Rights vs common courtesy

[Tonger]

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

[tigoat]

I agree. What good is it to be right on the road if you are death? It would be wise to look out for your safety first while out riding regardless of whatever your right of way would be.

[William]

There's what you can do, and what you should do. Just because you can, doesn't mean its smart thing to do.







William

[biker72]

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

A little common sense wouldn't hurt either.
A few years ago a local rider was killed at 8:30am on a very busy street during rush hour riding into the sun. Of course the local bicycling community was outraged.

This guy had a perfect right to be on that street but a little common sense would dictate an alternate route.

[William]

A little common sense wouldn't hurt either.
A few years ago a local rider was killed at 8:30am on a very busy street during rush hour riding into the sun. Of course the local bicycling community was outraged.

This guy had a perfect right to be on that street but a little common sense would dictate an alternate route.

There is a certain road near where I live that runs due East/West and can be fairly busy during the morning and evening commute hours. I avoid riding East on it in the mornings, and West on it in the later afternoon for just that reason. Driving a vehicle on that road at those times with a dirty or older pitted windshield makes it almost impossible to see clearly. The law says I can ride my bike on it anytime, but common sense tells me otherwise.







William

[guido]

The local club riders do this all the time and it drives me nuts. To mangle an old Groucho quote "I wouldn't want to be a member of a group stupid enough to behave like that..."

[AngryScientist]

of course this is true. laws aside, the common phrase "share the road" governs the way i approach riding and driving, and in spirit implies that motorists and cyclists through mutual respect and common sense can use the roads together.

[oldpotatoe]

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

Discretion is the better part of valor. 'Making a point', like riding somewhere legal but dumb, may make you 'dead right'. Reminds me of critical mass rides...

[paredown]

We're getting a crop of Fondo-ites riding around our area in preparation for the NYC Gran Fondo. I've been behind a few groups where riders are meandering, not keeping right, or riding two abreast on our narrow country roads.

I'm surprised at the slow reactions of riders to shape up and get right, and the blasé attitude about impeding traffic.

Will Rogers said "Your right to extend your fist ends where it meets my nose"--and our "right" to ride is limited by safety/self preservation first, and good manners second.

[thwart]

Having been seriously injured while riding on our local Ironman route (10:30 AM on a Monday, well away from rush hour), it's amazing how many non-cyclists have opined that I was actually taken out deliberately (BTW, I just happened to be on that road, I'm not a tri-athlete).

Seems there's a lot of folks training for the Ironman who are... well, inconsiderate... or worse.

[sitzmark]

You actually don't - legally. It is a traffic violation to travel in the left lane when not overtaking another vehicle. Thankfully some LEOs enforce this law. Wish more did.

As for 45 in the right hand lane ... well that's all good. Same for a horse drawn carriage or rickshaw (not on interstate of course) if that is one's source of transportation to the office. I don't subscribe to everyone being entitled to drive the speed limit - it is a maximum not a mandate. But I get your gist. Courtesy to others in one's environment is a good thing.

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

[nmrt]

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

Actually, many states have laws that one should only use the left lane for passing. So, in those states, no, one does NOT have the legal right to drive 45 mph in the left lane on the interstate.

[shovelhd]

Were they taking enough of the right lane to impede traffic?

[zap]

In Merryland, riding 2 abreast with vehicles back is not permitted. But then again, there are some roads were it is safer (mostly urban) for cyclists to double up for the betterment of the group. But generally I agree that too many cyclists ride side by side for no good reason.

[oldfatslow]

Just because I have the right to ride two abreast on a training ride in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea. Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

I'm all for cyclist rights but talk about unnecessarily antagonizing motorists in what is already a scary place to ride.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

She shouldn't have worn that short dress. She was asking for it.

In Merryland, riding 2 abreast with vehicles back is not permitted. But then again, there are some roads were it is safer (mostly urban) for cyclists to double up for the betterment of the group. But generally I agree that too many cyclists ride side by side for no good reason.

Sometimes when I ride alone I take the lane. I find that it forces the guy behind me to actually think about safely passing versus just scraping me into the curb while passing.

Were they taking enough of the right lane to impede traffic?

Cyclists do not impede traffic. Cyclists are traffic.

[Gummee]

Cyclists do not impede traffic. Cyclists are traffic.This

I've been on the receiving end of too many close passes to hug the fog line because that seems to *encourage* close passes rather than the opposite.

M

[JStonebarger]

Granted, every situation is different, but let's be clear: In most cases it is safest for cyclists to ride two abreast. In Iowa, the law specifically allows it throughout the state, on any road that allows bicycles to begin with.

Cyclists should ride two abreast in most cases where more than a few are riding together. If motorists are ignorant enough to see that as us being selfish or insensitive to them, our confusion about it won't help the situation.

[Tandem Rider]

To quote my Great Grandfather, "two kinds of rights in this world, legal and last, and yes, you can have them both at the same time". I try to keep that in mind, usually I succeed.

[Gummee]

The UK did a good job explaining things (http://road.cc/content/news/160984-video-chris-boardman-explains-why-cyclists-can-and-do-ride-two-abreast)

M

[nooneline]

I think it's important to hold two different ideas at the same time - which, fortunately, should be well within our capacity:

1. you should ride in a way that increases your safety
2. it sucks to have to act in ways that make up for the behavioral failures of others (ie bad, dangerous, aggressive, careless, or inattentive drivers)

[ergott]

.

I also have the right to drive 45 on the interstate in the left lane, but wouldn't dream of doing that and would be really pissed off if I got stuck behind someone that did.

Just sayin.....


Tonger

In many states it is unlawful to drive in the left lane unless passing slower vehicles.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[beeatnik]

Open to interpretation

WHERE YOU CAN RIDE
If you’re moving as fast as traffic, you can ride wherever you want.

If you’re moving slower than traffic, you can still “take the lane.” The law says that people who ride bikes must ride as close to the right side of the road as practicable except under the following conditions: when passing, preparing for a left turn, avoiding hazards, if the lane is too narrow to share, or if approaching a place where a right turn is authorized. CVC 21202. Unfortunately, some motorists and even police don’t understand cyclists’ right to “take the lane.”

Use the bicycle lane. On a roadway with a bike lane, bicyclists traveling slower than traffic must use the bike lane except when making a left turn, passing, avoiding hazardous conditions, or approaching a place where a right turn is authorized. CVC 21208

Ride with traffic. Bicyclists must travel on the right side of the roadway in the direction of traffic, except when passing, making a legal left turn, riding on a one-way street, riding on a road that is too narrow, or when the right side of the road is closed due to road construction. CVC 21650

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21202.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/progress/

[spoonrobot]

in the middle of a morning rush hour artery in metro Atlanta doesn't mean it's a good idea.

What road, what time?

ITT: Motorist ignorant of highway code condescends to cyclists. More at 5!

[Dead Man]

Safe and respectful - my only rules governing my riding. In that order. Sometimes the first necessitates ignoring the appearance of the second... Just how it is.

If the lane is too narrow for cyclist and motorist to coexist, riding two-abreast is best. Make them slow down, wait for a safe pass, and pass you like any other sloe moving vehicle.

I dont know what the OP is observing.. Are there really clubs/teams that select busy, narrow two lane roadways during rush hour to train on? Or is it just a segment linkup? Ive never known cyclists who choose to **** traffic up - but i know sometimes you have to do a short distance on crappy roads to link up parts of your route, and obviously while youre doing your linkup everyone else out there is just seething with range and condemnation "how can these mother****ers think its ok to ride on this road!!" failing to realize the 4 seconds of contact they have with them that theyre just riding that road for 1/4th of a mile.. Or whatevrr.

[JStonebarger]

The other thing we sometimes don't think of is that ten cyclists single file is a long line to get past. Two abreast halves that.

[peanutgallery]

This is the conundrum as to why I no longer ride the road, dirt only. Scary example, local group rides are led by maroons, busy roads, running stop signs/red lights etc. About the only thing that they don't do is ride is the interstate. This all takes place after 6pm. Annoys drivers and puts the onus on them not to run them down

Rights vs. Rites

I'll take the trails

[shovelhd]

This

I've been on the receiving end of too many close passes to hug the fog line because that seems to *encourage* close passes rather than the opposite.

M

If you are blocking faster traffic, you are by definition impeding traffic. Good luck with your strategy. I hope you have a long and safe cycling life.

[bcroslin]

rather than posting about this in an Internet forum why not bring it up with the folks who actually do the ride you're complaining about? I bet the club that organizes the ride has a FB page. Or, and this would be an absolute last resort, call the local PD and complain and I bet they'll send an officer out to politely ask that they stop riding like jerks.

[chiasticon]

Sometimes when I ride alone I take the lane. I find that it forces the guy behind me to actually think about safely passing versus just scraping me into the curb while passing.same. as others have said, generally you have to try and balance what's legal, what's safest, and what's most-courteous. but always be on the defensive.

[Fivethumbs]

The last time I had a close call was with another cyclist when a large group ride decided to all blow the stop sign at the intersection I was riding across. The leaders looked at me and saw that I was far enough away for them to run the stop without causing an accident. But once the first few riders ran the stop, the next 30 just blasted right through without even looking. Likely not an isolated incident. Does anyone wonder why we get yelled at and crap thrown at us?

[spoonrobot]

If you are blocking faster traffic, you are by definition impeding traffic. Good luck with your strategy. I hope you have a long and safe cycling life.

So what is supposed to happen when the lane is only 9 feet wide? And the state has a 3 foot law? In Georgia bicyclists are never impeding traffic if they are riding in a legal manner. We are, as mentioned above, a part of traffic and must be treated as such.

Furthermore Metro Atlanta has very poor road connectivity. It is endless culdesacs and very few low traffic through-roads. This "morning rush hour artery" could very well be a leafy, residential road that is 20 feet wide and was designed for a few dozen cars a day and easily sees upwards of several hundred as the infrastructure has not kept up with the magnitude of residential increases. Drivers that should be routed to their destination via trunk roads and restricted access highways will often use residential streets as they incorrectly perceive this to be a faster option. There is no surface street traffic enforcement during commuting hours. Which brings the next point, morning commuting hours can stretch from 6:00am to 10:30am depending on the area. So without further information it's hard to make any determination. This clue from the OP is pretty damning though:

Acting all angry and entitled wouldn't help either.

What'd you do OP? Honk, buzz, yell, etc?

[oldfatslow]

Wow, a lot of avowed cyclists saying cyclists should, in all situations, yield to cars, hug the Fog line, not ride on the road during "busy" times, etc.

The last time I had a close call was with another cyclist when a large group ride decided to all blow the stop sign at the intersection I was riding across. The leaders looked at me and saw that I was far enough away for them to run the stop without causing an accident. But once the first few riders ran the stop, the next 30 just blasted right through without even looking. Likely not an isolated incident. Does anyone wonder why we get yelled at and crap thrown at us?

Cyclists should obey the law. What that group did was wrong. In that situation, you should speak to the ride leaders (maybe not at that exact moment but definitely speak your mind). I know of some big group rides whose leaders stopped leading because people would run stop signs or other nonsense.

That said, drivers of vehicles also should obey the law.

rather than posting about this in an Internet forum why not bring it up with the folks who actually do the ride you're complaining about? I bet the club that organizes the ride has a FB page. Or, and this would be an absolute last resort, call the local PD and complain and I bet they'll send an officer out to politely ask that they stop riding like jerks.

Do you call the police every time you see a farm tractor driving on a country road if it takes you a few minutes to safely pass it? Do you call the police every time you see a large construction front loader (or similar) driving on a city street if it take you a few minutes to safely pass it?

If you are blocking faster traffic, you are by definition impeding traffic. Good luck with your strategy. I hope you have a long and safe cycling life.

I hear your sarcasm. Cyclists have every right to the road. We do not impede traffic by riding 1-up or 2 abreast. Again, we are traffic. We'll continue to protect your right to use the road even as you abdicate them and side with the small percentage of motorists who act aggressively toward cyclists (and likely aggressively to all other motorists as well).

So what is supposed to happen when the lane is only 9 feet wide? And the state has a 3 foot law? In Georgia bicyclists are never impeding traffic if they are riding in a legal manner. We are, as mentioned above, a part of traffic and must be treated as such.

Furthermore Metro Atlanta has very poor road connectivity. It is endless culdesacs and very few low traffic through-roads. This "morning rush hour artery" could very well be a leafy, residential road that is 20 feet wide and was designed for a few dozen cars a day and easily sees upwards of several hundred as the infrastructure has not kept up with the magnitude of residential increases. Drivers that should be routed to their destination via trunk roads and restricted access highways will often use residential streets as they incorrectly perceive this to be a faster option. There is no surface street traffic enforcement during commuting hours. Which brings the next point, morning commuting hours can stretch from 6:00am to 10:30am depending on the area. So without further information it's hard to make any determination. This clue from the OP is pretty damning though:

What'd you do OP? Honk, buzz, yell, etc?

Agree completely. Lived in Altanta for 10+ years. My boys were born in Atlanta. MANY of the "busy" roads are based on old cow paths connecting towns via old Ferry river crossings. Where I lived in Sandy Springs the major suburb route went from divided four lanes to two lanes with no median right near my house. I don't know how you commute or do a long ride without conveying across these roads.

In my suburban neighborhood just outside of Austin there's a street which has two lanes in each direction and a raised median divider. There is no stretch of the road which is more than 1/2 mile long before you hit a stop sign. Speed limit is 35mph. I learned that if ride a foot off the curb that cars, on this quiet neighborhood street, with an open lane to the left, will buzz by sometimes less than a foot as they try to squeeze past me while staying in the lane (with a lane open to the left). So now I always take the lane. This forces the car to move to the other lane. If that means they have to slow down so be it. And yes, I'm oldfatslow so I ride with a mirror and am as aware of my surroundings as I can be to watch for nonsense. I also do a lot of my riding way out of town to avoid cars as best possible but I refuse to drive to my rides (but we did buy a weekend house as a purposeful place from which to launch bike rides). I took @overmyhead at some of those roads on Monday and he couldn't believe you could do a 40 mile ride with so few cars.

[Tonger]

So what is supposed to happen when the lane is only 9 feet wide? And the state has a 3 foot law? In Georgia bicyclists are never impeding traffic if they are riding in a legal manner. We are, as mentioned above, a part of traffic and must be treated as such.

Furthermore Metro Atlanta has very poor road connectivity. It is endless culdesacs and very few low traffic through-roads. This "morning rush hour artery" could very well be a leafy, residential road that is 20 feet wide and was designed for a few dozen cars a day and easily sees upwards of several hundred as the infrastructure has not kept up with the magnitude of residential increases. Drivers that should be routed to their destination via trunk roads and restricted access highways will often use residential streets as they incorrectly perceive this to be a faster option. There is no surface street traffic enforcement during commuting hours. Which brings the next point, morning commuting hours can stretch from 6:00am to 10:30am depending on the area. So without further information it's hard to make any determination. This clue from the OP is pretty damning though:



What'd you do OP? Honk, buzz, yell, etc?

Maybe it was you out there this AM?

It was a four lane road with a center turning lane at 730 AM. Legal nuances aside, taking out one of two lanes during rush hour is functionally impeding traffic. Given the number of inpatient and distracted drivers in Atlanta who aggressively run red lights and turn in front of people, further antagonizing them just doesn't seem like a very considerate or safe long term strategy. To specifically answer your last question, I always give cyclists a break, even the seemingly selfish ones.

My friend was killed on a similar road in similar conditions almost exactly 4 years ago. He was a great human being and left behind a wife and two school age daughters who sold their house and moved out of our neighborhood. He also had every legal right to be in his lane.

We are not going to agree so, like shovelhd, I'll just join him in wishing you the best.

[bikinchris]

If you are blocking faster traffic, you are by definition impeding traffic. Good luck with your strategy. I hope you have a long and safe cycling life.

No, if you are traveling at the highest rate you can, but still below the expected speed you are not "impeding" traffic. It has been tested in court several times.

[bikinchris]

Words to ride by:
Visible
Predictable
Alert
Assertive
Courteous

Choosing a good route makes a LOT of sense. It is safer and more pleasant. We don't ride to get buzzed and antagonize auto drivers.

[oldfatslow]

Words to ride by:
Choosing a good route makes a LOT of sense. It is safer and more pleasant. We don't ride to get buzzed and antagonize auto drivers.

Amen.

I am very aware of the routes I choose and optimize to minimize issues.

[spoonrobot]

Maybe it was you out there this AM?


It wasn't.

What road?

[beeatnik]

My friend was killed on a similar road in similar conditions almost exactly 4 years ago. He was a great human being and left behind a wife and two school age daughters who sold their house and moved out of our neighborhood. He also had every legal right to be in his lane.

We are not going to agree so, like shovelhd, I'll just join him in wishing you the best.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/freddies-on-the-edge/

I got a message from Scott S. the other day. He had heard about the collision from two weeks back in which South Bay cyclist Steve Shriver was run over on PCH, suffering catastrophic injuries. Coming hard on the heels of Jon Tansavadti’s death in March, as well as a rash of near misses in Long Beach, Scott was concerned.

“Anything we can learn from these tragedies?” he asked.

My answer was simple. “I don’t have the answer, Scott, but I can tell you this: What we’re doing now isn’t working.”

Then we talked about the gaping hole in our cycling experience, otherwise known as the utter lack of formal cycling education. Steve had been run over riding single file, up against the edge of a construction zone. Jon had been killed by a right-turning moving van.

We can argue all day about where they were and where they should have been, but we can’t argue about this: Neither rider had ever taken a formal bike education course–one, with more than 30 years of experience, the other, with less than twelve months.

[shovelhd]

No, if you are traveling at the highest rate you can, but still below the expected speed you are not "impeding" traffic. It has been tested in court several times.

The Grim Reaper is laughing at you.

I'm about to head out for the weekly club hammerfest ride. We ride two abreast when we can but on narrow roads we single up. No blown lights. Roll the right turn stop signs if clear, stop if not. We haven't had an incident with an automobile in the eight years I've been doing it.

Ride safe.

[paredown]

Words to ride by:
Visible
Predictable
Alert
Assertive
Courteous

Choosing a good route makes a LOT of sense. It is safer and more pleasant. We don't ride to get buzzed and antagonize auto drivers.

^^This^^

And as Shovel says, "ride safe."

Around here we get a lot of the "whip around--I'm not taking my foot off the gas" drivers. This, plus narrow roads makes me willing to hug the fog line, because the idiots will pass me at speed, regardless of visibility, which means potential for head-ons with oncoming traffic.

I'd rather have them passing close to me (and bail out for me is the verge), than endangering me plus other motorists if they are crossing the double yellow where visibility is poor to get by me.

[JStonebarger]

I'm about to head out for the weekly club hammerfest ride... No blown lights. Roll the right turn stop signs if clear, stop if not. We haven't had an incident with an automobile in the eight years I've been doing it.

A disciplined group ride is a wonderful thing, but in all fairness the folks who just pulled off don't have a lot of say about how to take intersections, or at least not right at that moment. It sounds like over the years your group has come to a consensus. Lucky you. Maybe if there was a similar group around here I'd do more group rides.

...We ride two abreast when we can but on narrow roads we single up...

Unless your group is 5 or 6 riders max this can only make it harder for motorists to pass. It may look like you're being "considerate," but it's not the safest practice.
The Grim Reaper is laughing at you.

Maybe it's only because I've been hit by cars twice now (riding alone at the right side of the road), but I find your sense of humor disturbing. And, for the record, I'd rather ride with people who act like we belong on the roads.

Ride safe.

Yeah, keep trying.

[Fivethumbs]

I think a lot of us are forgetting the original message of this thread - It's not a question of whether one has the right to do something, it is a question of whether one will extend courtesy and consideration to others in situations when he/she does not have to.

The cycling community is made up of human beings with the associated character flaws that come with the territory. I'm sure we all have seen cyclists and motorists we thought were cool and some we thought were jerks. I get disappointed when, on every ride, I see spent CO2 cartridges and punctured inner tubes lying on the side of the road. They can't stick those things in their jersey until they come across a trash can?

If every motorist treated a cyclist the way they would want to be treated if they were on a bike and every cyclist treated motorists the way they would want to be treated if they were driving the car, then maybe I could ride my bike without getting hit with a half full cup of McDonald's soda when I am in the bike lane.

[JStonebarger]

I think a lot of us are forgetting the original message of this thread - It's not a question of whether one has the right to do something, it is a question of whether one will extend courtesy and consideration to others in situations when he/she does not have to.

I get it. And as a cyclist, pedestrian, and motorist I honestly don't have much of an "us or them" attitude about these things... But...

Single file in a large group is not safe. Two abreast is almost always better for cyclists and motorists, and more and more state laws reflect that. If we proliferate the unsafe practice of stringing out groups of cyclists single file in a misguided attempt at appearing "considerate" of motorists we can never expect them to accept the best practice -- riding two abreast. (Passing 20 cyclists single file takes twice as long as the same group two abreast, and single file makes it much harder for motorists to see the size of the group they're passing.)

Failing to educate motorists and cyclists on this will cost lives.

[bikinchris]

I get it. And as a cyclist, pedestrian, and motorist I honestly don't have much of an "us or them" attitude about these things... But...

Single file in a large group is not safe. Two abreast is almost always better for cyclists and motorists, and more and more state laws reflect that. If we proliferate the unsafe practice of stringing out groups of cyclists single file in a misguided attempt at appearing "considerate" of motorists we can never expect them to accept the best practice -- riding two abreast. (Passing 20 cyclists single file takes twice as long as the same group two abreast, and single file makes it much harder for motorists to see the size of the group they're passing.)

Failing to educate motorists and cyclists on this will cost lives.

You do have one point. A line of 5 cyclists double wide is quicker to pass than a line of 10 cyclists. Since auto drivers should use the other lane to pass anyway, it does sometimes make more sense. BUT it also make sense to break up larger groups into small groups.

A lot of what I teach is more toward single riders or small groups.

[572cv]

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/freddies-on-the-edge/

[ “I don’t have the answer, Scott, but I can tell you this: What we’re doing now isn’t working.”

Then we talked about the gaping hole in our cycling experience, otherwise known as the utter lack of formal cycling education. Steve had been run over riding single file, up against the edge of a construction zone. Jon had been killed by a right-turning moving van.

We can argue all day about where they were and where they should have been, but we can’t argue about this: Neither rider had ever taken a formal bike education course–one, with more than 30 years of experience, the other, with less than twelve months.[/I]

The riders had not taken a formal course, but the question I have raised in my state has to do with the other side of the coin, namely drivers' education. What kind of formal effort is there in drivers ed. to really hammer home the need for awareness of vulnerable users? As near as I can tell, new drivers here learn how to handle a car, signal, stop at lights and signs and generally learn to respond to other vehicles. But not (formally), and not enough, that they share the road with cyclists, and tractors (yes we have farms around in VT) and horseback riders, to name the obvious, who are going much more slowly. All have a right to the public way.
I posit that teaching this more aggressively at the outset would have a long term benefit. The short term is open to question, but over time, it could be a valuable effort.

[Gummee]

^^This^^

And as Shovel says, "ride safe."

Around here we get a lot of the "whip around--I'm not taking my foot off the gas" drivers. This, plus narrow roads makes me willing to hug the fog line, because the idiots will pass me at speed, regardless of visibility, which means potential for head-ons with oncoming traffic.

I'd rather have them passing close to me (and bail out for me is the verge), than endangering me plus other motorists if they are crossing the double yellow where visibility is poor to get by me.
If you ride more assertively, they won't pass you in dangerous spots as often.

AMHIK

All we have to help ensure our safety (you don't think car drivers are looking out for you do you?!) is lane positioning. All it really takes is moving slowly and steadily out to the left side of the right tire track at dangerous spots: crests of hills and blind corners.

You're not 'blocking' anything, but you ARE influencing the behavior if what's coming up behind you.

As soon as you can see it's safe, move slowly and steadily back to the right side of the right tire track and continue your merry way.

M

[Fivethumbs]

Question: Do cyclists get hit by cars because the drivers see them but are trying to squeeze by and misjudge? or Do cyclists get hit by cars because they just do not see them at all. I think it's the latter.

My friends ex-wife crashed into a killed a girl on a bike who was in the center lane waiting to make a left turn. She said she never saw the girl.

[zap]

edit

She said she never saw the girl.

oft used as defense.......and rising/setting sun.

I've had close encounters because motorists did not see me as they exited parking lots. The mind has been trained to look for motor vehicles, not cyclists. Treat side streets and parking entrances/exits with caution, especially on trafficked multi lane roads.

Additionally, don't remain stationary for too long at intersections, turn lane, etc. Cyclists are very vulnerable standing still....cyclists do get hit (as noted above) while waiting at red lights, etc.

[FlashUNC]

I think a lot of us are forgetting the original message of this thread - It's not a question of whether one has the right to do something, it is a question of whether one will extend courtesy and consideration to others in situations when he/she does not have to.

The cycling community is made up of human beings with the associated character flaws that come with the territory. I'm sure we all have seen cyclists and motorists we thought were cool and some we thought were jerks. I get disappointed when, on every ride, I see spent CO2 cartridges and punctured inner tubes lying on the side of the road. They can't stick those things in their jersey until they come across a trash can?

If every motorist treated a cyclist the way they would want to be treated if they were on a bike and every cyclist treated motorists the way they would want to be treated if they were driving the car, then maybe I could ride my bike without getting hit with a half full cup of McDonald's soda when I am in the bike lane.

This is a commendable sentiment, but the reality is far from that. I make the best decisions I can when I'm out there, but I absolutely ride as assertively as I can. I think actions on the bike are part of that whole visibility discussion. And riding so people can see you, rather than in the ditch, is necessary on some stretches of road. That includes taking the lane at times where riding in the gutter would, in my view, be far more dangerous.

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree with some of the ideas here, but I disagree with comparing a recreational bike to a tractor or farm equipment.

First, if you are familiar with farmers, you will know that they often get up extra early to travel the roadways as to not disturb traffic as much. Second, it is commerce driven, not recreational. They have no choice but to drive there, cyclists often do.

Recreational cyclists have done an admirable job of claiming roadway rights while also shirking responsibility. The cyclists I see on the road rarely have a light, front or back, they have almost nothing reflective on them. They have no bell or whistle. They are purely a recreational toy in traffic. The cyclists who ride those toys often seem to have that mindset as well. The commuters seem to be a different breed. Responsible, on point with how they interact with traffic, respectful etc. They seem to get it.

I know this is a generalization, but I don't think it is a mischaracterization. I have noticed it a great deal this Spring, with the nice weather bringing more riders out. The cyclists seem to be completely unaware of what is going on around them, nor do they even seem to care. It is as if " I am riding here, everybody else just fall in around me and make it work".

Maybe I am a curmudgeon, but I call BS on that view.

[Onno]

I know that this is another can of worms, but now that I'm briefly living in a city with lots of bike paths (as opposed to bike lanes), I'm astonished at how discourteous bikers can be to pedestrians on these paths. Most of all, I don't get why guys who want to go fast don't simply stay on the roads, rather than scaring the bejesus out of, and yelling at, pedestrians on the same paths.

[beeatnik]

I know this is a generalization, but I don't think it is a mischaracterization.

Gonna start using that line on my lady.

[lzuk]

Words to ride by:
Visible
Predictable
Alert
Assertive
Courteous

Choosing a good route makes a LOT of sense. It is safer and more pleasant. We don't ride to get buzzed and antagonize auto drivers.

Words of wisdom. Sometimes you get caught on a unfamiliar route where, after the fact, common sense tells you it was a bad idea even though legal

[FlashUNC]

The cyclists seem to be completely unaware of what is going on around them, nor do they even seem to care. It is as if " I am riding here, everybody else just fall in around me and make it work".



I'd argue that's the mindset of a pretty significant chunk of motorists too.

I'm not going to knock cyclists or hold them to some higher standard when the standards we hold drivers to are a joke, particularly in incidents where driver meets cyclist and the cyclist always loses. Whether at the scene or in court.

If road users want to demand cyclists act like everyone else, protect them like everyone else. Otherwise, its more Lord of the Flies out there, and I understand why cyclists will do whatever they feel necessary to stay safe.

[gdw]

Motorists are held to a much higher standard than cyclists and consequently most are more competent than the average person riding a bike. They are required to have a valid license, insurance, and their vehicles must pass inspection to be allowed on the road. Drivers are required to pass written, eye, and road exams before being allowed to purchase their license. Cyclists are subject to no such regulation. Anyone who can ride a bike can take it out on the road and unfortunately a larger percentage of those people than many of us would like to admit fail to operate their vehicle in a safe manner.

[FlashUNC]

Motorists are held to a much higher standard. They are required to have a valid license, insurance, and their vehicles must pass inspection to be allowed on the road. Drivers are required to pass written, eye, and road exams before being allowed to purchase their license. Cyclists are subject to no such regulation.

A license that's renewed, what, every 7-10 years? With a de-minimus eye exam? No required additional road tests after the one to get your original license at 16? And inspection programs that are more about environmental impact from the tailpipe than anything (and are not uniform by state). Many states are even doing away with inspection programs, as citizens view them as too much of a hassle.

It is the absolutely bare minimum to pilot a multi-ton vehicle that can easily travel in excess of the speed limit. To argue our driving requirements in this country are somehow comprehensive or reassuring given what people get to do with it is absurd.

Cyclists are subject to no such regulation because the vehicle that's being used poses far less of a public risk.

But hey, I'd be all for some kind of required training for cyclists if, yanno, drivers that hit cyclists get charged with manslaughter. Or, similar to the Dutch model, are automatically assumed at 100% fault in any collision with a cyclist unless the evidence explicitly proves otherwise.

Want fewer bike/car disasters? Incentivize parties to make sure it doesn't happen.

[cinco]

I will extend common courtesy to anyone who does the same for me. If I am truly impeding traffic, I will move over as soon as safely possible. In return, I should expect that a driver control his impatience until I feel safe enough to make that move.
Holding a position in the center of a lane, (for me, because I cannot speak for others) is never a protest of my rights to "make a point". It is always to ensure my, and as a consequence, a driver's, safety.


Andy in Houston

[zap]

Motorists are held to a much higher standard than cyclists and consequently most are more competent than the average person riding a bike.

Wow...where do you live?

[FlashUNC]

Motorists are held to a much higher standard than cyclists and consequently most are more competent than the average person riding a bike.


http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Laughing-Hard-Meme-10.jpg

[spoonrobot]

What's really interesting is the concept of "planning a good route."

I used to be overly concerned about riding what I thought were low traffic roads until I realized that a couple dozen drivers using Waze to get around an accident or save 2 minutes over taking the freeway are going to render any planning I do null and void.

If cyclists are expected to be courteous and not ride on busy arteries during heavy commute times, are we to expect motorists to stay away from residential through streets? In some parts of the country "No Thru Traffic" is enforceable traffic signage.

The future around here is that the roads are full, pretty much all the time during waking hours 6am-9pm.

I think the best idea is educating cyclists on how to ride with automobiles and educate motorists that having the ability to move down the road at the maximum speed possible (it's called the speed limit) is not something they are entitled to at all times on all roads.

The metro Atlanta population grew, what 40% in 10 years? That's an additional 1,600,000 people. Yet the vast majority of the road network has not been upgraded and is never going to be upgraded. Negative interactions between road users are just another part of the real problems that are going to keep cropping up as population density increases and humans are forced to interact with each other more and more.

[cadence90]

Question: Do cyclists get hit by cars because the drivers see them but are trying to squeeze by and misjudge? or Do cyclists get hit by cars because they just do not see them at all. I think it's the latter.

My friends ex-wife crashed into a killed a girl on a bike who was in the center lane waiting to make a left turn. She said she never saw the girl.

I am certain that it is both. I was hit once by a SUV with a giant passenger side mirror. The mirror hit me in the back and sent me flying. I know the driver saw me because as I was falling I saw both the driver and the passenger looking at me. They just kept on driving, as if it was no big deal.

What a horrible story about your friend's ex. However, that "excuse" is used much too often and in any case is not an excuse at all.

When riding, my assumption is that drivers are half-blind, staring into the sun, talking on their phone, listening to their iPod, disciplining the kid in the back seat, and munching on their In-n-Out. I assume the same about other cyclists.

I'll also second theoldspud's comment re: Critical Mass. As far as I can tell, those people are just a complete, moronic, self-entitled, and uneducated nuisance. I was at a stop sign, behind another car at around 11:00PM one night, on a quiet side street. In front of the car there was a group of CM riders, milling about. They would NOT move out of the way, and kept looking at the driver in front of me.

He honked once, leaned out of his window, and said something, not yelling. At that point one of the CM riders leaned on this fellow's car.... BAD idea! The guy got out of his car, and now yelled something to the effect of, "Get off of my effing car and get the eff out of my way!", headed straight for the CM "leaner", and pushed him + bike all the way onto the nearby lawn. CM crowd quickly parted at that point.

[Red Tornado]

When approaching side streets/parking lots where cars are fixing to pull out from, I always keep my eye on the driver, not so much the vehicle. Over time I've gotten to where I can tell (I think) by body language whether they really see me or not. If I think they don't see me, I'll bob my head/move upper body/wave my hand. You'd be amazed how many drivers suddenly jerk or change facial expressions once they see you - and slam on the brakes if they have begun to roll forward. When in doubt I always assume they don't see me. Even do this when I'm driving, and though the time frame is reduced due to my higher speed, has still saved my bacon a few times.
The additional movement of me on my bike has helped many a time, but not every time. Luckily I've been able to either find a quick bail out line to take, or just plain got lucky in keeping the rubber side down.
I get about 1/3 of my miles commuting to work on, at times, very crowded roads. A little common sense goes a long way. Have to adapt your riding to the conditions and not always force it, even if the law allows.

[GregL]

One factor I don't think has been discussed thus far: the average driver's perception of a cyclist's speed. My observation is that most driver's see a bike (on flat ground) and perceive that it is traveling at 5-10 mile per hour. Most cycling enthusiasts travel 15-20 MPH, a 2-3X difference. I've had multiple drivers pull out in front of me, or pass and then turn right in front of me, that I attributed to their misperception of my speed and our closing rate.

- Greg

[shovelhd]

When approaching side streets/parking lots where cars are fixing to pull out from, I always keep my eye on the driver, not so much the vehicle. Over time I've gotten to where I can tell (I think) by body language whether they really see me or not. If I think they don't see me, I'll bob my head/move upper body/wave my hand. You'd be amazed how many drivers suddenly jerk or change facial expressions once they see you - and slam on the brakes if they have begun to roll forward. When in doubt I always assume they don't see me. Even do this when I'm driving, and though the time frame is reduced due to my higher speed, has still saved my bacon a few times.
The additional movement of me on my bike has helped many a time, but not every time. Luckily I've been able to either find a quick bail out line to take, or just plain got lucky in keeping the rubber side down.
I get about 1/3 of my miles commuting to work on, at times, very crowded roads. A little common sense goes a long way. Have to adapt your riding to the conditions and not always force it, even if the law allows.

Now that's safe riding. Kudos.

[paredown]

...

The metro Atlanta population grew, what 40% in 10 years? That's an additional 1,600,000 people. Yet the vast majority of the road network has not been upgraded and is never going to be upgraded. Negative interactions between road users are just another part of the real problems that are going to keep cropping up as population density increases and humans are forced to interact with each other more and more.

Although not every region has had this kind of extensive growth, most areas have had unbelievable growth in the number of vehicles on the road. Three, four and five vehicle households are common--often kids plus parents are on the road at the same time.

I remember looking at this when I was still in Vancouver--the number of vehicles on the road nearly doubled from when I was a young guy piling on the miles for racing, to the turn of the millennium.

Seems like simple probability that the likelihood of bad encounter is higher now, all else being equal--and a lot of places have not done much (or can't do much) to ease congestion on the average arterial streets...

[merlinmurph]

When approaching side streets/parking lots where cars are fixing to pull out from, I always keep my eye on the driver, not so much the vehicle.

In the same situation, I look at them right in the eye and wait for them to look right at my eyes. If they don't look right at me, I'm really cautious. Nothing is foolproof. In fairness, I live/ride in the semi-boonies.

[shovelhd]

In the same situation, I look at them right in the eye and wait for them to look right at my eyes. If they don't look right at me, I'm really cautious. Nothing is foolproof. In fairness, I live/ride in the semi-boonies.

I've had them look right in my eye for 2-3 seconds and then pull out right in front of me. Nothing is foolproof.

[velomonkey]

To the OP . . . . I know, I totally know.

You know what I hate: I mean I know you have the right to rolling coal. And I know you have the right to throttle your harley right as you pass me. And some states you do have the right to talk on your phone and drive. And is it a right to make eye contact with a cyclist and pull out right in front of them? I bet in Tennessee it is. Or pass a cyclist and then immediately brake and turn right. Or remember that time a bike rider killed that family by crashing into their minivan. So sad, the inter webs can't find the link, probably because it happens all the time. Or . . . .

Oh wait, you were talking about bikers being the problem. Oh, may bad.

So you opted to join them in the camaraderie of loving two wheels and discuss car operator perception - nope - you came to an internet BB and anonymously posted bitching out bike riders.

How to be a great Hall Monitor. (http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Great-Hall-Monitor)

[beeatnik]

VM, I've missed you, man!

[HenryA]

I've had them look right in my eye for 2-3 seconds and then pull out right in front of me. Nothing is foolproof.

Yep.
Be careful of this. Eye contact is not always what you think. Often they are looking way past you and not really seeing you on your bike (or motorcycle or even car).

[oldfatslow]

So you opted to join them in the camaraderie of loving two wheels and discuss car operator perception - nope - you came to an internet BB and anonymously posted bitc

Amen brother. I had punched another 10 of these comments to quote and comment on but I'm done with this thread. I can't believe that on a site focused on the love of bikes and riding them that there'd be so many people willing to forgo their right to the road. If we don't insist on our rights then who the hell will?


The guy yesterday in the giant RV on the country road outside of Blanco, TX who beeped his horn because he was unhappy that I was the sole other vehicle on the road?

The lady Wednesday on my normal ride North of Austin training route who accelerated in front of me and made a right turn almost through me?

The guy Tuesday who made a left turn right through my path forcing me to lock-up my brakes to avoid 1st getting broadsided and then 2nd crashing into the side of his car?


I ride with a Niterider 600 lumen headlight blinking wildly and a Dionotte brighter than the sun taillight. I'm super visible. I'm careful in my routes. This kind of stuff happens all the time. If you don't see this stuff happening you are likely spending too much time on this forum and not enough time riding your bike.

Do we need to advocate that our "team" rides safely, plans smart routes where possible, wears visible clothing, & adorns their bike with lights, etc.? Sure. Given our knowledge of the enemy it would be stupid not to take defensive action against them. That said, you won't find me making any excuses for them. I will politely try to educate but I will not make excuses for them.

[milkbaby]

Amen brother. I had punched another 10 of these comments to quote and comment on but I'm done with this thread. I can't believe that on a site focused on the love of bikes and riding them that there'd be so many people willing to forgo their right to the road. If we don't insist on our rights then who the hell will?


What you said... I don't get how so many cyclists are advocating against their own safety and rights!

How many of these people are screaming at school buses for impeding traffic with all their slow driving, no turns on red, and continual stopping in the middle of the road? Why can't people just wait a minute and pass safely?

[velomonkey]

VM, I've missed you, man!

Finals are kicking in and Brown lacrosse is ranked 2nd in the country - so been off the inter webs for a while.

Worry not brother, you and I connect on another level - a dimension most cats can't comprehend we be chilling.

[velomonkey]

Dang Auto Correct

[shovelhd]

The RV, did he toot his horn or lay on it? That's he difference between letting you know he's there and is about to pass, or being a jerk. Not a huge deal though. Life's too short.

The left and right turners though, no excuse for either one. I'd be wicked pissed.

[velomonkey]

First ride with Fly12 and got 2 cars busting the 3 foot rule. They were both bad. I'm sure it's my fault - even though I wasn't going West in the evening, or riding 2 abreast, outside the shoulder - I was just existing. The road is older than cars - there is a HUGE sign that says to share the road with bikers, it's a scenic drive. It is heavily used by families riding their bikes, walking, jogging.

There was a car coming the other way, which is rare since the road isn't travel all that much, but this driver just didn't want to wait the 2 seconds. Too much for him to handle.

I'm sick of this hall monitor stuff - No one on a bike EVER should have their safety compromised for a driver's convenience.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1691/26445606060_76db8b4ca8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)IMG_0592 (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)

[Tonger]

To the OP . . . . I know, I totally know.

You know what I hate: I mean I know you have the right to rolling coal. And I know you have the right to throttle your harley right as you pass me. And some states you do have the right to talk on your phone and drive. And is it a right to make eye contact with a cyclist and pull out right in front of them? I bet in Tennessee it is. Or pass a cyclist and then immediately brake and turn right. Or remember that time a bike rider killed that family by crashing into their minivan. So sad, the inter webs can't find the link, probably because it happens all the time. Or . . . .

Oh wait, you were talking about bikers being the problem. Oh, may bad.

So you opted to join them in the camaraderie of loving two wheels and discuss car operator perception - nope - you came to an internet BB and anonymously posted bitching out bike riders.

How to be a great Hall Monitor. (http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Great-Hall-Monitor)

The point of my OP is that sometimes we end up making things worse for ourselves by behaving in a way that appears unnecessarily self-centered. More road rage and less driver patience results in less safety for cyclists everywhere - and we agree that the damn cars never lose. Unfortunately, the price for the driver goodwill that gets exhausted by the cycling prima donna will likely be paid by some other unfortunate soul. There are selfish folks pissing in the community pool and everyone else pays.

Is thinking you're better than others holding you back socially? (http://www.succeedsocially.com/negativetoothers)

Maybe it would be better out there for the rest of us if you stay in your 'safe space'...

:rolleyes:

[velomonkey]

Maybe it would be better out there for the rest of us if you stay in your 'safe space'...


So what you are saying is I am responsible for another cyclist getting hit? Wicked offensive, buddy.

[beeatnik]

finals are kicking in and brown lacrosse is ranked 2nd in the country - so been off the inter webs for a while.

Worry not brother, you and i connect on another level - a dimension most cats can't comprehend we be chilling.

potd

[fuzzalow]

This item is always a very hot topic. There are so many emotions and intentions all mixed into a volatile brew of actionable behaviour and militant intent. And for all the milliseconds that make up a developing traffic scenario, all players will only see and react to what they want to see and how they want to see it. This discussion involves an argument that nobody can win or convince others of otherwise.

I can only say:


I'd never ride a road against my better judgement as to safety, traffic flow and time of day to "Make a Point" about perceived rights by insistence to being on a roadway at a high-risk time. It's bad PR and bad politics.
The average motorist is woefully incompetent yet feeling of themselves as "better than average" drivers. No one will educate or help somebody else see things in a different way via a roadside altercation.

Finally, that picture posted above of the Hyundai isn't the egregious driver. is it? That car is almost as far to the left as the wheels on the double yellow line - which is the most you can expect from a driver. The better driver will not be afraid to violate the double yellow to give the entire lane to a cyclist if the opposing lane is clear, but most drivers will not do this so that is as good as you're gonna get. No cop should write a ticket for violating a double yellow on a clear road in exercising maximum safety in passing for a situation like this.

The amount of lane (between the red lines) available to a cyclist is IMO not bad. A rider that hears Hyundai coming should put his tire on the 3 inch target on the right of his part of the roadway - that pulls your right handlebar width over into mailbox territory so look & plan ahead. But you gotta move right to give yourself maximum clearance between your left handlebar edge and a car or passenger mirror. You can ride that close to the right because there is not a curb to trip over in catching the wheel. When Hyundai passes and the road behind the rider clears, then move over to the left and give yourself a normal gap from the edge of the road.

This topic is always a barn burner. I'm glad I ride like me and not like somebody else. When I ride in Manhattan open traffic, I despise coming up to other riders - in open traffic my line is the only one that counts because I did the calculations and I cannot allow another rider's judgement to impact my own choice in getting safely through the gridlock. As you might guess, the other guy's skills and judgement are all over the place. And I'm sure he thinks the same of me.

Ride safe out there.

[cadence90]

First ride with Fly12 and got 2 cars busting the 3 foot rule. They were both bad. I'm sure it's my fault - even though I wasn't going West in the evening, or riding 2 abreast, outside the shoulder - I was just existing.
There was a car coming the other way, which is rare since the road isn't travel all that much, but this driver just didn't want to wait the 2 seconds. Too much for him to handle.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1691/26445606060_76db8b4ca8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)IMG_0592 (https://flic.kr/p/GhUDkb)
Wow.

Disregarding the virtual red gobbley-gook. I would be more than happy with that much real clearance from a car, as well as fine with the (looks like it to me) courtesy shown by the driver.

[Fivethumbs]

This does appear to be a situation where no one is going to persuade others to change their point of view. I don't think I read any posts advocating for anyone to give up their rights or to do anything unsafe. I thought the message was basically, be nice when you can. I'm for that.

But, also, if everyone would please keep in mind that how you conduct yourself on the road just might impact how another cyclist will be treated on another day. I have been yelled at and had crap thrown at me on more than one occasion (it always seems to be McDonald's food) for nothing I did wrong. Either the people that threw the food hate La Vie Claire or just hate all cyclists. I think it's probably the latter. One guy even yelled, "F___K YOU LANCE!" (and my name is not Lance).

[velomonkey]

Wow.

Disregarding the virtual red gobbley-gook. I would be more than happy with that much real clearance from a car, as well as fine with the (looks like it to me) courtesy shown by the driver.

Those 'red gobbley-gook' lines - that would be an exact measurement of 3 feet - - you know, the 3 feet clearance require by law. It's the same tech they use in those magic cars that beep when you are close to stuff and even, wait for it, drive themselves. Then again, you clearly have powers outside of the norm given that you can not only 'see' the driver, but you somehow magically know their intent and courtesy.

one note: 'real clearance' - can you explain that? There is clearance and then there is, um, clearance. What, exactly, is 'real clearance?' Be specific please. Laymen terms would help.

One note, Ace, your link comes up with a 404 not found, but I digress.

[Black Dog]

Those 'red gobbley-gook' lines - that would be an exact measurement of 3 feet - - you know, the 3 feet clearance require by law. It's the same tech they use in those magic cars that beep when you are close to stuff and even, wait for it, drive themselves. Then again, you clearly have powers outside of the norm given that you can not only 'see' the driver, but you somehow magically know their intent and courtesy.

One note, Ace, your link comes up with a 404 not found, but I digress.



Here is the fix: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=20491&highlight=kish

The link was set to the old serotta forum.

[velomonkey]

I'm glad I ride like me and not like somebody else.

Me too.

[velomonkey]

[/B]


Here is the fix: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=20491&highlight=kish

The link was set to the old serotta forum.

Thanks. I see two dudes who ride ti bikes and appreciate many of the same things and probably would have a good time doing a ride and having a drink.

Some people can magically see the driver, they can tell their intent.

I'm not one of those dudes. I prefer driver's to use that pedal to the left, wait 3 seconds and then safely pass - call me old fashioned. When I was in my 20s I lived in DC and loved moving my bike among the cars. Some call it naive, or youth, some called it churlish . . . . . .

[cadence90]

Those 'red gobbley-gook' lines - that would be an exact measurement of 3 feet - - you know, the 3 feet clearance require by law. It's the same tech they use in those magic cars that beep when you are close to stuff and even, wait for it, drive themselves. Then again, you clearly have powers outside of the norm given that you can not only 'see' the driver, but you somehow magically know their intent and courtesy.

one note: 'real clearance' - can you explain that? There is clearance and then there is, um, clearance. What, exactly, is 'real clearance?' Be specific please. Laymen terms would help.

One note, Ace, your link comes up with a 404 not found, but I digress.
Wow, why so touchy?

The gobbley-gook lines are exactly that: they are virtual, imposed on an image by some software. Do I trust that they represent "exactly" 3 feet? Not really, but that doesn't matter.

What is apparent from the image is that there is (real, actual, perceivable, measurable) clearance to your left, and that the driver is as far left as possible, touching the double-yellow. I don't see the car as acting in an invasive manner, but I guess you did/do.

I have no idea what you mean by, "Then again, you clearly have powers outside of the norm given that you can not only 'see' the driver, but you somehow magically know their intent and courtesy." I really don't.

"Ace"? What? :rolleyes:

That link, if you are really that curious about it, was posted years ago when this was the Serotta Forum, and I guess that the links didn't come with the change to Paceline.

[cadence90]

[/B]


Here is the fix: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=20491&highlight=kish

The link was set to the old serotta forum.

Thanks Black Dog! :beer:
Much appreciated.

Fixed, thanks!

[velomonkey]

Wow, why so touchy?


It's Friday - I got a bottle of wine, my wife and family.



The gobbley-gook lines are exactly that: they are virtual, imposed on an image by some software. Do I trust that they represent "exactly" 3 feet? Not really, but that doesn't matter.


Well considering links are clearly above your understanding of technical items this doesn't surprise me. I knew someone was gonna say I was at fault. I'm glad it was you.


I don't see the car as acting in an invasive manner, but I guess you did/do.


Actually Ace, 'cars' with the proper tech will act in a 'invasive' manner. It's the same tech used with those red line thingys. Now, here is a good article for you to read, you need to click on the link (https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/new-footage-shows-how-googles-self-driving-cars-handle-real?utm_term=.tqPlLwpOJ#.qtVabzqEm), and, as you have already admitted, that is beyond your comprehension. I trust you can do this. Just believe. Use your mouse, put to over the link above, click, and go to magical place. It's a whole new world.


I have no idea what you mean by, "Then again, you clearly have powers outside of the norm given that you can not only 'see' the driver, but you somehow magically know their intent and courtesy." I really don't.


Let me use your words . . . .in verbatim "(looks like it to me) courtesy shown by the driver." - we know, for fact, the driver isn't given 3 feet, they aren't driving in an 'invasive' manner - so if they aren't operating a moving vehicle in an invasive manner how then, exactly, are they operating with courtesy? Clearly you know, I don't see it, but you do.

That link, if you are really that curious about it, was posted years ago when this was the Serotta Forum, and I guess that the links didn't come with the change to Paceline.

Actually I was curios, so I clicked, it failed. Then I got a new link, and clicked - and saw something that brought us together. You haven't seen that yet. No big surprise. The more you know . . . . .

[cadence90]

It's Friday - I got a bottle of wine, my wife and family.

If you had stopped here, it would be fine.
I really don't understand the other insults, etc. though; but I also really don't care to respond.

Have a better weekend.

[Black Dog]

Velomonkey...perhaps its the wine typing for you, but maybe it would not hurt to lower the tone down a hair.

[velomonkey]

If you had stopped here, it would be fine.
I really don't understand the other insults, etc. though; but I also really don't care to respond.


Did you click the link? Come on, click it. Click it!!!! Learn something new and show everyone that salty dogs can learns something and admit that both software and hardware can make better decisions than operators of cars. It's not just red gobbitie-gook.

Enjoy the ride on ti - it's sublime. I'd know.

[velomonkey]

Velomonkey...perhaps its the wine typing for you, but maybe it would not hurt to lower the tone down a hair.

It's not the wine, my man. I have a problem when faced with the empirical evidence of car drivers operating a car in a bad manner people blame the rider. I live right off that road. It's a road I have to take, but, more important, it's a road a lot of families use. It is a road older than cars and it's scenic route. My only other choices to get home is factually more dangerous.

The driver only had to wait 2 seconds - he/she opted not to do that and played a card that involved putting me in danger. I came out fine now - as I typically do, but, cripes, can we at least give the rider(s) the benefit of the doubt??? Seems even when faced with facts we can't.

My freaking right shifter is over the dirt and I got Ruby telling me I don't know how to ride. Sorry, got no patience for that.

[Bradford]

I think this thread has run its course and its time to move on.

Please remember to always be respectful in your posts and keep this a place without personal insults or attacks.