Fork defect. Any advice on what to do?

[sfhbike]

Details here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1975364&postcount=11

[ultraman6970]

Sadly the picture is how the stuff looks from the tops and you dont have a picture of the bad drop out, you can actually bend the drop outs into position using the right tool or with a DIY tool. Drop out alignment tool.

Is not hard to do and relatively fast and quick fix if you take the fork to a shop.

[sfhbike]

Sadly the picture is how the stuff looks from the tops and you dont have a picture of the bad drop out, you can actually bend the drop outs into position using the right tool or with a DIY tool. Drop out alignment tool.

Is not hard to do and relatively fast and quick fix if you take the fork to a shop.

So, I'm fairly certain such a tool may have been used already during the manufacturing process as the dropout itself is fairly well aligned (wheel mounts properly and centered in fork). But the dropout is lugged and has two eyelets and I don't believe those eyelets also twisted into proper alignment. Does that make sense? I'll try to get some better pictures, here are a few different angles but they might not help based on your comment. It is hard to see with rack and fenders mounted, so I'd have to take everything off:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7693/26801063380_908c7d852a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GQjspE)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7453/27042336416_9ae63a9000_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HcD3tA)

[ultraman6970]

If the bike is not pulling, the drop out is alligned and from your comments the eyelets are in the right place?? why not just bend the rack and the supports of the fender a little bit so both actually sit at the center?? The rack and the fender suppots always have like extra room in the bolting areas to wiggle and account for imperfections?

Did you measure the eyelets? well one could be a few mm off than the other one?

[sfhbike]

If the bike is not pulling, the drop out is alligned and from your comments the eyelets are in the right place?? why not just bend the rack and the supports of the fender a little bit so both actually sit at the center?? The rack and the fender suppots always have like extra room in the bolting areas to wiggle and account for imperfections?

Did you measure the eyelets? well one could be a few mm off than the other one?

Actually, the problem is that the eyelets are NOT in the right place, they are a few mm off rotate in toward the bike, causing the bottom right eyelet to rotate away from the bike, pushing the whole rack to the left. Look at my picture again. I drew red lines showing the top eyelet rotated in and even the little lug design is off to the inside of the bike. Very hard to describe all of this, sorry about that.

[unterhausen]

I'm usually pretty good at picking out spacial relationships, but there is so much parallax in your pictures it really is impossible. I can see that the rack is off, and I'm sure you are right about the cause. One thing I have learned from building forks is that there are a dozen misalignments that can be made and still end up with a fork that rides straight. I'm not sure I would fight this, it's a cheap fork, right?

VO should replace it though, a little disappointed in their response. They can just sell it in the tent sale

[Peter P.]

Find a shop or framebuilder to confirm the fork alignment, not just the dropout alignment.

If you can't, then merely use a properly dished wheel set into the dropouts. Remove the tire and connect the brake. Install the wheel and observe the rim relative to the brake pads. Adjust until centered. Then remove the wheel, flip it around, and reinstall. If the position relative to the brake pads does not change, the fork is fine and perhaps as has been mentioned, the eyelets are the problem.

Not to dis' your frame, but Velo Orange isn't exactly high end stuff. I think you're getting what you paid for with regard to the fork. Tweaking the eyelet or the rack to fit is fairly reasonable assuming the fork is off. However, in the interest of customer satisfaction I would give you a refund if I were Velo Orange. They probably have a better feel for the quality of their product and would know whether it would be in their interest to give you a refund rather than try to satisfy you with another fork

So the next question is, can you prove the alignment of THE RACK? I'm also going to offer a possible homebrew solution-you could try some of those ball and socket type washers used on V-brake pads that facilitate alignment. They may enable you to pivot the rack leg to an angle to give you the proper centering you're seeking.

P.S. If it's really an eyelet issue, I can say I've seen similar problems before. I saw a picture of a rear drive side dropout with the eyelet placed on the inboard side of the dropout. The result was some interference between the chain and the eyelet when the chain was in the small cog.

[C. Matthews]

Take off the wheel and rack and thread a 50mm bolt into each eyelet. On a straight fork, the bolt heads will be in line with each other as they almost touch in the middle.
This will give you an easy to read (and photo) visual of how far out of whack your fork is.

[11.4]

Take off the wheel and rack and thread a 50mm bolt into each eyelet. On a straight fork, the bolt heads will be in line with each other as they almost touch in the middle.
This will give you an easy to read (and photo) visual of how far out of whack your fork is.

5 mm. And it's all a question of what is actually out of whack and what was done to fix it previously.

From what I can see in the photos, these are external-sleeve fork tips. Not so common in the US but very popular in the Japanese keirin community. Now when you use the traditional flat-stock American or British fork tip, you typically slot the end of the fork blades and if you do that right, the fork tips are pretty much guaranteed straight. With external sleeves, you have to fixture them just right or one can rotate around the end of the fork blade.

Next, when the frame builder discovers his error (after the fork tip is brazed in place), he'll as often as not fix it (entirely appropriately) with a pair of alignment tools. Now that bends the steel a bit to get it in align, but doesn't do anything about fender or rack eyelets that are not yet in alignment. In this situation, you can't do too much without replacing the fork or at least having the fork tips replaced and then repainted, so the easier step is to cuss out the builder and then shim out the rack mounting bolts. It's hard to tell from the photos if the eyelets are still in alignment with the tips of the external sleeves; you might be able to tweak them, but the point here is that there are potentially a number of misalignments occurring at once. Go for the fork tips themselves.

Now as someone pointed out above, your rack may not be perfectly aligned. If the mounting point on the rack is off by just a hair, it'll grow into a significant apparent misalignment at the working surface of the rack. I'd use a variant of the string alignment technique to get the best possible evaluation of whether your rack is the culprit. You can try the approach just mentioned of screwing in a long bolt through each rack eyelet and seeing if they match up, but there's not too much tolerance in a rack eyelet and the threading alone may be sloppy enough that you won't be able to identify a problem unless it's truly gross (and this doesn't look to be). Plus threading alignment isn't the same as alignment of the outer surfaces of the eyelets, which the rack gets clamped flat against by the bolts. It's the outer surfaces that are likely more critical. (Which raises the additional question of whether you have paint pooled up on the outside of one eyelet, or possibly even some brazing compound.) It's often a good idea to run the bolt through the rack and the eyelet, tighten it up, and then spin a Nylok nut on the backside until it's tight; it keeps everything from ever loosening, plus it makes the face of the eyelet the determining surface for alignment.

Now there could be a problem going further up the fork as well, just to get this complicated. There aren't photos of the fork crown, but were the blades slightly out of alignment when they were mounted in the fork crown? Or when the builder bent the fork blades did he not keep it in one plane, leading to rotating the whole end of the fork blade slightly. These photos aren't enough to eliminate this possibility.

We could probably make this more complicated, but better photos are needed if anyone is going to narrow down the issues. The only recommendation I'd make is not to bend anything until you know how much is misaligned and needs fixing.

[unterhausen]

what would be really interesting is to get a bare front axle and two 50mm long 5x.8 bolts and put them in the fork at the same time. As I mentioned before, a fork that nominally is straight can have any number of canceling misalignments, but this setup will show if the dropouts are aligned with the eyelets or not.

[sfhbike]

Next, when the frame builder discovers his error (after the fork tip is brazed in place), he'll as often as not fix it (entirely appropriately) with a pair of alignment tools. Now that bends the steel a bit to get it in align, but doesn't do anything about fender or rack eyelets that are not yet in alignment.

I'm fairly confident this is exactly what happened as the right dropout does show telltale evidence of having been bent into alignment while the eyelets remain rotated with the rest of the sleeve (see pics linked below).

Thank you for your very thoughtful and thorough reply. I plan to try out long bolts in the dropouts and eyelets to get a better picture (and photos) of what is up.

A few clarifications: Unterhausen, excuse my ignorance, but what is a 5x.8 bolt? Also, 11.4, can you elaborate on the "string alignment technique"?

If anyone wants to look at more pictures, I've posted a few more in this thread on bikeforums: http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1063962-defect-new-vo-campeur-fork-what-would-you-do-2.html#post18778795 (I hope to get to more pictures tomorrow after removing the rack and wheels).

[sfhbike]

Not to dis' your frame, but Velo Orange isn't exactly high end stuff. I think you're getting what you paid for with regard to the fork. Tweaking the eyelet or the rack to fit is fairly reasonable assuming the fork is off. However, in the interest of customer satisfaction I would give you a refund if I were Velo Orange. They probably have a better feel for the quality of their product and would know whether it would be in their interest to give you a refund rather than try to satisfy you with another fork

So the next question is, can you prove the alignment of THE RACK? I'm also going to offer a possible homebrew solution-you could try some of those ball and socket type washers used on V-brake pads that facilitate alignment. They may enable you to pivot the rack leg to an angle to give you the proper centering you're seeking.

Haha, no offense taken. Budget and family doesn't exactly allow me to purchase new high end stuff. Wish that were different. I'm aware of what I'm getting, and if it is just a matter of the eyelets, I might be willing to live with it and use v-brake washers or bend the rack, or drill out one of the holes further or some other solution to get better alignment and call it a day.

But yes, short of a new fork, a modest refund will at least make me feel better. At this point they're just telling me to "live with it" so more pictures and better proof of what is going on is probably in order (both to show them and so I know how to address the problem).

[charliedid]

Don't bend the rack.WHat if you install it on a different bike at some point?

I'd press them further, but that's just me. If I sold that bike I would force them to replace it.

Good luck

[sfhbike]

Don't bend the rack.WHat if you install it on a different bike at some point?

I'd press them further, but that's just me. If I sold that bike I would force them to replace it.

Good luck

Yes, that was a thought I had also. This is frustrating.

[Peter P.]

Would it be possible to mount THE RACK reversed, in front of the fork crown?

If the result is the rack is now skewed to the opposite side, then the rack is definitely RACKED! (Pun intended)

[ultraman6970]

Thats exactly what i was suggesting before, I would be bending those supports big time to get the straight, but that's just me.

[sfhbike]

Would it be possible to mount THE RACK reversed, in front of the fork crown?

If the result is the rack is now skewed to the opposite side, then the rack is definitely RACKED! (Pun intended)

I might be able to do something like that as a test. I'd have to have a look and see if it's possible.

[R3awak3n]

If you just bought it, send it back. I know its annoying but you will never be happy with this issue. And you should not keep something that is not satiafactory. I like vo stuff but they do have a reputation for bad qc, stuff like this exactly

[sfhbike]

If you just bought it, send it back. I know its annoying but you will never be happy with this issue. And you should not keep something that is not satiafactory. I like vo stuff but they do have a reputation for bad qc, stuff like this exactly

Have to confirm it's actually the problem first. Also, I know for a fact they are out of that frame size until August, although I don't know about whether they have spare forks in that size aside from the complete framesets. First I need to figure out what issues there are with the fork, then I'll decide what the best course of action will be.

[austex]

..., but what is a 5x.8 bolt? ...

5x0.8 bolt (machine screw) is diameter (5mm) x thread pitch (0.8mm per thread), in this case, pretty standard 5mm screw, 50mm long. Often, though, 50mm screws this size will have a significant unthreaded section of shaft - you'll need to find fully-threaded.

[benb]

The bolt alignment test is really interesting.

Personally I've never really seen a rack that was actually straight. I always assumed you had to work to get them lined up nice. I've never bought a super expensive rack but that's been my experience. The rack I have now purposely has oversize and/or ovalized holes and bendable parts to help get it lined up straight and it works fine.

No way I would think most racks are going on an alignment table over and over during the build process like a high quality frame or fork.

[11.4]

can you elaborate on the "string alignment technique"?

When testing a frame for alignment without having a surface plate or a frame builder's jig, you can usually figure out if it's straight or not by running a piece of string through the stay ends, past the seat tube, and around the head tube. If the distance from the string to the seat tube is the same on each side, the frame is most likely in alignment (definitely in alignment unless there's something really weird happening, like different chain stay lengths (things like that do happen).

You can get at least some indication of whether the fork is straight, or whether the rack is properly aligned, by playing around with some string in the same way. Depending on the rack or fork, you can sometimes get some good information on whether everything is aligned.

[sfhbike]

5x0.8 bolt (machine screw) is diameter (5mm) x thread pitch (0.8mm per thread), in this case, pretty standard 5mm screw, 50mm long. Often, though, 50mm screws this size will have a significant unthreaded section of shaft - you'll need to find fully-threaded.

Thanks, I eventually figured out that you meant a normal M5 bolt (.8 being the threading).

I have a bunch of pictures with bolts I'll post soon. Pretty much confirms everything I thought when eyeballing: Dropouts are more or less parallel and look to have been manipulated to get there after being welded. The right eyelets on the other hand is pointing into outer space :crap:

[C. Matthews]

Thanks, I eventually figured out that you meant a normal M5 bolt (.8 being the threading).

I have a bunch of pictures with bolts I'll post soon. Pretty much confirms everything I thought when eyeballing: Dropouts are more or less parallel and look to have been manipulated to get there after being welded. The right eyelets on the other hand is pointing into outer space :crap:

Cool, now you have a clear, easy to photo indicator of the defect and VO can't use that "maybe it's your rack" line on you again.
Best of luck for a quick resolution.

[sfhbike]

There are plenty of pictures in this album (https://www.flickr.com/gp/erinandshady/5JXS20), but here are the highlights:

First and most importantly, a view of the dropout alignment which appears acceptable:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/27025070422_fc19b351d5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hb7xU3)

Right rear eyelet misaligned pretty severely:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7687/27025068872_458cc3d4b4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hb7xrj)

Misaligned about 2-3cm over 10cm width of the fork (I estimate about 10-20* angle)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/27086376966_39605d1af1_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/HgwLcq)

Overall view of fork with bolts in eyelets:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7457/26515845613_858d01e07e_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Gp7D6X)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7382/26515845233_6b1e6efee9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Gp7CZp)

With bolts in dropouts as a straight edge for reference:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/27025070022_2f348a3876_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Hb7xM9)

I'm pretty sure I might be able to align the rack using washers, etc. if necessary, given that the axle is pretty much aligned. I don't want to bend my Tubus rack because I might use it on other frames. I haven't yet shown these latest pics to VO. I will send them in an email tonight. Any initial thoughts on this and whether it warrants replacement or not. It confirms pretty much what I had observed.

[unterhausen]

they need to figure out how to make a fork, that's b.s. I guess that's one reason why there is still a custom segment of the bike frame industry.

I can't tell if the blades are catywumpus, or if it's just the dropouts. It looks like they bent the drive side dropout quite a bit more than the nds dropout. That would suggest the fork blades are randomly bent.

[JAGI410]

I would love to see their response to those pictures. I agree that it was not properly built.

[benb]

Yah... that's crazy. Even the dropouts aren't exactly particularly good.

[11.4]

5 mm. And it's all a question of what is actually out of whack and what was done to fix it previously.

From what I can see in the photos, these are external-sleeve fork tips. Not so common in the US but very popular in the Japanese keirin community. Now when you use the traditional flat-stock American or British fork tip, you typically slot the end of the fork blades and if you do that right, the fork tips are pretty much guaranteed straight. With external sleeves, you have to fixture them just right or one can rotate around the end of the fork blade.

Next, when the frame builder discovers his error (after the fork tip is brazed in place), he'll as often as not fix it (entirely appropriately) with a pair of alignment tools. Now that bends the steel a bit to get it in align, but doesn't do anything about fender or rack eyelets that are not yet in alignment. In this situation, you can't do too much without replacing the fork or at least having the fork tips replaced and then repainted, so the easier step is to cuss out the builder and then shim out the rack mounting bolts. It's hard to tell from the photos if the eyelets are still in alignment with the tips of the external sleeves; you might be able to tweak them, but the point here is that there are potentially a number of misalignments occurring at once. Go for the fork tips themselves.

Now as someone pointed out above, your rack may not be perfectly aligned. If the mounting point on the rack is off by just a hair, it'll grow into a significant apparent misalignment at the working surface of the rack. I'd use a variant of the string alignment technique to get the best possible evaluation of whether your rack is the culprit. You can try the approach just mentioned of screwing in a long bolt through each rack eyelet and seeing if they match up, but there's not too much tolerance in a rack eyelet and the threading alone may be sloppy enough that you won't be able to identify a problem unless it's truly gross (and this doesn't look to be). Plus threading alignment isn't the same as alignment of the outer surfaces of the eyelets, which the rack gets clamped flat against by the bolts. It's the outer surfaces that are likely more critical. (Which raises the additional question of whether you have paint pooled up on the outside of one eyelet, or possibly even some brazing compound.) It's often a good idea to run the bolt through the rack and the eyelet, tighten it up, and then spin a Nylok nut on the backside until it's tight; it keeps everything from ever loosening, plus it makes the face of the eyelet the determining surface for alignment.

Now there could be a problem going further up the fork as well, just to get this complicated. There aren't photos of the fork crown, but were the blades slightly out of alignment when they were mounted in the fork crown? Or when the builder bent the fork blades did he not keep it in one plane, leading to rotating the whole end of the fork blade slightly. These photos aren't enough to eliminate this possibility.

We could probably make this more complicated, but better photos are needed if anyone is going to narrow down the issues. The only recommendation I'd make is not to bend anything until you know how much is misaligned and needs fixing.

Apologies for quoting my own post. With these additional photos, what happened here is pretty clear. The sleeve fork tip seems fine but it was installed so the tips were misaligned; they were subsequently cold-manipulated into alignment. This didn't move the rack eyelets so they remained out of position. You can see this in the shape of the external-sleeve fork tips.

What remains is whether the tip was installed out of alignment or whether the fork blade is actually worked wrong or ended up out of position because of how the fork blade was installed into the fork crown. Because of the design of the fork crown and the limited play available to the fork blade at the crown, I'm thinking that the maker didn't control the fork blade when he worked the fork offset, so it actually moved in three dimensions rather than in two. This meant it basically was rotated at the same time it was bent. This could have been a matter of the external sleeve fork tip being installed with a rotation in the sleeve, since perspective is easily distorted in the photos. But I'm thinking the fork blade was actually worked wrongly, then pulled into position just to make the fork tips match up, and everything else was a bit corkscrew. It would be interesting to see how the bike handles in high speed downhills -- there could be a shimmy or vibration if the two fork blades are actually differently shaped and flex differently. More reason to try to get a replacement fork if there are any handling problems.

[sfhbike]

11.4, thanks again for another thoughtful reply. As I mentioned in my original build thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=186399), this bike is intended as a loaded commuter and tourer, often with my toddler on board in a Thule seat, and hopefully on some tours this summer being pulled in a Weehoo.

I've ridden the bike on one commute (13 miles round trip) so can't speak much to how it will handle with a load. But I've just sent an email to VO with these latest pictures and asked them to warranty the fork. I can't risk waiting around to see how it handles when my kid is involved. Hopefully after seeing the pictures they'll take this a little more seriously.

Thanks for everyone's help and input.

[oldpotatoe]

11.4, thanks again for another thoughtful reply. As I mentioned in my original build thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=186399), this bike is intended as a loaded commuter and tourer, often with my toddler on board in a Thule seat, and hopefully on some tours this summer being pulled in a Weehoo.

I've ridden the bike on one commute (13 miles round trip) so can't speak much to how it will handle with a load. But I've just sent an email to VO with these latest pictures and asked them to warranty the fork. I can't risk waiting around to see how it handles when my kid is involved. Hopefully after seeing the pictures they'll take this a little more seriously.

Thanks for everyone's help and input.

Yikes, I would hope so....Good Luck

[happycampyer]

Sometimes imperfection is perfection.
Sometimes imperfection is simply imperfection.
And sometimes imperfection is defective.

In the case of your fork, it's the last case. Keep us posted on VO's response.

[benb]

11.4, thanks again for another thoughtful reply. As I mentioned in my original build thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=186399), this bike is intended as a loaded commuter and tourer, often with my toddler on board in a Thule seat, and hopefully on some tours this summer being pulled in a Weehoo.

I've ridden the bike on one commute (13 miles round trip) so can't speak much to how it will handle with a load. But I've just sent an email to VO with these latest pictures and asked them to warranty the fork. I can't risk waiting around to see how it handles when my kid is involved. Hopefully after seeing the pictures they'll take this a little more seriously.

Thanks for everyone's help and input.

Good thinking... it's been my experience so far that pulling a trailer can be a test of a bike's handling. The extra loads seem to reveal things about a frame and fork.

[sfhbike]

I'm happy to report that after seeing this last batch of pictures, VO agrees that my fork dropout is unacceptably wacked out. They sent me a photo of a replacement with bolts attached (straight!) and will be shipping it out to me on Monday (with a return label for the old one). It certainly restores my confidence in their company and customer service.

I like what they're trying to do (decent quality, niche frames at decent prices), but to make that work you need to back up your product and QC. They appear to be coming through. Thanks for everyone's feedback. Will report back once everything is together.

[donevwil]

Great conclusion, congratulations ? I wish you many happy miles.

[R3awak3n]

glad it worked out. After the last batch of pictures, I think they cannot deny that that particular fork is defective.

They need to tighten up their QC.

[charliedid]

I'm happy to report that after seeing this last batch of pictures, VO agrees that my fork dropout is unacceptably wacked out. They sent me a photo of a replacement with bolts attached (straight!) and will be shipping it out to me on Monday (with a return label for the old one). It certainly restores my confidence in their company and customer service.

I like what they're trying to do (decent quality, niche frames at decent prices), but to make that work you need to back up your product and QC. They appear to be coming through. Thanks for everyone's feedback. Will report back once everything is together.

Glad to hear it.

[sfhbike]

New fork is much better:

https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7084/27281498142_838fb4f86b_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/erinandshady/876ef2)

Now my rack goes slightly in the opposite direction! (That's how off my defective fork was, that even with my rack being slightly off to the right, it was significantly off to the left before.)

https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7211/27103529970_19b0502ed7_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/erinandshady/u6ZT2R)

I did a few rough measurements on the rack and it has some slight irregularities. Now that the fork is sorted out, I'll either live with it or bend, use washers or slightly ovalize one of the holes to straighten it out. In any case, just glad to have the bike together and be done with this project. Just have to wrap the handlebars once I'm happy with my bar placement!

[sfhbike]

And finally all done with this build. This bike handles and rides very nicely:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1995219&postcount=15