FTP, Bonking and Group Rides [Archive]

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Splash

04-22-2016, 08:13 PM

Michael Maddox

04-22-2016, 08:23 PM

Push it for training, but drop back when you're done.

Then train more.

rnhood

04-22-2016, 08:25 PM

Agree, you should push it. No one bonks if they have eaten enough carbs. If you can't hang on then drop off, but only because you have to.

Tickdoc

04-22-2016, 08:28 PM

berserk87

04-22-2016, 08:43 PM

Are we talking bonking, or blowing up? They are two different things.

Bonking is being completely drained due to running out of energy (glycogen stores and other physiological what-nots). It typically happens on longer rides (several hours). It's hard to bounce back from this quickly, and simply riding easier for a bit won't cure it. It is also relatively rare for this to happen, if you eat right and are in riding shape.

Blowing up is a short-term thing that can happen quickly in a small period of time. Doing a really hard effort can bring this on. It feels like you are running out of breath - in a severe way. You can recover from this with a short bit of backing off. You could blow up, multiple times, on each and every ride if the pace is high enough or depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

I have only bonked a few times in my cycling life. I have blown up like a twitchy hand grenade plenty of times.

regularguy412

04-22-2016, 08:57 PM

Peter P.

04-22-2016, 09:09 PM

Are we talking bonking, or blowing up? They are two different things.

Exactly.

If the OP was bonking on these group rides, then the simple solution would be to eat before the bonk comes on.

If they're blowing up, I say alternate; on one group ride got until you blow; on the next, leave the group before you get dissected.

Why? Because riding beyond your limits applies stress to the body that causes it to super-compensate. THIS is how you improve. Don't forget to add rest and nutrition for proper recovery.

Peter P.

04-22-2016, 09:10 PM

Deleted duplicate post.

FL_MarkD

04-22-2016, 09:12 PM

I like to say, suffer for a minute or suffer for an hour. Sometimes pushing into the red zone for a minute to stay with the group is ok if you know they will ease up and then you can recover with the group. Once dropped you are on your own for the remainder of the ride (usually). And if that ride back is into a headwind and you have nobody to ride with then that and your frustration from being dropped can make you suffer.

That said, I have spent the hour suffering many times. :)

fogrider

04-22-2016, 09:20 PM

Splash

04-22-2016, 09:39 PM

Thanks guys.

I would say blow up instead of bonking - thanks for that differentiation.

It's happened a few times.

Once last year where I was part of a pack doing high speeds for a sustained period of time and then they seemed to flick a switch and off they went - leaving me stranded, miserable for the rest of the ride. I did train a lot for that ride - but obviously not enough or the right type of training.

Again, it happened recently on a training ride.

I know i need to train better.

Having said all that, so, i what i am reading above is that try to hang on even though it is beyond my FTP??

Splash

nate2351

04-22-2016, 10:06 PM

Is there a training race / weeknight crit in your area?

azrider

04-22-2016, 10:09 PM

I think I've only legitimately "BONKED" once......maybe twice in my life.......

Now blowing up ??? HA.......I ran out of fingers/toes or else I'd share.

John H.

04-22-2016, 10:26 PM

Do you have a powermeter so you can measure and evaluate the intensity?
If so, you can figure out why you are getting dropped and train differently to help avoid this in the future.
It could be that the riders are just too strong for you. This would point to too low of FTP.
It could be that you end up getting dropped after several climbs. Maybe max power and/or ability to recover from repeated efforts.
It might not be strength at all- it could be positioning and/or tactics.
Are you taking pulls before you get dropped? If so, you probably shouldn't be pulling.
Are you sitting too far back on climbs and corners so you have to work extra hard to move back up?
Are you comfortable in a tight draft? Some cannot hold a wheel so they are constantly in the wind- using extra energy.
Are you able to pedal in a group at a high cadence and save your legs a bit?
Any of these things can put you at a disadvantage.

Thanks guys.

I would say blow up instead of boring - thanks for that differentiation.

It's happened a few times.

Once last year where I was part of a pack doing high speeds for a sustained period of time and then they seemed to flick a switch and off they went - leaving me stranded, miserable for the rest of the ride. I did train a lot for that ride - but obviously not enough or the right type of training.

Again, it happened recently on a training ride.

I know i need to train better.

Having said all that, so, i what i am reading above is that try to hang on even though it is beyond my FTP??

Splash

giordana93

04-22-2016, 10:54 PM

Do you have a powermeter so you can measure and evaluate the intensity?
If so, you can figure out why you are getting dropped and train differently to help avoid this in the future.
It could be that the riders are just too strong for you. This would point to too low of FTP.
It could be that you end up getting dropped after several climbs. Maybe max power and/or ability to recover from repeated efforts.
It might not be strength at all- it could be positioning and/or tactics.
Are you taking pulls before you get dropped? If so, you probably shouldn't be pulling.
Are you sitting too far back on climbs and corners so you have to work extra hard to move back up?
Are you comfortable in a tight draft? Some cannot hold a wheel so they are constantly in the wind- using extra energy.
Are you able to pedal in a group at a high cadence and save your legs a bit?
Any of these things can put you at a disadvantage.

what he said.

stay with the group b/c you will eventually increase your ftp
but stay at the back or mid pack; most rides have plenty of guys who want to pull, just let em as you learn to negotiate pack movement and how to gauge your effort
learn which riders are smooth and stick with them
conversely when you see the non-smooth chain yankers, let them go or just be prepared for the surge
don't start climbs at the back
yes (again) to working on smooth high cadence. helps efficiency and recovery, makes it easier to close gaps
get comfortable following closely--like 18 inches. and stay off the brakes-- instead, drift into the wind to slow down

Splash

04-23-2016, 01:39 AM

Thanks Guys.

Really great tips.

In general, what level of importance is placed on the Power Meter during Group Rides?

Splash

Peter P.

04-23-2016, 06:26 AM

Thanks Guys.

Really great tips.

In general, what level of importance is placed on the Power Meter during Group Rides?

Splash

Zero importance. If you can't use your head to figure out what's going on, if you can't ignore the pain and ride out of your skin in an attempt to hang on, then no amount of technology is going to magically do it for you.

You can't buy your speed.

Hanging in on these fast group rides will either be the result of a long term evolution of your fitness or just not genetically possible.

ergott

04-23-2016, 08:06 AM

The only time I look at my power meter when I'm riding with others is if I'm regulating the pace on the front. I'll marshall the pace to keep everyone together, especially when someone is trying to keep up and having a hard time. But that's a different ride all together and not what you are looking to do.

The data is there for you to analyze after the ride. Don't look down, at all.

If you are having trouble staying with the group, ride smarter. Most groups I've ridden with won't mind if you skip your turn to pull if they know you are hanging on by a thread. Just ask some of the faster riders how to tactfully do that and make it know. Don't surprise the guy behind you by pulling off when the rider in front of you does. Usually, there's a spot about 5-6 wheels back that you try to stay behind.

Don't fall to far to the back of the group. You save much more energy in the front 1/3. The accordion motion is minimized and you spend less time accelerating and coasting. The effort is more consistent and you get all the benefits of being sheltered. Come.

If a long climb is coming up, let the rider behind you get up to the wheel you are on and then allow yourself to fall back. Don't let a gap happen in front of you while people are riding your wheel.

If the group lightens up and you can get back on, slowly allow yourself to get further up in the pack. Don't force any wheels, it should happen organically. If not, just hang where you end up and make the best of it. You'll find that you will be close where you were eventually.

Then repeat the above and hopefully you survive the ride. You can't do any of that looking at your computer.

sonnyhooper

04-23-2016, 08:20 AM

I agree with Maddox... Also, make sure you don't put yourself or others in danger if you are start bonking on sprints or hills.

SH

sonnyhooper

04-23-2016, 08:22 AM

I agree with ergott.... Don't over do it and put others in danger. It might hurt your pride, but that is it. You will speed up at some point.

SH

sonnyhooper

04-23-2016, 08:25 AM

Don't worry about power meters on a group ride. Just hang on and keep up. Unless you are keeping up with data, it's not important. The important aspect is to keep up with the riders. When you are beast then worry about the data.

SH

Mzilliox

04-23-2016, 08:27 AM

i think you gotta ride a bit more with your legs and a bit less with your head, its messing with you. You can either keep up with the cats or not.

carpediemracing

04-23-2016, 09:06 AM

If I am riding with any number of riders who have just stepped up to a new sustained tempo level that is greater than my FTP, should I fall back out of the group and continue riding on my miserable own for the rest of the ride and be within my FTP to avoid bonking?

How do you guys handle this situation?

Splash

First, if I know I'm outclassed I usually don't ride with the group much (FYI I'm a Cat 3, been racing annually since 1983, and I can win a Cat 3 race on a good day. On paper I'm a decent rider). My FTP is so low that I almost never stay with a group. After an easy Monday shop ride where I got shelled repeatedly, one of the women (non-racing 50+ year old) asked me if I was really trying when they all dropped me on a road that rose gently for about 10 miles. I was absolutely redlined for a while and simply couldn't hang, and I told her so. I don't think she could accept that because for shorter efforts I'm "strong". I think since then she understands that I'm good at up to about 1 min efforts, mainly 15-30 second efforts, but anything over 3-5 minutes sustained and I'm pretty pathetic.

As pointed before "bonking" is usually used to describe what happens when you run out of gas. If you're driving your 500 hp car and your car "bonks" it just means it ran out of gas. The car might be more powerful than a similar car with just 200 hp but without fuel it won't go. Like the car you need fuel also.

"Blowing up" is what I'd say to describe when I'm over my capabilities for a bit. It's like pushing your 200 hp car to keep up with a 500 hp car and overheating. You have to rest and recover before you can go again. FTP is what you theoretically can ride for an hour (and no more). My FTP is about 210-220w, probably 210w or lower right now. That's about enough to go 18-20 mph on a flat road solo. My FTP w/kg is about 2.7 w/kg. That's really low for a racer. I am rarely on rides where I can outclimb the others, and in fact in most group rides and races I'm literally one of the first ones dropped on extended climbs (more than a few minutes long).

Therefore I've been in your situation many times, assuming you're fueled and not just running out of gas. The problem is whatever effort is required at the point you're getting dropped. If it's a 5 minute climb you're having problems with 5 min efforts at a given w/kg (or speed or effort, if you don't have a powermeter, or even if you do). If it's a 1 minute climb that's a different problem. 30 second climb, again, slightly different problem. 10 minute flat section in the wind? A different problem again. 5 minute descent? Again, a different problem.

What you need to do is to analyze exactly when you're running into trouble. If you have a GPS phone you can use free Strava to at least get an idea of what Strava thinks you're doing (the power numbers Strava guesses are quite high at times - it has me more than doubling my FTP at times). If other riders use Strava on your ride you can use the Fly-By feature to see how they're riding (all the riders you select appear as dots along the route and move relative to one another like they did in real time).

If you are slowly petering out until you're just struggling, that's a sign that you're probably outmatched on that particular section. If you're going hard and then explode just before the top, then you're probably okay, you just need to adjust how you apply your effort.

For example I always had problems sticking with the Gimbels long ride. Sometimes I lost them in the warm up, which was simply because I was unfit. Later, when I was fit, I would lose them on the first set of step climbs, then, later, one short hill that was followed by a lot of fast flat stuff.

For the step climbs I conserved as much as possible until just before the hill. This meant sitting in, no closing gaps to the next group, no fooling around. Sit on a wheel, stay out of the wind (critical in crosswinds!), be loose and relaxed. Then I moved to the front, before the pace went up, so I would have a lot of "drift back" room in the group, meaning I could climb slower than the others but not get dropped. Since there were usually 40-70 riders in the group (the long ride group) at that point I could go a bit slower for a long time. At first I couldn't make it to the top of the step climbs with the group. It took me a couple weeks/rides to figure out that I didn't have to go quite as hard at the very top step. I could lose the wheel in the last 15 seconds, sprint over the top, then use my mass to descend back to the group. In fact, due to the draft, I could descend literally to the front of the group within a mile or so, passing 40-70 riders in the process.

Next, the one climb in the middle of fast stuff. I'd hit the climb already almost redlined because simply sitting on wheels was hard on the preceeding flats. We'd hit the short climb - 30 or 60 seconds - and I'd blow up before the top. Then on the following fast stuff I couldn't bridge. I had to really extend myself and stay on wheels over the top. The fast stuff didn't feel super fast after 20-30 seconds if I was on a wheel because my FTP allowed me to draft at 25-28 mph, and 30 mph was only a bit difficult. If I wasn't on a wheel I could only sustain 18-20 mph and the group easily rode away from me. So I focused on getting over the top on a wheel, any wheel, and then after recovering I was okay again. I could make surges to cover a gap after a minute or two.

They've since added a longer climb, it's more than the first set of steps. I come off pretty early into the long hill. I didn't do the ride enough to figure out if I could make it over the hill, but I think not. I was struggling simply to hold FTP long before the top of the hill. I'm guessing the hill is 10 minutes long?

So what you want to do is to be brutally honest with yourself. Do a no BS assessment. When are you getting dropped? What are the conditions for the few minutes before, the situation where you're getting dropped, and what comes after that section?

Are you okay sitting on wheels? Meaning are you able to sit within a foot of a wheel regularly? Can you read the wind? Can you decide if you need to sit to the left or right of the rider in front of you? THink about your strengths. If you don't climb well can you descend well? Can you corner well? Cornering is free, requires no training, and you can practice whenever you drive your car or a shopping cart or a car video game or a Matchbox car on your desk.

etc etc. If you can post some thoughts we all might be able to give you more specific tips.

carpediemracing

04-23-2016, 09:18 AM

Powermeter - I never look at my powermeter when I ride or race, except to make sure it's on or for sanity checks like to see how far we've gone, or how fast we're going at this moment, etc. The sanity checks help me plan for the finish. To put things in perspective in one of my more important races, a 30 mile 30 lap crit, I only looked down for the first time about 4 or 5 laps from the finish (I got 12 minutes of data total, about 10 minutes of race data). It was at that point that I realized that the powermeter wasn't on. I'd raced maybe 50-60 minutes and literally never looked at my powermeter.

I do use my powermeter for analysis after the race. I'll see what I did, if I did some big efforts (or not), etc. For example that race where I only had 10 minutes of real data, I would have sworn I did some massive efforts in the last lap. By massive I'd have said 1000-1200 watt peak efforts, maybe 800w sustained in two separate short efforts (5-8 seconds each). I'm hitting those numbers somewhat regularly, like 1200-1250w peak, 1000-1100w sustained for 10-15 seconds. I expected this race to be similar.

Instead the powermeter data showed me that, at most, I peaked at 912w. I did do an 800w peak before that. But my other big efforts were just 700w peak, 600w peak, and a really weak 550w peak. The kicker is that I won the race, and, although initially I thought I barely won it, it was clear on review that I won it by a margin. I've never won a full field race by that much, even those races where I've hit a 1300w peak and sustained 1100w for the final 18-19 seconds (the best numbers I've put down in a race).

The race in question (it was 2015):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbg4YluM6HE
I did make a couple efforts during the race but most of the time I sat and watched. When I do a group ride I'm even more conservative.

John H.

04-23-2016, 11:03 AM

It depends- if you have goals centered around the group ride it can help.
If your goal is to not get dropped- it probably does not help at all.
But having a pwoermeter can allow you to regulate better on long climbs (if you tend to start to hard).
It can also tell you what kj (energy expenditure) is- so you can better plan your eating.
Or it can act as a black box- you don't really look at the data during the ride, but you can analyze the data later to figure out what you did right and wrong-
This can help you to not make the same mistakes in the future- or better train the areas that you need to train.

Thanks Guys.

Really great tips.

In general, what level of importance is placed on the Power Meter during Group Rides?

Splash

shovelhd

04-23-2016, 03:47 PM

Splash

04-23-2016, 04:37 PM

Thanks again team.

Some fantastic insight provided and will take on board everything noted.

I read a lot on the net about using the PM as an important pacing tool (with W/kg) during your ride to ensure you don't bonk or blow up. Interesting to read here that the PM is generally used as a black box and not used as a pacing tool.

carpediemracing - I am a strong climber and love to take the lead during climbs.
But, I tend to get dropped on the flats at times when I am on the back riding a fair speed, but for some reason - I cannot keep up when the pace quickly steps up and that wheel gap becomes greater.

JohnH and carpediemracing - what do you look for when you analyse your PM after your rides to find gaps and opportunities to improve?

Splash

regularguy412

04-23-2016, 04:44 PM

Reading thru what Carpediem has said about his experiences in the 'step ride', and it sounds a lot like me. I'm more of a sprinter-type ,,, fast twitch kinda rider. (Tho I 'did' win my State Time Trial Championship for my age group 3 times and placed 3rd 3 times ,,, but that was , ahem, 20-odd years ago).

Anyway. What he is saying about knowing your own body is key. I would also say, that knowing the course is also very important. The combination of knowing the course AND knowing how your body will react on it makes all the difference.

When I started racing (1989), one of the racer-guys I regularly trained with said it would take at least 3 years of consistent training and racing just to get to the 'competitive' point (not winning, mind you). He was right. I got shelled from every race pack whether it was a crit or a road race for the better part of 3 years. Nearing the end of my third year as a USCF,, (remember THAT designation?) member, I finally 'stayed on' thru a whole crit. I felt like I had WON, but I was only just pack fodder. This was a no-name every Wednesday nite training race. All the 1s, 2s, 3s, and Vets would race the A race . Then the 4s (there were no 5s then) Women, Juniors and Citizens would race the B race. So, yeah,, it was hard for a 3rd year 'Vet' ( I didn't start racing until I was 30 years old) racing against guys who were either younger, more experienced or BOTH!

I survived the trial by fire. After staying on in that ONE RACE, racing became fun. It really didn't bother me if I got shelled in later races, cuz I knew I could race again and not 'necessarily' get killed. I didn't pick my parents too well,, re: Athleticism. So I always just had to work harder than the other 'guy'.

Racing is fun, when you are proficient at it, even if you don't always 'win'

:)

Mike in AR:beer:

John H.

04-23-2016, 04:58 PM

For a ride like you are speaking of (group ride where you hope not to get dropped) I would look at what you were doing up until that point.
Was power consistently too high for you to maintain?
Was it small hard efforts that hurt you?
Was it the distance that hurt you?
Was it positioning that hurt you?
Was it not eating/drinking enough?
Then address accordingly.

Thanks again team.

Some fantastic insight provided and will take on board everything noted.

I read a lot on the net about using the PM as an important pacing tool (with W/kg) during your ride to ensure you don't bonk or blow up. Interesting to read here that the PM is generally used as a black box and not used as a pacing tool.

carpediemracing - I am a strong climber and love to take the lead during climbs.
But, I tend to get dropped on the flats at times when I am on the back riding a fair speed, but for some reason - I cannot keep up when the pace quickly steps up and that wheel gap becomes greater.

JohnH - what do you look for when you analyse your PM after your rides to find gaps and opportunities to improve?

Splash

carpediemracing

04-23-2016, 08:29 PM

I read a lot on the net about using the PM as an important pacing tool (with W/kg) during your ride to ensure you don't bonk or blow up. Interesting to read here that the PM is generally used as a black box and not used as a pacing tool.

carpediemracing - I am a strong climber and love to take the lead during climbs.
But, I tend to get dropped on the flats at times when I am on the back riding a fair speed, but for some reason - I cannot keep up when the pace quickly steps up and that wheel gap becomes greater.

JohnH and carpediemracing - what do you look for when you analyse your PM after your rides to find gaps and opportunities to improve?

Splash

I personally use the PM as a black box. In a group the reality is that the group dictates your pace, not you. If the group jumps you really can't say, "Okay, guys, can you ease up a bit, I really don't want to go into Zone 3 yet." I mean, okay, I've heard such phrases before but unless it's a group of two it's usually not in keeping with the group ride thing.

On solo rides I'll glance every now and then at the PM, usually for the nonsensical stuff like checking how much time I have left. I do look at my cadence on solo rides because I tend to slog more than I ought to. I prefer to maintain 90 rpm or more, at least on the longer 175s. On the 170s I have on now it seems 100-105 seems about right. If I do a long climb (Palomar Mountain comes to mind - it takes me about 2 hours to do the climb and about 2-3 hours just to ride to the base of it from where I usually stay in SoCal) then I'll look at the PM because I know I have to average about 150-160w otherwise I'll run out of time and have to turn around so it's not dark by the time I get back to home base. I also looked at the PM a lot when I first got it so I could experiment with gearing and such.

Tip: if you're going 10 mph up a given hill in a given gear on a given bike, it takes EXACTLY the same wattage to do it in a 39x21 as a 53x11. Your cadence will change but the work you're doing is the same. This is why using lower gears and higher cadences is helpful on climbs, because you stress the cardiovascular system more than the muscular system. However, whatever you're stressing, if you're above your FTP then you're burning the explosion fuse regardless of how you feel at first.

Another tip: HR is closely related to cadence. Often riders get to the top of a climb just as they blow up. They think "Oh, I must have timed it perfectly, I pushed really hard and blew up just as I got to the top." No. If they turned the corner and the hill went another 100 yards they'd have been fine. What happens is that the road gradually levels off. Just 1 mph and you're pedaling something like 4 rpm faster. When you pedal faster it temporarily drives your HR up, and it could blow you up. I found that if I shift before I increase my rpm by 4 then I avoid blowing up. So if I'm climbing at 88 rpm I'll shift when I see 92 rpm, then again at 92 rpm, etc. This way my HR doesn't spike. The problem is that if you do this you'll be grinding a semi low gear and it's harder to respond to accelerations. It's great if you're leading over a climb because you naturally speed up as you shift up (you'll be shifting every few seconds) and then you can ease up a bit and recover as the others start to roll past you.

For data analysis I look at a few things. First, keep in mind that I ride so I can race, and I race so I can sprint. It's not critical to me that the sprint is for the race win; I just want to do a field sprint. For me a good year is doing well in field sprints, even if most/all of them aren't even in the money. So based on that I look at 20 min max (because that usually indicates how hard the race was), 1 min max (ditto, but now relating to the last lap), 18-20 sec max (I have to "search for intervals" and set that time - it's basically how long I can sprint), and 5s and peak (because they're fun to compare to other days).

If I was trying to figure out why I was getting shelled I'd look at what was happening just before I got shelled. You'll definitely see that your avg power was up - you might search for "1 minute intervals" and chances are the highest one will be the 1 minute just before you got shelled (probably starting off with a big spike as you realize, "hey, wait, they just took off!".

My FTP is low, like 210w at best right now. I weigh 168 lbs right now, 76 kg, so my FTP is 2.7 w/kg. I struggle massively to do 5-7 minutes at 250w. A couple years ago I got completely shelled in a race where a Cat 1 (former pro) went to the front, drilled it for a while, drifted back, glanced at me suffering 1000 deaths, went back to the front, and drilled it again. Even sitting on required something like 250-300 watts. I averaged something like 280 watts for 5 minutes and then I was gone. It was painfully obvious that there was absolutely nothing I could do in that situation to stay in the race. It was single file, I definitely know how to sit in shelter, and I was way over my threshold. I never looked at my PM during that time I groveled, I was focused 100% on being close to the next wheel and being on the proper side depending on where we were on the course.

If you're at the front on climbs there are a few things. First, from what I can tell, riding hard on climbs is easier than riding hard on flats, meaning for the same power output. I find it much harder to average the same wattage on flat roads than on a hill. I have theories on why but many people seem to agree. Therefore I'm going to say it's easier to "push" on a hill than on a flat.

Next, if you're pulling on the hills and there's a headwind, you're really digging yourself into a hole. Even though there isn't much draft, the extra power you're putting down could make the difference between staying on after and getting shelled.

Third, if you're keen on the hills (like I'm keen on the flats) then it may be that you've optimized your bike/riding/style for the hills. Aero is less important on hills, weight is more important. However, on flatter roads, aero becomes much more significant. Are you aero on the bike? Are you efficient? My bike isn't necessarily the lightest out there but between my bike and my position I'm reasonably aero. Therefore on flatter roads I'm less disadvantaged. I'm always paying attention. I tend to ride in the drops because it's more comfortable for me and my bad back, it gives me better control (turning, braking), and it gives me the best position for hard accelerations and sprints. Unless you're a pro (they seem to ride the hoods all the time) I'd say that generally speaking when on the flatter roads you should be on the drops. It's not just the position, it's also the mental state. You're in the drops so it's serious. On the hoods, not so serious.

Fourth, if you're keen on hills, it may be that you have less snap/sprint. That's stereotyping but I've rarely seen a sprinter that can climb well and I rarely see climbers that sprint well. This means to me that if there's a hard surge on a flatter road you may not be able to respond as quickly as others. You may inadvertently leave a gap of a bike length or two, which, as you've probably learned, can be absolutely fatal if you're on the limit. Remember that once you lose the draft you need to increase power exponentially to get back on, and if you lost the draft because you couldn't put down the power then you're not going to be putting down even more power to get back on. This is why most experienced racers, once dropped from a race, simply sit up. There's no point in chasing because you have to go so much harder to catch back on. I worked out a chart of pack speeds and chase speeds at one point. I don't have it handy but basically if the group is going 25-28 mph and you're within 10-20 seconds you have some very solid 30 mph effort to put down before you're back on the group. I'm going to guess it's about a minute. I don't know about you but even with my aero wheels I find it really hard to go 30 mph for a minute, and this is just getting back into the group.

Finally, hills slow down the pack dynamics. People who feel less comfortable in a group aren't as nervous on a climb. Speeds are lower, everyone naturally moves around a little more, there's more separate between abilities. It's immediately clear who can climb fast and who can't. On flat roads it's not quite so clear, and often the strongest riders are not the ones who are winning. What this means in your situation is that I'm guessing that you may not be as comfortable in a group situation on the flats as on the hills. This will handicap you as it's literally impossible to be well sheltered if you're not physically close to other riders. You need to be on their wheel or, more likely, a little to the side of their wheel. You have to read the wind, which changes with all sorts of variables (buildings on the side of the road, tree line, no tree line, hill to one side, etc). Then you need to be able to find shelter in the group appropriately.

Related to that hills de-emphasize pack riding skills/attention. Everything happens in slow motion and the draft is much less significant. On flat roads the draft is everything and things happen very quickly. You have to be super attentive in a flatter bit of road.

Keep in mind that 1 mph is 1.5 feet per second. If you go 1 mph slower than the rider in front of you, in 2 seconds you'll be 3 feet back. That's losing most of the draft. In 4 seconds 6 feet, in 10 seconds 15 feet. At 15 feet you're gone. You just cannot mess around on the flats.

Likewise I prefer aero wheels because I tend to ride on flatter roads. My wheels are probably worth a couple mph in a full out sprint, maybe 1 mph in less impressive speeds. That's still 1 mph (theoretically), 1.5 feet per second. If my wheels get me a cushion worth a few feet in a couple seconds, that's not bad.

benb

04-23-2016, 09:25 PM

While I agree with not staring at your PM in a group ride for safety reasons, the whole thing is mostly a waste if you're only using it as a black box even in solo training.

Take the data from the group ride, read the Coggan book, learn how to figure out what the weakness is, and then go train that solo with the PM. You will need to look at the PM to do that. Or do all that AND get some help from a coach.

If it's your FTP, there are training programs for that. You're not going to help your FTP doing sprint workouts and sitting in on flat group rides (in most cases) for example.

In general if you are going over your FTP to keep up in a group ride you're going to blow up if the ride gets too long.

E.x. 90 minute group ride. I can do whatever I want, for me personally it's going to be rare around here for a group ride to be fast enough on flat for me to be in trouble. As soon as there are hills if I'm outmatched on the hills I'm probably going to be going over my FTP. But that's not going to add up to enough time for me to really blow up and fall apart.

Now make it a 4 hour group ride. If I'm having to pile up time on the climbs above my FTP somewhere after hour 2 I am going to be having a serious problem, as that "system" that allows that level of effort is just not designed to keep doing that for many hours.

FTP from what I've learned so far and been doing is best trained with longer intervals slightly below to above your FTP. E.x. Mine is about 270 right now, I had 2 workouts this week where I had 3x12 minute intervals between 240-280 watts so for those I will watch the PM to try and keep average power and NP in the correct range.

My FTP has gone up about 40 watts this season since I started using the PM, but it's not at a level that is historically super high for me. Where it is helpful is I got there pretty quick and I'm not burned out or overtrained.

Threshold intervals are not something to do a day or two before a group ride, you'll get dropped! Also some of the power workouts will really make you hate areas where it is tough to ride for a long time without getting stopped at lights and intersections.

Splash

04-24-2016, 05:19 AM

Thanks again.

Huge posts! Thanking you all as usual for putting so much effort and thought into your responses....

Ben - what type of rest do you have in between your 3 x 12 intervals? Some great thoughts on PM.

Regularguy - Excellent work - Congrats.

John H- Thank you for those tips!

Carpediemracing -

I like the idea of using the PM to gauge how much time you have left to ride and to experiment with gearing.

Can one determine how long to go beyond FTP before blowing up?

Do you shift to the smaller chain ring before you hit the base of the climb and stay in the small ring for duration of climb?

If you were looking at your data - post ride, how do you tell the exact moment (time and distance) you get shelled if you retain the same power (with the other increasing theirs)?

How do you search for 1 minute intervals - what software do you use do to execute this?

Interesting to read that many think it is easier to "push" on a hill than on a flat.

Can't really tell if I have optimised my style for hills, although i have always liked to stay in saddle for most (if not all) of the climb. My bike choice i think is a nice blend (stiff, light, aero) - to suit hills and flats (bianchi Oltre XR with enve tubs 6.7's). I turn into an hungry animal when i am on the climbs and have a very steely determination.

I like to be aero on the bike as often as possible and ride on the drops alot - in the flats and a lot of the hills.

How do i measure efficiency?

Yes, I think i have less snap / sprint. I am glad this has been pointed out - and now is obvious to me.

Do use 23C or 25C tires on your aero wheels? Logic behind your tire choice?

SPlash

jwalther

04-24-2016, 06:14 AM

I experienced the difference between bonking and blowing up yesterday riding my first century of the season. I started with a slower group (about 18mph to that point), and at mile 25 we hooked up with some faster riders. I rode the middle 50 at about 21mph, when after a particularly difficult pull, I just couldn't keep up. I let the group go, and finished the ride solo. Had I bonked, I would have called SAG. Instead, I was able to finish the ride.

Splash

04-24-2016, 06:22 AM

that's tough Jwalther.

Why do you think you blew up on this event?

Splash

ripvanrando

04-24-2016, 07:20 AM

Down and dirty Bonking is mostly about low blood sugar (glucose) and a rider's brain going berserk although fat adapted riders have enough circulating ketones to stave off these effects.

Blowing up is related to exceeding your FTP beyond your capacity that is a function of time and wattage. For example, you might be able to go 10% over your FTP for 8 minutes but only 25% over for 2-3 minutes. There is a program or App that is will model your fitness signature and tells when you will blow up. Basically H+ ions keep your muscles from contracting....you burning matches....you blew up. How fast one recovers from such a maximal effort or how many of these efforts a rider can sustain is a different question. How many times and over how many miles a rider can sustain these efforts is not well modeled in my opinion. I have not been able to find a decent scientific explanation for long term fatigue but less fit riders will be able to sustain fewer hard efforts over a shorter distance compared to a more fit rider. There is central nervous system component where your brain is saying don't do it and motivation plays a huge role as does the confidence that comes from experience.

Once muscle glycogen is gone and blood glucose is low, you are toast unless you have sufficient ketones to fuel the brain but very few riders are fat adapted. Toast. This is just proper fueling. I never bonk anymore even on rides exceeding 200 miles.

ripvanrando

04-24-2016, 07:26 AM

Splash

04-24-2016, 07:46 AM

There is a program or App that is will model your fitness signature and tells when you will blow up. .

Great stuff!

Name of app?

SPlash

guido

04-24-2016, 07:57 AM

Great stuff!

Name of app?

SPlash

Have you checked out Training Peaks WKO4+?

Hindmost

04-24-2016, 11:17 AM

Bonking, blowing up. I once told someone during a local ride of pretty accomplished guys that I was reluctant to go on their rides because I feared being dropped. He replied, "What's the worst that could happen? You have to ride home."

So, it is good to have something in your pocket to eat for that ride home.

Black Dog

04-24-2016, 01:46 PM

If you are staring at your power meter on a group ride with me, I'm going to yell at you. It's dangerous.

Hopefully you will learn that the most important thing to develop is not power, not race craft, and not endurance, it's listening to your body. Knowing when to push it past the max and when it's futile to do so. You won't learn this from a book. Your power meter won't tell you. You will learn this from practice. Training, group rides, and racing if you choose to do it. There is no prescription. The answer is not on this forum, it is within yourself.

Splash, this is the advice that you need to take. There is no technology that will answer many of the questions that you are asking here. NONE. You need to learn to listen to your body and know your body. Each day is different, each ride is different and the antecedent conditions before the ride will have a great effect on your ride. Your body will provide all the feedback that you need and you need to listen to it. Only experience will provide you with this knowledge. I have been riding for near on 30 years and raced many a race; myself and every person who I know has raced and ridden a long time listens to their body and respects the feedback it gives while riding. Once you know how to do this you will become what we call a smart rider, where you can get out every bit of performance while not blowing up. Once again, Shovel nailed it.

ripvanrando

04-24-2016, 04:31 PM

great stuff!

Name of app?

Splash

xert

Ralph

04-24-2016, 05:11 PM

Sometimes......not everyone can keep up. It's hard for full time working folks to keep up some times. Gotta wait until you get older and retired....and can ride a lot....ride faster then (for a few years).LOL

benb

04-24-2016, 06:54 PM

5 Minutes usually. I'm on a program from a coach so I didn't just start with 3x12.. it's ramped up to that over 8-10 weeks.

[quote]
I like the idea of using the PM to gauge how much time you have left to ride and to experiment with gearing.

Can one determine how long to go beyond FTP before blowing up?

FTP is literally the power you can hold for an hour... as in the gold standard test for that is a 1 hour TT. If you can hold the power level longer than that it's not your FTP. I don't really understand all the details, but in general I'm pretty sure your efforts "add up" and at a certain power level you've got an hour of that to use up and then you're going to be in trouble if you have to keep doing that. It's more complex than that, but you can't ride at FTP for an hour, relax for 30 minutes, and then do another 1 hour at FTP. You might not know where your FTP is but you probably do know when you're over it even if you don't have a PM or even a HRM, at least on moderate to long efforts. There is a definite feeling you learn to recognize. I didn't "know my FTP" till I had a power meter but I've long known where that pace/effort level was that I wasn't going to be able to hold over longer periods.

You are asking a million questions... you should get a coach. It seems like a lot of your questions are personal and can have different answers for different riders. Some of these questions do not have easy answers.

carpediemracing

04-24-2016, 07:35 PM

Carpediemracing -

I like the idea of using the PM to gauge how much time you have left to ride and to experiment with gearing.

Can one determine how long to go beyond FTP before blowing up?

Do you shift to the smaller chain ring before you hit the base of the climb and stay in the small ring for duration of climb?

If you were looking at your data - post ride, how do you tell the exact moment (time and distance) you get shelled if you retain the same power (with the other increasing theirs)?

How do you search for 1 minute intervals - what software do you use do to execute this?

Interesting to read that many think it is easier to "push" on a hill than on a flat.

Can't really tell if I have optimised my style for hills, although i have always liked to stay in saddle for most (if not all) of the climb. My bike choice i think is a nice blend (stiff, light, aero) - to suit hills and flats (bianchi Oltre XR with enve tubs 6.7's). I turn into an hungry animal when i am on the climbs and have a very steely determination.

I like to be aero on the bike as often as possible and ride on the drops alot - in the flats and a lot of the hills.

How do i measure efficiency?

Yes, I think i have less snap / sprint. I am glad this has been pointed out - and now is obvious to me.

Do use 23C or 25C tires on your aero wheels? Logic behind your tire choice?

SPlash

Another long one.

Keep in mind that I'm not a "trainer" per se. I don't use my PM for training virtually ever. I did do some structured intervals early 2015 for a VO2 Max experiment posted here. I haven't done any bunch of structured intervals since the mid 80s before that, and maybe one or two days of intervals since.

There are ways of calculating what you can do for how long, but I don't know them. Generally you can do a higher % over your FTP for a short time. I do know that your max 20 min power is usually 95% of your FTP. I use the different numbers to do a sanity check on my numbers. Most people don't believe I can race on the low numbers I put down, but all the evidence seems to back up my power numbers. However I don't put my head down on a ride and think, "Okay, I can do 105% of my FTP for 20 minutes."

I take the FTP % calculations with a grain of salt because my FTP is so low and I regularly hit 200-300% of my FTP in races. My best 1m numbers are about 250% of my FTP, for example. I think that % is high, maybe I'm wrong. I know a few other riders's FTP/1m, and they're more like 60% higher (400w FTP, 650w 1m).

Having done some VO2 Max intervals (for me I was told to hold 217-248w for 5 to 8 minutes depending on the day) I learned some stuff that isn't realistic for me. For example on one big effort I started out at 280w or something stupid and realized really quickly that I couldn't sustain it. My FTP at the beginning of the VO2Max experiment was calculated at 208w (by the experimenting people). At the end it was measured at 218w. Thing is that I thought I was absolutely smashing it in the final test compared to the first test. I thought for sure I'd be in the 240w range but no.

I use Golden Cheetah (I use Macs) for powermeter software. You can search for intervals of any length. For Zwift I decided a while ago to look for 23 seconds (length of one of the sprints) so that's the number I look for and note. If I can do 950w for 23s that's good. I'm more like 800w right now so that's not so good. This is based off my SRM, not off Zwift calculated power.

For figuring out what happened in a ride it's usually pretty easy - there's an escalating range of power readings, HR is pegged at close to max sustainable, then the power, HR, and speed drop off a cliff. I know the reality of catching a group so if I'm gone I sit up. I happen to use a helmet cam when I ride so I can see time stamps on the helmet cam footage and then see what the power numbers were at the time. Usually though I can just look at the data and figure out, okay, this is that first hill, this was the acceleration after that turn, this is the step climb stuff, etc.

I find a helmet cam to be super useful in analyzing race data. I "coached" a rider who had moved to Europe. He did races regularly on the same loop (they have races a few days a week on that course). He was struggling just to break into the top 20 of the field. I asked him to video tape his race, upload it, and I reviewed it. I could see where he was in the wind unnecessarily, where he was holding back when he should have moved up, etc. He gave me access to his Training Peaks account so I could line up power numbers, HR, etc with his cam footage. Based on what I observed, using some historical wind observations he made, I made some tactical recommendations. He placed something like 6th or 7th the next time out. His power wasn't different, it was how he applied it. His competitors include a couple very high level ProTour riders (i.e. won Paris Roubaix, multiple national titles, etc) who do these races for training, so we're talking some very skilled and powerful racers.

For tires I have 23mm tubulars on wide rims (28mm wide max rim width). HED Stinger 7 front, 9 rear. I also have Stinger 6 F&R, Stinger 4 Front, but I use the 7/9 almost exclusively. I use 23mm tires because I still have a bunch of them, like 10 or 15 new tires. I also have limited clearance on my bike due to 39 cm chainstays. Finally I like a firm tire in corners so I like a tire with more pressure. I did run 21mm and 22mm tires on the same wheels, the 23mm seem like they protect the fragile rim edges better because the tire is a bit wider.

For clinchers I'm on 23c. On the rear the tire is close enough on one of my two bikes that if I run over sand the sand grains scrape paint off the frame. I really can't go wider.

Efficiency - I don't know how you'd measure this. For me it's me observing while I race, it's reviewing helmet cam footage and checking wind direction etc. I'm super conscious of wind, like super super conscious, because if I'm in the wind I'm done in literally a minute or two. I can win a race averaging about 170w. For some races I'd play a game with myself in crits - I'd see if I could get my HR down to 120. Since I'd hit 110 bpm just lining up 120 was really low (I'd typically average 170 back then). It was tough but sometimes I got my HR down there. Nowadays I don't do that, but I know what it feels like to minimize output.

I also poll riders, storing little snippets of info, etc. For example one Tues Night I was warming up with another racer. We both read out our power numbers out loud while riding side by side. I was consistently 10-20w lower. We hadn't done any controls or anything so we couldn't really use those numbers exactly (different brand powermeters but both were crank based), but the gist of it was that I was consistently putting down less power.

As far as following wheels, I'll find myself about 6" off the next wheel in a decent pack. If it's getting sketchy or I'm distracted then more like 1-2 feet. When I'm desperate I might be 3" or less, and I often overlap, even at higher speeds (30-35 mph on flat roads). When it's faster I back off a bit, so maybe 5-10 feet at 40-45 mph on roads I don't know, more if I can't see ahead of the riders directly in front of me. My helmet cam is deceiving because it makes everyone look really far away. There are times where my shoulder is basically skimming the guy next to me but the camera makes it look like I'm a foot or two away. If the rear wheel isn't in view I'm on the wheel. If it's in view I'm not on the wheel.

Ultimately efficiency is doing enough to get the job done without doing too much extra. For you, based on your thoughts on the group ride, if you can stay with the group then at some level you'll have been efficient enough.

For me I also use historical data. With the powermeter I have a collection of data dating back to 2008. I notice if I'm high or low in a race, my peak and sprint numbers (Golden Cheetah allows you to specify interval length to the second so I'll really hone in on the sprint and get it down to the second). After a while I've come to understand that I basically put down about 800-1000 watts in a 12-18 second sprint, my peak in a race is usually 1100-1300w. In training, where I don't have to respond to pace/effort before a sprint, my sustained sprint is over 100w higher and peak is 250w higher. Therefore if I look at my data after a race and see 1100w peak I know I was off or tired or something. If I see 1300w that's massive for a race peak.

One race sort of surprised me. I rarely warm up for races but at this race I was really nervous and did a few jumps before the race, not paying attention to actual power numbers (SRM doesn't display instantaneous power well). The race went well but I couldn't hang in the race with 2 turns to go - I was totally redlined. I had to sit up and the guys around me were all in the top 10. When I downloaded the data I saw that I did consistent 1400-1450w jumps before the race (!!!). I also saw that I did something like 600w for my peak 1m power, just before I blew up in the race, and it included a couple massive jumps (well into 1200w) just to stay on wheels. In the race I had no idea how hard I was going but I just knew that race was really, really hard. The fact is that I did some close-to-record jumps in warm up (I was really nervous I guess) and I did the best 1m I ever did during the race (race was super hard) showed me that I wasn't dreaming when I thought the race was particularly hard. I sheltered as well as normal so it was pure pace that killed me.

If you don't have a powermeter then I think a bar or helmet cam would be very useful. You may think you do this or that but the cam will expose everything in a raw and vivid way. I prefer a helmet cam because I can tell where I was looking. A bar cam doesn't show where you're looking and may not tell the whole story. With a cam (either kind), for you, for your situation, I'd look at what the other riders are doing just when you get gapped off. A rearview cam may be useful as well - you can see what the others are doing on the hills that you like to lead up.

In this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClymNj6e9dE), at about 7:15, I respond to a really hard move. At about 7:55, after not really being on a wheel since responding to the move, I find shelter. You can hear it vividly in the clip, the wind just disappears. This is the kind of shelter you need to be able to find, and it's something not many riders bother doing.

If you don't know how to read wind, or you want to make sure you do, read this (I wrote it, the race series isn't anymore because I stopped promoting it):
http://bethelspringseries.com/clinic/2013-clinic-week-3

You can read the rest of the clinic pages but that has to do with reading wind direction. I'm surprised how many experienced riders don't know how to read wind well. To wit, the next clip. Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLKxv7fqhs), at 8:15, I'm approaching a left turn. The wind will hit me from the right after the turn, meaning I made a mistake because I was on the right side of the field and the wind will hit me. When I make the turn there is a rider in blue/white, number 714, to my left. He's making a multitude of errors in terms of wind. He's not on a wheel (he's a solid 2-4 bike lengths behind the next wheel). He's not to the left (no one on his right after he passes me). He has room to move up and over, but he does not. He really should have eased and let me take the wind for him. On top of that he's also pretty rigid (elbows rigid and sticking out) so it seems that he was nervous about having me to his right and another guy to his left. Had I been in his position I'd have either eased and sat on my wheel (to the left and behind me) or pushed a bit harder to slip between the two riders and then tried to move over to the left after the turn. It takes me 15 seconds to get into his shelter; at that time he is still in the wind, wasting energy uselessly. I avoided the rider after that turn because I was not confident in his riding skills. Although he is probably much more fit than me, FTP-wise, he wasn't applying it well at all. I bet I averaged 50-100w lower than him during the race, if not more.

Less snap/sprint is not a race/ride killer. The last race I won, which was in 2015, I peaked at 912w. It was a combination of various factors but let's put it this way - I didn't feel like I won the race for a few days because when I crossed the line I was alone. I'm usually sprinting my brains out, trying to fend off the field, and in this case I was crawling to the line alone. It was hard for me to accept. Of course now I have :) Anyway, the perceived lack of snap means you just need to be more attentive in terms of gaps on the flats.

I found that I do one strong downstroke (one leg) to close minor gaps. I didn't realize this until I went riding with my wife on our tandem. I found myself almost lifting myself off the saddle trying to do these little punchy downstrokes. I realized that this is what I did on my single/normal bike, but on the tandem the 350+ lbs total weight didn't let me do the same thing. It ended up being 5-6 full pedal strokes to close minor gaps and we were off the back within 5 or 7 miles. You may be doing stuff to adjust the gap to the next rider without realizing, and my little punchy downstrokes don't register on the SRM (I guess they might on a left-right set up).

Splash

04-24-2016, 09:02 PM

carpediemracing

04-24-2016, 09:51 PM

Thanks. WOW - such a detailed response again. Cheers.

How do you line up power numbers, HR, etc. with cam footage?

I use 25C tires atm with my 6.7's, but thinking of going back to 23C tires. Would the 23C tires reduce rolling resistance and hence help towards transmitting power onto the ground?

Splash

With a race it's easy - there's zero everything for a while until the race starts, then, because I do crits, there's a constant pattern as I do each lap. It's pretty easy to coordinate, and it's not split-second critical, I just know "okay, I did a hard effort here, what was it?".

My understanding is that on paper the 25c should roll faster.

jwalther

04-25-2016, 06:28 AM

that's tough Jwalther.

Why do you think you blew up on this event?

Splash

Just not fit/strong enough to hang. The group formed at mile 25 consisted of about dozen riders. By mile 75, there were five of us left, and another rider let go at the same time I did. She started to fall behind, and I dropped back to pick her up. We tried to catch the group, but reached a mutual decision to let them go. We were both toast by that point.

shovelhd

04-25-2016, 07:10 AM

If you want to overlay ANT+ data with race footage, you can use Dashware or Virb Edit. 25c tires typically roll faster at lower tire pressures but it depends on the wheel and tire. Tight bearing seals or bearings can negate those gains.

Again, I would advise to stop chasing technology and looking for shortcuts. Unless you are a natural athlete, which very few of us are, it's going to take years to learn how to listen to your body, and know what power output to use and when, and what the consequences are, on any given day. Structured training is a great way to develop this sense. I urge you to get the book, read it, and start one of the sample programs. Take notes after each workout. Write down how you felt before, during, and after each workout.

Black Dog

04-25-2016, 09:40 AM

Splash, when I read you asking about things such as tire width and the resulting differences in power transfer I haver to say that you are chasing the wrong things; completely. Most of the things that you are asking about here and in other threads are not going to make you faster on a scale that you will notice. It is background noise. You need to ride more and start a basic training schedule. You need to ignore the tech and focus on the engine (you). You want to ride faster you do not need lots of tech. Lots of focused KM's will get you there and it is not complicated. Once you are getting fast you can then use the tech to squeeze out the last few % points in performance. There are no short cuts, and no amount of $ that will by you real speed. The pros are not fast because of the tech, they are fast because of the basic training and experience. The tech buys them the small differences that get them on the podium. Tech is about the last few millimetres of the journey and the basic training is about the preceding KM's. Have as much fun focusing on the tech as you wish, but not at the expense of what really matters and makes up the 98% of equation.

Please do not read this as being harsh or dismissive, There are a lot of people hear with a lot of experience and knowledge, and they are giving you some great advice, however, your patter of questions seems to indicate that your focus is misplaced for the situation you are in and the goals that you are chasing. Let them help you learn to walk before you try to run. :D

lovethesport

04-25-2016, 10:01 AM

Well expressed Black Dog...

benb

04-25-2016, 10:12 AM

Yes indeed.. unless this group ride is 8 hours if you put in the training you'll be able to stay with the group even if your bike is 25lbs and has cross tires.

makoti

04-25-2016, 01:07 PM

Splash, when I read you asking about things such as tire width and the resulting differences in power transfer I haver to say that you are chasing the wrong things; completely. Most of the things that you are asking about here and in other threads are going to make you faster on a scale that you will notice. It is background noise. You need to ride more and start a basic training schedule. You need to ignore the tech and focus on the engine (you). You want to ride faster you do not need lots of tech. Lots of focused KM's will get you there and it is not complicated. Once you are getting fast you can then use the tech to squeeze out the last few % points in performance. There are no short cuts, and no amount of $ that will by you real speed. The pros are not fast because of the tech, they are fast because of the basic training and experience. The tech buys them the small differences that get them on the podium. Tech is about the last few millimetres of the journey and the basic training is about the preceding KM's. Have as much fun focusing on the tech as you wish, but not at the expense of what really matters and makes up the 98% of equation.

Please do not read this as being harsh or dismissive, There are a lot of people hear with a lot of experience and knowledge, and they are giving you some great advice, however, your patter of questions seems to indicate that your focus is misplaced for the situation you are in and the goals that you are chasing. Let them help you learn to walk before you try to run. :D

Well said, BD. Remember, Splash - I.T.M.: It's the Motor.

carpediemracing

04-25-2016, 02:28 PM

Splash, although I've been the one posting a lot of answers to your questions, the thing is that all my thoughts are details. They support you, the rider. Yes, you can benefit from my advice, at least I hope you can, but you need to think about how each component of your riding affects your overall riding ability.

For example, the 23c vs 25c tire debate - that's a very small aspect of the whole cycling thing. It might be a tenth of a mph at most, and in fact I think it'd be hard to measure in real time except in special situations (dirt roads etc). I understand the "incremental gains" thing, but I don't think you're at that point, based on your questions.

For hills you'll get the most benefit from training of course. For flat stuff it's reading the wind, and, if you're pulling, your own position's aero. For downhills I think it's a combination of weight/mass and cornering skills. For both flats and downhills it's crucial to be able to ride comfortably in a group.

Look for the low hanging fruit, the stuff that will get you massive gains, usually for free. Knowing how to sit in shelter is free and can be worth a couple hundred watts. Knowing how to corner (in a group!) is worth tons, like if you're soft pedaling to get on wheels versus sprinting to get on wheels, that's huge.

You have aero wheels, you ride in the drops, so on paper it sounds good. Be brutally honest with yourself though. Is your overall body position beneficial for faster riding? Or is your body a "radiator" in the wind (that's how Hamsten described himself as he thought he wasn't very aero). Are you good in a group? Can you corner well or do corners feel like they're not really flowing well? Etc etc.

livingminimal

04-25-2016, 02:39 PM

Please get a coach, or buy a boxed training plan on TP.

carpediemracing

04-25-2016, 05:23 PM

I would argue that your first and best move is to optimize your group riding techniques/tactics. You'll need to practice this but it has nothing to do with training per se, coaches in the traditional sense, etc. It's just a matter of you learning how to ride fluently within a group.

On solo rides I struggle like mad to do 17-18 mph for an hour - I might avg 175w doing so (I found a ride I did at random, 17.7 mph in 2014 (https://www.strava.com/activities/153590889), basically a flat route, averaged 174w). In a group, like a race, I have done the same 175w avg and have done 27.5 mph (Tour of Somerville, Cat 2, 2011). Okay, no Strava for that, but in this race (Limerock, May, 2015 (https://www.strava.com/activities/297501946)) I averaged 157w for the race, did 25.7 miles in 1:04, and got 3rd in the race.

Figuring out group riding (reading wind, sitting on wheels, etc) is low hanging fruit because you can do it tomorrow, with no additional training, no equipment changes, nothing, because it has nothing to do with any of that. It had to do with tactics, meaning your brain. No coaches necessary, no training plans. It's free and it's what most riders are missing.

Cornering is similarly overlooked, although the benefits are less obvious. Cornering is free, requires no additional training, no coach, just some knowledge on your side and practice. I practice when I drive, when I push a shopping cart, whenever I approach a corner I've never seen before (in a car, on a bike, etc). I enjoy gokarts for this because I get to approach new corners with the express intent of going as fast as possible, and gas karts have poor low end power, making cornering lines much more important than in electric karts. Corner poorly on a descent and you'll watch the others literally coast away from you at high speed. Corner well and you'll wonder why everyone is going so slowly. Or, if it's a group ride, you'll think "Man, I wish I knew the route so I could pass the guy in front of me".

As always the disclaimer - hills are about w/kg, there is very little beyond that, and if you're not within range of the required w/kg then it'll be very difficult to change that. It's just an unfortunate reality.

Black Dog

04-25-2016, 05:26 PM

Engine...Technique................................ ..............Technology.

In that order. The 1st two are very important the 3rd far less.

Splash

04-25-2016, 05:42 PM

Some fantastic ongoing input into this thread. Awesome!

Please to say I have just enlisted a coach. :-)

I look forward to reporting back on step change improvement over the next few months.

Splash

gasman

04-25-2016, 08:55 PM

Some fantastic ongoing input into this thread. Awesome!

Please to say I have just enlisted a coach. :-)

I look forward to reporting back on step change improvement over the next few months.

Splash

You will be pleased if you follow what he says to do.:D

ripvanrando

04-26-2016, 07:05 AM

nooneline

04-26-2016, 08:37 AM

carpediemracing

04-26-2016, 11:46 AM

I'm always blown away by how low the race wattages you report are, aki. I consider myself a rider with decent pack skills and energy conservation skills, and I'm also a fair bit lighter than you - but my average power in a cat 1/2 crit is usually 15-25% higher than what you report.

I only report what I see on my SRM :)

In terms of riding I'm extremely conservative most of the time (aka "wheelsucker"). I'm sure you've seen me say over and over that my goal in a one hour crit is to see less than 60 seconds of wind before the last lap. We're talking 60 seconds of wind including crosswinds. 10 or 12 seconds of wind for me is an eternity, it's like someone hacking at my legs with a machete.

For a long time I kept thinking that my SRM is screwed up, to the point that I did a full on calibration a couple times (using 50 lbs in weights, plus chains etc, so it was a lot of weight, there were some big numbers in the calculations). Calibration was spot on. Also my max wattages are in line with my speeds, and my avg wattage is in line with my (very poor) time trialing and climbing "skills".

The Cat 2 Tour of Somerville (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O7hgXTzodA) was astounding, even to me. It was the fastest race I'd done fully confirmed on a downloadable computer (27.5 mph) and I averaged 175w until I got caught behind one of 3 or 4 crashes in the last lap. What's funny is that I "time trialed" to the line so the Missus wouldn't worry about me because I would be missing on the finish. I did something like 285w or so for most of a lap (a mile? whatever it was I absolutely exploded making the effort) and it bumped my average power up into the 180s. However that last bit, on my own, I only managed to do 24 mph. It took me 100 more watts to go 3.5 mph slower, although granted I did slow for the crash.

Some riders will say, "well, if you were up front you wouldn't have gotten caught behind the crashes". Yes, that's true, but if I spent significantly more energy I wouldn't be in a position to sprint. Averaging 175w going into the sprint I am guessing I could have done a 1250w jump and sustained close to 1100w for just under 20 seconds. That realistically won't win but it would be interesting to see how I could have placed. In races I will work as little as possible to make the sprint, and in the 2s I trusted the field to hold together and figured the last half lap would be tricky. I missed by a hundred meters or so.

The prior year, as a 3, I spent a LOT of energy staying near the front, and I had maybe 2 or 3 pedal strokes in the sprint before I blew. I don't have the data in front of me but I'm guessing I did maybe a 700-800w jump and I sprinted for maybe 2 seconds, that's all I had left. I hit a max of 1100+w somewhere earlier in the race, a regular jump out of a turn or something. I averaged 201w in the 3s. We went 27 mph I think, so a touch slower. I had a purpose for going hard - just before the race a friend told me to stay up front or at the back because "they'll be crashing like fools". I had no plan going into the race so I decided that was a good enough plan. He was right - a few guys I knew ended up in the hospital that race and a lot of others crashed.

nooneline

04-26-2016, 12:00 PM

In terms of riding I'm extremely conservative most of the time (aka "wheelsucker"). I'm sure you've seen me say over and over that my goal in a one hour crit is to see less than 60 seconds of wind before the last lap. We're talking 60 seconds of wind including crosswinds. 10 or 12 seconds of wind for me is an eternity, it's like someone hacking at my legs with a machete.

Yeah - and the level of technical skills required to pull that off is pretty significant. Every time you touch your brakes due to a corner, a shimmy in the field in front of you, or whatever, you have to do a little microjump to get that speed back. When I first started looking at race data (I've had a PM for less than a year), I was shocked at the number of high-watt jumps that I did over the course of an hour long race - and I realized why I have a very hard time doing good race-finishing efforts.

Joachim

04-26-2016, 12:25 PM

If you dont have a fast sprint, hiding like that will get you nowhere ie, you need more watts, a better ftp however you want to put it, which is for the majority of riders. Just telling what I see from a ton of SRM race data.

shovelhd

04-26-2016, 12:36 PM

I've raced with Aki many times. Led him out a few times as well. Getting him from the back to the front of the field is very tricky. He can lose my wheel in an instant, and it has nothing to do with his confidence or pack handling skills. If I dig too deep he suffers, backs off, and we have to start again. He truly has a pathetic FTP, but his nose for the draft is better than anyone I've ever ridden with. He is the definition of a pure sprinter. This is why I cringe when he makes those long posts with numbers, as if others can aspire to imitate them. They can't. They'll lose. He wins because he has an elite level jump coupled with a solid Cat3 sprint. He wins with his jump, not his sprint.

ergott

04-26-2016, 12:41 PM

I don't have the data in front of me but I'm guessing I did maybe a 700-800w jump and I sprinted for maybe 2 seconds, that's all I had left.

What kind of 15sec to 1min power curve are you talking about?

It's interesting to read since that kind of kick is my strong point, but I really don't race anymore. I do have a power meter though.

Joachim

04-26-2016, 01:06 PM

This is why I cringe when he makes those long posts with numbers, as if others can aspire to imitate them. They can't. They'll lose.

And this is my point. You can't use the exception as the rule, since it doesn't apply to the majority looking for advice. 99% of riders will need a higher FTP than 200w to be competitive in a cat 2/3 race.

nooneline

04-26-2016, 01:24 PM

And this is my point. You can't use the exception as the rule, since it doesn't apply to the majority looking for advice. 99% of riders will need a higher FTP than 200w to be competitive in a cat 2/3 race.

Most definitely.

But there's also another lesson in CDR's posts about numbers. Many people train power, but they forget to train speed - and, more importantly, speed efficiency. Getting more speed for less power. The lesson is that smarts and skills can make up for deficiencies in power.

Joachim

04-26-2016, 02:52 PM

Most definitely.

But there's also another lesson in CDR's posts about numbers. Many people train power, but they forget to train speed - and, more importantly, speed efficiency. Getting more speed for less power. The lesson is that smarts and skills can make up for deficiencies in power.

Well speed and power are related when you know what you are doing with training (hopefully the increase in power will make you ride faster :)). Drafting trucks is not training for speed. I agree, riders need to know how to move around in a bunch and save where they can, sit out of the wind etc, but don't throw around numbers that are not applicable for most riders. To quote Shovel "cringe when I read...". Exactly. I sincerely hope that Splash responds well to the workouts and that he will notice a subsequent increase in power and speed.

shovelhd

04-26-2016, 05:24 PM

Whenever anyone posts numbers, here or anywhere, they should be taken for what they are worth. Numbers. That's it. They apply to the poster and only to the poster. This should not need to be said, but too often it has to be said. The same thing goes for the ewang chart created by Coggan. The numbers are relative. They are not a prescription for success at the level in the left column.

Back to sprinting. A lot of it is genetics and the rest of it is hard, specific training. Training your jump is very different than training for your FTP. If you don't have the genetics then you have to work very hard to maximize what you are given. This conflicts with threshold training so it has to be properly managed.

carpediemracing

04-26-2016, 09:36 PM

And this is my point. You can't use the exception as the rule, since it doesn't apply to the majority looking for advice. 99% of riders will need a higher FTP than 200w to be competitive in a cat 2/3 race.

If you dont have a fast sprint, hiding like that will get you nowhere ie, you need more watts, a better ftp however you want to put it, which is for the majority of riders. Just telling what I see from a ton of SRM race data.

Yes, and no. When I started with the powermeter I was getting outclassed/beaten with 1200w jumps left and right. I wasn't as light as I got a bit later, but still, I got pretty demoralized when I'd do a massive sprint (based on the powermeter) and have nothing to show for it.

Then, as I got more data (from me and from other riders) I realized that positioning in the sprint makes a huge difference in necessary power. In the sprints where it's been absolutely critical, I've done massive work for me and I've had much less in reserve for the actual sprint. One of my most nervous races was in 2010 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqrPW4FWyQg) - I absolutely had to get top 7 while beating Bryan. I don't have my power numbers handy but my best peak was 1200w and it was a minute into the race. My sprint jump was substantially lower (I can't remember but I'm guessing in the 1000-1050w range - data from that time is on a backup drive somewhere). However it was enough to at least beat everyone else in the field (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Off22q820tU) with a comfortable margin. I threw my bike per my habit and the guy that won did so out of the break that was away at 2 to go. One of the riders I pass (in orange) turned pro I think that year, maybe the next year. He's much stronger than pretty much anyone out there but teams working together on a non-selective course neutralized him.

In this race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbg4YluM6HE) I only have 12 min of power data (apparently I didn't look down at my SRM until 12 min before the end of the race and my speed pickup wasn't lined up so it never autostarted - I hit Mode and it started the computer). However I did capture some good data. The critical stuff is that in the last half lap of the race, when I won the race, my max power was 912w. The move that moved me clear of the field was 808w. I did a number of little jumps, my 30s was 609w so as high as it gets for me, my minute was 539w so a bit below the 600-ish I did in my best ever minute. Although it was a good move, clean, and I committed, it was a move that involved no real "jump" per se, at least nothing above what most riders can do. Okay, fine, it took me 30 odd years of racing to win a race like this (heh) but such moves are possible.

What is significant is that the prior week of racing a similar move won the M45 race. All the protagonists were looking at each other, someone gapped the field going into the last turn, looked back, realized they'd gifted him a gap, and sprinted to the line. I think, in fact, he's the guy that gets second to be in the sprint. I'm betting that his numbers when he won aren't too far off of mine. Virtually identical scenario, and he won it also.

But there's also another lesson in CDR's posts about numbers. Many people train power, but they forget to train speed - and, more importantly, speed efficiency. Getting more speed for less power. The lesson is that smarts and skills can make up for deficiencies in power.

Bolded the point that I over-wordily try to drive home.

What kind of 15sec to 1min power curve are you talking about?

It's interesting to read since that kind of kick is my strong point, but I really don't race anymore. I do have a power meter though.

I don't have a good curve as I captured some wonky data when my spider battery was dying (3000w max etc). This may goad me into deleting those rides and seeing my numbers because I've never done an analysis because, you know, power doesn't matter that much :) Basically though my better race numbers are something like:

Peak: 1100-1250w (training 1550w)
5s: 1000-1200w
10s: 900-1150w
18s: 800-1100w (I generally don't actually sprint for 20s so I look at 18s)
30s: no idea
60s: 450-550w
5m: 290w?
20m: 220w? 230w in testing?
60m: 205w? Actual wattage for an hour, not FTP.

I've exceeded the peak and 60s numbers in training (peak) or in exceptional races (60s). My 5-18s numbers are as good as they get and I hit them pretty consistently. My 23s numbers for many, many rides on Zwift (so on the trainer, taken from my SRM, not from Zwift) have been in the 950w range, although right now they're more like 800w.

As shovel pointed out, my kick is my only really strong point. My sprint is truly average for a Cat 3 - there are a number of clips where I'm going the same speed as everyone else. My jump might get me a length or two. I'm convinced that my aggressive aero wheel choice also helps me, based on the 1 mph = 1.5 feet/second. A 10 second sprint, if my wheels get me 1 mph, means 15 feet for free.

Someone elsewhere described me as a vial of nitroglycerin. You have to carry me around really carefully and set me off at the right time. If you do it right it's good. Rattle me around a little early and it's just a mess. I've had leadout guys ride me right off their wheel because they started too early. I do like a fast leadout but I want my leadout man to hit the wind at 400m or less. I'm best at a 100-150m sprint, although I can go, and have gone, 200-300m if I have to.

carpediemracing

04-26-2016, 09:49 PM

I had the reply written a couple hours ago but hadn't hit post. Just did now.

One thing about jumps - it's really something you have. I tell people that if you find yourself in the following situations then you have a good jump (and sprint):

- you think you jumped on the wrong lap because no one else jumped.
- you think the line must be elsewhere (in a road race or similar) because no one else jumped.
- you back off on the town line sprint because no one else jumped.
- you think everyone just gifted you the sprint for whatever reason.

I never thought of myself as a sprinter when I started. I was super skinny, super light (under 100 lbs when I started, 103 lbs when I was 18 in college, 112 lbs when I was 21, etc). Even when I was that skinny 18 I could jump and sprint well and I couldn't climb for anything. Now that I'm much heavier (170 lbs currently) and much older (will turn 49 this year) it's the same, just that I'm slower. I have lost 20% of my speed in the sprint. My jump is maybe 2/5 of what it was, based on bike lengths I'd get when I'd jump.

I did do some specific sprint work when I was in my 20s. Nowadays I don't do any specific sprint work except some of the Zwift shorter efforts (30 seconds or less) on the trainer. Since I haven't ridden outside since Aug 4 of last year I'm all Zwift right now.