Lance admits EPO use?

[MartyE]

Found this after hearing something on the news about it.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2006-06-23T095903Z_01_L23390139_RTRUKOC_0_US-CYCLING-ARMSTRONG.xml&archived=False

It will be intersting to see how this one gets spun.

marty

[atmo]

Found this after hearing something on the news about it.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2006-06-23T095903Z_01_L23390139_RTRUKOC_0_US-CYCLING-ARMSTRONG.xml&archived=False

It will be intersting to see how this one gets spun.

marty


old news -
glad to see it is finally "out there" atmo.

[Tony Edwards]

EDIT: D'oh! Misunderstood the article. This isn't good, if true, but it still relates to drug use before his Tour wins. Presumably it would be in his medical records if it's true.

[LegendRider]

old news -
glad to see it is finally "out there" atmo.

The rumor of him admitting drug use in the hospital in front of Frankie has been circulating for years. It will be interesting to see if it is confirmed by a source other than L'Equipe (i.e., court records, etc.)

[LegendRider]

I take it from that article that he was "admitting" to taking these drugs under a prescription and doctor's orders as part of his cancer recovery. This sounds like nothing but cheap innuendo by Le Monde.

Armstrong readily admits he took EPO legitimately during his recovery. The "admission" referred to in the L'Equipe article is that he took P.E.D.s during his pre-cancer racing career.

[J.Greene]

I'm not sure why anybody would be shocked. The evidence has been out there for years. I think the yellow wrist bands have a blinding effect atmo. If you take it off the world is alot clearer.

JG

[Fixed]

bro performance enhancing drugs to get up out of bed to go to the bathroom or to eat or to stay alive .
cheers

[Russell]

Found this after hearing something on the news about it.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2006-06-23T095903Z_01_L23390139_RTRUKOC_0_US-CYCLING-ARMSTRONG.xml&archived=False

It will be intersting to see how this one gets spun.

marty

There's nothing to spin. EPO is used to help with the effects of chemo. If I recall correctly, he even said so in one of his books. The spin is with the article in trying to make his legitimate use of an effective medical drug as an admission to using performance enhancing drugs.

[J.Greene]

There's nothing to spin. EPO is used to help with the effects of chemo. If I recall correctly, he even said so in one of his books. The spin is with the article in trying to make his legitimate use of an effective medical drug as an admission to using performance enhancing drugs.

The allegations refer to BEFORE he was diagnosed with Cancer.

JG

[Russell]

The allegations refer to BEFORE he was diagnosed with Cancer.

JG

Oops, re-read it. Not good.

[J.Greene]

Oops, re-read it. Not good.


what is sad about this ongoing issue is that unlike barry bonds, Lance has done many really good things. About everything thing you can think of to compliment the guy on is true. Unfortunately many of the bad rumors might be true also. This is going to live on until we have another tdf star to focus on because there is no way to prove Lance didn't juice. There is also no accpeted and controlled way to prove he did.

JG

[Bobbo]

As previously stated, this story has been around for awhile. (FWIW, I'm not aware of Frankie's denying the story) If it's true, the evidence is in the doctor's patient file for Armstrong, which will have noted any previous drugs taken. Andreu's court statement would also be a smoking gun, although it would still be Andreu's testimony. Andreu seems like a straight shooter, so one would expect his testimony to be an honest one.

Don't know how HIPAA laws, Dr.-Patient confidentiality plays into this, but if someone really wants to know the truth about this story, I'm sure they can find a way around it.

[Too Tall]

I'm really don't give a good g-d d@amn however a point which issimo's do and should be pizz'd about is the fact he said something to the effect ""I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance-enhancing drugs blah blah blah".

(Cough...buhlsheite)

Those who live in glass houses should never leave their spouses ;)

[dave thompson]

Those who live in glass houses should never leave their spouses ;)
...or stow thrones.

[nicrump]

i know i'll regret this but.... If he didn’t have lawyers combing the earth looking under every rock for someone to bring lawsuit against, his secret would be safe.

[swoop]

this has done the rounds a few times over the years. it's compelling and the bit about lemond is often referenced as the starting point of their little 'feud'. i've even forwarded an email version of this to friends a few times as entertainment. it's infotainment.

here's a weak spot ... a medical doctor wouldn't likely differentiate between the uci list of banned substances and any performance enhancing drugs. he would just ask about his history... 'what drugs have you taken in the past?" and anything lance says would be right there on his medical records. lots of drugs that promote growth do also promote cancer (the overgrowth of cells). lance the control freak certainly wouldn't answer the question in a room full of people. i'm not sure any doc would ask the question in a room full of people.

i do absolutely believe at a minimum that at some point in his career lance doped...(this is personal opinion and not fact.. pure specualtion.. i have no evidence) and i also believe that if he did.. enough people are involved that it will eventually shake out in a clearer way. somewhere they will be a wasps nest of some sort to be explained. be patient. i don't know of any young american riders that get thrown into euro racing that don't end up at least considering that they might have to dope to just stay in the pack. bike racing over there isn't what it is over here. this is an ungodly tough sport.

i want you to name any podium winner of a grand tour... post lemond... that hasn't really doped. hgh, pot belge, epo...

and then i want you to get your bike. go ride 130 miles. do the last 60 miles at your threshold. repeat it every day for three weeks. hurt yourself.
try to get fit enough that you can dig deep enough that you actually get tunnel vision.


lemond was being kind when he said the suffering is the same.. its' not true... they suffer more, deeper, longer, and it takes years off the end of their lives. suffering is a skill unto itself. and at their level it's beyound what you can comprehend.

do this riding no matter how hot or cold or wet... and tell me how the hell you recover between days about 12 days in. at about the second week you can't even take food in.. let alone 8ooo calories. arron olsen after his first giro was telling my friend about how hard it was to just eat anything. can you imagine?
now imagine some irrational sponsor that insists that you win to justify their investment... and some freaky old school euro dudes with some freaky values and rationales making themselves into father figures and having the ability to test you within the team before you even get off the bus and will just send you home with 'stomach problems' if you hematocrit level is too high. and in this scenario imagine that you are a kid. that your own emotional growth has been behind the curve because you're an athlete and you don't get to emotionally develop at the same right as guys that aren't athletes do... and how the hell do you not dope?

imagine doing all this in an environment where doping has been a normalized part of the culture. it's hard not to at least consider dope just to stay healthy enough to ride the next day. it's also hard to confront the level of denial from the fans that expect you to ride in some inhuman way and then are incredulous and hurt when dope is mentioned.

atmo. yes i think he did. yes there are clean riders too. and yes i think every one of them at some point have had to make that decision. it's the guys that struggle with it and eventually come out of it in one piece that i respect. it's why i want millar to stomp the prologue.

i respect every one of those guys.... cycling is the jazz of sports.. you give it your life and you still get sh*t on. i'd love to sport to be clean. the riders are the symptom and not the cancer.

end rant.

[dave thompson]

<snip>.......end rant.
An excellent one! You put things in perspective. Thanks.

[Too Tall]

Swoop, if you can relate....this is exactly why I love to watch the olympics. You'll see these emotionally driven HUGE talents untainted by (fill in the blank).

You'll still see me glued to TDF coverage becuase I don't think about the cheats and it is without a doubt one of the greatest sporting events EVER :)

[MartyE]

swoop,

thanks for that. It's probably the best perspective on doping that
I've read anywhere. It really brings the issues into sharp focus.

and yah, I'm still gonna be glued to the tv or monitor everytime a race is broadcast

marty

[Grant McLean]

go ride 130 miles. do the last 60 miles at your threshold. repeat it every day for three weeks. hurt yourself.
try to get fit enough that you can dig deep enough that you actually get tunnel vision.

...snip


do this riding no matter how hot or cold or wet... and tell me how the hell you recover between days about 12 days in. at about the second week you can't even take food in.. let alone 8ooo calories. arron olsen after his first giro was telling my friend about how hard it was to just eat anything. can you imagine? end rant.

But isn't that the whole point of sport, that "normal" people can't do it?
If everyone could do it, why would they be our idols?

I've trained for 25 years, and I know I'll never be anywhere near as good as
a waterboy. That's why I love to watch them do what they do. They are
awesome, and I'm merely mortal. More and more, I am finding that I want a clean
sport. Before I didn't really care, but it's starting to piss me off. When
Grand Tour winner's are being punted, and 2nd place is now a Tour winner
two months later, it's getting all eff'd up.

g

[Climb01742]

this has done the rounds a few times over the years. it's compelling and the bit about lemond is often referenced as the starting point of their little 'feud'. i've even forwarded an email version of this to friends a few times as entertainment. it's infotainment.

here's a weak spot ... a medical doctor wouldn't likely differentiate between the uci list of banned substances and any performance enhancing drugs. he would just ask about his history... 'what drugs have you taken in the past?" and anything lance says would be right there on his medical records. lots of drugs that promote growth do also promote cancer (the overgrowth of cells). lance the control freak certainly wouldn't answer the question in a room full of people. i'm not sure any doc would ask the question in a room full of people.

i do absolutely believe at a minimum that at some point in his career lance doped...(this is personal opinion and not fact.. pure specualtion.. i have no evidence) and i also believe that if he did.. enough people are involved that it will eventually shake out in a clearer way. somewhere they will be a wasps nest of some sort to be explained. be patient. i don't know of any young american riders that get thrown into euro racing that don't end up at least considering that they might have to dope to just stay in the pack. bike racing over there isn't what it is over here. this is an ungodly tough sport.

i want you to name any podium winner of a grand tour... post lemond... that hasn't really doped. hgh, pot belge, epo...

and then i want you to get your bike. go ride 130 miles. do the last 60 miles at your threshold. repeat it every day for three weeks. hurt yourself.
try to get fit enough that you can dig deep enough that you actually get tunnel vision.


lemond was being kind when he said the suffering is the same.. its' not true... they suffer more, deeper, longer, and it takes years off the end of their lives. suffering is a skill unto itself. and at their level it's beyound what you can comprehend.

do this riding no matter how hot or cold or wet... and tell me how the hell you recover between days about 12 days in. at about the second week you can't even take food in.. let alone 8ooo calories. arron olsen after his first giro was telling my friend about how hard it was to just eat anything. can you imagine?
now imagine some irrational sponsor that insists that you win to justify their investment... and some freaky old school euro dudes with some freaky values and rationales making themselves into father figures and having the ability to test you within the team before you even get off the bus and will just send you home with 'stomach problems' if you hematocrit level is too high. and in this scenario imagine that you are a kid. that your own emotional growth has been behind the curve because you're an athlete and you don't get to emotionally develop at the same right as guys that aren't athletes do... and how the hell do you not dope?

imagine doing all this in an environment where doping has been a normalized part of the culture. it's hard not to at least consider dope just to stay healthy enough to ride the next day. it's also hard to confront the level of denial from the fans that expect you to ride in some inhuman way and then are incredulous and hurt when dope is mentioned.

atmo. yes i think he did. yes there are clean riders too. and yes i think every one of them at some point have had to make that decision. it's the guys that struggle with it and eventually come out of it in one piece that i respect. it's why i want millar to stomp the prologue.

i respect every one of those guys.... cycling is the jazz of sports.. you give it your life and you still get sh*t on. i'd love to sport to be clean. the riders are the symptom and not the cancer.

end rant.

when i asked dario if he thought pro riders doped, his answer was basically yours, just shorter and in italian-inflected english. ;) he said just try riding 200k a day, fast, and doing it with a sponsor breathing down your neck 250 days a year.

[93legendti]

But isn't that the whole point of sport, that "normal" people can't do it?
If everyone could do it, why would they be our idols?

I've trained for 25 years, and I know I'll never be anywhere near as good as
a waterboy. That's why I love to watch them do what they do. They are
awesome, and I'm merely mortal...g

Exactly. To quote Tom Hanks (Jimmy Duggan): "Of course it is hard. The hard make it great. If it wasn't hard, everyone could do it."

[flydhest]

I am finding that I want a clean
sport.

You really gotta define what that means. It's inhuman and unnatural to rehydrate yourself with an IV of saline, but is that "dirty"?

There are all sorts of things that can be "derived" from natural sources, where does one draw the line, or does one fall back on the pornography definition--I know it when I see it.

Fundamentally, though, if you and millions of others feel that way, the answer is simple. I'll repeat myself, but paraphrase e-richie: no likey, no buyee.

The big money from--ultimately--the fans of the sport leads to it.

[bobscott]

Swoop's commentary does a very nice joy of bringing many aspects of cycling and doping into view. Not to offend Swoop but I am sorry to say that similar empassioned arguments could be made to justify breaking any rules or laws which by their very nature will be unfair to some. Taking banned or not yet banned substances still in the end sets one up on an unstable pennicle as we read on a regular basis these days.
In the end this is still cheating and everyone knows it. This is especially true if the best "supplements" can only be afforded by the most "successful" riders as was mentioned recently in the Jalabert affair.
Yes, this is certainly the most grueling of sports but breaking the rules, especially if there is differential access to the "good s**t", is cheating. This not only dirties the sport in numerous ways but leads to less rather than more exciting competition.

[Fixed]

bro then I guess pros have always used p.e.d. to get through a grand tour .
the playing field should be the same for everyone i.m.h.o.
cheers

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think Swoop has hit a bull's eye on the sport angle, but as a journalist, this Reuters story reeks of spin and misinformation. Reporter, or editor, or source has presented just enough information to make the story look sensational, without presenting the extenuating circumstances that would deflate the hype balloon. It's standard procedure more and more these days as more sources, from major sports figures down to surprisingly local politicians, hire PR firms to manage their media affairs. We see it all the time here locally, and it's always fun to puncture their little balloon with some honest basic reporting.

This is the first I've heard of any supposed sworn testimony from Frankie or Kristin, but Lance has never made any secret that he took EPO while undergoing chemo--exactly the situation for which it was intended. By this time he has accumulated so many Lance-Haters that no matter WHAT he says, someone is going to start yapping about how he's not telling the truth. I'm no Lance fan anymore, but disingenuous stories like this that deliberately try to make him look bad for the sake of yet another "scoop" are just over the top . . .

BBD

[flydhest]

Taking banned or not yet banned substances still in the end sets one up on an unstable pennicle as we read on a regular basis these days.
In the end this is still cheating and everyone knows it.
Categorically false. Cheating is breaking the rules. The rules are what's on the list. Taking something that's not on the list is not cheating. When caffeine was on the list, taking too high a dose was cheating. Now that it's not on the list, it's not cheating. So many self-righteous types want to make it seem as if the world is black and white. Even Acqua-Sappone jerseys weren't that stark.


This is especially true if the best "supplements" can only be afforded by the most "successful" riders as was mentioned recently in the Jalabert affair.
Yes, this is certainly the most grueling of sports but breaking the rules, especially if there is differential access to the "good s**t", is cheating. This not only dirties the sport in numerous ways but leads to less rather than more exciting competition.

What about if different training techniques can only be afforded by the most "successful" riders? Lance could afford hypobaric chambers. Some have said that that was cheating. Training at altitude is an old-fashioned way of doing it. Teams with big budgets could do that while those on meager budgets could not. I don't see how expense is a valid metric for legality.

[nick0137]

2 thoughts

(1) If lawyers look under rocks do they ever find anything other than more lawyers?

(2) The whole story sounds goofy and there are so many unknowns. Lance gets asked about his pre-illness and cycling related drug use after his brain surgery? Yeah, so the guy plans the op, puts him under general, opens up his skull, digs around, fastens him back up and then asks the question? I'm no doc but that don't sound likely. And then Lance just volunteers his whole history of performance enhancing drug use in front of a crowd? Maybe, if he was ill and thought he'd never race again anyway, I suppose. Of course, by the time of his surgery, Lance would have had many months of cancer treatment, all of which might have involved the drugs mentioned in the newspaper article. But, then again, why would the doc need to ask about those cos they would be on his medical records already? I'm confused.....

PS FWIW I'm with Swoop on whether Lance did or didn't.

[LegendRider]

Categorically false. Cheating is breaking the rules. The rules are what's on the list. Taking something that's not on the list is not cheating. When caffeine was on the list, taking too high a dose was cheating. Now that it's not on the list, it's not cheating. So many self-righteous types want to make it seem as if the world is black and white. Even Acqua-Sappone jerseys weren't that stark.

While I agree with you, Steve Bauer might not. Eddy Planckaert admitted to taking EPO the year he beat Bauer by one centimeter at Paris-Roubaix. It wasn't on the banned list at that point, but he certainly violated the spirit of the rules.

[keno]

olympics untainted? It's time for you to take off for the weekend, 'cause your mind ain't right (I'll even spot you the pro cyclists participating, leaving you, for example, the iron guys, the fast feet, and the fish). Then, again, I may have missed a touch of sarcasm on your part.

BTW, will you be at TTown tomorrow?

keno

[Too Tall]

Good point KenO way to take the rose off my glasses sport :rolleyes:

I knew that yet am seeing past that because the venue ,and I TRULY believe this, is rife with fresh untainted talent.

Putting my anti-peril shades back on and no can't be at Trexlertown tommorrow...taking up a new sport. Not kidding.

[Fat Robert]

It does not matter to me whether he did or did not dope -- his era is done. If he did dope, you can't change the race results. If he didn't, then he can still market the hero thing. For me, he isn't a hero, just a very good bike rider and businessman, who appears to either be a victim of the envy of others, a very strong personality who makes and breaks relationships with equal force, a single-minded crusader for himself, a Randian protagonist struggling against the corruption around him, a chemically-enhanced fraud, or perhaps all of these and more.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun23news2

[Too Tall]

I like Fat Robert.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. .. today's Velonews. After reading it, I find the whole thing murky, murky, MURKY . . .

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10088.0.html

Andreu's wife (NOT Kristin, as I thought I had read earlier) was the only one at the reported hospital meeting who claims she heard this "admission." All of the others there claim no such "admission" was made, and one of the doctor's states he would definitely have recorded it if Lance HAD said what he had taken in the past. Indeed, I have had surgery myself (though not for cancer) and that's pretty much standard procedure with ANY surgery--they want to know what you have taken in the past to make sure it doesn't complicate things while you're on the table and lead to a toe tag and a big lawsuit. In fact, it's standard procedure whever you even go see a new doctor . . . Maybe, just MAYBE Betsy Andreau misheard something? Or mis-remembered something? After all, I can't even properly remember what I read a few minutes before in the Reuters story about it being Kristin, and here Betsy A. is being asked to remember back YEARS and accurately regurgitate it . . .

This just sounds like yet another small facet of the same big blade on the same humongous axe that L'Equipe has been grinding for how long, now? Certain people at these publications (L'Equipe, Sunday Times, etc.) see an opportunity to sell yet more papers by seizing on any detail to keep the story alive, and they aren't about to let the truth get in their way.

BBD

[Fat Robert]

murky? you want murky? how about greg lemond recording the phone conversation with the oakley employee, who was also in the room?

[Fixed]

fat robert's the man

[Too Tall]

Oh noooooooooooooo.
Does Greg live in one of those Moderne' Houses too?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I assume this is the part of the Cyclingnews.com report you are referring to? . . .

<<<But a third person present at the hospital in 1996, Stephanie McIlvain, an employee of Armstrong's sunglasses sponsor Oakley, denied the Andreus' version of events. In her testimony on November 14, 2005, she said that there was no conversation like that between Armstrong and his doctors. But her story has been questioned by Greg Lemond, who recorded a phone conversation with McIlvain on September 21, 2004, where she said, "If I am cited, I'll do it...For I won't lie. You know I was in the room. I heard.">>>

So she heard . . . heard WHAT, exactly? The implication the story makes is that she heard Armstrong admit to taking the substances. But without the FULL context of the statement indicating exactly what it was she heard, the statement is the story is next to worthless. This is where news stories like this dealing with vey complex testimony break down. I would not want to draw any real conclusion about this without being able to read the FULL transcript of her testimony. But I'm not given that. I'm just given snippets supplied by various sources to support THEIR various viewpoints. It's no secret that Lemond doesn't like Armstrong . . . of COURSE he would question an account that seems to exonerate Armstrong. But I have to wonder if he also records ALL his phone calls with people in the cycling industry . . .

Additionally, why were Armstrong's then girlfriend, Lisa Shiels, his trainer Chris Carmichael, and Carmichael's wife Paige not also called to testify? Why would Betsy Andreu harbor a grudge against Armstrong? And why would Andreau himself seemingly commit perjury to support his wife? And what about the actual medical records that would have recorded Lance's answers to these pre-chemo questions. Were those available to inspect?

It would appear to me that the reporters--I assume from L'Equipe--have cherry-picked the transcripts of the proceedings in order to put Armstrong in the most incriminating light possible. Without being able to read the FULL transcript of all testimony, including whatever medical records may have been submitted as evidence, we simply have to take the word of Lemonde and L'Equipe for it all--and these publications have made it pretty clear from past performance that they are hell-bent on discrediting Armstrong.

BBD

[Kevan]

I didn't do it, I tell ya! (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/06/23/bc.cyc.armstrong.doping.ap/index.html?cnn=yes)

[tch]

at the risk of repeating myself: I gotta believe that doping is pretty common, if not rampant, in pro cycling. There's just too much pressure in all ways (read Swoop's post if you need refreshing). Until there is an infallible, 100% accurate, no-way-to-get-around-it testing protocol, there will always be those who are willing to circumvent the rules and use every last means to get top performance. I also believe that this is so true to human nature that most, if not all, the top riders and teams tacitly agree that this is how it is. That's why there isn't more outcry among riders/directors. Although it's against the rules, everybody is doing it, so ironically the field is level for the dopers (sux for the non-dopers!). And, there is a huge contigent of vested interests (sponsors, trainers, manufacturers, organizers) which mitigates against change in the system.

If this is how it is (and I believe it is), then Lance is still incredible. He won 7 times against the best that there was. Does anyone really believe that he was alone in doping if he was doping? That Jan and Ivan and Marco did not dope at all? Come on! The problem is way bigger than one person. I can't believe that Lance's competition wasn't doing everything Lance did -- or even more. The one thing I am sure of in my bones is that Lance -- dope or no dope -- competed against riders who were mostly either doped or clean just like he was.

Therefore, I'm only interested in the doping controversy in the largest terms. What is needed is system reform. Focusing on one individual puts the blame in the wrong place.

[catulle]

I like Fat Robert.

Yeah, well, he's kind'a awright, I guess... But I won't forgive him until he apologizes to me and Scarlett, atmo. :no:

[Fat Robert]

dave, I'm just saying its mur-kay. why would greg lemond tape the conversation to begin with? what were they talking about? are floyd's feet really that big? these are questions that we just aren't capable of answering.

[catulle]

dave, I'm just saying its mur-kay. why would greg lemond tape the conversation to begin with? what were they talking about? are floyd's feet really that big? these are questions that we just aren't capable of answering.

Hey, Floyd's feet look pretty big to me, atmo...

[Fat Robert]

Yeah, well, he's kind'a awright, I guess... But I won't forgive him until he apologizes to me and Scarlett, atmo. :no:

hey old robe-n-staff guy:

ok. you can eat in the market anytime, and I won't be offended. anything that isn't shameful in private isn't shameful in public, right? it doesn't grok with the way we do things here in the empire, but we equestrian cats can tolerate some local color. we'll even give you a garland.

scarlett and I are settled. I put a twenty in her g-string back when she was at Emerson's on Cherry Road here in the 803, and that was my last and final payment of all debt, public and private. legal tender here in the empire, or legal and tender, as it may have been at the time....

[catulle]

hey old robe-n-staff guy:

ok. you can eat in the market anytime, and I won't be offended. anything that isn't shameful in private isn't shameful in public, right? it doesn't grok with the way we do things here in the empire, but we equestrian cats can tolerate some local color. we'll even give you a garland.

scarlett and I are settled. I put a twenty in her g-string back when she was at Emerson's on Cherry Road here in the 803, and that was my last and final payment of all debt, public and private. legal tender here in the empire, or legal and tender, as it may have been at the time....

A twenty? Jeeez, you are cheap, dude. I'll just wait for her to bring it home, atmo. I guess I could buy a few PBRs with a twenty, iirc.

[Endless Goods]

"I stand by my deposition," Betsy Andreu told VeloNews Friday. "I didn't ask to be dragged into this mess ... We were served with subpoenas by a Michigan court and we had no choice but to testify."


so how big are floyd's feet anyhow? :p

[97CSI]

Why would Betsy Andreu harbor a grudge against Armstrong? And why would Andreau himself seemingly commit perjury to support his wife? BBDBetsy's husband had recently been canned by Postal. LA ran Postal. If he wanted Andreu out then out he was. Based on these two questions I am guessing your aren't and have never been married. :D

There is an open response (letter) from LA posted on today's Velonews.com website. Looks like LA kicks *** in court just like he did in the TdF. Look out Pound! Go Lance!!

If he only rode a lugged steel bike with Campy gear.

[Grant McLean]

Speaking of doping, i've got an effin' cold threatening to wipe out a weekend of riding.

I'd probally test positive i'm so full of pseudoephedrine, but wondering how
the heck you could ride on that stuff. I almost never take medicine,
and the cold med's kick my butt when i take them. I can hardly stand after
a few shots of NyQuil, you wouldn't want my wheel!

g

[spiderlake]

Did Frankie get canned or did he retire?? I thought I remembered hearing or reading that Frankie said he had one more tour left in him and that was in 2000. He retired in '01. Anyone else remember this?? Hey, I remember now where I heard that - it was on, The Tour, Baby and Frankie was being interviewed by Scott. IIRC, Frankie didn't ride but wasn't he still working for Postal in 2001 as their racing director in the US?

I don't have a point other than I don't think he had a reason to hold a grudge..... he also holds (or held) the record for most consecutive TDF finishes for an American. Plus, he races in the Iceman here in Traverse City so he's cool in my book. Done rambling.....

Betsy's husband had recently been canned by Postal. LA ran Postal. If he wanted Andreu out then out he was. Based on these two questions I am guessing your aren't and have never been married. :D

There is an open response (letter) from LA posted on today's Velonews.com website. Looks like LA kicks *** in court just like he did in the TdF. Look out Pound! Go Lance!!

If he only rode a lugged steel bike with Campy gear.

[Elefantino]

As a former sports columnist, current office-bound paper pusher and son of an 86-year-old cancer survivor and FOL, I have this to say:

Neither of them rides anymore.

-30-

Move on.

I am currently formulating the formula (hmm) for the TdF contest, the winner of which will receive something that I have around the house that I will not sell on eBay. Right now, I'm leaning toward picking the top five, taking total time, and subtracting time for podium spots.

Stay tuned.

[97CSI]

Did Frankie get canned or did he retire??He was informed that his services were no longer needed in any capacity by the Postal team. Fired, let go, resigned, whatever........he didn't have a job offer from Postal for the following year.

[spiderlake]

You made me dig deep into the bowels of the 'net to come up with a source that states Frankie continued to work for Postal after his riding days were over...... :beer: It probably doesn't mean a hill of beans but might suggest that he really didn't have an axe to grind..... or maybe he did?? who knows?? Complete article is at:

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=8830


So when you were a rider, did you visualize yourself as someday being a director?

When I retired in 2000, I was a director with U.S. Postal Service for two years. So I did that. Yeah, it's something I thought about. When I did it with Postal, I liked it. I enjoyed doing the logistics and enjoyed working with the team tactics and all that. So when I got out of that and started doing the television, this opportunity (with Toyota-United Pro) came around and I was looking forward to working with the riders and being at the races and being able to put together a team that hopefully will dominate here in America. So I jumped at it.

He was informed that his services were no longer needed in any capacity by the Postal team. Fired, let go, resigned, whatever........he didn't have a job offer from Postal for the following year.

[97CSI]

You made me dig deep into the bowels of the 'net to come up with a source that states Frankie continued to work for Postal after his riding days were over...... Never said he didn't continue to work for Postal once his riding days were over. Not sure where you came up with that. Only stated that he was not invited back to Postal. Regardless of how it was done, he was let go.

[Big Dan]

Some people just don't know Jack......... :crap:

[LegendRider]

Never said he didn't continue to work for Postal once his riding days were over. Not sure where you came up with that. Only stated that he was not invited back to Postal. Regardless of how it was done, he was let go.

You said this:
He was informed that his services were no longer needed in any capacity by the Postal team. Fired, let go, resigned, whatever........he didn't have a job offer from Postal for the following year.

To me, that sounds like you are saying he didn't continue to work for Postal.

[JohnS]

Wasn't he in charge at some US race when George made a stupid move and didn't place? I'm just trying to do this from memory. I always liked Frankie, seeing as he was a member of my club.

[93legendti]

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10091.0.html

"Statement from Lance Armstrong
I recently won a major arbitration, defeating allegations of performance enhancing drugs, after a three week trial. Several accusations made the subject of prior rumors were fully and finally considered by an impartial panel which heard many witnesses under oath. After years of litigation and three weeks of trial, and " having considered the evidence and testimony" the panel ordered the insurance company to pay, not the $5mm owed, but that $5mm and an additional $2.5mm, which confirms the baseless nature of the accusations. The allegations were rejected. It's over. We won. They lost. I was yet again completely vindicated...

The latest story, which alleges an admission of using performance enhancing drugs in a hospital in 1996, is today as absurd and untrue as when it was first circulated years ago. It never happened. The hospital allegation was made against me during a trial before three highly astute and respected arbitrators by an insurance company as its basis for not paying a 5mm bonus (and to recover $4.5mm paid for 2002 and 2003 bonuses) for winning the 2004 Tour de France. Not only did I win this trial, but the company was ordered to pay the $5mm plus an additional $2.5 mm in penalty...

The two persons relied upon by the French newspaper had a different story than the other 8 people in the room. Mr. and Mrs. Andreu stated that they left the room right after the statement, could remember no other questions asked before or after, no details of who I was allegedly talking to, whether men or women, whether doctors or residents, or why I would have been asked this information in front of 10 people, including my mother, in a TV room watching the Dallas Cowboys play football on a Sunday afternoon. By that Sunday, I had been in the hospital 11 days, had given numerous medical histories, previously undergone a regimen of intensive chemotherapy, and undergone extensive brain surgery on the prior Thursday. Ms. Andreu confirmed her ignorance of steroids prescribed as part of my post-operative treatment and of EPO also included in my required post-operative regimen, subjects which could conceivable arisen under the circumstances.

In addition to sworn testimony to the contrary by others present, the panel (and the insurance company) were provided certified copies of all medical records by the Indiana cancer hospital. While any suggestion that medical professionals did not take my medical history until three days after conducting extensive brain surgery is, on its face, preposterous, it is inconceivable that the records, which contain a description of every interaction with me, would not reflect such a critical response. There is no suggestion of either such a question or response in over 20 medical histories recorded among the 280 pages of records compiled during my hospital stay. My doctor, one of the premier cancer specialists in the country, also testified no such statement was made by me to him and a statement made to another would have to appear in the records. It's not there because it never happened..."

[97CSI]

Legendrider - Thank you.....that is pretty much it in a nut shell. And, if Frankie's wife is the 'normal' wife, regardless of how Frankie felt about whatever took place, she took it as a hit against her husband and wasn't happy. Perhaps enough to testify however she did testify. And, if marital bliss means anything to Frankie, he will do his best to back her on the issue. None of this is unusual. Simply the way most of us of this species happen to work. We do our best (which often isn't that great) to protect our own. My opinion is that the Andreus got in over their heads. You don't want to f*** with LA. He has too much money and too many powerful friends. And, he has built a near cult following. And, in many instances, for all his good work, does not appear to be a very nice person. None of which takes away from the fact that he is the best TdF rider and one of the best bicycle riders of all time. And, I don't think he needs peds. He is a driven man. 'Nuff said.

[Zard]

It's been a year since Lance "retired" and I swear he has been in the paper or on the news in one form or another every month since. I don't think he minds this stuff at all. Me thinks he desires it. Craves it. Can't live without it.

Are we going to be subjected to the Tao of Lance Armstrong for the rest of our lives?

[spiderlake]

:confused:

Never said he didn't continue to work for Postal once his riding days were over. Not sure where you came up with that. Only stated that he was not invited back to Postal. Regardless of how it was done, he was let go.

[Big Dan]

Once again, some people just don't what the heck they are talking about... :crap:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . he necessarily deserves it or craves it at all. And that's keeping in mind that he is definitely not one of my favorite people.

It has become crystal clear by this time that there are certain parties who really, really, REALLY don't like Lance and would love to see him and his record discredited. I think Mr. Richard Pound is one of them, for whatever reason. Certain parties in the French and British press are also in there.

But I also don't think Lance has helped matters at times with his obvious fondness for not just winning, but destroying his opponents in the process, in cycling and in any other area of conflict. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out from everything that's been written about him (veritable encyclopedias) that he is not the easiest person to either work for or with or to get along with. That tends to create enemies over time. He may be totally innocent, he may never have doped, but I think this may just be almost as much about the way he's treated people over time as it is about jealous celebrity or the possibility that he doped.

Regardless, if this is a sample of what his life after cycling is going to be like, good luck to him over the next 20 or 30 years . . .

BBD

[Kane]

-One of the riders at the end of his career was asked if he used drugs and his response was, "Do you think I rode 20,000 Kilometers last year and only used pasta for fuel." (It may have been Fignon (sp?).
-The French rider who won 5 Tour de Frances between 1956 and 1962, Jacques Antequeil (sp?) was asked in 1968 what he thought about the current drug scandal in cycling. He responded,"It would be really boring if everyone was averaging 15 miles per hour."

Assume that all the riders have taken something and that is the nature of the sport. It certainly levels the playing field. I remember the pompass *** Frenchman in charge of the Olympics in the 1960's and 1970's, and his insistance that all the athletes be 'true amateurs'. The testing will never catch up to the athletes.

[J.Greene]

. . . he necessarily deserves it or craves it at all. And that's keeping in mind that he is definitely not one of my favorite people.

It has become crystal clear by this time that there are certain parties who really, really, REALLY don't like Lance and would love to see him and his record discredited. I think Mr. Richard Pound is one of them, for whatever reason. Certain parties in the French and British press are also in there.

But I also don't think Lance has helped matters at times with his obvious fondness for not just winning, but destroying his opponents in the process, in cycling and in any other area of conflict. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out from everything that's been written about him (veritable encyclopedias) that he is not the easiest person to either work for or with or to get along with. That tends to create enemies over time. He may be totally innocent, he may never have doped, but I think this may just be almost as much about the way he's treated people over time as it is about jealous celebrity or the possibility that he doped.

Regardless, if this is a sample of what his life after cycling is going to be like, good luck to him over the next 20 or 30 years . . .

BBD

JG rule of politics #1 : Never pick fights with people who buy ink by the truckload.

JG

[GoJavs]

how everyone that comes out with allegations against LA is dismissed as a liar.....Wow....

If your scenario is true, then Mrs. Andreu committed perjury. Must be a better wife than mine! How many wives out there would lie under oath and make a statement when said statement could be 'denied' by another 8-9 people in the same room? Sounds farfetched....

Just as farfetched as Lance's statement that WADA, L'Equippe and many others are 'conspiring' against him.

Next up, I've heard Lance is coming down to Miami to help O.J Simpson look for his wife's killer out on the Boca golf courses. :rolleyes:


QUOTE=gpdavis2]Legendrider - Thank you.....that is pretty much it in a nut shell. And, if Frankie's wife is the 'normal' wife, regardless of how Frankie felt about whatever took place, she took it as a hit against her husband and wasn't happy. Perhaps enough to testify however she did testify. And, if marital bliss means anything to Frankie, he will do his best to back her on the issue. None of this is unusual. Simply the way most of us of this species happen to work. We do our best (which often isn't that great) to protect our own. My opinion is that the Andreus got in over their heads. You don't want to f*** with LA. He has too much money and too many powerful friends. And, he has built a near cult following. And, in many instances, for all his good work, does not appear to be a very nice person. None of which takes away from the fact that he is the best TdF rider and one of the best bicycle riders of all time. And, I don't think he needs peds. He is a driven man. 'Nuff said.[/QUOTE]

[cdimattio]

There is no doubt that Lance is an athlete of historic proportions. He is to be admired for his significant charitable pursuits. Like him or not, he is a cancer survivor who changed the way the world looks at the disease and he continues to give inspiration to millions.

He is retired. Nothing positive can come from the continued allegations.

Disparaging a great cyclist like Greg Lemond is also troubling. He broke the boundaries provided inspiration to raise American cycling to a new level. He another person devoting energies to charitable pursuits.

As to the allegations themselves, I am confident that there will never be proof to any legal standard that Lance used performance enhancing drugs.

Unfortunately professional cycling has been at the forefront of performance enhancing drugs since the days of Tom Simpson. Recent scandals and revelations are well documented. The allegations with Lance have appeared from a variety of different sources over the years and did not start with Pound or Andreau. It may not end as L’equipe is motivated to dig up more.

I personally don’t believe in conspiracy theories and do not require proof to a legal standard. By legal standards OJ was innocent.

For the elite in cycling, I believe it is a level playing field. Why the fuss? I think the world is a better place when people are allowed to believe in yellow halos.

Does the search for “Truth” justify muting the inspiration and support he provides to millions of cancer patients?

[toaster]

This is so simple.

If you're an employee of a corporation with a career to protect or a doctor who doesn't want to violate confidentiality and face a team of angry lawyers then you say what Lance wants you to say.

If you happen to be a ex-racer who was there and knows the truth yet have been put on LA's sh*t list then you can say exactly what you heard.

Money makes people lie. Lemond and Andreau feel like they can speak freely since Lance could care less about them. Only those with business relationships with money at stake are going to take the company line.

[Fat Robert]

dudes

its murky

mur-kay

le mur du kay

the murkberg

murkimus maximus

the only dudes who know what the feyuck is going on here are lance and frankie, they have their stories, and they're sticking to them.

time for us to ride our bikes and wait for the next set of fireworks

[93legendti]

This is so simple.

If you're an employee of a corporation with a career to protect or a doctor who doesn't want to violate confidentiality and face a team of angry lawyers then you say what Lance wants you to say.

If you happen to be a ex-racer who was there and knows the truth yet have been put on LA's sh*t list then you can say exactly what you heard.

Money makes people lie. Lemond and Andreau feel like they can speak freely since Lance could care less about them. Only those with business relationships with money at stake are going to take the company line.

Lance would have signed a waiver, so his doctor could testify and/or provide a sworn affidavit. AND, if the Dr. did not want to corrobaorate LA's "story", how could LA make him?


"...And in a sworn affidavit, Dr. Craig Nichols - one of the doctors treating Armstrong at Indiana University Medical Center - said he and other medical personnel visited with Armstrong that day about his medical history before he started chemotherapy, and no such admission was ever made in his presence... "
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10088.0.html

I wonder if Frankie A is willing to talk about if he used any banned profucts...

[Kevan]

who is tired of this topic?

[Kevan]

I thought so. Maybe we should move on.

[Fat Robert]

I second for move on

let us discuss something really important...like whether a carbon seatpost is more comfortable than an AL one...

[Elefantino]

I was tired at post #50...

[dave thompson]

I was tired at post #50...
Hell, I was tired at post #1!