your professions

[pdxmech13]

Does anyone else get questioned in their field
I realize having a career for 15 years isn't
the longest but it drives me nuts when
I'm told what to do or my opinion is questioned.
Do we as humans have no regard for trust

I stopped working for Taco Bell
Viva Gordita

[Fat Robert]

I'm a public school teacher.

My personality and PhD deter a lot of "competence questioning" (its an act that, yes, I've cultivated)...but, because I'm a public school teacher, everyone over the age of 18 seems to think they can do my job better than I can.

hey -- I'm moving my cleats back a tad.

[pdxmech13]

obviously tenure and obssession
no longer count for anything


funny.......I was gonna tilt my saddle up sumore

[Fat Robert]

but bow ties can intimidate

its all in how you work it

(its sinking in to my thick fat head that steve hogg and the jerk are right about cleat placement)

[Ginger]

Well...now that you mention it...

It must be a 15 year thing. Happened just today.

I don't mind people telling me what to do, I'm rather good natured about that. Especially when they don't know my job. But when they're incorrect, I cause them to understand the errors of their ways. (more than one error in this case...)

Technical Writer. 15 years.

[spiderlake]

I work in the thankless field of information security. Despite having a successful track record and a fair bit of acclaim in my field (not trying to brag but illustrate a point), I am questioned on a daily basis. We're always seen as the paranoids and the zealots so any recommendation made to the business is immediately challenged by executive leadership. Sometimes I wonder how I've made it this long without throwing in the towel. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy what I do and I'm comfortable with being challenged but it would be nice to go through a day without feeling like I've gone 10 rounds with Tyson.

[PK9]

I'm a graphic designer with 20 years of experience working on national and global accounts.

I have my opinion questioned ALL the time because:
a) they think spinning logos are VERY cool,
b) they just threw something together in PowerPoint they think might be helpful,
or
c) they don't like green.

It's an occupational hazard.

[Ginger]

And they want one of those cool sites with a black background and white text...right?

"What's scalable?"

And from the wayback machine..."will those marks on the edge of the page show?" Why do you have wax at your desk?
and
"I just want to put this paragraph here in the middle of this page, why do you say it will take half a day, I can do it in five minutes, here...watch." (on boards...ha!)

I always feel for the graphic designers.

[BoulderGeek]

15 years in IT: UNIX, 'Doze, client/server networking and systems management.

Questioned and challenged constantly. Now doing security only. But I can ride my Nove at lunch and work barefoot at home.

The lyrics of The Clash's "Career Opportunities" ring true to me:

Career Opportunities,
the ones that never knock.
Bus driver.
Ticket inspector.
Ambulance man.
....

What am I going to do with my life?
:confused:

[PK9]

"I always feel for the graphic designers."

Your sympathy is appreciated -- now, if you can just back me up in my presentation tomorrow...

[gone]

Does anyone else get questioned in their field

I'm retired. I'm good at it so I never get questioned.

[Ti Designs]

This is my 20th year at the bike shop. What sucks about that is most people think cycling is sooooo simple. You sit on the padded thing, your hands go on the part with the grips or tape, and you push on the pedals to make the thing go forward - what kind of expert do you need to be for that??? Half the fittings I do are just listening to people tell me where they want to be or what they think is going to be comfortable. They don't do that with their doctors or lawyers, but the idiot at the bike shop???

[Fivethumbs]

I pump sh*t out of Andy Gumps. Nobody asks me questions...probably because nobody wants to know

[55/Rad]

I stopped working for Taco Bell
I did too, back in 1979 after 3 years working in the trenches.

Currently oversee the television production department of a busy ad agency/production company.

55/Rad

[SoCalSteve]

I've been in the Movie and TV industry for 26 years now. Union position the entire time. I've worked my way up from being a messenger (highly paid one) to being a transportation coordinator (head of the department) and yes, I get questioned CONSTANTLY (even after 26 years!).

Steve

[spiderlake]

Nothing simple about running a business - especially a bike shop. I was just at the LBS tonight and the staff was swamped. A ton of people ranging from hardcore bikers to absolute beginners and everyone looked happy - including the staff. I'd probably flip out under those circumstances but that crew really seems to love what they do! You have my respect, Ed!

This is my 20th year at the bike shop. What sucks about that is most people think cycling is sooooo simple. You sit on the padded thing, your hands go on the part with the grips or tape, and you push on the pedals to make the thing go forward - what kind of expert do you need to be for that??? Half the fittings I do are just listening to people tell me where they want to be or what they think is going to be comfortable. They don't do that with their doctors or lawyers, but the idiot at the bike shop???

[spiderlake]

Your profession reminded me of my brother - until recently, he was a garbage man and worked in that business starting in high school, through college and through law school. Even after passing the bar exam (first try) and getting offers from firms, he stayed in the trash biz. I asked him why on many occassions and his answer was always, "garbage doesn't talk back". Alas, all good things must come to an end because he finally entered the legal profession and longs for the days when he could just throw garbage bags.

I pump sh*t out of Andy Gumps. Nobody asks me questions...probably because nobody wants to know

[Avispa]

People! Some of you sound like you work for one of my superiors....

I have been doing my stuff [seriously] for about 10+ years now. With the exception of one idiot Associate Dean, no one really questions my job or decisions. So I get to go home early and ride my bike ;)

I sometimes wonder if this questioning of our jobs are because or colleages don't know jack crap or they just want to pretend they are doing their jobs? Sometimes, I challenge the questions I get and I see that the people that asks them don't even know what they want or what are they talking about!!!

[slowgoing]

If your boss isn't asking you questions about your work or the budget, your boss either knows you're good or isn't very good at being a boss. It's an inherent part of the business world.

[m_moses]

Health and Safety professional in the oil industry . . . always being questioned and challenged . . . often by the operations folks who think the procedures are just a little more stringent than they need to be especially for the little job they need to do right now and don't worry, they'll definitely be very careful, but you know, we can't shutdown a 50,000 barrel operation for this little job. :crap:

I was having an arguement this morning with a supervisor who says that our "standard operating procedures" are just general guidelines.

Mick

[goonster]

I'm an engineer working in industry for ten years now, and I think that "is this right?" and "is this really necessary?" questions, from both customers and management, are perfectly appropriate. I ask those questions of myself constantly, so the answers are readily available. In my field it's rare to go down a path without knowing exactly how and why.

My sister works in a creative field, and I do not envy her. There, it's not "it's not correct" but "I don't like it" or "do something different" and the ego, tears and emotional violence would be unbearable for me.

[Sandy]

Two jobs over my life:

1. High school math teacher- I don't ever remember being questioned about anything that I did. I was amazed that I was almost never visited in my classroom by anyone to determine how good of a job I was doing. I was the faculty advisor for several of the students clubs or activities and no one questioned me there either, as I remember. I didn't really like the principal and I am sure that he didn't like me, but he always left me alone to teach. I am glad that no one found out that I couldn't add or multiply.

2. Owner of wholesale meat business. (along with my mother). I made the important decisions, but I allowed my help to do a lot of decison making on their own. I was very seldom questioned by any of my employees, and I let them take a very active roll in what they were doing. Without my employees my business would not have existed. My mother knew very little about the operational part of the business, other than the office work. I would often question why we were so poor in collecting money owed to us. She would question my questioning.

I am now retired. I very often question myself as to why I am so inefficient in using my time.


Sandy

[DavidK]

Computer stuff. Architect of C# solutions based on Microsoft Project at the moment, but have worked in many languages (I favour working on a Unix platform), and on many types of project (football sites, portals, crm, music industry, etc).

I have resisted moves to management my entire career, and have never chased money... I am just very good at the tech stuff, and my life is relaxing mostly because I don't write any cause of stress into my work.

[pdonk]

Municipal land use planner, EVERYONE knows my job better than i do, and people are quite vocal in telling me this. 10 years experience.

In my profession as long as everyone is upset at you, you must be doing the right thing.

[Sandy]

Municipal land use planner, EVERYONE knows my job better than i do, and people are quite vocal in telling me this. 10 years experience.

In my profession as long as everyone is upset at you, you must be doing the right thing.

Now that is a job in which absolutely every decision that you make must be questioned, often very emotionally. You have a tough job indeed. You have to be wrong, no matter what you do.


Sandy

PS- Why did you decide to make those 10 acres into a park instead of a nuclear waste dump as I suggested?? You don't have a clue as to what you are doing. I am going to get you fired!! :) :)

[1centaur]

The world is full of people less competent and less motivated than would be ideal. Managers and/or customers who do not push and question to find out if people are doing all they could are going to get way less than they should, period, in the aggregate.

When I lived in California I found most people pretty competent most of the time, but had a boss move from Massachusetts who questioned everything I did until it it became obvious he was wasting his time (yet even that process sharpened me up). Then I moved to Massachusetts and understood everything - I am amazed how many times I ask a service person a question and the first and quick answer is completely wrong and confidently given. I have developed a philosophy which is ridiculously true for how stupid it sounds: the first answer in Massachusetts is always wrong.

Was it John Stuart Mill who thought it was important always to be questioned in order to keep one's philosophy sharp? While I know there are dumb questioners out there, I don't understand the attitude that people should NOT question professionals. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. Do all these professionals not question others?

Just had a fight yesterday with our school system. Math teacher did not hand back a two-week-old section test until the day before the final, leaving the kids no time to understand what they got wrong before the biggest test of the year. Asked for an extra day to prepare and the entire administration just blindly assured us that the teacher works hard (!!) and must have prepared the kids. Basic feedback loop broken and the "professionals" don't get it. Of course we question.

[stevep]

i sell bike shiite to a few members as well as a lot of non members.
could be worse than this.
taught for awhile years ago...left and started 2 bike companies... sold both but still selling.
been good to me

[keno]

offers criticism possibilities I thought could not have been exceeded by those of my lawyering days. It's quite an experience to be told that my calculations of earnings to be made public couldn't possibly have been correct, especially since the CEO had reasons why they had to be higher. Having the SEC, jail, and my employment in the balance when putting forth my will dos and won't dos causes not only anger but puckering also.

keno

[bostondrunk]

15 years in IT: UNIX, 'Doze, client/server networking and systems management.

:confused:

me <burp> UNIX <burp> too <burp> bro imho atmo
i live for chmod 666 rm * grep ottrott *bumbletard*
:beer:

[TimB]

Well, I do software support (8+ years) so my job is to answer questions.

Caller: I can't print from XYZ application.
Me: Can you print from any application?
Caller: I haven't tried any other application.
Me: Well, what happens when you try to print from XYZ?
Caller: Nothing, it's just quiet.
Me: Quiet?
Caller: Yes, it's a big printer, so it usually makes noise when it prints.
Me: Is the printer turned on?
Caller: You mean you have to turn on the printer?

And so it goes.

[catulle]

Hell is others (JP Sartre). I suck off the evil system and use it to my advantage. I buy stock from companies and let the greedy little devils work for me, iirc, atmo. No one talks back now. But I used to get a lot of lip when I first started working as a shrink in a US Army loony bin, and then in advertising, and then in one of the largest corporations in the world, and then from clients of my own. No more lip, bubba. Got to do the judo thing and use your enemy's strength in your favor, atmo. Too many people hungry in the world to be fretting about some annal retentive Hermes clad chipmunk, atmo.

[atmo]

Too many people hungry in the world to be fretting about some annal retentive Hermes clad chipmunk, atmo.


but their scarves are to-die-for atmo.

[catulle]

but their scarves are to-die-for atmo.

I bet Page 3's Keeley Hazell would love one of them, atmo.

[atmo]

I bet Page 3's Keeley Hazell would love one of them, atmo.
well thank you google atmo.

[Smiley]

Bike fit consultant over 8 years and ofcourse the peanut gallery thinks I am without brains ..... going to lower and lengthen my stem now :)

[OldDog]

I used to have a sucessful manufacturing business. Then two years ago I found the Serotta forum. I lurked there 24/7, became part of the wall so to speak. Paid no attention to my business and it went under. Nowadays I hang on the corner of the town square in a wagon, selling spoke nipples, brass ones, aluminum ones, ti ones, colored ones...business is slow. People constantly tell me to sell valve stems too, but I pay no attention. And I still lurk on that forum from my laptop when I can get my battery charged. Life is good.

[Kevan]

be an auditor. Regardless of my wonderful charms, people practical hate my guts...

Started as a management consultant many moons ago and rolled over to internal auditing just after 9/11, for a major energy trading firm. No... not Enron!

Healthy dose of pressure and very sophisticated business keeps us bean counters busy. Oh, and SOX SUX! (Not really.)

[mflaherty37]

I a egnlish professor. sometime peoples think i dunno what i doing. this very frusturation.

[CNY rider]

Half the fittings I do are just listening to people tell me where they want to be or what they think is going to be comfortable. They don't do that with their doctors or lawyers, but the idiot at the bike shop???

Au contraire......

I take care of patients with cancer. I do it every single day, all day long. I've been in practice in one form or another since I graduated medical school in 1994, and I've specialized in Oncology since 1998. I would estimate I spend an hour a night after work reading journals and reviews, and I attend a couple of educational conferences each year. So why is it that when someone gets cancer, their cousin's in laws next door neighbor goes on the Internet, prints out some drivel, and then is struck dumb when I inform them that we don't actually do things that way. I have no problem explaining why we are doing what we're doing, and what the data is on doing it. For some people though, that's just never enough. They're sure that there's someone better out there they should be seeing, or that we really have some better treatments, we just happen to be withhoding it from them.

Why do I keep going back? Because the other 98% of patients make it worth it. ;)

[atmo]

I a egnlish professor. sometime peoples think i dunno what i doing. this very frusturation.


big talker you.
you wanna know frustration?
i can't tell the difference between
zero and 3mm atmo. try faking that!

[manet]

big talker you.
you wanna know frustration?
i can't tell the difference between
zero and 3mm atmo. try faking that!

hang in there, some are'nt wired to such a level.

[spiderlake]

SOX is your cash cow!! You gotta love a regulation put in place because of accounting firms being handled by accounting firms! ; )

I spent two years as an IT auditor for privacy and security compliance. I hated it and felt that hate you speak of from every department I audited. Thankfully, I found my way back to the operations side of the house.

be an auditor. Regardless of my wonderful charms, people practical hate my guts...

Started as a management consultant many moons ago and rolled over to internal auditing just after 9/11, for a major energy trading firm. No... not Enron!

Healthy dose of pressure and very sophisticated business keeps us bean counters busy. Oh, and SOX SUX! (Not really.)

[flydhest]

Au contraire......

I take care of patients with cancer. I do it every single day, all day long. I've been in practice in one form or another since I graduated medical school in 1994, and I've specialized in Oncology since 1998. I would estimate I spend an hour a night after work reading journals and reviews, and I attend a couple of educational conferences each year. So why is it that when someone gets cancer, their cousin's in laws next door neighbor goes on the Internet, prints out some drivel, and then is struck dumb when I inform them that we don't actually do things that way. I have no problem explaining why we are doing what we're doing, and what the data is on doing it. For some people though, that's just never enough. They're sure that there's someone better out there they should be seeing, or that we really have some better treatments, we just happen to be withhoding it from them.

Why do I keep going back? Because the other 98% of patients make it worth it. ;)

1) Keep in mind that you have many patients, they each have only one life.
2) Keep in mind that while you may be stellar, not all doctors are.
3) My wife is an MD/PhD and also has a serious, chronic disease. She and I are able to filter through info from her doctors--most is good, some is not.
4) Second opinions exist for a reason, suggest that problem patients seek one out if they doubt your qualification ( I don't doubt it, by the way).
5) Most importantly, refer to 2).

[CNY rider]

Fly, all excellent points and well taken.

I don't doubt that people need to be intelligent users of health care. I make frequent use of second opinions from other specialists. I also don't doubt that there are times where I make mistakes. Anyone who says otherwise denies their own humanity.

There is however an evolving segment of society that thinks little or nothing of individual expertise or the value of an experienced practitioner (whether a physician or bike fitter). This seems to correlate with the belief that the Internet is the essential repository of all useful knowledge; if you can look it up on the Internet, then you can become an expert after a couple of hours of googling and reading authoritative sounding statements, usually posted by other self educated and self proclaimed experts.

[Too Tall]

As a lad
Newspaper boy - No lip. Hit the fr. door with a wack they don't talk back.
Mow lawns / shovel snow / shovel horse poop - None had anything negative to say ;)
College Hack -
Landscaping - Nothing but praise...I worked for a Swiss dewd with a PHD!
Painter - TONS of lip...do this do that...sheesh. I'll never work for a painter again.
Bus Driver - Nothing but praise...on time, polite doesn't crash much.
Real World -
Coal Miner - hey, I (cough) used stuff to (cough) explode stuff to move stuff...rocks never give lip. Actually a brutal job and everybody is a tough guy. LOVED IT and left before it killed me.
Geologist Technical Editor - paper has no opinion boring but no lip!
Environmental Regulations - woo woo, tons of kudos for writing skills go figure...no lip.
Comp System Geek (OS2,NovellHell Admin,Unix Admin,Email admin, ) - HORRORS...the worst. Everybody and his dog had strong opinions how to do my job...I'd NEVER want to be lead SA ever ever ever again. Lip 24/7 :rolleyes:
IT Security Officer/ oversight IT contracts / general know it all - Best job ever. No lip everyone wants answers...I give em'.

What I LOVE and sometimes pays
M.Therapist - going on 15 yrs. keeps me sane nothing but kudos LOVE helping people
Amateur cosmetic formulary - actually made $$ formulating cosmetics for small time operations. GREAT fun lots of work and so so with the lip. Customers are super picky and apparently arbitrary :rolleyes: .
Teaching M.Therapy - awesome nothing but good
Coaching - AWESOME nothing but good.
Public Speaking - Fun fun fun shocked I get paid for it!


Bottom line, when I'm working with my hands or teaching I'm happy.

[Chad Engle]

Claims Adjuster, 12 years. If you can believe it, rarely do people like being told their to blame for anything. I would venture a guess that I get second guessed more than most anyone. Seems that each time I meet a new person it's because something unfortunate just happened to them.

I always feel the love, even on this here forum when offering my advice on claims related posts. It's like throwing the flag in a football game, you make one coach mad and one coach happy, whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant.

"What, you mean I'm supposed to watch where I'm going while I eat fries, talk on the phone.....and drive?"

[catulle]

As a lad

Bottom line, never lip when you´re too tall, atmo .

:cool:

[ada@prorider.or]

well basicly bike mechanic
as well cad +cam engineer
also owned a bike shop but stopped that after lots of violance and robbery´s
and my childeren treathed in a robery,
also pointed a gun at my head
so that was the time to stop

now i do lots of research and making thingsthat i like ,
helping people in training .

but then again outsiders always questions your work
i used to you never do it good to other´s they always know
it better

i am a computer freak spent a lot of time on it
too much

[Skrawny]

I am an Internal Med doc and Cardiology Fellow. I have to concur with both CNY and Flydhest. Unfortunately I look a lot younger than my age and often get some disbelief from my patients. I have to echo CNY's frustration; sometimes when an overweight, hypertensive, tobacco-smoking patient with heart disease who doesn’t take any of his medicines, wants to spend the 15 minutes allocated to his outpatient visit teaching me about the miracles of anti-oxidants, the tired, overworked, part of my brain just wants to scream.

Sorry for the vitriolic run-on sentence; I'm tired this AM, and there is too much blood in my caffeine system...
-s

[Climb01742]

i make ads. our clients question what we do not merely daily but hourly. many of their questions are, um, well, uh, ill-advised. but every once in a while they will ask something and it will remind me why staying humble is good. doing a job well is, i think, this balancing act of: believing in your skill but also believing that there is still a boatload to learn. your ego needs to be invested fully while you're creating/doing what you do. but once it's created, you need to take your ego out and see it dispassionately. but it's damn hard to do the ego in/ego out thing. you gotta be connected to what you do, but not too connected. it's gotta be "you" but not too much "you". tough.

[Tom]

I'm a technician. With apologies to the technicians reading this, it ain't a profession. It's got its ups and downs but any job where you can go ride 40 miles before going in is OK. The all nighters for implementations can get on your nerves after a while, especially if you get on a run of them where for a couple of months aside from month end you're working every Saturday night. You also have to learn to live with having to explain running over your window by 10 minutes at 3am on Sunday morning when the activity could have, if you screwed it up, had the place down for the rest of the day.

It also stinks to see an excellent strategy for server consolidation staring you right in the face for years but not being able to get the big boys to move on it. The payoff is in the order of 20s of millions of dollars if we just get the nerve to take the risk and do a proof of concept. That one I have finally just stuck in a little box in the back of my mind and stopped obsessing about it. Maybe they broke my spirit, I don't know.

Oh, yeah, I've been doing this more than 20 years now. That's a frightening thought.

[goonster]

doing a job well is, i think, this balancing act of: believing in your skill but also believing that there is still a boatload to learn.

Excellent insight. :beer:

[Birddog]

Used to be claims adjuster ,many, many years ago. I hated every minute of it, as it seemed like everyone was lying to me at least a little. Then I saw the light and became a Notary Public. I paid off the stamp after about a month and it's been gravy ever since!

Birddog

[atmo]

snipped: our clients question what we do not merely daily but hourly. many of their questions are, um, well, uh, ill-advised. but every once in a while they will ask something and it will remind me why staying humble is good.
i can relate.
snipped: once it's created, you need to take your ego out and see it dispassionately. but it's damn hard to do the ego in/ego out thing. you gotta be connected to what you do, but not too connected. it's gotta be "you" but not too much "you". tough.
one of our neighbors is a progenitor in the conceptual art
movement, and if you ever want to know about many hands
making the work of another, that discipline sure is an
example. i often wonder(ed) about how a name can get
all that money and recognition simply by making a sketch
and/or delegating tasks to subcontractors, yet knowing about
this artist and his ways somehow answers all my questions.
i get the feeling that the sees his "art" as complete the moment
the idea hits the lead pencil, and whatever happens on the
wall, the canvas, or in the making of the sculpted piece lives
a life apart. from listening to him speak and knowing his assistants,
i've gleened that staying detached is often the best way to put
all of yourself into your work. and then you move on.

[jmewkill]

I've been a housedad. To my three young girls I'm transportation, cook, and the guy who says no a lot.

At least I'm one step above the neutered aging dog.

[BigDaddySmooth]

I am an Internal Med doc and Cardiology Fellow. I have to concur with both CNY and Flydhest. Unfortunately I look a lot younger than my age and often get some disbelief from my patients. I have to echo CNY's frustration; sometimes when an overweight, hypertensive, tobacco-smoking patient with heart disease who doesn’t take any of his medicines, wants to spend the 15 minutes allocated to his outpatient visit teaching me about the miracles of anti-oxidants, the tired, overworked, part of my brain just wants to scream.

Sorry for the vitriolic run-on sentence; I'm tired this AM, and there is too much blood in my caffeine system...
-s

Doc,
I work in an Internal Medicine Clinic at a military facility. Our "clientele" can be extremely demanding/challenging. After-all, their care is free and many take full advantage of the "entitlement"...to the point of challenging the staff to order a brain MRI because he/she woke up that AM w/ a HA. Or, the retired 3-star general who drives 200 miles to get his free baby ASA. Or, the multiple co-morbidity patient who wants to do nothing to help himself and just expects to get fixed. I don't know how many times I've been yelled at...many more times compared to hearing a "thank you." Unfortunately, it is the few that taint the overall picture. So it goes... :crap:

[rePhil]

Started out as a Fleet mechanic working on Bakery trucks. I quickly learned that folks depended on me to do my job so they could earn a living too.

Then after a move to Florida to a ASE auto tech.

Then onto the Marine industry. Two years as a factory test driver. Eight hours a day driving a boat. While there I switched to marketing and then photography.All I can say about this part of my life is WOW. I spent a bit over 20 years at that. It was during this time I went from racing anything with a motor and started cycling.

These days I say I am semi retired and work at a special needs school. Some medically fragile, autistic, downs, and who know what else...along with ESE behaviour kids.

I have had a great run.

[stevep]

hey, while you're sitting in traffic with 6 screaming kids..the aging, neutered dog is sitting on the front lawn snapping at bees...who's got it better?
as i look at my aging dog out the window.

[djg]

Hell is others (JP Sartre). I used to get a lot of lip when I first started working as a shrink in a US Army loony bin... Too many people hungry in the world to be fretting about some annal retentive Hermes clad chipmunk, atmo.

I thought that Hermes was just for the Air Force.

[dbrk]

I've been a University professor in a humanities subject for more than 20 years now. People say to me all the time, "You must learn so much from your students." The honest answer is...no. At 40K+ a year for this sort of education you are not paying for professional scholars to be learning from undergraduates. I suppose we could debate what "learning from students" means but it should not be mistaken for thinking they are dumb (they are not) or just lazy (they often are). Rather, it's simply a matter of content and subject. It helps that my subject is so far off the beaten path and the stakes so low that no one _should_ be up to my speed. I get paid to know the darnest things. It's not, say, organic chemistry where graduate students are supposed to (and often do) surpass their teachers. As far as "lessons in life" go, well, times change but college students are still mostly 18-22 years old where I teach and that about says it all. Love and lust, mild debauchery, wasted time, and the usual level of decision-making prowess (little): we all remember that, right? I'm _still_ there, that's how come I know how little I learn from them about life lessons. Don't mistake me: I do love the little villians and I am committed to helping them however I can, but learning from them? Nahhh. Mostly I carry on conversations with about three other people in my subject and read books that no one cares about or has read in, say, the last thousand or so years.

I also teach grown-ups about yoga and its complex histories and forms. What I learn from them has nothing to do with my subject/profession. In truth, they are usually no better informed than my undergraduates regarding the subject and have a harder time learning afresh (though they are often more motivated, for personal reasons). I have so much to learn in life and one of the features of having a certain proficiency in my subject is that I know how little I know about nearly everything else. Thank goodness.

dbrk

[Marco]

Au contraire......

I take care of patients with cancer. I do it every single day, all day long. I've been in practice in one form or another since I graduated medical school in 1994, and I've specialized in Oncology since 1998. I would estimate I spend an hour a night after work reading journals and reviews, and I attend a couple of educational conferences each year. So why is it that when someone gets cancer, their cousin's in laws next door neighbor goes on the Internet, prints out some drivel, and then is struck dumb when I inform them that we don't actually do things that way. I have no problem explaining why we are doing what we're doing, and what the data is on doing it. For some people though, that's just never enough. They're sure that there's someone better out there they should be seeing, or that we really have some better treatments, we just happen to be withhoding it from them.


CNY:

I read this and your follow up post. I think that we are on the same page but here is my experience:

A relative was diagnosed with a brain tumor and in doing our research (i.e. utilizing the web to get to the journal articles) we discovered who the leaders in that specialty were. The problem was that after face to face interviews with those oncologists at three of the leading centers in the country we heard three different opinions about how to treat the tumor. That is where non-Docs like Fly and I (although I don't really mean to speak for Fly) find the value in seeking second opinions and self advocating to make sure that the most appropriate treatment is utilized given the circumstances of our personal situation.

By the way, even a lay person like I could see that there were a number of serious quaks out in cyber land with essentially claims of miracle cures. That is scary stuff.

Be Well

[catulle]

one of our neighbors is a progenitor in the conceptual art
movement, .

Excuse me, but we don't have any of them where I live, atmo. I gleen from what you write that he is paid to come up with the idea of a painting and someone else does the painting? Or sculpture and so on? Wow, it kind'a makes sense. Interesting to see how specialized Art has become; if what I'm imagining is correct, of course.

[nick0137]

Barrister. Pompous, ego-driven, courtroom show offs, the lot of us.

Except that virtually every time I go to court I have one of those "Oh, that's what you've been going on about" moments as my opponent questions my case and explains his case. Just never been able to see his point before but oral argument teases it out and I think "Oh ****. That's a good point". That's a true leveller.

And even when that doesn't happen you've got some judge who snipes and snarls, carps and criticises, objects and overrules. The result? Well, the result for me is an overly-healthy dose of self-doubt. Obviously, it gets covered up so that, elegant-swan-like, I glide gracefully to forensic disaster.....

[atmo]

Excuse me, but we don't have any of them where I live, atmo. I gleen from what you write that he is paid to come up with the idea of a painting and someone else does the painting? Or sculpture and so on? Wow, it kind'a makes sense. Interesting to see how specialized Art has become; if what I'm imagining is correct, of course.

the cliffs notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_art) atmo

[catulle]

the cliffs notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_art) atmo

I should've known better. So it all started with a urinal basin, jeeez. Seriously now, thanks, I just learned something.

[Mud]

I was a CFO of a major not for profit. When 9/11 happened and contributions dried up someone had to go to the funding agencies who owed us money and be a pest. I was the designated pest which I am good at. Of course the agencies get POed so I took the blame for 9/11 and everything else. The agencies threatened not to give anymore money if I kept asking. I probably should have sued but lawsuits take on a life of their own and I still wanted to live mine. I am semi retired, work in a LBS and am a lot happier if somewhat poorer.

[Skrawny]

I should've known better. So it all started with a urinal basin, jeeez. Seriously now, thanks, I just learned something.

See, that's what you get for questioning! ;)
-s

PS- it was new to me too.

[ti_boi]

I am an Art Teacher....Public Schools, Northern New Jersey. Got my Masters in 1992, Double major, Fine Art and Education in Florida. At that time FL was going through a real crisis in education and laid off everyone teaching for 3 years or less. I went into the burgeoning field of technology equipment sales. Spent 11 years chasing the brass ring with tech firms large and small. Trained in sales by IBM, worked for two IPOs, won deals and lost deals...pulled rabbits out of hats. Was a hero and a zero....but now I work with little kids and I love it-- today is the last day of school.

I will be 'off' for about 16 weeks during which time I hope to complete some creative work of my own--I draw, paint, and write/record music....I will spend quality time with my 2 year-old daughter, my two elderly terriers, and lovely wife of 10 years. I am drawn to self-expression in many forms. I love the world of ideas. I enjoy art in all of its incarnations. Especially the ways in which creative people document their lives and soldify their ideas. Time is the most important commodity that any of us have, IMHO. I also ride a Serotta. Life is good.


"The Art Teacher on the Last Day of School"

[weisan]

This is on track in becoming the "B-E-S-T" thread in the history of this forum, if I may.

sorry to intrude....back to where I come from.

[BoulderGeek]

So many excellent stories.

They reaffirm my need to get off of the technology treadmill. I still like Linux and OS X, though. :-/

Ti_Boi, will this summer's break afford you the opportunity to shave those Fred legs? :D I'm kidding; I kid the Freds.

Still searching for relevance coupled with the paycheck that lets me keep the house and toys.

:rolleyes:

[Climb01742]

Still searching for relevance coupled with the paycheck that lets me keep the house and toys.

ah, there's the rub. meaning and money aren't often connected. but i chose the boat i'm in. every time i complain about the frustrations of what it do, i remind myself that no one is making do it except me. my own desires keep me doing what i do.

[Skrawny]

Late at night, when I am awake on call, I often think back to the days when I was a theater major in college; how different things would be...
-s

[tbushnel]

Good thread. It is always interesting to learn what other people do for a living, and about their experiences in that role. Just to weigh in myself, I am a neurologist and a clinical research fellow. I am spending time learning more about Dementia and Sleep Disorders. Good times.
Cheers.
Ted.

[bostondrunk]

I've been a University professor in a humanities subject for more than 20 years now. People say to me all the time, "You must learn so much from your students." The honest answer is...no. At 40K+ a year for this sort of education you are not paying for professional scholars to be learning from undergraduates. I suppose we could debate what "learning from students" means but it should not be mistaken for thinking they are dumb (they are not) or just lazy (they often are). Rather, it's simply a matter of content and subject. It helps that my subject is so far off the beaten path and the stakes so low that no one _should_ be up to my speed. I get paid to know the darnest things. It's not, say, organic chemistry where graduate students are supposed to (and often do) surpass their teachers. As far as "lessons in life" go, well, times change but college students are still mostly 18-22 years old where I teach and that about says it all. Love and lust, mild debauchery, wasted time, and the usual level of decision-making prowess (little): we all remember that, right? I'm _still_ there, that's how come I know how little I learn from them about life lessons. Don't mistake me: I do love the little villians and I am committed to helping them however I can, but learning from them? Nahhh. Mostly I carry on conversations with about three other people in my subject and read books that no one cares about or has read in, say, the last thousand or so years.

I also teach grown-ups about yoga and its complex histories and forms. What I learn from them has nothing to do with my subject/profession. In truth, they are usually no better informed than my undergraduates regarding the subject and have a harder time learning afresh (though they are often more motivated, for personal reasons). I have so much to learn in life and one of the features of having a certain proficiency in my subject is that I know how little I know about nearly everything else. Thank goodness.

dbrk

I'll teach you UNIX if you'll teach me the meaning of life.....:)
:beer:

[saab2000]

Airline pilot. Great job. Bad industry. Very bad industry. Always hearing complaints about how labor kills the industry by their high costs. Safety ain't free. Reliability ain't free.

Love the flying, hate the lifestyle. Always tired. Living out of suitcases. The best hotels are never as good as home. Misunderstood by the public. Underpaid. 16 hour days legal (and last week I had one, think that's safe? Think again.)

+ Very satisfying work when it all comes together.
+ Challenging to always be the best.
+ Love to serve people and see them happy.
+ The disproportionate amount of 'talent' in Wilmington, NC and the fact that we layover there frequently!!! :D

- Flying the Northeast Corridor from about Richmond, VA to Boston, MA is the toughest in the country. Bad weather and overloaded ATC.
- Hearing people complain about why we won't take off into thunderstorms when the plane in front of us does.
- People commenting that the automation and technology does our work for us. Technology does not replace the human factor and is no substitute for competence and preparation.
- People complaining about the connecting time when we arrive EARLY!!! Besides, they are the ones who booked online to save $2.47 and now have to make two connections instead of booking direct.

[pbbob]

working 30 hours a week and getting full benefits makes being a nurse practitioner in a nursing home/sub-acute facility tolerable. more time to ride.
it's a tough business with all the different agency inspectors on all levels, city, state, county, feds.
and then they threw medicare d into the mix.
medicare D, the first republican pro choice plan.

[SoCalSteve]

Airline pilot. Great job. Bad industry. Very bad industry. Always hearing complaints about how labor kills the industry by their high costs. Safety ain't free. Reliability ain't free.

Love the flying, hate the lifestyle. Always tired. Living out of suitcases. The best hotels are never as good as home. Misunderstood by the public. Underpaid. 16 hour days legal (and last week I had one, think that's safe? Think again.)
+ Very satisfying work when it all comes together.
+ Challenging to always be the best.
+ Love to serve people and see them happy.
+ The disproportionate amount of 'talent' in Wilmington, NC and the fact that we layover there frequently!!! :D

- Flying the Northeast Corridor from about Richmond, VA to Boston, MA is the toughest in the country. Bad weather and overloaded ATC.
- Hearing people complain about why we won't take off into thunderstorms when the plane in front of us does.
- People commenting that the automation and technology does our work for us. Technology does not replace the human factor and is no substitute for competence and preparation.
- People complaining about the connecting time when we arrive EARLY!!! Besides, they are the ones who booked online to save $2.47 and now have to make two connections instead of booking direct.

How much time off do you get (legally) after working a 16 hour shift?

In my industry, it is not uncommon for a driver to work a 16-20 hour day and then have 8 hours off (legal) and go back on shift for another 16-20 hours. But, they are not transporting people in an aircraft, mostly equipment and
people in 4 to 18 wheel vehicles (on the ground).

And yes, it is legal! Weird, huh?

Steve

PS: Being that its a Union job and that overtime kicks in after 8 hours and goes to 2 1/2 times wage after 14 hours, the drivers dont seem to mind these long *** hours.

[Fixed]

bro slave nobody cares what i think ...if anything gets lost it's my fault.
I serve all who ask I am a servant . after 16 years I know how to do it
cheers

[67-59]

[QUOTE=Ti DesignsThey don't do that with their doctors or lawyers, but the idiot at the bike shop???[/QUOTE]

Actually, they DO do that with doctors and lawyers nowadays. I am a lawyer, and I ALWAYS have clients or other non-lawyers telling me they understand this law or that better than I do. And then when we start talking the details....

And I work with lots of docs, and they too are constantly hearing the same from their patients. It seems to be a combination of the internet and pharmaceutical advertising that have patients knowing just enough to be dangerous. They come in telling the doc that "I need to take that little purple pill," thinking that it never even occurred to the doc. Often, it did occur to the doc, but there are very good reasons for not prescribing it. Problem is, that discussion often takes up most of the alloted time for the appointment....

[pdonk]

PS- Why did you decide to make those 10 acres into a park instead of a nuclear waste dump as I suggested?? You don't have a clue as to what you are doing. I am going to get you fired!! :) :)

Rumour has it that a tuna fish sandwich processing plant was to go in next door, but Kevan complained that it would block his view of your backyard, would impact the children, traffic and land values in the neighbourhood.

[97CSI]

Spent 30 years as an engineer in the semiconductor processing field. That was long enough that no one told me what to do at the end other than the guy at the top. Last thing he told me was.......here's your bonus, your severance and your retirement package. Was wonderul. :banana:

But, good things never last. We moved to the shore and my wife continued to teach. She wasn't ready for retirement (probably figured it would be too much 'togetherness' :D ). And that was a problem.......which she solved by landing me a job teaching HS math. Easy enough, but kids are very different today. Most see no advantage in knowing anything. Don't understand the value of an education and an old fart like me has nothing useful for them to learn. Just ask.

Oh, well. 1.5 years to go and I'll have a second retirement. And then I will only work when I want to doing what I want to. Bike sales/wrenching at $10/hr sounds good. And, I can weld/braze. Do just enough to pay for my bike/stereo/travel excesses.

[onekgguy]

Air Traffic Controller for 24 years with the FAA working at Minneapolis Center. I love the job but not all that happy with management types who never had the nerve to work planes and quickly exited the trenches for a supervisor position where they could lead others in doing a job they couldn't.

The most rewarding but stressful part of the job is training another controller. It's very gratifying when you're working with somebody and you watch them progress through the phases of training. It's stressful because to do the training right you have to allow the trainee to get into situations which you would rather avoid. Often times trainers will step in too soon and the trainee doesn't really comprehend the full impact of what might have been. I find it best to allow them to learn from their mistakes and work out of a difficult situation rather than saving them from it.

I'll be eligible to retire in less than a year but I intend to stay until I'm forced to retire at age 56, in another 7 years.

Kevin

[67-59]

Was it John Stuart Mill who thought it was important always to be questioned in order to keep one's philosophy sharp? While I know there are dumb questioners out there, I don't understand the attitude that people should NOT question professionals. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. Do all these professionals not question others?

You make a good point that raises a critical distinction. I don't oppose being questioned ("Are you sure that's right?") and agree that it often is appropriate. Indeed, as Mill observed, that process likely improves our skills (and the answers we give). The problem I have is when you give the answer, and the questioner still tries to convince you that "you must be wrong." The reality in most cases is that you aren't wrong, but the questioner would like you to be because they don't like the answer.

[Frog Hair]

The eternal search for greener grasses, as we peer over our fences into our neighbors yard...

My own job has lead me to believe on more than one occassion that the world was filled with bast@rds and people so consumed with themselves that they had long ago tossed their soul aside for immediate material satisfaction. It took a lot of reconditioning to understand otherwise. Like the cancer doc, those 2% sure can be noisy and seem like a lot more than they are.
There is a quote somewhere to the effect of "business would be great if it were not for the customers."
So I have to ask myself when I am out an playing the role of the customer - did I just treat that guy like I am so often treated. Am I questioning their authority and making their life hell too?

Google...its a great thing when we want instant answers.
Google...its a nightmare when some guy shows up on at my door ready to stick me in the sewer because he has "Google Degree" on my profession...

Its all just part of the colored bricks in the road. :rolleyes:

[catulle]

. I am spending time learning more about Dementia and Sleep Disorders. Good times. Cheers. Ted.

Oh, I get it. That's what you do here, ain't it, atmo?

[catulle]

I'll teach you UNIX if you'll teach me the meaning of life.....:) :beer:

Simple, dude. Just listen to Mr. Natural, atmo...

[Skrawny]

The most rewarding but stressful part of the job is training another controller. It's very gratifying when you're working with somebody and you watch them progress through the phases of training. It's stressful because to do the training right you have to allow the trainee to get into situations which you would rather avoid. Often times trainers will step in too soon and the trainee doesn't really comprehend the full impact of what might have been. I find it best to allow them to learn from their mistakes and work out of a difficult situation rather than saving them from it.

Kevin

I train newbie physicians & it's very similar. Air traffic control and medicine are bad places to make mistakes, but it is human nature & how we learn...

Re: work hour restrictions
MDs in training are the only ones with hour restrictions, they:
May not average more than 80hrs/wk
Must have at least 24hrs off/week
May not be in hospital for more than 24hrs at a time +6hrs of non patient care

-s

[pbbob]

Air Traffic Controller for 24 years with the FAA working at Minneapolis Center. I love the job but not all that happy with management types who never had the nerve to work planes and quickly exited the trenches for a supervisor position where they could lead others in doing a job they couldn't.

The most rewarding but stressful part of the job is training another controller. It's very gratifying when you're working with somebody and you watch them progress through the phases of training. It's stressful because to do the training right you have to allow the trainee to get into situations which you would rather avoid. Often times trainers will step in too soon and the trainee doesn't really comprehend the full impact of what might have been. I find it best to allow them to learn from their mistakes and work out of a difficult situation rather than saving them from it.

I'll be eligible to retire in less than a year but I intend to stay until I'm forced to retire at age 56, in another 7 years.

Kevin
my father retired as an air route controller at indy center before the strike at age 50. if he had to wait till age 56 he would have exploded. turned down big management positions to continue work in the trenches.

bob, just a worker bee

[saab2000]

Air Traffic Controller for 24 years with the FAA working at Minneapolis Center. I love the job but not all that happy with management types who never had the nerve to work planes and quickly exited the trenches for a supervisor position where they could lead others in doing a job they couldn't.


Kevin

Sounds like airline management too!!!! Our base manager in PHL took the easy way out. Talks like a pilot and flew the line for about 3 months. Resentment among the pilots? Hmmmmm..... let me think.

Welcome to the Forum! I once met a Center controller.

Someday I'm gonna miss 3 calls and then reply, 'Sorry. Say again. I was on the land line'!!! New York Center and PHL ground and Clearance Delivery are notorious for not listening!!! I guess pilots are no better though.

Love Mini Center though. I live here now in MSP, but am moving soon. Love flying here in the Midwest.

The two most under-appreciated, critical jobs in aviation are: Mechanic and Air Traffic Controller.

[Tom]

Flying through Newark on the guys that have Newark as a hub (or did) on a propeller craft making connection to BWI with a bunch of other guys from work. We get on and we all notice this big oily wet spot under the plane. Our pilot does the walk around and stops and looks at it. We wait, a mechanical crew shows up, they all look at it, the pilot gets on and announces we're changing aircraft. We all start filing off, some guy (not of my group) starts complaining. I'm not kidding. One of my colleagues turns, looks at the guy and says "Dude, if the pilot won't ride in it, I'm with him!" The guy quieted down...

[saab2000]

Flying through Newark on the guys that have Newark as a hub (or did) on a propeller craft making connection to BWI with a bunch of other guys from work. We get on and we all notice this big oily wet spot under the plane. Our pilot does the walk around and stops and looks at it. We wait, a mechanical crew shows up, they all look at it, the pilot gets on and announces we're changing aircraft. We all start filing off, some guy (not of my group) starts complaining. I'm not kidding. One of my colleagues turns, looks at the guy and says "Dude, if the pilot won't ride in it, I'm with him!" The guy quieted down...

WORD! It is inconceivable to me sometimes that people complain when safety is put first.

[vaxn8r]

They don't do that with their doctors or lawyers, but the idiot at the bike shop???
Guess again TD. We serve the same clients I gaurantee you.

[tbushnel]

Oh, I get it. That's what you do here, ain't it, atmo?

Just a pilot study for now. If I get funded though, I am going bigtime... multicenter randomized controlled trial. Or something like that.

:banana: :banana:

[tbushnel]

WORD! It is inconceivable to me sometimes that people complain when safety is put first.

Maybe the same people who when driving their car make those crazy unsafe passes on the road. Hum... maybe another study in the works :)

[J.Greene]

I'm a financial advisor. I have never been anything else. I have been recognized in my field for the quality of advice I give. With that said, everyone with $1000 and 30 days experience with an e-trade account claims to know more than I do.

JG,
who is planning the second stage of his working life

[telenick]

I'm an IT project manager within the ski industry. I value the lift that is a 100 yards from my office. I especially value the the times when there is fresh snow and that lift is running. I value my co-workers and the relationship we all have with one another. I value the scenery every day that I've been doing this ...12 years and running. I value not living in the city and not working for IBM anymore. It got to a certain point where I had to figure out what I valued most. Now you know. How 'bout you?

[Fixed]

bro i'm sitting under a tree in a wonderful downtown park with my powerbook and a cell phone and my bike that's my office part of the day waiting for the boss's orders .
cheers

[BoulderGeek]

I'm an IT project manager within the ski industry. I value the lift that is a 100 yards from my office. I especially value the the times when there is fresh snow and that lift is running. I value my co-workers and the relationship we all have with one another. I value the scenery every day that I've been doing this ...12 years and running. I value not living in the city and not working for IBM anymore. It got to a certain point where I had to figure out what I valued most. Now you know. How 'bout you?

I had as close to a job for life as is possible these days, working for the city/county government in one of the truly great ski towns in America. I identify so much with what you are saying.

I left to take what I thought at the time was a big contract in DC. 3x salary boost. Still not that much in the grand scheme.

So, I gave my job to someone else and moved on. I frequently think about how my life would have been different had I not sold myself for a quick buck.

But, I did just take my Serotta out for an hour on a sunny 73F day in Colorado. So, I guess it could all be far worse.

Oh, yeah, I _am_ working for IBM, while wearing cycling clothes. ;)

You dudes hiring Solaris/Linux/Cisco dweebs? :D

[ERDR]

as the other docs have inferred, we work in a 24/7 profession. bad hours, irregular sleep, missed b-days, holidays etc. nearly 40% of the people i see/treat either don't pay or are on the government's dime. with malpractice what it is, i take a loss or it actually costs me money to see most of that sub-set. the "you owe me" either actually stated or otherwise implied tends to wear one down. it is the rare thank-you that keeps you going.
enough whining, sorry.
we have a name for our patients that come in with their internet self diagnostic work up. mr. web-md. now if the web-md internet site could only write their vicodin prescription.
s.

[swoop]

i am a conceptual artist that did production design for tv commercials to support that career that ended up with a docotrate of clinical psychology.

i have a strong dislike of omnipotent therapsts like dr. phil. my whole job is about tolerating the anxiety that comes from sitting in uncertainty. it's the holding on to right and wrong that gets in the way. my patients let me know if i'm right or wrong...and we just work from there.

i quit artmaking because i didn't like the collectors and the lame critics deciding what was right or wrong (because their standards were self-serving), and i stopped designing sets because i couldn't do any more design for the clients who had no idea what was right or wrong but asserted themselves none the less. and i get exasperated here when i write something and get told i'm wrong when...someone going there just means they don't get the point.
*laughs* right?
:banana:

[stevep]

I'm an IT project manager within the ski industry. I value the lift that is a 100 yards from my office. I especially value the the times when there is fresh snow and that lift is running. I value my co-workers and the relationship we all have with one another. I value the scenery every day that I've been doing this ...12 years and running. I value not living in the city and not working for IBM anymore. It got to a certain point where I had to figure out what I valued most. Now you know. How 'bout you?

get a job telenick, get a job and suffer some...
thats me talking... i never said i had it bad... but it does sound cold out there for at least part of the year!

[Skrawny]

i am a conceptual artist that did production design for tv commercials to support that career that ended up with a docotrate of clinical psychology.

i have a strong dislike of omnipotent therapsts like dr. phil. my whole job is about tolerating the anxiety that comes from sitting in uncertainty. it's the holding on to right and wrong that gets in the way. my patients let me know if i'm right or wrong...and we just work from there.

i quit artmaking because i didn't like the collectors and the lame critics deciding what was right or wrong (because their standards were self-serving), and i stopped designing sets because i couldn't do any more design for the clients who had no idea what was right or wrong but asserted themselves none the less. and i get exasperated here when i write something and get told i'm wrong when...someone going there just means they don't get the point.
*laughs* right?
:banana:

WRONG! :argue:
;)
-s

[72gmc]

Creative director for a small studio in a big agency. I'm the content lead, my co-creative director is the art lead. From climbo to swoop to anyone else who talked about working in a creative capacity, many of my daily realities have been listed.

I do enjoy what I do. It's not the noblest of causes, but I get to ride to work, exercise my brain, and take good care of the people in my life.

Long, long ago I was a producer/writer/reporter in radio. Lousy hours, great fun. If there was any money in it I might still be there... glad I'm not!

[swoop]

WRONG! :argue:
;)
-s
no.. you're wrong! i'm right. campy.. i mean shimano, i mean sram, i mean steel is real, ti is not real, and plastic is carbon. 10 speed cogsets. argh.

[Fixed]

no.. you're wrong! i'm right. campy.. i mean shimano, i mean sram, i mean steel is real, ti is not real, and plastic is carbon. 10 speed cogsets. argh.
bro when did this all begin?

cheers

[swoop]

bro when did this all begin?

cheers

we'll.. if you believe in developmental theory it's called 'splitting' and it's how an infant organizes their internal experience of the mother.. as either all good (fulfilling a need) or all bad (where's my milk, beootch?).

but if you don't believe in developmental psych.. i blame illegal immigrants.



;)

[Tom]

we'll.. if you believe in developmental theory it's called 'splitting' and it's how an infant organizes their internal experience of the mother.. as either all good (fulfilling a need) or all bad (where's my milk?).

but if you don't believe in developmental psych.. i blame illegal immigrants.



;)

Interesting. Some people get past that and some people stay there and everything remains all good or all bad? I think I work with some of them, if that's true...

[swoop]

Interesting. Some people get past that and some people stay there and everything remains all good or all bad? I think I work with some of them, if that's true...

it's called black and white thinking in adults and is one of the primary symptoms of boderline personality disorder (but the symptom isnotthe disorder). be afraid. all pathologies are really just infantile defense mechanism gone wrong or that somehow got overdeveloped (all this is complex and also is equally biological too.. it's very nurture/nature).

but yeah.. the problem with black and white thinking is that it involves distorting reality to make everything either good or bad. it's the distortions that become dangerous. think current geopolitics for example. so the treatment always involves examining the distortions (if the ego strentgh is developed enough)and confronting them with all the pretty shades of grey. if they can't hang with that we just get them a nice ti bike and a password for rbr.com

okeee.. i gotsa see patients for the rest of the day (had all morning to ride.. yipeee).

[Kahuna]

I manage 24x7 high performance computing operations here (http://www.mhpcc.hpc.mil/about.html).

I could tell you what we do, but then I'd have to kill everyone who reads the forum. :D

BTW, we're hiring.

-K

[vaxn8r]

You haven't been truly kicked in the teeth until you've been sued for $13 Million. I saw a kid in the hosipital 3 years ago, one of 5 MD's invloved and all 5 of us named, not my patient, I just spent an hour with him one Sunday afternoon. We diagnosed him correctly and treated correctly. Initial admitting diagnosis was wrong (which is common, that's part of why you admit someone!) but we figured it out while he was there (very rare presentation of an even rarer disease). We got it right! Unfortunately he had a complication and now has a minor limp, though he (somehow) can still manage playing basketball...this is true!!!

So, after 2 depositions, taking me from my practice, dozens of hours in preparation, hundreds of hours of mental anguish, and a lawsuit beyond my liability limits, I am finally released from the case, name cleared (though no letter of apology for ruining my life)....the case was just settled for $150K for the remaining defendant who didn't want to roll the dice with a jury and an award over his liability limits.

Try that one on for size. There ain't no amount of money that makes any job worth that. I truly did almost quit this year. It's hard to trust anyone after an experience like that.

[ti_boi]

it's called black and white thinking in adults and is one of the primary symptoms of boderline personality disorder (but the symptom isnotthe disorder). be afraid. all pathologies are really just infantile defense mechanism gone wrong or that somehow got overdeveloped (all this is complex and also is equally biological too.. it's very nurture/nature).

but yeah.. the problem with black and white thinking is that it involves distorting reality to make everything either good or bad. it's the distortions that become dangerous. think current geopolitics for example. so the treatment always involves examining the distortions (if the ego strentgh is developed enough)and confronting them with all the pretty shades of grey. if they can't hang with that we just get them a nice ti bike and a password for rbr.com

okeee.. i gotsa see patients for the rest of the day (had all morning to ride.. yipeee).


Wow....I think the submarine just dived captain! *alarm sounds* --

That black and white thinking was always pretty prevalent in my previous life as a salesman. You either won or you lost. You either got paid. Or you did not. The nice thing about working in the world of ideas is that you can bathe in the warm waters of ambivalence. I have found that many people do think along the more dogmatic terms of 'right' and 'wrong'....left and right....bomb em/hug em....on a bad day I can even be heard to grumble....WRONG! (but I say it to myself). :argue:

[cw05]

General Surgery resident and part-time bike mechanic.

[catulle]

it's called black and white thinking in adults and is one of the primary symptoms of boderline personality disorder (but the symptom isnotthe disorder). be afraid. all pathologies are really just infantile defense mechanism gone wrong or that somehow got overdeveloped (all this is complex and also is equally biological too.. it's very nurture/nature)

Many, many years ago, when I worked at the now defunct D.O.D. Corozal Mental Health Center, I heard an argument between a psychiatrist and my boss, Psychlogy PhD (University of Texas at Austin), about how to tend to a crying infant. One argued that the child needed to be nurtured and should be held and comforted. The other said that the crying behavior should not be reinforced, thus, the child should be ignored unless there was a serious reason (life threatening?) for not doing so.

On another occasion, I heard a psychiatrist telling a nurse over coffee that he knew of a colleague who had been able to reproduce in a person every type of behavior by stimulating different parts of the brain. This was back in the early/mid seventies.

Soon after, I flew over the cuckoo's nest and went back to the Greeks and to making money in order to send food to Africa every once in a while, iirc, atmo. I still love Freud, though. Something about the way he holds the cigar, atmo. Oh, and the whole polimorphous pervert thing is too much...!

[ti_boi]

On another occasion, I heard a psychiatrist telling a nurse over coffee that he knew of a colleague who had been able to reproduce in a person every type of behavior by stimulating different parts of the brain. This was back in the early/mid seventies.


Was that before or after they stopped using high voltage and ice picks to disable those frontal lobes? :confused:

[telenick]

I manage 24x7 high performance computing operations here (http://www.mhpcc.hpc.mil/about.html).

I could tell you what we do, but then I'd have to kill everyone who reads the forum. :D

BTW, we're hiring.

-K

My pops was an atmospheric scientist. I think you're computing weather models. Please don't off me. I'm one of the good guys. :)

[tbushnel]

General Surgery resident and part-time bike mechanic.

When do you have time to even look at a bike :D . You have more energy than I ever had. Must be kinda hypomanic or something. :rolleyes:
ted.

[Ginger]

BTW, we're hiring.

-K

No...my black and white thinking says you're not hiring.

Not a single tech writer position listed.
:p

Of course, I s'pose if you threw a rock down a beach full of surfers on the island you'd hit two or three out of work writers now wouldn't you. (It's about the same for Colorado...)

[Ray]

Municipal land use planner, EVERYONE knows my job better than i do, and people are quite vocal in telling me this. 10 years experience.

In my profession as long as everyone is upset at you, you must be doing the right thing.
Uh oh - there's two of us here? I've been doing planning work since the early '80s and the test of sucess is absolutely how equally you manage to pi$$ off all sides in any planning/zoning/transportation project. I work in an area where all municipalities are quite small, so you get the added bonus of very small time politicians whose egos are, believe it or not, larger than most big time politicians (I've worked with a number of those too). I'm doing consulting work on my own now and am trying to focus on bicycle/pedestrian planning, but small zoning contracts are the bread and butter. Its almost never boring.

-Ray

[catulle]

Was that before or after they stopped using high voltage and ice picks to disable those frontal lobes? :confused:

Er, they still do that, iirc, atmo. As a matter of fact, I read in the Colnago catalog or somewhere that electro-shock therapy has become fashionable again. And the ice pick remains quite popular on the CVS catalog, or something.

Seriously now, I don't mean to mock a wonderful profession to which I dedicated many years of ardous study and a few years of long hours in a specialized hospital. But like Swoop mentioned, there are a few too many Dr. Phils who do more harm than good. Our understanding of human behavior remains pretty tentative and we must be aware of our limitations. Sadly, the big bucks go towards war and cigarettes, and little is left for research and so on.

[pdonk]

Try that one on for size. There ain't no amount of money that makes any job worth that. I truly did almost quit this year. It's hard to trust anyone after an experience like that.

Try being named in a lawsuit, when you are a low paid official at a bike race.
Fortunately, our insurance policy and lawyers are very good. This will take a few years to flow through the legal system, not that I totally begrudge someone who was seriously injured and hospitalized from his crash seeking compensation, but it put a good scare into me and made me not want to officiate events anymore.

[atmo]

Sadly, the big bucks go towards war and cigarettes, and little is left for research and so on.
no worries atmo.
i am gonna have dinner with alot of republicans for the next 3 days. :D
any requests/messages?

[pdonk]

Uh oh - there's two of us here?
-Ray

I can tell by your avatar you are in the private sector, us public sector employees can't afford spectrums. ;)

[catulle]

no worries atmo.
i am gonna have dinner with alot of republicans for the next 3 days. :D
any requests/messages?

Hey, I heard that Scarlett just registered as a Republican, do you think they might let me in too, atmo?

[atmo]

Hey, I heard that Scarlett just registered as a Republican, do you think they might let me in too, atmo?
i'm doing that once-a-year thing i told you
about over dinner atmo. by sat i may swear
off using the letter w in any of my texts atmo.
serenity no .

[Bruce H.]

i found this thread so interesting.
I have a position that i love. I actually get paid for doing something i enjoy so much. The only really bad thing is all my clients start off our relationship by telling me "I hate you" well not really you but what you do".
I am a cosmetic dentist. I do what you see on T.V. I am semi retired now but still work 5 days a week. I do get a few screwballs in the office but that is part of dealing with the public.
Bruce H :D

[catulle]

i'm doing that once-a-year thing i told you
about over dinner atmo. by sat i may swear
off using the letter w in any of my texts atmo.
serenity no .

*o*...! You're brave, atmo.

[Ray]

I can tell by your avatar you are in the private sector, us public sector employees can't afford spectrums. ;)
I spent most of my career in the public sector, with a short stint as a consultant years ago and now self-employed as a consultant. I made more money in the public sector than either time in the private sector. My nice bikes are explained by 'effed up priorities - just ask my wife. :beer:

-Ray

[Fixed]

You haven't been truly kicked in the teeth until you've been sued for $13 Million. I saw a kid in the hosipital 3 years ago, one of 5 MD's invloved and all 5 of us named, not my patient, I just spent an hour with him one Sunday afternoon. We diagnosed him correctly and treated correctly. Initial admitting diagnosis was wrong (which is common, that's part of why you admit someone!) but we figured it out while he was there (very rare presentation of an even rarer disease). We got it right! Unfortunately he had a complication and now has a minor limp, though he (somehow) can still manage playing basketball...this is true!!!

So, after 2 depositions, taking me from my practice, dozens of hours in preparation, hundreds of hours of mental anguish, and a lawsuit beyond my liability limits, I am finally released from the case, name cleared (though no letter of apology for ruining my life)....the case was just settled for $150K for the remaining defendant who didn't want to roll the dice with a jury and an award over his liability limits.

Try that one on for size. There ain't no amount of money that makes any job worth that. I truly did almost quit this year. It's hard to trust anyone after an experience like that.
bro I 'm real busy I could use a another bike mess.
the hrs are good and we ride everyday .
cheers

[Ti-Boy]

I'm a trial lawyer. Perhaps soon to be ex-trial lawyer per other thread. I get questioned about everything and from every angle. I literally get judged everyday by either the twelve people too stupid to get off jury duty or by the judge (many of whom are stupid per se). I make my living questioning. While being the questioner is much more satisfying, I welcome being questioned. It keeps one sharp.

[Dekonick]

I train newbie physicians & it's very similar. Air traffic control and medicine are bad places to make mistakes, but it is human nature & how we learn...

Re: work hour restrictions
MDs in training are the only ones with hour restrictions, they:
May not average more than 80hrs/wk
Must have at least 24hrs off/week
May not be in hospital for more than 24hrs at a time +6hrs of non patient care

-s

Someone forgot to tell that to Sweedish hospital where my sister did her residency...

[Dave B]

I teach...5th graders.....public school for the rich....no matter how hard I work......their kid always deserves something extra...or so i am told.


Life fascinates me, my wife (teaches special ed at the same school, we met there) and I are going broke (age 29 and 30 respectively) with a 1 year old. Our parents never taught us about money and putting ourselves through grad school we "charged" everything in our life.

Lawyer told us we make too much for banruptcy, and since collectors were not calling what were we complaining about.

SO here I was a week ago lost thinking about how unfair it is that people around me who lack soooo much also have all this.....stuff. Why don't I have all this stuff. I will never be able to afford a custom Serotta, like a Nove' or better.

There I was working on a grad class I have to take to keep my license that my school district will not pay for when it hit me.


No, I will never make much money teaching elementary kids, maybe I can work to become a professor and do some consulting....wait, that could take awhile.

I get 17 weeks of paid vacation, doen by 3pm outside of soccer season ( i coach) and I get to work with fun kids who actualy think i am cool. I may not be able to afford the good stuff, but as I ride down the road on my sweet cannondale, I get to see the "wealthy" driving to work. I get to be the hero to these yong girls and boys because their dads are never home.

I get to be there for my wife and daughter when they need me, because I can be as rich or poor as the next guy and they see another worth.

Could I run a company, probably, can I argue a case, with out a doubt, can i heal others, every freaking day from 8 to 3!

What ius great about life is that it is fascinating, all of us who take and give crap. For those that heal and those that inform, we can all find a common place ina place like this. We all love to hear noting from our drive train and giggle when we crest that one climb that kicks our buttocks.

Life is a dream we all have, and for each instance when when we get closer to that dream we feel the dream. That feeling is what allows us to put up with others.

Or......

Everyone else besides us are stupid idiots and it is our personal mission to inform every idiot out there that they are wrong! :)

Keep the dream alive!

[SayHey]

My kid's say, 'Dad's a water engineer'. What does that mean? Well, I make the water clean enough to safely drink before it reaches the tap and clean enough to recycle after it goes down the drain. I've been doing this for over 25 years and truly enjoy the creative side of my work.

Now, I'm responsible for two offices where I live so my responsibilities extend more to the business and people side of consulting engineering. Do I enjoy my work? No doubt. Are there days when I feel discouraged? Yep. Do I get questioned and doubted? You bet.

I've occasionally peered over the fence and realized that the 'grass is not always greener'. Someone shared a piece of wisdom with me -- "We make our own weather." I know that may sound naive or Pollyanish, but we get to choose how we react to circumstances. For me at least, there has always been a lot to be thankful for. When I'm down, I'll try to get home and hug my wife and kids and say thanks ...

[Fixed]

say hey maui wowie
cheers bro

[onekgguy]

my father retired as an air route controller at indy center before the strike at age 50. if he had to wait till age 56 he would have exploded. turned down big management positions to continue work in the trenches.

bob, just a worker bee

Bob, I admire people such as your father who were fine with 'just being a controller'. So many in management appear to look down their nose at those who work the boards their entire career. Anybody can become a supervisor but not nearly as many can do what your father did for all those years.

Love Mini Center though. I live here now in MSP, but am moving soon. Love flying here in the Midwest.

Saab...who do you fly for? You can find me working the high altitude sectors over FOD and ONL and the low altitude sectors in Iowa and Nebraska.

Kevin

[swoop]

Many, many years ago, when I worked at the now defunct D.O.D. Corozal Mental Health Center, I heard an argument between a psychiatrist and my boss, Psychlogy PhD (University of Texas at Austin), about how to tend to a crying infant. One argued that the child needed to be nurtured and should be held and comforted. The other said that the crying behavior should not be reinforced, thus, the child should be ignored unless there was a serious reason (life threatening?) for not doing so.

On another occasion, I heard a psychiatrist telling a nurse over coffee that he knew of a colleague who had been able to reproduce in a person every type of behavior by stimulating different parts of the brain. This was back in the early/mid seventies.

Soon after, I flew over the cuckoo's nest and went back to the Greeks and to making money in order to send food to Africa every once in a while, iirc, atmo. I still love Freud, though. Something about the way he holds the cigar, atmo. Oh, and the whole polimorphous pervert thing is too much...!

the correct answer is beat-up the psychiatrist and the psychologist for being irritating arseholes. freud is cool with me.. what's not to like about a coked up dude perving on his mom? besides.. his grandson can paint like a mofo!

[gone]

Spent a number of years designing ASICs and computers of increasing degrees of complexity and size. Went into management which at this particular company rhymed with "dogsh*t" and was held with the same respect. Eventually became VP of engineering. Got into the business side, found I had a talent for it and actually enjoyed it. Grew the business more than 4x in 7 years. Our CEO who didn't understand engineers but desperately wanted to be liked by them would occasionally make pronouncements that we were "an engineering driven company" which some engineers in my organization interpreted to mean that I should listen to their ideas of what products we should build and what features they should have, most of which bore little resemblance to anything people would actually pay money to buy. Became deeply distrustful of the word "cool". Despite the growth of the business, was frequently told by them that I was wrong.

After a number of years, saw a change coming in the industry and in my business in particular. Was told I was wrong by our CEO and board who knew a thousand times less about my business than I did when I tried to convince them we needed to change direction. Predicted change happened pretty much as and when I said it would. Spent several years bailing water from the Titanic with an eyedropper trying to keep the business going. Eventually got tired of travelling (Saab2000: flying 150k miles/year isn't nearly so much fun from the back) and watching what was a completely avoidable decline in my business happen and retired 4 years ago at age 48. Do some occasional consulting jobs and have been offered several full time gigs but would interfere with my other passions. Wating for my wife to retire (two years and 41 days, but who's counting?) so I can play more.

Enjoyed the hell out of it all most of the time. Designing, building and selling useful products is one of life's peak experiences. Least favorite english phrase is "you were right".

[catulle]

I love this place here. Thank you Swoop...! Again, I learn something new. Lucian Freud...

[tch]

but when a national magazine recently named "college professor" as the vocation with the best lifestyle possible, they hit it on the head.
I teach English in a community college. It's as much about changing people's views of themselves and their priorities as it is about sentence construction and Faulkner. Serious, engaging, meaningful work. When I work, I work hard -- often staying up til 11:00 every night of the week grading papers, preparing, etc. But when I am not teaching -- I don't work at all. Something like 16 weeks of vacation to rest, think, engage myself. I don't get paid as much as some people, but more than many, and enough to afford what I need. And, while I do get questioned some, I have years of experience, reputation, and tenure in the institution.
I try not to be too self-satisfied....but I got it good.

[flydhest]

My last contrarian view. In no way do I mean to cast aspersions on this august group. In my professional experience, I have come across a number of people with years upon years of exerperience in their jobs, all with PhDs and yet they deserve wholeheartedly to be questioned. Few if any of them believe they deserve to be questioned, of course. Indeed, often those most vociferously opposed to being questioned are the ones who need it the most. I relish being questioned. It gets tedious if the questioner does not know anything, however, everyone, in my ho, needs to be "kept honest." I fint it is very easy to slip into complacency of "I've been doing this for years, I have X degrees, I do Y to keep up" and think that that makes you infallible.

In being questioned, I get to explain why I'm right, where I might be wrong, how I know what I know, and then foist the onus to the questioner. As a friend's grandmother would say, "It doesn't pay to call someone ignorant, just draw attention to their ignorance."

[Skrawny]

I agree, Fly.
In my career we get quickly defensive when questioned ("who are YOU to question ME, I graduated the 23rd grade?!") perhaps because -as much as we say we are "evidence based" in our decisions- most of them come from gut instincts applied to evidence that doesn't quite fit the patient. We are most often correct but, given the weight of some of the decisions, deep down inside we have some doubt. Being questioned needles at that doubt.

It takes a strong ego, careful wording, and more than a little cache to admit that doubt without loosing trust and respect from the patient. Yes, I know, most of you would say you want to know when there is doubt about a diagnosis/treatment, and all of us MDs should include that information, however -trust me- you are the enlightened few...

Nevertheless, there is nothing to be done about that same 2% of the population that everyone on this thread has had difficulty with: those with the terrible combination of opinionated ignorance.

-s

[tch]

just to clarify, fly: when I spoke of having the luck of not being "questioned" much, I was referring to the kind of unintelligent, self-serving, ego-driven side commentary that often passes for "supervision" these days.

In terms of real questioning -- as in "why should I believe you?", "why should you believe yourself?", "are you really going about this the right way?", "do you really have all the info?" -- I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is necessary and good. I run workshops for teachers, and one of the principles I try to convey is that the very moment you consider yourself infallible, you become an a$$hole.

[ti_boi]

My last contrarian view. In no way do I mean to cast aspersions on this august group. In my professional experience, I have come across a number of people with years upon years of exerperience in their jobs, all with PhDs and yet they deserve wholeheartedly to be questioned. Few if any of them believe they deserve to be questioned, of course. Indeed, often those most vociferously opposed to being questioned are the ones who need it the most. I relish being questioned. It gets tedious if the questioner does not know anything, however, everyone, in my ho, needs to be "kept honest." I fint it is very easy to slip into complacency of "I've been doing this for years, I have X degrees, I do Y to keep up" and think that that makes you infallible.

In being questioned, I get to explain why I'm right, where I might be wrong, how I know what I know, and then foist the onus to the questioner. As a friend's grandmother would say, "It doesn't pay to call someone ignorant, just draw attention to their ignorance."

“The unexamined life is not worth living.”

Socrates spoke these words to the jury in the court of Athens in the year 399 BCE after he had been found guilty of heresy and sedition. Heresy, crimes against established religion, and sedition, was activity that threatened the state.

In my experience, "being questioned" can take many forms and come in as many guises. Someone can repeat the same phrase so often that it becomes truth.. An inquisition is not a friendly interview...or a quest for insights....and anyone can be made to look bad under the right light.

[Climb01742]

in college i had two professors who were absolutely extraordinary and perhaps as close to geniuses as i'll ever meet. they were both incredibly humble and eager to learn and even -- god knows why -- genuinely eager to engage us pinheads in discussions/arguments/questioning/navel-gazing. there is an amount of brilliance that is most aware of its own brilliance; then there is a greater amount of brilliance that is most aware of what it doesn't know. a little brilliance often leads to arrogance; a lot of brillance more often leads to humility.

[Tom]

I work with some people that I would normally not ever listen to because nine times out of ten they don't add a damn thing but that tenth time they come up with a really insightful question or a gem of an idea. I've learned that I should never ever not listen to somebody no matter if they've been pig-headed wrong nearly every time they speak. They'll surprise the hell out of you every once in a while.

[Jeff Weir]

In high school I took up photography and have been with it ever since. Back then, it was a great way to spend time with the babes (taking their pictures), although my ultimate deisres rarely materialized...

I spend 99% of my time shooting in my studio of things that don't move or talk back. Subjects run the gammut...food, cosmetics, electronics, jewerly, and from time to time a complete bike or frame might end up in front of my camera. Haven't shot film in 7 years.

Fortunately for me, my wife is a graphic designer. Whenever I hit the wall or need an opinion, she is there. She has helped me, a pretty tasteless guy, to give the impression that I acually know what I'm doing. Between her, the kids, and work, I consider myself to be a pretty lucky guy.

[JohnS]

I have a job. I'm a warehouse supervisor and it's hell dealing with "professionals" who think they can do better just because they have more education, even if it has nothing to do with logistics. I used to run the warehouse for a major school system. They were the worst.

[pdonk]

My nice bikes are explained by 'effed up priorities - just ask my wife. :beer:

-Ray

I am right there with you (messed up priorities, or at least so I have been told).

My planner friends joke about the "darkside" earning more for selling their souls then we do.

[rpm]

I have one of those jobs that you can't explain to your in-laws. I think my mother-in-law for years thought that I never really had a job and went to the bar all day. The job I do is called "institutional research"--glamorous title, eh?

It's administrative research for colleges and universities. I'm employed by Enormous State University to project enrollments, study why students drop out, evaluate programs, do market surveys, and the like. There are people like me at every college of any size in the country, or the world, for that matter.

Everybody who does the work I do falls into it from something else, in my case psychological research. It's a living, but it doesn't inspire much passion. Since I'm one of the hoardes of boomers turning 60 this year, I'm starting to think about my "encore career". We boomers are not going to spend our days sitting around on our rocking chairs. We're going to be involved in things that we find fun and socially meaningful.

For me, that may involve designing church web sites, like the one I've done for my church, http://www.stmatthewsmn.org/, using my PhD in counseling psychology to help other boomers find interesting second careers, and volunteering with my local organ procurement agency. ( I just got back from the U.S. Transplant Games in Louisville. http://www.transweb.org/webcast/usa2006/cycle1.htm
I'm the first one in the second row from the bottom in the Gerolsteiner jersey)

[SponsorsWanted]

All of your lives are WAY too complicated. As a porn "star" I have a 4 hr. workday with good pay...

[CNY rider]

All of your lives are WAY too complicated. As a porn "star" I have a 4 hr. workday with good pay...


So I guess you get to do a lot of riding too? :banana:

[Ginger]

All of your lives are WAY too complicated. As a porn "star" I have a 4 hr. workday with good pay...

Yeah...I suppose that industry is just hopp'n in Chatenoogie....