OT Miami arrests

[JohnS]

I'm confused (worse than usual). I can almost understand Middle Easterners who have no concept of democracy or tolerance hating us. What I don't understand is people born here who hate us for who we are. Yes, we aren't perfect but how could someone born here hate us that much? Just about any American has it better here than if they lived in any of the countries that hate us. :confused:

[obtuse]

I'm confused (worse than usual). I can almost understand Middle Easterners who have no concept of democracy or tolerance hating us. What I don't understand is people born here who hate us for who we are. Yes, we aren't perfect but how could someone born here hate us that much? Just about any American has it better here than if they lived in any of the countries that hate us. :confused:


it's not that they hate "us". it's that their enamored with something else that gives meaning and value to their existence.

obtuse

[Zard]

The simplest thing is to criticize, hate and destroy. I guess there are some of us here who feel that the United States / western culture is a failure, a washout if you will, and instead of making the effort to build and improve would just rather see the whole thing go away in order to accomodate their own philosophies and lifestyles.

[Fixed]

bro hate doesn't care where it is born
cheers

[eddief]

both personal and cultural, I believe it is natural for the human condition to fill the void. If all you have is a tv, the images shown there, I believe, do have the potential to influence behavior. Let's face it, besides the rhetoric spat out by the gov, there is not much of a national model in the US.
I am not saying it's not a hugely free place to live, but some handle it better than others.

As a wonderful and smart friend of mine would say, "people are stupid."

[dbrk]

There was a telling and insightful article in the NYTimes magazine a few weeks ago by David Brooks about the American dream, imagination, the exurbanite phenomenon of antiseptic sub-divisions and various other fantasies that provide image, comfort, and a sense of purpose to a significant portion of Americans. I was wholeheartedly in agreement with his analysis but, as usual, in as just as much disagreement with his assumptions and conclusions (viz., that this is simply the next phase of an American imagination of ideal life, "go west young man," etc...). I would recommend this piece though it seems hard to believe even he thinks this is a good idea.

I think these homegrown terrorists are too living out their fantasies, comparable in some bizarre way to the way guys who buy clothes from Orvis want to look all sporty and fishing-like and manly, or Peterman to imagine their conversations with Hemingway or Bogart. With the complaisancy of wealth comes the living out of imaginary identities made real, from Civil War re-enactors to guys in TdF kit, it's all of a piece. Put another way, like a rock, it's Chevy trucks or Viagra, we all need something to tell us who we are. And these guys chose radical Islam, nihilism, and a course bent upon self-destruction---the goal is 74 (I can never get that number right) virgins in heaven or one virgin who is 74, the Qu'ran is anything but clear on the matter. So we have it: more Americans trying to live out their dreams. Some are reasonably healthy and innocuous (like, say, us...) and others wanna blow us (and themselves) up. Makes sense to me. People just want some meaning and when they have the means, they buy it.

dbrk

[Sandy]

We should try to determine precisely what dynamics cause terrorists to choose their particular fantasies. It would give us a much better understanding and ability to combat and possibly help change or modify such perceptions and goals.


Sandy

[oracle]

lumping human beings into monolitithic groups may be convienient and make for good headlines, but it does little to facilitate understanding of the complexities involved in the analysis of the west versus the 'middle east'. where exactly is that place? or middle easterners.....who are they? do people mean muslims worldwide when referring to them, or are they confining their geographical and cultural periphery to a classically orientalist model? as fixed said, hate doesn't care where its born, and sandy suggests understanding what motivates the fantastic world of a would-be terrorist, and that would be a really productive dialouge to open for a broader audience.

[catulle]

There is a thread here about professions and about getting lip for the work we do. Some of the answers to the original post point out that criticism might not be a bad thing. People are not suicidal for the hell of it. Maybe we should be a little humble and stop for a minute to think what it is that we might be doing wrong. There must be a thing or two that we might want to straighten out in a system where we spend our lives in the pursuit of money; and where what you're worth is what you are. Asking people to try to work out society's problems by way of the system instead of throwing bombs makes a lot of sense, unless you're destitute and hopeless.

Gosh, I told myself: Don't even open the title's thread. Whatever, I'm over and out, atmo.

[Ray]

With the complaisancy of wealth comes the living out of imaginary identities made real, from Civil War re-enactors to guys in TdF kit, it's all of a piece. Put another way, like a rock, it's Chevy trucks or Viagra, we all need something to tell us who we are. And these guys chose radical Islam, nihilism, and a course bent upon self-destruction---the goal is 74 (I can never get that number right) virgins in heaven or one virgin who is 74, the Qu'ran is anything but clear on the matter. So we have it: more Americans trying to live out their dreams. Some are reasonably healthy and innocuous (like, say, us...) and others wanna blow us (and themselves) up. Makes sense to me. People just want some meaning and when they have the means, they buy it.

Right on Douglas. I've been into two things deeply enough to question my motives for gettng involved - cycling and, before that, the Grateful Dead. In both cases, I've wondered about my obsessive level of participation, but in both cases I was able to rationalize that they're benign behaviors that don't hurt anyone else and they seem to do me a lot of good, so I may as well keep on playing, as it were.

I think a common thread running through a level of hate that people are willing to die for is religious fundamentalism. I think it's a very dangerous mistake to combine religion (ANY religion - even mine) and government. There aren't many ideals that people are willing to die for (standard of living - yes, but idiology - not many), but they always seem to involve religion and religion out at the most fundamental, un-nuanced margins. Until we can get past the idea that our imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend and that you should DIE for that, this stuff is gonna happen. With middle easterners mired in poverty (I've spent time in the Arab world, it's wicked poor by any standards we can even begin to imagine), there's a material componant mixed in with the religious fundamentalism. For Americans, probably not.

Unfortunately, there are always gonna be people out at the margins for whom being right is more important than being alive or letting others stay alive. But hopefully, not that many.

-Ray

[wdlewis]

The full article is too long to post, but here is a lead-in to the best explanation I've ever seen. I'm sure Google can lead you to the full article.

"On July 15, MSNBC's "Connected" program discussed the 7/7 London attacks. One of the guests was Pierre Rehov, a French filmmaker who has filmed six documentaries on the intifada by going undercover in the Palestinian areas. Pierre's upcoming film, "Suicide Killers," is based on interviews that he conducted with the families of suicide bombers and would-be bombers in an attempt to find out why they do it. Pierre agreed to a request for a Q&A
interview here about his work on the new film. Many thanks to Dean Draznin and Arlyn Riskind for helping to arrange this special interview."

The bottom line of the article is that their hate stems from their religion and their circumstances.

[Climb01742]

this may sound too flip, and it's not meant to counter any of the possible explanations already given but to offer another "explanation": when i hear of people filled with hate i sometimes think of, strangely, the boomtown rats...specifically "there are no reasons because there are no reasons." hey, even a blind boomtown rat finds an acorn occasionally.

one other thought: there is a difference between a valid criticism of a government, a country or a culture and blowing up a building. but i can't think of a boomtown rat lyric that fits that thought. maybe i should try milli vanilli?

[oldmill]

And let's not forget that the first major incidence of terrorism on U.S. soil, the Oklahoma City bombing, was home grown. That doesn't explain the Miami developments, but it does make them less exceptional, and it speaks to Ray's point about fanaticism over religion/government.

[Andreu]

......so much freedom (in the "west") that many of us do not know what to do with it.

[Kevan]

IMAGINE
by John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

In John's world we might find peace, but we'd lose our diversity and passion too. I would miss the color. I'm pretty sure mankind isn't cut out for such an existence; it isn't in our nature.

Distortion from reality is almost benign in the individual because they are aware they are alone, possibly embarassed by their own notions. That sense of what is right and what is wrong keeps most individuals in check, if the village has done well to instill such consideration in the person. That individual, in congress with others, is able to sway and confirm opinion, change the rules of what is "right", to an extent that they themselves "imagine" a better world. Hitler and the nazis come to mind. At a smaller scale, those that brought us the events at Oklahoma City and Columbine are much the same.

Americans need to alter their lifestyle so we're in the face of our neighbors. There have to be more front porches built so we can watch our kids play with others, keep them in behavioral bounds. No more gated communities and back patios offering isolation and that false sense of safety; us verses them. We need to face one another, deal with what makes us different. The front porch is simply a small scale of what we need to do with our neighboring nations. We can't continue to be the world's "big brother" as much as we might like to be, or perhaps need to be. We need to fall in line and exhibit good behavior as any other nation should.

[Tom]

How does a person get to the point where strapping dynamite to themselves and blowing themselves and a few others up is a better alternative to just about every other course of action?

Yes. Some people aren't thinking and there is no reason they got there and you can't do much about them. A lot of them are very smart people, however, as smart as many corresponding here. It's about god damn time people started thinking about how that happens. Until then, nothing's going to change and we'll have our "Breaking Story" videos to entertain us and keep us dutifully in line.

[Avispa]

....Asking people to try to work out society's problems by way of the system instead of throwing bombs makes a lot of sense, unless you're destitute and hopeless.

Gosh, I told myself: Don't even open the title's thread. Whatever, I'm over and out, atmo.

Word!

I wonder, however, what kind of bubble Livonia, MI is?

[swoop]

steel is real!

oh.. wrong thread.

[JohnS]

Word!

I wonder, however, what kind of bubble Livonia, MI is?
Livonia isn't a bubble, it's a suburb of Detroit. I worked 28yrs for the Detroit Schools and lived there for 31 years. So I know all about hardship and being underpriveleged. It still doesn't make any sense to me.

[jl123]

Kevan wrote:
"Americans need to alter their lifestyle so we're in the face of our neighbors. There have to be more front porches built so we can watch our kids play with others, keep them in behavioral bounds. No more gated communities and back patios offering isolation and that false sense of safety; us verses them. We need to face one another, deal with what makes us different. The front porch is simply a small scale of what we need to do with our neighboring nations. We can't continue to be the world's "big brother" as much as we might like to be, or perhaps need to be. We need to fall in line and exhibit good behavior as any other nation should."

I believe those are smart and perceptive ideas.

I was born, raised and somehow still live in NYC- right smack dab on Manhattan island now for 37 years. I can't quite believe just how fast these last 10 years have gone, taking me from basically a care-free youth to something now not old but by most accounts, not young; albeit still "youthful".

This city and the changes I have seen I believe highlight- and may be an accelerated version of, that process Kevan describes occurring across America today. (Although I seriously doubt that any cross section of our country could possibly gain such a concentration of wealth as is here.)

In Manhattan I see *almost no front-porches- or that is for us stoops or for this matter any casual congregating of people in public. I think thats a pretty darn serious problem. Most everyone's alone or in 2's or as a families. *Yes the odd concert or major event does show the coming together of like minded "fans", but that's just it, there're fans, people who come together most always for someone/thing else: a political/religious meeting/protest, to see a super-star sports figure, actor or rock star; indeed such people who I never see come together to seek out and meet the home-grown local talent- that is specifically, themselves! You, me and whoever actually coming together and actually seeking to go out to meet new people- something I did do and saw a good bit of until somewhere around the late 90's by which time such activity had already been on a major decline.

I read recently that worldwide there are close to 9 million millionaires, it would seem that based on the huge prices paid in rent and for purchase of apartments here in Manhattan, (the average is way over a million now) that a large proportion of these 9 million either live here - that's below 96th street and mostly on one island, or keep second homes here. I must say that Manhattan is one of, if not *the strangest place I have ever been to or heard about, in its intense division between the hugely poor and the hugely wealthy traveling and working side to side, but socializing and living in separate dimensions. Its summer now, and right from Thursday night, summer and fall weekends, Mahanttan is crazy quiet, more than at any time I have ever seen. There is little traffic- cars or foot, so many have left, gone to semi or very exclusive retreats to be with the few who also share their capacity/passion/ or ability for making lots of money, spending it on exclusivity, and using it for socio-political modifications to our culture/media/policy's/laws- indeed being or living the exclusive life. Think Bill Clinton, Jerry Seinfeld, Ruppert Murdoch, Puff daddy, 5 hedge fund managers, 3 supermarket heirs, an ex-press secretary, and the girls, sipping cocktails tonight at Denise Rich's manison in the Hamptons.

Yes, America is calmer now, more restrained, safer, indeed most young people are more likely to go on-line and play grand-theft auto than they are to actually be charged with "grand-theft auto", and that's no doubt a good thing. And by a similar token older folks are likely to stay in more secluded environments- cruising the internet or channel surfing, and going to specific "events". But I agree with Kevan here, there is an inherent psychology to all us humans at work behind the scene's, residing in most all of our minds. And this is our *need to be social creatures, an innate affinity to be live - to see, hear and emote amongst others and importantly in person. To have such an on going living dialogue where all our acts be they: analytical, emotional, physical, behavioral and imaginary- brand new, are constantly put to the test, and are accepted, adored, scorned, improved, laughed at and loved.

This is what makes most of us feel good about ourselves whether one believes themselves "shy", "average" or "suberb"- eg, the "man" the top athlete, scholar, wordsmith, or other; to believe that indeed what they think, say and do is still special in some way, is appreciated and respected by others. They are special because their smile means something, the way they talk, the way they stutter or flinch, or yell, or stare or blush is them! What makes us feel alive and vibrant and happy, *is all of us living out the innate fact that just being a thoughtful, caring person who is thought about and cared about and who is in the game, live, who is in the conversation now, tomorrow, and for as many days to come for as long as they and their friends can stand each other (hopefully a long time if they know what freindship is), is all we can ever hope to be, and is as good as it ever can be.

[Ti Designs]

Maybe we should be a little humble and stop for a minute to think what it is that we might be doing wrong.

Pretty much everything for the last 20 years, but I'm not planning on blowing up any buildings... Life is often not the picture your hopes and dreams paint. Some people blame themselves, others blame the world around them. Before we can address who people blame there is the question of why life is so disapointing. People can live in far worse conditions than we have here and not feel the same disapointment, others blame those who have more. For those who have more, it's got to be that mental image of the perfect life.