Why are White Ind T11's so expensive/special....

[loimpact]

So I'm actually considering some new wheels and I *think* the most important thing for me to do in upgrading is to get a nice 24/28 spoke setup. (I'm 6'2" and 190lbs)

I think that will speak for more in efficient money spent vs alu vs carbon vs which spoke, which hubs, etc.

However......I'm intrigued as to why Novatec, et al.....make supposedly good hubs, yet folks like White Ind., Chris King, etc.....make such expensive versions?

Ceramic bearings aside.......what's the big difference? :cool:

[bicycletricycle]

Well, country of manufacture is a big driver of cost.

Chinese/Taiwan hubs are probably a better short term value, some Asian sourced hubs last a long time.

WI and CK make their hubs in the USA, which drives the cost up some, they also use high/higher grade materials and in the case of Chris king, proprietary bearings.

In the end I think on average you get a more reliable product from the US suppliers . You are also more likely to be able to service the US made hubs in the future.

Also, ceramic bearings reduce rolling resistance a very small amount, an almost meaningless amount. Save on the ceramics, go for something more useful, better rims or something.

If you are looking for the best value I would imagine some prebuilt wheels of some kind would do the trick, doesn't sound like your looking for anything out of the ordinary.

[kramnnim]

White Industries freehub bodies are machined out of a hunk of titanium, greatly reducing the notching so often seen on aluminum splines...

Cheapo hubs are made in Asia, the good ones are made in the US/Europe. Fit and finish is better.

[cv1966]

Don't know all the tech reasons why, but my experience is that WI hubs are durable, reliable and look good after 10 yrs. Worth the extra $ IMHO.

[false_Aest]

Lemme edit this:

WI + CK are machined ridiculously well. They last and last and last. They're rebuildable. They're consistent. They're REALLY consistent. LIKE REALLY.

So are Shimano hubs.

Novatec are not. Their tolerances aren't that great -- pop in bearings with your pinky for one set, then require a 50 metric ****tonne press to deform the hub the next time around.

There's some really, really good Taiwanese hubs out there. There are not so awesome of Chinese hubs out there.

Cool thing: Bitex makes some dope ass hubs that are 90% of my Dura Ace hubs at 66.67% of the cost. Literally built a set of Nemesis/Bitex wheels today. They're dope and dependable. But. . . they're asian. IF that's a problem well, its a problem

[joosttx]

I have a wheel built white industries front hub in 1992. I have never done any maintance on the hub.

[Caballero]

You can apply the same logic for anything.

Ex.
Seiko makes good watches, why buy Patek Philippe
Toyota make great cars, why buy a Porsche.

[kramnnim]

If you ever do have questions or need parts for your King/WI hubs, a quick call will get you sorted out.

[loimpact]

Lemme edit this:

WI + CK are machined ridiculously well. They last and last and last. They're rebuildable. They're consistent. They're REALLY consistent. LIKE REALLY.

So are Shimano hubs.

Novatec are not. Their tolerances aren't that great -- pop in bearings with your pinky for one set, then require a 50 metric ****tonne press to deform the hub the next time around.

There's some really, really good Taiwanese hubs out there. There are not so awesome of Chinese hubs out there.

Cool thing: Bitex makes some dope ass hubs that are 90% of my Dura Ace hubs at 66.67% of the cost. Literally built a set of Nemesis/Bitex wheels today. They're dope and dependable. But. . . they're asian. IF that's a problem well, its a problem

LOL!! That definitely makes a differenceto me.

Looks like the combination of all of the above, with perhaps an emphasis on the "premium" of the branding, is the reason for the pricing.


Anybody know anything about the "Williams Sixty-Six" hubs?? (I like the idea of what Williams is trying to do but not sure how they're sourcing their hubs)

[geordanh]

In my experience, the freehub pawl mechanisms on a lot of these novatec, bikehubstore, bitex, circus monkey etc hubs do not last very long. In some cases, no issues, but have also had enough notable issues that I'm inclined to only go king or WI for my future low spoke count wheels until shimano and campy never decide to release low spoke count hubs that I can lace into belgiums.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[verbs4us]

One point not mentioned yet here: CK rear freehubs have a characteristic "nest of bees" sound. You can hear em coming round the bed. My T11s are almost silent out of the box. I hear (no pun intended) if you use a heaver oil on them, they get still quieter. I recently leaped forward about 40 years, going from classic Campy NR hubs to T11 and have to say, the T11s are the smoothest hubs I have ridden, including a set of wheels with Phil Wood hubs. Those are smooth but with more rolling resistance than the Whites. As others have said, I find WI service ethic to be top notch. Every email answered in an informative way within 24 hours. Those guys have their game on.

[oldpotatoe]

So I'm actually considering some new wheels and I *think* the most important thing for me to do in upgrading is to get a nice 24/28 spoke setup. (I'm 6'2" and 190lbs)

I think that will speak for more in efficient money spent vs alu vs carbon vs which spoke, which hubs, etc.

However......I'm intrigued as to why Novatec, et al.....make supposedly good hubs, yet folks like White Ind., Chris King, etc.....make such expensive versions?

Ceramic bearings aside.......what's the big difference? :cool:

Regardless of hubs, good answers above but I'd recommend at least 28/32 for you. 4 spokes weigh an ounce but a 32h rear will be more reliable, all else being equal, unless you opt for a fairly beefy rim. Yes, I know, some have found success with a 24/28, 20/24, etc and are not light riders but I don't understand building a wheel maybe 'just strong enough', or maybe not, for a 190 pound rider. IMHO, of course.

[chiasticon]

is it weird that I read the thread title and thought "they are?" I guess that, for me, something around the cost of WI or DT is the base of what I'm willing to pay for a wheel build. and CK is splurging. my outlook is that if you're going after custom wheels, you want them to last and you want to be able to rebuild them. the hubs are a central (lol) part of that. if they're crap, the whole idea of keeping the wheels forever and rebuilding parts as needed goes out the window.

[berserk87]

White Industries freehub bodies are machined out of a hunk of titanium, greatly reducing the notching so often seen on aluminum splines...

Cheapo hubs are made in Asia, the good ones are made in the US/Europe. Fit and finish is better.

Aren't Shimano hubs made in Asia? I would not call their groupo-based hubs cheap-o.

[oldpotatoe]

White Industries freehub bodies are machined out of a hunk of titanium, greatly reducing the notching so often seen on aluminum splines...

Cheapo hubs are made in Asia, the good ones are made in the US/Europe. Fit and finish is better.

And some really good ones too, like shimano hubs. Hubs on non proprietary wheels will outlast the rims by a lot. I'd say, like buying a bike, and put your $ in the frame and fork first, put the $ in the hubs first. DT, WI, shimano, Campagnolo, Miche(not expensive)...others.

[Mikej]

Chris King hubs are machined with incredibly tight tolerances. King manufactures thier own bearings in house. An example of my customer service experience with King - I had a rear hub and the needle bearing in the cassette drive went bad after 6 years. I called them up and they asked me for the serial number printed on the hub and a dimension printed on the axle. They mic every bearing, hub shell and axle for the optimal tolerance. And they keep track of the dimensions in a data base. Oh they didn't charge me and they sent the updated ring drive mech as well. A-1 class act company IMHO -

[kramnnim]

Aren't Shimano hubs made in Asia? I would not call their groupo-based hubs cheap-o.

All squirrels are rodents, but not all rodents are squirrels. The OP didn't mention Shimano; the generic Taiwan hubs all seem to be of similar quality...Novatech, Chosen, KT, etc...

[Neves]

Don't forget about DTswiss 350 hubs. Goods hubs at a great price. You give up some of the axle options on the mountain side. If you think you might be changing axles just go with the 240's and 350 rear.

[bikinchris]

Don't forget Phil Wood. They have lighter versions of their bullet proof hubs for the weight conscious riders.

philwood.com/products/hubspgs/11speed.php

[berserk87]

All squirrels are rodents, but not all rodents are squirrels. The OP didn't mention Shimano; the generic Taiwan hubs all seem to be of similar quality...Novatech, Chosen, KT, etc...

You made a blanket statement that said:

Cheapo hubs are made in Asia, the good ones are made in the US/Europe. Fit and finish is better.

I know what the OP said, but your statement implies that all good hubs are made in Europe and the US, and that all cheap-o hubs are made in Asia.

If you had just said "cheap-o hubs are made in Asia" without "the good ones are made in the US/Europe", your squirrel analogy would have made sense.

It's not the end of the world - I am being overly nit-picky. Just pointing out that there are some mighty fine Asian-made hubs out there.

[bfd]

Don't forget Phil Wood. They have lighter versions of their bullet proof hubs for the weight conscious riders.

philwood.com/products/hubspgs/11speed.php

The Phil Wood Pro rear hub has a weight limit of 190lb! Sigh....Good Luck!

[Mr. Squirrel]

https://r11.fodey.com/2417/7d2bebb2e88d402297186319d86c0c98.1.gif (https://www.fodey.com/generators/animated/talking_squirrel.asp)

and that is not nuts!

mr. squirrel

[Mr. Squirrel]

https://r11.fodey.com/2417/1d81f7f278b34ea49750b9beda2bb52e.1.gif (https://www.fodey.com/generators/animated/talking_squirrel.asp)

mr. squirrel

[Robbos]

I'm a big fant of DT 240 or 340. Very easy to service and find parts. Easy to adapt (spacing, thru axle, etc) They've been using the same design, and for good reason, for years. And they are very well sealed against the elements.
Just look how many wheel manufacturers use their hubs guts: Giant, Specialized/ Roval, Reynolds, Enve, Bontrager, Syncros, Powertap... that should tell you something.

[Robbos]

I'm a big fant of DT 240 or 340. Very easy to service and find parts. Easy to adapt (spacing, thru axle, etc) They've been using the same design, and for good reason, for years. And they are very well sealed against the elements.
Just look how many wheel manufacturers use their hubs guts: Giant, Specialized/ Roval, Reynolds, Enve, Bontrager, Syncros, Powertap... that should tell you something.

A review that sums up the DT's quite well:
"They are fairly quiet too, without the obnoxious buzz or hub from the others. Even the stickers are understated. Its basically the Swiss Army knife of bike hubs. They’re kind of boring, kind of…meh. But they are well built, they’re stupidly light, they’re unique, and they will be what the surviving cockroaches are riding after a nuclear holocaust. If you can appreciate them for their performance rather than the bling factor, then you will understand why the DT 240s are brilliant."

[fignon's barber]

Cheapo hubs are made in Asia, the good ones are made in the US/Europe. Fit and finish is better.

....but the worst hubs consistently for decades have been Zipp and American Classic. Made in the USA.

[fignon's barber]

OP, my philosophy is that, while your frameset supports your body, the wheels are what move you down the road. And the center of it all.. the hub. The very design of the hub dictates that the better the critical tolerances and the better the build consistency, the better the wheel rolls down that road.
I like the WI T11. I like Campagnolo. I also like PMP, custom machined by a small shop in Italy, their top hubs can be had for less than 250 euros (and that's for a pair!).

[kramnnim]

....but the worst hubs consistently for decades have been Zipp and American Classic. Made in the USA.

I see a lot of hate for AC hubs, for some reason mine were pretty good.

[berserk87]

....but the worst hubs consistently for decades have been Zipp and American Classic. Made in the USA.

I am not sure that the Zipp hubs you mention were made in the USA. Rims were. Back in the day the hubs were outsourced - to where, I cannot recall. But they were crappy.

[F150]

Mesmerized by the wisdom of Mr. Squirrel...

[bikinchris]

The Phil Wood Pro rear hub has a weight limit of 190lb! Sigh....Good Luck!

Yes, those are for the lightweight hubs. Since many if not most of the people worried about light weight are below 190lbs, I don't see a problem.

The heavy duty Phil hubs are pretty much no weight limit. I know people who have been riding tandem on Phil hubs since the 70's.

[saab2000]

All the White Industries hubs I have (four and a WI single-speed freewheel) are extremely nicely made and have really nice bearings. They are a pleasure to use and aren't noisy.

[thirdgenbird]

I also like PMP, custom machined by a small shop in Italy, their top hubs can be had for less than 250 euros (and that's for a pair!).

Reading things like this makes me want to do a proper Italian build.

Pmp hubs
Pmp post
Grammo stem

[cadence90]

I have a bunch of PMP stuff headed my way. They are a complete pleasure to deal with.

[bfd]

Yes, those are for the lightweight hubs. Since many if not most of the people worried about light weight are below 190lbs, I don't see a problem.

The heavy duty Phil hubs are pretty much no weight limit. I know people who have been riding tandem on Phil hubs since the 70's.

It is true that must people looking for a lightweight rear hub are probably under 190lb. But the PW Pro rear hub weighs between 310-330g w/o skewer. In contrast a Campy rear hub weighs 231g w/o skewer. Further, the PW Pro rear hub is $420, the Campy rear hub can be found for about 1/4 of that at $135 (UK retailers). Moreover, there's no weight limit for the Campy rear hub. Other than you can get the PW Pro in various drillings 20-32h and different colors. Campy only comes in 32h and black, what's not to like? Good Luck!

[loimpact]

Regardless of hubs, good answers above but I'd recommend at least 28/32 for you. 4 spokes weigh an ounce but a 32h rear will be more reliable, all else being equal, unless you opt for a fairly beefy rim. Yes, I know, some have found success with a 24/28, 20/24, etc and are not light riders but I don't understand building a wheel maybe 'just strong enough', or maybe not, for a 190 pound rider. IMHO, of course.

I definitely respect your opinion on the matter so those words don't fall on deaf ears!

My consideration would be twofold.

First.....I'm on my way down to 180 for the summer. (Or so is the plan) ;)

Second.....even minus the extra 10lbs.....the manufacturers all seem to recommend as such with certainly enough room for somebody my size...(most 24/28 combinations seem to go well over 200lbs for their limits)

Not apples for apples, but I'll also say I've been riding some 20/20 Aksiums for the last 2 years that I now switch between 2 frames that have been absolutely bomb proof! These wheels should probably be cracked in half by now, but with one trueing that I half-@$$ed about a year ago, they're still in good shape.

((shrug?))

[oldpotatoe]

I definitely respect your opinion on the matter so those words don't fall on deaf ears!

My consideration would be twofold.

First.....I'm on my way down to 180 for the summer. (Or so is the plan) ;)

Second.....even minus the extra 10lbs.....the manufacturers all seem to recommend as such with certainly enough room for somebody my size...(most 24/28 combinations seem to go well over 200lbs for their limits)

Not apples for apples, but I'll also say I've been riding some 20/20 Aksiums for the last 2 years that I now switch between 2 frames that have been absolutely bomb proof! These wheels should probably be cracked in half by now, but with one trueing that I half-@$$ed about a year ago, they're still in good shape.

((shrug?))

Your wheels, just IMHO. I know 150 pound guys that kill stuff(wheels) regularly and big boys(like me), who really don't. Limits are like chain wrap. On some it works, on some it doesn't. I admit I am conservative in my wheelbuilding philosophy.

10 pounds weigh 4540 grams, you and your bike weigh north of 93,000 grams, 12 spokes weigh about 90 grams(24/28 vs 32/32).

BUT designing and then building wheels reminds me of the french bridge builder..Builds fine bridges but S_____D one C____..so he isn't known as the "French Bridge Builder", but the French C___ S____R...

Build one set of wheel that are questionable..low spoke count, thin spokes, light-ish rim..and 3 strikes, you are out as is your reputation..

IMHO...and all that...

[cadence90]

I would absolutely trust oldpotatoe's experience and wisdom in this matter.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I agree that weight limit is just a guide. They've got to use some quantitative value.

Like Mr. Chisolm, I've seen a 150lb guy literally destroy 2 sets of 36h handbuilts and 2 steel frames. I never rode with him; can't imagine how he inflicted that abuse. It's all relative.

[denapista]

I've ridden Tune, Extralite, DT, Chris King and WI. TBH, the T11 hubs have been some of the best rolling hubs I've ridden. When they break in, the BREAK IN! Super good rolling feel and smoothness. The freehub is a Medium in terms of loundess and the polished versions are beautiful to stare at when cleaning your bike.. I'll snag another set in Polished if they present themselves around my payday.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7469/16022671547_de17d76e8a_c.jpg