Gravelly Frame Choices / Sizing Puzzle

[dem]

Sold a bike.. buy a bike..

I want to make a bike for 90% road, 10% trails, carbon frameset/fork, something like 700x35 file tread, ultra low gearing, and hydraulic disc. I'd prefer thru axles all around.

That means I'd prefer a road bias, and lightweight, but I don't really know what that means. Geometry, angles, etc are all over the place. Other than not having a super high bottom bracket.

Some thoughts:
Scott CX 20 (assuming any can be found) - the weenie option and most expensive
Santa Cruz Stigmata (can actually be purchased)
Ridley X-Trail (maybe too tall head tube?)
Others?

I currently ride a Parlee XL (120 stem + one 10 mm spacer and the conical spacer) which seems to put me between most of the sizes on these other bikes. Do I err on the large side or the small side? What says "too small" and what says "too big"? And why would I bias one way or another? Of course no LBS stocks any of this stuff.

Halp!

http://www.haphazard.com/bikes/Z5geo.jpg

[oldfatslow]

Check out this deliciousness.

http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/221977447985




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dem]

That Miracle frame was on my list, but by my math, I'd need to run a 130 stem and a stack of spacers, which is part of the "smaller" vs. "bigger" question.

Miracle geo:
http://www.miraclebikes.com/web/userfiles/FM286-G.jpg

[MikeD]

I would say that you don't want an overly long stem on a gravel bike. 120 is too long, I would say. Most people run a higher handlebar position and a bit less reach to the bars for more control and comfort. Consider more stand over height than a road bike too.

[John H.]

Stigmata is a nice bike.
58 stigmata is almost identical to your xl Parlee.
Match the stack and reach to your road bike.
Do not fear a long stem, you ride a fairly big bike.
120-130 is proportional for your size.
In terms of reach you might want overall reach to be slightly shorter as the hydraulic levers sit a little further out- otherwise keep it pretty close to your road bike.
Some like the front end higher, but for 90% road, I would keep it pretty close to your road bike.

[thirdgenbird]

I would say that you don't want an overly long stem on a gravel bike. 120 is too long, I would say.

Why do you say that?

At 6'1" my experience has been the opposite. Maybe bad luck, but I have disliked every frame I've tried that put me on a stem shorter than 120mm. I assume it's because I prefer the handling with a little weight over the front end.

My yeti sort of defies trends (high bb and 130mm stem with no spacers) but I feel completely comfortable doing slow speed technical stuff, diving it into turns, and bombing down 40mph+ descents.

[holliscx]

You lost me at discs for 90% road

[oldpotatoe]

You lost me at discs for 90% road

tee, hee...:D

[grawk]

depends on how the conditions are for the other 10%. Always spec your brakes for the worst conditions, not the typical ones.

[PaMtbRider]

I would say that you don't want an overly long stem on a gravel bike. 120 is too long, I would say. Most people run a higher handlebar position and a bit less reach to the bars for more control and comfort. Consider more stand over height than a road bike too.

I would disagree with this. Dave Kirk designed my gravel bike with a 130 stem. Overall reach is very slightly shorter than my road bike which also has a 130 stem.

[dem]

Oh, I should add I already have a 35 pound steel SOMA double cross with cantis, fenders, and a rack as my rain/commuter.

I have taken it on many inappropriate rides on 700x25 slicks with no real issues except 1) it's not much fun on the road due to components, setup, tires 2) descending 20% dirt trail/fire roads requires going very slowly on slicks, which is extremely painful on the hands (hence the hydro discs)

Stigmata 58 looks like the leader at the moment, despite it being pretty expensive for the weight. Anyone got a deal?!

https://instagram.fsjc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/t51.2885-15/e35/12393609_959820164086077_1964912697_n.jpg?ig_cache _key=MTE0NDMxNjQ2MDk5NDUyNTEyMQ%3D%3D.2

[p nut]

Do you really need 700x35 file tread for 10% dirt? I'd go 700x28-30 which should open up more options and make the other 90% of the ride more pleasant.

[hollowgram5]

I would disagree with this. Dave Kirk designed my gravel bike with a 130 stem. Overall reach is very slightly shorter than my road bike which also has a 130 stem.
I would agree with you. It's all about how you fit and feel on the frame. All of my drop bar bikes have 130 stems; 5 different roadies, a touring bike, a cross bike, and shortly a TwinSix RandoTi. Only 2 of the 8 bikes have the same geo, and they have exactly the same stack/reach so it was a simple set up. The rest took some measurements and some understanding of how I wanted the bike to feel under me.

[sandyrs]

A few thoughts:

1) For 90% road I would stick to high-volume slick tires like Compass. Sure side knobs will be nice for your 10% trail time but that means subpar/inconsistent cornering ninety percent of your ride. Not worth it. Bon Jon Pass tires have a tubeless bead and at 700x35mm are a great option. If you really want a tread on your tires do your tires a favor and use them on the dirt more than 10% of the time or they will be going to waste!

2) Frame weight does not belong in this conversation. All the options you mentioned are plenty light for TA disc. If you care about weight stick to centerpulls or medium reach caliper brakes. Thru axles and discs do not a light bike make, nor does the extra bit of weight make one lick of difference on the dirt. For pure road rides I'd assume you'd still take your road bike which I'm guessing is quite light!

3) I'll echo thirdgenbird's idea that there is nothing wrong with a longer stem on this kind of bike. I have 120's on both my cross bikes and they handle fantastically.

4) That Soma is rad.

[echelon_john]

Niner RLT9 ticks the boxes...and is sized right for the tall gentleman.

[sandyrs]

Niner RLT9 ticks the boxes...and is sized right for the tall gentleman.

This is very true. Turner Cyclosys too, if we're bringing metal in to the equation (which I think makes sense for this type of bike).

[dem]

Bon Jon 700x35 tubeless is exactly what I was thinking.

Niner looks nice, but Alu. Maybe I should think it.

[sandyrs]

Bon Jon 700x35 tubeless is exactly what I was thinking.

Niner looks nice, but Alu. Maybe I should think it.

:hello:

[echelon_john]

Niner also does a carbon version.
http://www.ninerbikes.com/BSB9RDO

[MikeD]

Why do you say that?



At 6'1" my experience has been the opposite. Maybe bad luck, but I have disliked every frame I've tried that put me on a stem shorter than 120mm. I assume it's because I prefer the handling with a little weight over the front end.



My yeti sort of defies trends (high bb and 130mm stem with no spacers) but I feel completely comfortable doing slow speed technical stuff, diving it into turns, and bombing down 40mph+ descents.


It's not so much the length of the stem, but the longer front-center. More stability on downhills and endo prevention. Proven in mountain bikes; short stems, wide bars, and longer front-centers are the norm there now. More comfort with a longer frame as well. If you're just riding pavement, then no issue, but we are talking about riding dirt. It also helps with toe overlap. You don't want toe overlap either.

[sandyrs]

It's not so much the length of the stem, but the longer front-center. More stability on downhills and endo prevention. Proven in mountain bikes; short stems, wide bars, and longer front-centers are the norm there now. More comfort with a longer frame as well. If you're just riding pavement, then no issue, but we are talking about riding dirt. It also helps with toe overlap. You don't want toe overlap either.

How does frame "length" have an effect on comfort if the reach to the bars is the same?

Also, we are talking about riding dirt 10% of the time. Aside from the fact that mountain bikes and the bike being discussed are both used off-road in some capacity, they have just about nothing in common. I love my mountain bike with a short stem, wide bars, and slack head tube angle but I don't want my cross bike (which I use for road rides too) to handle like it.

[thirdgenbird]

Eliminating toe overlap is overrated. Beyond some scuffs on my shoes, it's never been an issue for me.

[MikeD]

How does frame "length" have an effect on comfort if the reach to the bars is the same?

Also, we are talking about riding dirt 10% of the time. Aside from the fact that mountain bikes and the bike being discussed are both used off-road in some capacity, they have just about nothing in common. I love my mountain bike with a short stem, wide bars, and slack head tube angle but I don't want my cross bike (which I use for road rides too) to handle like it.


It has to do with the angle at which the bike pitches when you hit a bump. Longer wheelbase, less of an angle. Personally, I would not buy any kind of bike where I had to put an overly long stem on it; like a 130. It's indicative of a bike that doesn't fit.

These are my opinions. It all depends what kind or dirt you will be riding. I think cyclocross bikes make terrible gravel bikes. The bottom bracket is too high, the geometry too steep and compact, the max tire width too narrow, and the gearing not low enough. YMMV

[thirdgenbird]

A 130 stem is absolutely no indication of poor fit.

We are talking about a road bike that will occasionally get used off-road.

[hollowgram5]

A 130 stem is absolutely no indication of poor fit.

We are talking about a road bike that will occasionally get used off-road.
Agreed! :beer: :hello:

[bobswire]

A 130 stem is absolutely no indication of poor fit.

We are talking about a road bike that will occasionally get used off-road.

This is what can happen when your weight is forward of center. :eek:

https://gifs.com/gif/OYXmwE

[thirdgenbird]

This is what can happen when your weight is forward of center. :eek:

https://gifs.com/gif/OYXmwE

That video had nothing to do with a stem that's 2cm "too long" and everything to do with what happens when something (a hand in this case) instantly stops your wheel.

[bobswire]

That video had nothing to do with a stem that's 2cm "too long" and everything to do with what happens when something (a hand in this case) instantly stops your wheel.

Denial.....:D A shorter stem means and he wouldn't have had to lean so far over to reach his wheel.

[AllanVarcoe]

I currently ride a Parlee XL (120 stem + one 10 mm spacer and the conical spacer) which seems to put me between most of the sizes on these other bikes. Do I err on the large side or the small side? What says "too small" and what says "too big"? And why would I bias one way or another? Of course no LBS stocks any of this stuff.

Halp!


How about a custom frame build? Great way to get a bike that does everything you want and fit how you want!

[PaMtbRider]

...Personally, I would not buy any kind of bike where I had to put an overly long stem on it; like a 130. It's indicative of a bike that doesn't fit....

These are my opinions.


I would agree if we were talking about a 50 cm frame. Look at any of the bikes in the 60-62cm range designed by builders such as Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, Dave Wages, i.e. established,well respected builders. Almost will always see a bike with a 120 or 130 stem.

[dem]

How about a custom frame build? Great way to get a bike that does everything you want and fit how you want!

Custom would be sweet.. but I think might be a bit too extravagant, expense-wise.. although maybe if it turns into my full-time bike I could justify a frame swap! I like the way you think!

Still leaning Stigmata - the Niner RDO doesn't have the same geo as the RLT, more cross-ish.

(I have a Santa Cruz 5010 27.5 FS mountain bike too, but 90% of SF bay area trails don't require it, hence my idea of making big loops with mostly road and some dirt for variety and shortcuts.)

[benb]

Do you really need 700x35 file tread for 10% dirt? I'd go 700x28-30 which should open up more options and make the other 90% of the ride more pleasant.

I would say why not. If it's not your crit race bike and you choose the big tires correctly you're not giving much up... yesterday I rode 700x38 file tread on my space horse (27lbs all equipped) and averaged the exact same speed I averaged today on my Domane (17lbs?) with 700x28 slicks. Yesterday's ride had some more intense effort in it but it also had about 1/3 dirt.

If you pick the right tire and inflate it correctly the big tires really aren't that slow and even if it's only 10% dirt if the streets are 90% sh*t like they are here the big tire gives you benefit the whole ride.

I had never rode a file tread till late last year.. I absolutely love file tread now None of the buzziness of a true cross or MTB tire on the road, quite quick, and they actually shed mud incredibly well so they are quite good off road in some conditions. The ones I have (Challenge Gravel Grinder) have knobs on the side and they pretty much are never noticeable on the road in hard cornering but they do help a bit cornering off road.

[sandyrs]

Custom would be sweet.. but I think might be a bit too extravagant, expense-wise.. although maybe if it turns into my full-time bike I could justify a frame swap! I like the way you think!

Still leaning Stigmata - the Niner RDO doesn't have the same geo as the RLT, more cross-ish.

(I have a Santa Cruz 5010 27.5 FS mountain bike too, but 90% of SF bay area trails don't require it, hence my idea of making big loops with mostly road and some dirt for variety and shortcuts.)

If you aren't committed to carbon there are numerous custom options that will come in below the price of, say a Stigmata...

And one comes to mind (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1955323&postcount=56) that comes in just a bit higher...

[alembical]

Dem,

After seeing your setup on the Soma, I don't understand your concern with the headtube height on the Ridley. The Ridley will allow your bars to be lower than you are running them on the Soma now. I do know that a lot of people say to downsize on the Ridley in particular, although I did not and am very happy with my X-trail.

[2metalhips]

I test rode a Stigmata, that is a very stiff frame, too stiff for my taste. YMMV

[dem]

Dem,

After seeing your setup on the Soma, I don't understand your concern with the headtube height on the Ridley. The Ridley will allow your bars to be lower than you are running them on the Soma now. I do know that a lot of people say to downsize on the Ridley in particular, although I did not and am very happy with my X-trail.

SOMA is not set up the way I would set up my road bike, I set that up as more of a commuter. Also, X-trail seem out of stock around the world, so it's not an option any more. :(

Parlee is set up closer:
http://www.haphazard.com/bikes/parleedone.jpg

[alembical]

beautiful Parlee

[EDS]

What about something like the Salsa Warbird?

[alembical]

I hear good things about the Warbird as well, but I think it is like the Ridley and impossible to find.

[AllanVarcoe]

Custom would be sweet.. but I think might be a bit too extravagant, expense-wise.. although maybe if it turns into my full-time bike I could justify a frame swap! I like the way you think!


Check some pricing out. Google custom builders in your area. Some will build you a frame and fork for less than you think. It's a lot more attainable/feasible than you may think.

:banana:

[MikeD]

You might check out the Giant Anyroad Comax. I like the fact that it has clearance for 45mm tires, if you want that option. The Cannondale Slate is an interesting bike with front suspension.

How about converting a rigid mountain bike to drop bars and running narrower, less aggressive tires?

You could also go with a road bike that takes wider tires and use a tough tire like a Vittoria Open Pave that can take riding in gravel without cutting the sidewall.