I've generally been open to buying things locally if it is an immediate need. I do my own wrenching so the idea of paying someone else (unless it's the odd tool I don't have) seems unreasonable to me.

The only thing lately where I had been actively considering buying something from a shop was an All City Natureboy 853. Prices between local shops fluctuated between 900-1100 for the frameset, and the staff people did really try and help as much as they could to try to help me out with some of the info they had. At the same time, the frameset I was buying was a bit odd, and no local stores had one in stock at any point in time.

I ended up finding the frameset on ebay for $650 and called it a day. As much as I want to support local shops, saving that $300 or so was worth it in the end. I unfortunately can't afford to pay some of the prices that are available, but I still want ride as much as possible.

Some odds and ends I'll surely continue to pick up, but in all likelihood I'll probably never buy any major component or frameset from a LBS in the future.

[ripvanrando]

GP4000, yes, 28mm, not really. Bet they had 23s and 25s. Conti tubes have removable stems.

Yes, I know Conti tubes have removable stems as do Schwalbe tubes. When I said they did not have tubes with removable stems, I did not confine my comment to just those two brands as other brands also have removable stems. I find many shops carry cheapo tubes...probably the customers do not want to spend $15-20 for a high quality, light tube.

I can only speak for myself.

I don't think 28 mm Conti tires are so exotic.

Are size 47 cycling shoes that exotic, too. 26 mm Specialized tires. Or even 155 mm wide Specialized saddle. Multiple shops. Maybe I'm lazy. The closest shop is 10-15 minutes by car. It is just a lot less effort to buy over the internet but I have tried to buy what I can local. I do feel bad for shop owners.

[kitsnob]

[QUOTE=Climb01742;1979573]That's not how capitalism works. Alternatives spring up. Like:

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop.

There's a new option for service now ... anyone hear of VELOFIX?
It's a MB Sprinter van equipped with the latest tools, consumables and CERTIFIED mechanics.
They come to you via an on line appointment system.
Their tag line is: Save Time, Ride More
Its a franchise btw ...

[peanutgallery]

Pyramid scheme, might as well take up being a life insurance agent or selling finance products or being an uber driver

Only redeeming quality is the web referral deal, but then who does the marketing? You buy a territory basically. Seems a bit sketchy to me...and you still have overhead along with a nut to cover. Additionally, sprinters have terrible maintenance issues

What if the guy is a creeper? Encountered some odd bike mechanics in my day

[QUOTE=Climb01742;1979573]That's not how capitalism works. Alternatives spring up. Like:

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop.

There's a new option for service now ... anyone hear of VELOFIX?
It's a MB Sprinter van equipped with the latest tools, consumables and CERTIFIED mechanics.
They come to you via an on line appointment system.
Their tag line is: Save Time, Ride More
Its a franchise btw ...

[purpurite]

Pyramid scheme, might as well take up being a life insurance agent or selling finance products or being an uber driver

How exactly is it a pyramid scheme? I think your definition is off. This is a franchise—no different than independent owners of SnapOn trucks or the local cable installer. It requires capital investment, like any other small business franchise.

Sounds like an interesting business model with no worries of bike inventory or storefront rent.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, I know Conti tubes have removable stems as do Schwalbe tubes. When I said they did not have tubes with removable stems, I did not confine my comment to just those two brands as other brands also have removable stems. I find many shops carry cheapo tubes...probably the customers do not want to spend $15-20 for a high quality, light tube.

I can only speak for myself.

I don't think 28 mm Conti tires are so exotic.

Are size 47 cycling shoes that exotic, too. 26 mm Specialized tires. Or even 155 mm wide Specialized saddle. Multiple shops. Maybe I'm lazy. The closest shop is 10-15 minutes by car. It is just a lot less effort to buy over the internet but I have tried to buy what I can local. I do feel bad for shop owners.

Not trying to argue but most tubes have removable cores and are in the $6-$7 range, like Conti.

Most road bikes sold, the basic, $1000-$2000 models can't fit a 28c tire. When in the shop, I sold few, altho I carried them.

size 47 shoes? Yup, when the buyer gets a size run, it looks like the expected bell curve..

Can't speak to trekspecializedgiantcannondale stores..

Shop owners who don't recognize the reality of the interweb, and don't embrace things that you can't get over the interweb, like service, are in trouble. The low end, like the $279 bike, to people that are not enthusiasts, will work. Service shops work. VERY high end boutique, like AboveCategory, work. The 25,000 square foot, BikeVillage may be in trouble.

BUT good owners can't be everything to everybody. Gotta find that market segment, pursue it aggressively. And not roll over when somebody comes in asking for something you may sell one or 2 of per year. It's not hard, being in bike retail but it can be difficult.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Climb01742;1979573]That's not how capitalism works. Alternatives spring up. Like:

There's a mechanic near me who got tired of LBS environments and now works out of their home. Their service rates, because of no overhead, are lower than any local shop.

There's a new option for service now ... anyone hear of VELOFIX?
It's a MB Sprinter van equipped with the latest tools, consumables and CERTIFIED mechanics.
They come to you via an on line appointment system.
Their tag line is: Save Time, Ride More
Its a franchise btw ...

I think that's the one where you drop $90,000, get the van and all..Pay something like 5% of everything to the company.

I started Vecchio's with less than 1/2 of that. PLUS, can do more since don't have to drive to get there. PLUS had an opportunity to sell higher margin stuff, like soft goods.

PLUS, say the Velofix guy doesn't have the BB you need...what happens then?

I think it's an interesting idea. BUT I like the idea of brick and mortar, one location, small bike repair place more better. Like the specialty car repair places now so common..Honda only, Subaru only..etc.

IMHO, and all that.

[peanutgallery]

After reading how cheap you guys are I would hate to own the nut on this deal:) essentially the pricing would have to be similar to a bike shop if you wanted to make any money as there is still overhead and all your doing is repairs and driving around in a vehicle that is expensive to operate. The margin on quality repair and replacement parts is terrible (shimano). The unicorn drawer full of rainbows, 10 year campy and quill stems is a killer. Repairs are just too cheap and take up too much time to make any $. Shops face this issue too. A helmet is a much better turn than a wheel build or a tune

This truck thing is atough way to make a living let alone the fees. Only person making out is the person selling it. There will be an outlier and that will be used to market it. Hence it is basically a pyramid scheme

Give me the snap on route any day, you're selling brand new stuff with incredible margins

How exactly is it a pyramid scheme? I think your definition is off. This is a franchise—no different than independent owners of SnapOn trucks or the local cable installer. It requires capital investment, like any other small business franchise.

Sounds like an interesting business model with no worries of bike inventory or storefront rent.

[oldpotatoe]

How exactly is it a pyramid scheme? I think your definition is off. This is a franchise—no different than independent owners of SnapOn trucks or the local cable installer. It requires capital investment, like any other small business franchise.

Sounds like an interesting business model with no worries of bike inventory or storefront rent.

Much of the same fixed expenses still exist in a mobile bike shop, the biggest is $ to maintain the van. Van breaks, you are out of biz until it's fixed. Still gotta have inventory, just bike parts, not bikes. AND insurance, CC costs, etc. And I still wonder what happens when you drive for 45 minutes, start the bike and see that you need a middle shimano 6600 chainring...what happens to the bike? Stored, come back later?

I think it's an interesting idea but for less than the entry $, you could start your own(altho buying from distributors may be an issue)...and not be tied to the mother company. OR a destination store front. Here in the republic, there are small, industrial park places, 500-1000 sq ft places for $10-$12 per sq ft..Just have to model it..$1000 per month rent, $x for insurance, utilities, etc=$fixed expenses per month, translates to how much needed per day, factoring in margin.. 5 jobs, average $-$150-$750 per day...plus margin on parts, type thing..isn't hard.

For parts, the mothership buys and then 'sells' to the franchise owners. Somewhat like Performance Bike-Nashbar gig..

[TronnyJenkins]

This is a dilemma I've been facing recently. I'm almost 30 and grew up ordering stuff on the internet, chasing the best deals, buying gently used, etc. Heck, I still do almost every time I buy something.

However, I've started to realize that a couple of the group rides I go on weekly are filled with shop owners, mechanics, and employees. Do I want to support them? Absolutely. I own my own business and know how difficult it is to stay afloat (still wouldn't trade it). But, I also agree with those who say the business needs to adapt.

Personally, I see it going to more of a small margin on parts and sales (except bikes, because you need someone to fit you, help you decide, all that) and more focused on service vs sales.

I try not to look at online prices when I need something and want to shop local. It helps a bit.

[cash05458]

I get the dilemma...local folks can be great....especially via a good mechanic... I do mostly my own work, but still, our local place has a great campy person who has helped me in an emergency ...so I like to support them...last time I was down there I thought maybe I would pick up a tire I needed...a conti 4000 etc...while getting some slight work done which I was paying full price for...that conti was 99 bucks for a single...I could buy two online for 80...so of course, I didnt pick it up...but was glad to pay full price for work done...but yeah, it gets complicated via this issue...

[DFORD]

Just don't charge me list in this day and age. That's just insulting.


Do you bargain for bananas at the grocery store? How about for socks? Are you gonna ask the mechanic at the auto shop to cut you a deal?

Tell where list is an insult?

[seric]

I don't see the harm of giving an LBS the chance to have less of your dollars instead of none. The U.S. is rather unique in that we tend to have a weird social contract against haggling, while it tends to be odd not to in many other places. If I'm not willing to pay someones asking price for manufactured goods, not entrusting them with the price I am willing to pay should be considered an insult as well. For me the line only blurs for more artistic endeavors, I wouldn't for instance haggle on the price of a meal.