Velonews Article: Drivetrain wars

[malbecman]

Pretty interesting read on the history of drivetrains...I suspect a lot of it is already known to most forum members but I still learned a thing or two.

http://velonews.competitor.com/the-drivetrain-wars

[cdn_bacon]

I learned something as well. thanks for sharing that!

[bikingshearer]

A fun and informative read. Thanks for sharing it.

Anyone who is interested in this sort of stuff should get their hands on "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto. It covers this ground up to the mid-2000s or so in more detail and with about a bazillion illustrations, including a lot of Daniel Rebour line drawings. It's very well done and a lot of fun to go through.

[MikeD]

I'm hoping that someday they replace the crude derailleur and chain system with something better. Something better means as high in efficiency and as low in weight at a reasonable cost.

[pavel]

The most complete compilation of the rear derailleurs history:

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Home.html

[sitzmark]

Since Suntour released the Browning electronic group in 1990. ... How is it that Mavic created electronic shifting in 1992?? The investment in Browning was the "straw" - a bet of all the company's access to cash/credit that didn't return.

Suntour Superbe and MTB Pro was really good stuff. I always preferred it to Shimano.

[ultraman6970]

Suntour made excellent stuff, remember the superbe FD and RD, all fixed with screws, no pins. We bent more than one back from the dead just because of the screws. Remove the plates, hammer them a little bit, put back together and good to go. I liked suntour more than shimano aswell, liked better than campagnolo back in the day.

The friction shifters were awesome.

[Curve_in]

I have fond memories of using full Suntour groups on my mountain bikes. It took some practice for it to shift smoothly, but those tiny thumb shifters were a thing of beauty.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[Mark McM]

A fun and informative read. Thanks for sharing it.

Anyone who is interested in this sort of stuff should get their hands on "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto. It covers this ground up to the mid-2000s or so in more detail and with about a bazillion illustrations, including a lot of Daniel Rebour line drawings. It's very well done and a lot of fun to go through.

Another great thing about the book "The Dancing Chain" is that it includes an appendix explaining how derailleur shifting works. Proper shifting is more than simply moving the derailleur laterally between sprockets - Berto also explains the function of chain gap, the interplay between sprocket tooth profile and chain plate shapes, early shifting vs. late shifting, and 'lost motion' mechanisms built into shifters.

[tv_vt]

I was also a Suntour Superbe fan back in the day. Beautiful stuff.

Until STI put the nail in their coffin.

[MikeD]

Suntour was pretty good until index shifting came out. I bought my first mountain bike in late 1989 that had Suntour components because I didn't know any better. Shimano stuff was so much better with Hyperglide cogs and freehubs instead of freewheels. Never tried Suntour's microdrive stuff just before they went out of business. Maybe it was on par with Shimano at that point.

[Ronsonic]

For all who are interested in this sorta thing, the perfect thing of this sort is the book, The Dancing Chain. (http://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Chain-History-Development-Derailleur/dp/1892495694) Great book. Check your local library or order one. You'll love it.

[GregL]

Suntour was pretty good until index shifting came out. I bought my first mountain bike in late 1989 that had Suntour components because I didn't know any better. Shimano stuff was so much better with Hyperglide cogs and freehubs instead of freewheels. Never tried Suntour's microdrive stuff just before they went out of business. Maybe it was on par with Shimano at that point.
Sadly, even Suntour's last efforts (8-speed Microdrive) just didn't work as well as Shimano. In 1993, I test rode two MTBs back-to-back that only differed in their drivetrains. The Shimano Hyperglide shifting absolutely crushed Microdrive. I wanted to like the Suntour group better, especially for its greater gear range. But the Shimano shifting was clearly much better.

- Greg

[velomonkey]

The article starts off with a history going back to 1928.

Barely only a word mentioned on Campy and Shimano. 2 of the first 5 main points in the history are all about SRAM. Red gets it's own paragraph as does doubletap and Rival, Force.

Over two thirds of the section on electronic are about it's failures, but the mentions of Campy and Shimano getting it right the first time out get the minority of the section.

There is a whole section on wireless that is only about SRAM. No pics of Shimano and Campy derailleurs.

This thing smells like a hack job.

[oldpotatoe]

The article starts off with a history going back to 1928.

Barely only a word mentioned on Campy and Shimano. 2 of the first 5 main points in the history are all about SRAM. Red gets it's own paragraph as does doubletap and Rival, Force.

This thing smells like a hack job.

Indeed.:eek::cool::o

[bikinchris]

I'm hoping that someday they replace the crude derailleur and chain system with something better. Something better means as high in efficiency and as low in weight at a reasonable cost.

Good luck with that.

[bikinchris]

Suntour was pretty good until index shifting came out. I bought my first mountain bike in late 1989 that had Suntour components because I didn't know any better. Shimano stuff was so much better with Hyperglide cogs and freehubs instead of freewheels. Never tried Suntour's microdrive stuff just before they went out of business. Maybe it was on par with Shimano at that point.

Shimano did not invent a single thing in bicycling. Nothing. NADA. What Shimano did was take other makers ideas and make it work better. That in itself is not a bad thing for the riders. It just means that you should not credit Shimano with a novel idea. Slant parallelogram? Suntour made it. Index shifting? Suntour idea. Altenburger invented the dual pivot sidepull brake. Integrated brake/shifter systems had been shown at Interbike many years before Shimano did STI.

[Black Dog]

Shimano did not invent a single thing in bicycling. Nothing. NADA. What Shimano did was take other makers ideas and make it work better. That in itself is not a bad thing for the riders. It just means that you should not credit Shimano with a novel idea. Slant parallelogram? Suntour made it. Index shifting? Suntour idea. Altenburger invented the dual pivot sidepull brake. Integrated brake/shifter systems had been shown at Interbike many years before Shimano did STI.

I agree and that is true as well for campy to a degree. I say this as a campy enthusiast. Most of the true innovations come from small companies or individuals and flounder until a big fish with resources takes the idea and makes it work or markets it hard enough until it sells.

[pdmtong]

I agree and that is true as well for campy to a degree. I say this as a campy enthusiast. Most of the true innovations come from small companies or individuals and flounder until a big fish with resources takes the idea and makes it work or markets it hard enough until it sells.

Apple did not invent the mouse. Xerox invented the mouse.

Apple perfected it.

Windows 3.1 anyone?

[livingminimal]

Windows 3.1 anyone?

95 bruh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAkuJXGldrM

[pdmtong]

95 bruh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAkuJXGldrM

ooooh. that's a good one but warning people: some things cannot be unseen

[ultraman6970]

3.1???? windows 2.0 then windows 3...

But before than that we had quarteckneck or something like that? multitasking running over DOS... copy stuff between programs, never knew why did not pick up as winblows did.

Apple did not invent the mouse. Xerox invented the mouse.

Apple perfected it.

Windows 3.1 anyone?

[alancw3]

Apple did not invent the mouse. Xerox invented the mouse.

Apple perfected it.

Windows 3.1 anyone?

watch the movie "pirates of silicon valley" interesting take on xerox executives making strategic error in the direction of the company.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm hoping that someday they replace the crude derailleur and chain system with something better. Something better means as high in efficiency and as low in weight at a reasonable cost.

High in efficiency..the der-chain system is very efficient
Weights of bikes can easily hover around 7kg, easy
Altho the above isn't reasonable cost, add a bit of weight, and a reasonable cost bike can be around 8-9kg, again, easy.

Not much is going to have the versatility, cost, weight and efficiency of der-chain. Certainly not anything internal and belt. Same with the double triangle bike frame/fork design.

[marciero]

I agree and that is true as well for campy to a degree. I say this as a campy enthusiast. Most of the true innovations come from small companies or individuals and flounder until a big fish with resources takes the idea and makes it work or markets it hard enough until it sells.

Indeed. Quick release. Graphical user interface. Mouse (as was mentioned)...

[marciero]

...
Not much is going to have the versatility, cost, weight and efficiency of der-chain. Certainly not anything internal and belt. Same with the double triangle bike frame/fork design.

Even regardless of cost, this 100-year old chain-deraileur design is pretty close to perfect in terms of performance. Ditto the 32-spoke three-cross wheel. No significant design improvements in either. (STI, etc./are about actuation of the same design)
Sheldon Brown has a humorous article about "improvements" on the 32-spoke design.

Now throw in the frame/fork design...The bicycle is a beautiful thing.

[MikeD]

Even regardless of cost, this 100-year old chain-deraileur design is pretty close to perfect in terms of performance. Ditto the 32-spoke three-cross wheel. No significant design improvements in either. (STI, etc./are about actuation of the same design)

Sheldon Brown has a humorous article about "improvements" on the 32-spoke design.



Now throw in the frame/fork design...The bicycle is a beautiful thing.


When you consider pulling the chain off and onto a cog or chainring, it's pretty crude. I'm thinking variable transmission sealed against the elements. Running the chain at an angle and using small cogs also hurts efficiency.

[marciero]

When you consider pulling the chain off and onto a cog or chainring, it's pretty crude. I'm thinking variable transmission sealed against the elements. Running the chain at an angle and using small cogs also hurts efficiency.

For me that's part of the beauty of it. Totally simple. Also, loss of effiency from chain angle is far less than previously thought.

[fuzzalow]

When you consider pulling the chain off a cog or chainring, it's pretty crude. I'm thinking variable transmission sealed against the elements.

All in the eye and engineering of the beholder.

I see it as elegant simplicity. Even down to the bifurcated use, or none use, of chain tension forces in movement of the chain from one cog or chainring to another:

the feeding of an untensioned chain from one cog to another on the rear cassette before the chain-cog combination enters the loaded tension phase of its delivery cycle in the power stroke
the alternate use of chain tension on the up shift side of the chainring, which requires tension to wedge the chain against the chainring to make the chain climb up to the bigger ring. Versus free fall dropping of the chain on the downshift side with chain takeup and tension managed by the rear derailleur.
That entire gear system has everything needed and nuthin' it don't to do the task of variable gearing. Nuthin' crude about that.

[Black Dog]

When you consider pulling the chain off and onto a cog or chainring, it's pretty crude. I'm thinking variable transmission sealed against the elements. Running the chain at an angle and using small cogs also hurts efficiency.

Any internally geared system will always be less efficient than the current set up. The energy lost in the current system is remarkably low relative to the forces that it operates under.

[cmg]

variable transmission, yea we definitely need something more complicated, involving some sensors and a computer while being lighter, efficient , self maintaining, at a low cost. yea, sounds like a workable solution... funny stuff.

[MikeD]

Electric drivetrain. Cranks power a motor/generator system. Small battery captures braking energy that would otherwise be wasted, like a hybrid car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bicycletricycle]

ooooh. that's a good one but warning people: some things cannot be unseen


Craziest video ever, how the hell did that happen?

[sg8357]

Fun fact, Osgear Super Champion derailleurs, from 1937
as shown in Velonews pic. The d/t mounted shift lever is indexed, ok only 3 gears
and has a second control that de tensions the lower run of the chain.

Osgears were used into the 1950s by cheapskate Brits, you can upgrade
an Osgear to 4 or 5 speeds by drilling extra index holes in the shift quadrant
control aka d/t shifter.

[bicycletricycle]

I wonder if you could rig up that rotor hydraulic stuff to be non indexed.

[thirdgenbird]

I wonder if you could rig up that rotor hydraulic stuff to be non indexed.

It doesn't appear so. Similar to a traditional cable system, the uno group uses an index gear and paw system to hold the derailleur in place. The lever pushes it to the next position on the index gear or releases it to let the spring pull the derailleur the other way. A micro ratchet would allow friction like function up the cassettes but I'm not sure how you would control the release in a nonindexed manner.

Here is a video showing the inner workings.
http://youtu.be/Zrzaz-bcYgg



If I recall, the hydralic acros mtb group used dual hydralic lines. A system like thus might be more conducive to a friction setup. It appears to be using a dual acting cylinder so you are using hydraulic force to push the chain both ways. A clutch system could be used to hold the position. Theoretically, a hydraulic valve setup could be used to hold the position, but it would be added complexity and failure points.

Given everything above, the rotor system is quite simple. Much like Campag ergo levers, a simple index gear swap could make it compatible with about any spacing if that is the desire.

[fuzzalow]

ooooh. that's a good one but warning people: some things cannot be unseen

Spectacularly inept on a social level. And yet that core group had the greatest of good fortune to see the application and evolution of the computer as a super, duper programmable calculator that made them kings of the first epoch in personal computing. And yet that step was the minor step which was nothing more than a minor impact to culture and society, albeit a big impact to business working efficiency. Spreadsheet, word processor - those were the killer apps. And those 1st Gen killer apps in the bigger picture of technology's impact to society, meant relatively nothing. The world then was decades away from social media, pervasive and addictive connective dependencies and the false hope of a technology enabled Arab Spring.

Any crew as awkward and seemingly deaf and clumsy to social graces and possibly ignorant to culture and beauty as this early MSFT senior brain trust would not possibly see the connection and bonds of technology to society and culture. Networking/Connectivity, web browser, e-mail. These guys were focused yet isolated nerds. It is no wonder that they missed the boat on all that was to come at the dawn of the Internet age.

In fairness, how could they know what was to come? MSFT I always considered the singularly most uninventive, unimaginative and least creative of any large technology company to permeate society as deeply as they have. Bill Gates often uses the word "cool" in describing things but IMO he wouldn't know cool if it bite him on the leg. No hate as I have been long MSFT for decades.

I didn't intend a history lesson on something I don't know factually as an historian. I would just view that video and think I understand just how blind they were. It is not surprising that they'd only see how a device that an office worker would be tethered to in the business world would only be used to more efficiently perform drudgery. That such a worker would never seek to humanize their environment with this device by using it to connect in some way to other device-tethered humans. Cubical slave and ever shall be.

Then I saw that video and I think I could understand why.

[pdmtong]

Spectacularly inept on a social level. And yet that core group had the greatest of good fortune to see the application and evolution of the computer as a super, duper programmable calculator that made them kings of the first epoch in personal computing. And yet that step was the minor step which was nothing more than a minor impact to culture and society, albeit a big impact to business working efficiency. Spreadsheet, word processor - those were the killer apps. And those 1st Gen killer apps in the bigger picture of technology's impact to society, meant relatively nothing. The world then was decades away from social media, pervasive and addictive connective dependencies and the false hope of a technology enabled Arab Spring.

Any crew as awkward and seemingly deaf and clumsy to social graces and possibly ignorant to culture and beauty as this early MSFT senior brain trust would not possibly see the connection and bonds of technology to society and culture. Networking/Connectivity, web browser, e-mail. These guys were focused yet isolated nerds. It is no wonder that they missed the boat on all that was to come at the dawn of the Internet age.

In fairness, how could they know what was to come? MSFT I always considered the singularly most uninventive, unimaginative and least creative of any large technology company to permeate society as deeply as they have. Bill Gates often uses the word "cool" in describing things but IMO he wouldn't know cool if it bite him on the leg. No hate as I have been long MSFT for decades.

I didn't intend a history lesson on something I don't know factually as an historian. I would just view that video and think I understand just how blind they were. It is not surprising that they'd only see how a device that an office worker would be tethered to in the business world would only be used to more efficiently perform drudgery. That such a worker would never seek to humanize their environment with this device by using it to connect in some way to other device-tethered humans. Cubical slave and ever shall be.

Then I saw that video and I think I could understand why.

of course hindsight is 20/20. who would have known that the valley arc would be memory chips to processor chips to micro computing to networking/plumbing to THE INTERNET to SAAS to social media.

Bill/Paul/Steve had their chances.

Now here we are at a time where everything prior (above) to social media is assumed, much the same way when you flip the switch you expect light or when you. open the faucet you expect water.

[oldpotatoe]

Electric drivetrain. Cranks power a motor/generator system. Small battery captures braking energy that would otherwise be wasted, like a hybrid car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ahhh, heavier, less efficient, more expensive...bing, bing, bing we have a winner!!I ain't an engineer but I doubt a person could generate enough power to actually power an electric motor to make the thing move at even pedestrian speeds. Why not the cranks 'power' the rear wheel..remove all the heavy, expensive electric stuff?

I'm out, enough piling on.

[ultraman6970]

You can charge a phone using a solar charger, solar panels can be made flexible in the top tube for example, thin material, super light, efficient for electronic drive train?? who knows. If anybody comes up with the idea please give me credit :P

The rotor system uses a gear thingy in the RD?? Well thats good news because can be fixed to shift anything, just a new index part with campagnolo 10 or 11 indexing for example.

[MikeD]

Ahhh, heavier, less efficient, more expensive...bing, bing, bing we have a winner!!I ain't an engineer but I doubt a person could generate enough power to actually power an electric motor to make the thing move at even pedestrian speeds. Why not the cranks 'power' the rear wheel..remove all the heavy, expensive electric stuff?



I'm out, enough piling on.


I have no idea if this is feasible. Just thinking out of the box. It is doable, but weight and mechanical efficiency, maybe not. Cost? Ha ha. People are paying $7K for new bikes.

[Mark McM]

When you consider pulling the chain off and onto a cog or chainring, it's pretty crude. I'm thinking variable transmission sealed against the elements. Running the chain at an angle and using small cogs also hurts efficiency.

The beauty of the derailleur gear changer is that it allows one to continue to use a roller chain for power transmission (the most efficient power transmission yet found for the human engine) over a variety of different gear ratios, with little loss of efficiency across the range.

Many different power transmission means have been tried for bicycles, including treadle rods,, shaft drive, belt drive, and a row of gears from cranks to hub, but none has been as efficient as a roller chain. In addition, the chain drive has the advantage of higher strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios compared to the other designed tried.

Most multiple gear transmissions have much higher power loss than a derailleur gear, as there are losses each time there is meshing of drive components. A typical automotive transmission might have a 10% energy loss, whereas a bicycle chain drive can has as little as 2% loss.


If you want a continuously variable transmission, you could try the Nuvinci hub:

http://www.nuvincicycling.com/en/products/overview.html

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuVinci_Continuously_Variable_Transmission#Compari son_to_conventional_transmissions), the Nuvinci hub is only 85% efficient. Plus the hub alone weighs about 5 1/2 lb, which is about 3 lb more than the components it replaces.

The human engine is very different from other engines used for vehicles. In addition to having a worse power/weight ratio than most other engines/motors, the human produces a relatively high torque and relatively low speed compared to other engines/motors. This is why high strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios are desired.

[Mark McM]

Electric drivetrain. Cranks power a motor/generator system. Small battery captures braking energy that would otherwise be wasted, like a hybrid car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even hybrid cars don't work this way. When the gasoline engine runs, it drives the wheels directly. It would be too inefficient to try to run a generator with the gasoline engine, and then drive an electric motor.

[josephr]

am I the only who learned that Miele was producing bikes in 1970???

[MikeD]

Even hybrid cars don't work this way. When the gasoline engine runs, it drives the wheels directly. It would be too inefficient to try to run a generator with the gasoline engine, and then drive an electric motor.


That's not actually true. According to this http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht the Volt's engine, under most conditions, is used to drive the generator to generate electricity.

Diesel locomotives and more and more ships these days operate that way.

[bicycletricycle]

Even hybrid cars don't work this way. When the gasoline engine runs, it drives the wheels directly. It would be too inefficient to try to run a generator with the gasoline engine, and then drive an electric motor.

I think the bmw I3 works this way, basically the internal combustion is just a generator.

Everything goes through the electric motor, that way they could save on redundant hardware.

[Mark McM]

That's not actually true. According to this http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht the Volt's engine, under most conditions, is used to drive the generator to generate electricity.

That's an old article, published when Chevy was under attack for not actually producing a true electric car.

The Chevy Volt attempts to be a cross between a true electric car, and a hybrid. In range-extended mode, the gasoline engine may or may not drive the wheels directly, depending on driving conditions. In particular, as electric motors do not produce as much torque at high speeds, the gasoline engine would almost exclusively drive the wheels on the highway.

But the 2nd generation Volt actually moves closer to the being a true plug-in hybrid:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes

It still operates exclusively in all-electric mode up to its range of 50 miles or so (except in very cold weather) before the engine switches on.

But once the battery is down to its "depleted" level, the engine switches on--and it contributes torque to drive the wheels far more often now than it did in the first Volt, when it would clutch into the drivetrain only in a limited set of high-speed driving circumstances.

But it's the three extended-range modes (meaning the engine is on) used after the Volt's first 50 or so miles where the largest changes occur.

Even after the battery is depleted, the Volt will move away from rest under electric power alone up to a speed of 10 to 15 mph.

Then the engine will start--or earlier if maximum acceleration is demanded--and the first of the modes will be employed


Diesel locomotives and more and more ships these days operate that way.

Diesel electric locomotives and ships don't use electric motor drive for efficiency reasons. Diesel electric locomotives use electric motors because it is much easier to vary power and direction than a direct diesel drive would be. For ships, electric motor drive is used for isolating vibration and noise from the ships hull (very important for passenger cruise ships), and to make maneuvering easier in port. Freight ships don't use these electric drives, they use more efficient direct drive.

[Mark McM]

I think the bmw I3 works this way, basically the internal combustion is just a generator.

Everything goes through the electric motor, that way they could save on redundant hardware.

The BMS I3 is a true electric car (operates completely off of batteries and motors), and the gasoline engine is only included in an optional range extender package. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Range_extender_option):

BMW is offering a petrol/gasoline range extender engine as an option.[38] The range extender is powered by the same 647 cc two-cylinder engine used in the BMW C650 GT maxi-scooter. The range extender engine operates only when the battery level drops to a pre-specified point, acting purely as a generator to produce electricity to extend the range to about 320 km (200 mi) for the European version.[56] The European version has a 9 L (2.0 imp gal; 2.4 US gal) fuel tank while the American version has a smaller 7.2 L (1.6 imp gal; 1.9 US gal) fuel tank.[3] Under EPA five-cycle testing, the i3 REx has a total range of 240 km (150 mi).[9]

The electric motor is located between the rear wheels. The empty space at the right of the motor is reserved to accommodate the range-extending gasoline engine.
The i3 performance in range-extending mode may be more limited than when it is running on battery power, as BMW clarified the range extender is designed not for long-distance travel but purely as an emergency backup to keep the electric system going until the next recharging location

[MikeD]

That's an old article, published when Chevy was under attack for not actually producing a true electric car.



The Chevy Volt attempts to be a cross between a true electric car, and a hybrid. In range-extended mode, the gasoline engine may or may not drive the wheels directly, depending on driving conditions. In particular, as electric motors do not produce as much torque at high speeds, the gasoline engine would almost exclusively drive the wheels on the highway.



But the 2nd generation Volt actually moves closer to the being a true plug-in hybrid:



http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes













Diesel electric locomotives and ships don't use electric motor drive for efficiency reasons. Diesel electric locomotives use electric motors because it is much easier to vary power and direction than a direct diesel drive would be. For ships, electric motor drive is used for isolating vibration and noise from the ships hull (very important for passenger cruise ships), and to make maneuvering easier in port. Freight ships don't use these electric drives, they use more efficient direct drive.


I think you're struggling to make your point. The Volt most certainly operates in a mode where the engine is used only to charge the battery. On the other subject, you may be correct but you have not proven the point with any references. If there were any appreciable efficiency differences with how trains and ships are powered, they most certainly wouldn't be electric powered, as fuel costs are tremendous in these applications.

[choke]

Even hybrid cars don't work this way. When the gasoline engine runs, it drives the wheels directly. It would be too inefficient to try to run a generator with the gasoline engine, and then drive an electric motor.Running a generator with a gas motor is exactly what the first hybrid did.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/08/15/cars-of-futures-past-1901-lohner-porsche-semper-vivus-and-mixte/

[MikeD]

This explains the different types of plug in hybrids https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

[soulspinner]

I hope Nibali wins The Giro with mechanical Super Record. Just sayin :cool:

[soulspinner]

I was also a Suntour Superbe fan back in the day. Beautiful stuff.

Until STI put the nail in their coffin.

My Superbe Pro stuff was extremely durable and a good value in its day. Maybe I loved it cause I was so much faster then...:bike:

[oldpotatoe]

I have no idea if this is feasible. Just thinking out of the box. It is doable, but weight and mechanical efficiency, maybe not. Cost? Ha ha. People are paying $7K for new bikes.

ha ha, your original post asked about 'reasonable cost'. A Hybrid car is how much more expensive than a 'standard' gas car? W/O government rebates and other bribes, none would be sold.

[MikeD]

ha ha, your original post asked about 'reasonable cost'. A Hybrid car is how much more expensive than a 'standard' gas car? W/O government rebates and other bribes, none would be sold.


Hybrid or plug-in? My Prius didn't cost much more than a non hybrid and I get 50 mpg average. Best car I've ever owned and I would definitely buy another. Only plug-ins and full electrics have government tax credits.

[Mark McM]

I think you're struggling to make your point. The Volt most certainly operates in a mode where the engine is used only to charge the battery. On the other subject, you may be correct but you have not proven the point with any references. If there were any appreciable efficiency differences with how trains and ships are powered, they most certainly wouldn't be electric powered, as fuel costs are tremendous in these applications.

The Volt, like some other plug-in hybrids, work in multiple different modes. Electric motors are good at high efficiency at low speeds, but ICE (internal combustions engines) can be better at high speeds. That's why both the 1st and 2nd generation Volts drive the wheels directly (either with or without help from the electric motor) at high speeds. The 2nd generation Volt actually couples the ICE to the drive axles at a lower speed than the 1st generation model, and in some modes disconnects the generator and motor completely - if a series electric drive (ICE powers generator which powers motor) was better, why would 2nd generation Volt use series electric drive less? Perhaps because the Volt did not deliver exceptional fuel efficiency once the batteries were depleted (significantly less than other hybrids).

As for marine diesel electric drive, here's a good article about its efficiency:

http://www.trybrid.org/trimaran/about-2/how-does-diesel-electric-save-fuel/

Long story short, diesel electric drive can be more efficient in some cases, but in many cases it is not. For example, for continuous constant speed operations (long haul cargo ships) it is not more efficient.

[Mark McM]

This explains the different types of plug in hybrids https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

Unfortunately, this article incorrectly labels the Chevy Volt as a Series Hybrid. Both the 1st and 2nd generation Volts are Series-Parallel Hybrids. This caused a lot of consternation when the Volt was first introduced, because Chevrolet had promised that it would be an electric car, but instead they produced a plug-in hybrid.