Pedaling technique

[Brucer]

A year or two ago, someone writing in a thread mentioned in passing that he exerts more effort when he pedals by jamming his toes forward until he feels them pressing against the front of his shoes. It was one of those off-hand comments that stuck in my mind, and I've done it myself ever since. I'm not sure if it makes the slightest bit of difference to my speed, power or other whoop-dee-doo, but it makes me feel as if I'm trying harder and getting more out of the bike. That's a good feeling. So to whoever said it, thanks!

[verbs4us]

Years ago, in Greg Lemond's book, I read that he recommended pulling the foot backwards on the stroke between about 4 or 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock. Previously, I had applied power mainly on the down stroke only and, as you say, jamming forward. Since reading his book, I tried his "horizontal pull" on hills and find that it leads to a smoother stroke and faster climbing while seated. His book is ages old, so that advice might have been superceded two or three times by now!

[Tickdoc]

Years ago, in Greg Lemond's book, I read that he recommended pulling the foot backwards on the stroke between about 4 or 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock. Previously, I had applied power mainly on the down stroke only and, as you say, jamming forward. Since reading his book, I tried his "horizontal pull" on hills and find that it leads to a smoother stroke and faster climbing while seated. His book is ages old, so that advice might have been superceded two or three times by now!

I remember that advice, and promptly pulled my Achilles' tendon putting that technique to work.

I'll leave the toe cramming to ballerinas.

Just pedal. The body knows how to do that instinctively.

[Russian bear]

Things that I found helped me keep my pedal stroke smooth: spinning high cadence on rollers and very low cadence (50-60 rpm) threshold work.

But really, when push comes to shove during a race I dont think about any of that stuff. You just gotta put the watts down.

[malcolm]

calling Ti designs

[leftyfreak]

calling Ti designs

Hey, that's what I was going to say! Especially as pertains to this comment:


Just pedal. The body knows how to do that instinctively.

[Ti Designs]

Just pedal. The body knows how to do that instinctively.

Yeh, I put together a web site about that...

www.edsasslercoaching.com

In a few weeks there will be T-shirts available too...

[572cv]

Talk about sticking in your mind, the thread that tidesigns put up about his coaching approach was fascinating. At my age, I need anything I can find to make best use of what is left of the ol body. It is pretty clear after trying to use some of his techniques that:
- he's right. Your legs know how to walk and run, but not necessarily how to ride.
- if you don't instinctively already do what he is coaching - and some probably do, I'm guessing Lemond figured it out - you have to learn it.
- with practice, I have found that if I think about it, I can get into the technique that allows me to use a different muscle group, and I assume it is somewhat my gluteus, at least. If I don't concentrate, I forget, fall back into the old ways.
- when I DO get into the rhythm I'm trying for, I find that proverbial extra gear, and I am movng faster with less struggle.
- when out on the road, the best thing I have done is to try to have a mental image of my knees coming up as high as possible at the top of the stroke. That seems to work for me.
- this doesn't look like a magic bullet, but rather a way to distribute effort more effectively. Also, it makes riding more interesting by giving it another dimension. Im really grateful to tidesigns and to this forum for encouraging me to think about this idea !

[ultraman6970]

IME. and this how was done many years ago with kids...

Fix gear.

[leftyfreak]

Yeh, I put together a web site about that...

www.edsasslercoaching.com

In a few weeks there will be T-shirts available too...

Oooooh, can I get one? I'd wear a jersey too, but you've got to make sure the sleeves are actually long if you make a long sleeve version.

[dgauthier]

What, one legged drills are too old school now?

[makoti]

IME. and this how was done many years ago with kids...

Fix gear.

That would do it.

[MattTuck]

Jamming your toes forward does not sound like a normative pedaling technique that should be promulgated do the cycling public.

[FlashUNC]

That sounds like awful advice, unless you're aiming for bunions.

[ultraman6970]

Fix gear, with toe straps no straps and with a very light gearing. Or you pedal right or you will start jumping over the saddle and your feet will get off the pedals big time.

Or you round the pedaling or you round your pedaling, no other way around. Now a days there's so much ideas of what is perfect and stuff but it depends a lot of the rider, thats the point of fix gearing, it goes beyond that.

[oldpotatoe]

my toes hurt..

[Ti Designs]

Fix gear.

Let's try this again. There's this thing called the learning process. For motor skills (note: it says ALL, pedaling is not excluded) there is a three step process in learning the skill.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/learning-process-when-acquiring-motor-skills-similar-for-all-individuals

In putting someone on a fixed gear you have eliminated any cognitive control - there's no chance of failure and correction. You've tried to skip the first two steps and go right to the third. That in teaching terms is called the sink or swim method. A few figure it out, most drown.

The alarming thing in this thread is that most people don't really get the learning process. For each case of the learning process working well, I'm finding countless examples of it being skipped. YouTube is probably the best example, people watch a video and think they know how to do something. How does that work??? Pedaling a bike is it's own special case because the pedals and cranks control the movement. The cognitive stage in most cases doesn't happen because the cranks are always going to move in a circle. Then there's the "I ride for fun" line. Being good at something is it's own reward. You could argue that ignorance is bliss, not knowing you suck at something makes it all better, but being good at it is way more fun.

[fuzzalow]

Being good at something is it's own reward.

Yes. The simplest statements are the most profound.

All of cycling is fulla people that think they know how to do something because they have been doin' that way for X umpteen years. Which is just a fancy way of sayin' they never really knew why they did what they did but still consider themselves experts. Stupendous logic in its own right.

Good technique is a good thing. And there are lotsa different techniques to approach, solve and foster greater skill in any athletic activity, so find & refine a method that works for you. But just thinkin' anybody can just be good at something outta thin air is just crazy.

[Mark McM]

Years ago, in Greg Lemond's book, I read that he recommended pulling the foot backwards on the stroke between about 4 or 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock. Previously, I had applied power mainly on the down stroke only and, as you say, jamming forward. Since reading his book, I tried his "horizontal pull" on hills and find that it leads to a smoother stroke and faster climbing while seated. His book is ages old, so that advice might have been superceded two or three times by now!

Lemond's book was written in the '80s, when it was still commonly believed that cyclists could "pedal circles" (i.e. push the pedals all the way around the revolution), and that this was the most effective way to pedal. Now we know that even if many cyclists think they are pushing the pedals all the way around the circle, they really aren't; even if we could push the pedals all the way around the circle, it would not be the most effective way to pedal.

But, old ideas die hard, and riders today are still trying push the pedals all the way around the circle - just as Frank Day, who is still selling his PowerCranks (https://www.powercranks.com/). He claims that training with his cranks can increase rider speed by 2-3 mph on average. Heck, I'm not sure even EPO can make that big a difference.

[verbs4us]

But, old ideas die hard, and riders today are still trying push the pedals all the way around the circle.

And what are you advocating instead? Pushing just between 1 o'clock and 5 o'clock? Something else?

[Ti Designs]

And what are you advocating instead? Pushing just between 1 o'clock and 5 o'clock? Something else?

Something else being pedal as well as you can...

To gauge this we're going to need some sort of measuring device. I'm gonna suggest the Pioneer power meter 'cause it gives force vectors (direction and magnitude) every 30 degrees. For this answer you don't need to own one, you just need to understand what the force vectors are telling you.

Pedaling in a true circle would imply that the force vector would always be at 90 degrees to the crank and the magnitude would be the same all the way around. That would limit your power output to the force your hip flexors can pull up on the pedals, which is pretty close to zero.

There's lots of really bad advice out there about using other muscle groups to add power to the pedal stroke - scraping mud off the shoe to engage the hamstrings or using power cranks to engage the hip flexors are two such cases. People think they are adding lots of power by using smaller muscles, the truth is they feed back information to your brain based on muscle tension, so they're telling you they're working really hard. The truth is they're tiny muscle groups generating almost nothing for power, you're better off working on the output of the larger muscle groups.

When I start teaching pedal stroke I explain the use of two muscle groups - glutes and quads. Glutes extend from the hip and push down, quads extend from the knee and push forward over the top. Learning how to use those two muscle groups effectively makes you much better than most. My advanced pedal stroke class looks at how to increase power by fine tuning the system. So here's the math: power = the sum of the vectors * (COS(crank direction - force direction)) That's just a way of looking both force magnitude and efficiency at any given point in the pedal stroke. If you're pushing straight down at the top or bottom of the pedal stroke, the amount of force doesn't matter 'cause none of it is making it to the back wheel. Given that model, there are three things we care about. 1) pushing in the right direction. 2) pushing hard enough - using large muscle groups to generate force. 3) maximizing the time that force in the right direction is generated.

Now that I've said that, I'm going to point out how it's wrong. There have been many studies of pro riders and their power numbers, the conclusions have been that pros push down harder. Much of this data came from first generation power meters - PowerTap hubs. Switching to crank and pedal based power meters, the data looks different. The sum of the force vectors doesn't increase that much, but there's a spike in force at one point. If a rider puts constant downward force on the pedal from 1:30 to 4:30, the efficiency of that force will go from 70% at 45 degrees to 100% at 90 degrees back to 70% at 135 degrees. If that sweep is narrowed from 90 degrees to 30 degrees there's almost 10% more power delivered to the rear wheel.

[unterhausen]

I have jammed my toes forward and really messed up my feet. Not only toenails, but I definitely kicked off a bad case of Morton's neuroma. I lose my toenails really easily if I bruise them, and pushing my toes forward definitely does that

I think I picked up a lot of good habits from fixed gear, but you can certainly learn to do the same thing on a geared bike

[dnc]

Something else being pedal as well as you can...

To gauge this we're going to need some sort of measuring device. I'm gonna suggest the Pioneer power meter 'cause it gives force vectors (direction and magnitude) every 30 degrees. For this answer you don't need to own one, you just need to understand what the force vectors are telling you.

Pedaling in a true circle would imply that the force vector would always be at 90 degrees to the crank and the magnitude would be the same all the way around. That would limit your power output to the force your hip flexors can pull up on the pedals, which is pretty close to zero.

There's lots of really bad advice out there about using other muscle groups to add power to the pedal stroke - scraping mud off the shoe to engage the hamstrings or using power cranks to engage the hip flexors are two such cases. People think they are adding lots of power by using smaller muscles, the truth is they feed back information to your brain based on muscle tension, so they're telling you they're working really hard. The truth is they're tiny muscle groups generating almost nothing for power, you're better off working on the output of the larger muscle groups.

When I start teaching pedal stroke I explain the use of two muscle groups - glutes and quads. Glutes extend from the hip and push down, quads extend from the knee and push forward over the top. Learning how to use those two muscle groups effectively makes you much better than most. My advanced pedal stroke class looks at how to increase power by fine tuning the system. So here's the math: power = the sum of the vectors * (COS(crank direction - force direction)) That's just a way of looking both force magnitude and efficiency at any given point in the pedal stroke. If you're pushing straight down at the top or bottom of the pedal stroke, the amount of force doesn't matter 'cause none of it is making it to the back wheel. Given that model, there are three things we care about. 1) pushing in the right direction. 2) pushing hard enough - using large muscle groups to generate force. 3) maximizing the time that force in the right direction is generated.

Now that I've said that, I'm going to point out how it's wrong. There have been many studies of pro riders and their power numbers, the conclusions have been that pros push down harder. Much of this data came from first generation power meters - PowerTap hubs. Switching to crank and pedal based power meters, the data looks different. The sum of the force vectors doesn't increase that much, but there's a spike in force at one point. If a rider puts constant downward force on the pedal from 1:30 to 4:30, the efficiency of that force will go from 70% at 45 degrees to 100% at 90 degrees back to 70% at 135 degrees. If that sweep is narrowed from 90 degrees to 30 degrees there's almost 10% more power delivered to the rear wheel.


When using your way of pedalling, how does estimated quad power over the top (11-1) compare with glute power around 3 o'c (2-4). Do you believe one technique is sufficient for all the demands of competitive cycling.

[numbskull]

.... There have been many studies of pro riders and their power numbers, .........The sum of the force vectors doesn't increase that much, but there's a spike in force at one point. If a rider puts constant downward force on the pedal from 1:30 to 4:30, the efficiency of that force will go from 70% at 45 degrees to 100% at 90 degrees back to 70% at 135 degrees. If that sweep is narrowed from 90 degrees to 30 degrees there's almost 10% more power delivered to the rear wheel.

Fascinating.

The wasted energy at the bottom of the stroke has always made sense but I'd not considered that energy can be wasted at the top of the stroke.

[Ti Designs]

When using your way of pedalling, how does estimated quad power over the top (11-1) compare with glute power around 3 o'c (2-4). Do you believe one technique is sufficient for all the demands of competitive cycling.

Quads generate leg speed, glutes generate torque - it's a difference of muscle size and mechanical advantage. Glutes are good for hill climbing, quads are good at accelerating and adding power to a system, which is what riding at speed on the flats is.

The bigger question is why would you only have one of the two skills. I see this a lot, the first thing I teach people is how to engage their glutes. It's a great source of power, it's also the basis for how you sit on the bike (I teach using glutes when doing fittings). It allows the rider to use their largest muscle group, going up hills gets easier and it takes the weight off the handlebars, so it makes the bike more comfortable - and they use that all the time.

There is no down side to having other skills. They don't add weight, there's no annual subscription fee (I need to work on that), and last I checked other skills don't just fall out of your head as you add new ones**. Lots of people know how to walk and swim, and somehow they use the right skill depending upon conditions - you don't see people swimming down the road or walking across the pool. There are a lot of skills to cycling: climbing, flat speed, sprinting, cornering, bike handling... Is there a good reason not to have all of them?

Let's go back that common line "I just ride for fun" for a second. Is hill climbing more fun for the good climber or the guy suffering up the climb? I love a good town line sprint in a group ride, but that's 'cause I know how to sprint. Is it more fun to be relaxed while riding next to someone, knowing that contact with another rider is something you've done countless times before, or do you like to worry about crashing?

** I wanted to see if learning other skills would cause me to unlearn something, so I took a week and learned how to play a dozen instruments. You certainly can replace one motor skill set with another (that's how you learn to not fall over when using clipless pedals), but the transition from one to the other can teach you new things about both.

[dnc]

When I start teaching pedal stroke I explain the use of two muscle groups - glutes and quads. Glutes extend from the hip and push down, quads extend from the knee and push forward over the top. Learning how to use those two muscle groups effectively makes you much better than most.


Do you mean you don't use the quads when applying downstroke force to the pedal.

[MattTuck]

Do you mean you don't use the quads when applying downstroke force to the pedal.

The quads extends the leg at the knee. If you think of your pelvis as being stationary, and your foot being moveable, you could imagine that as your leg extends your foot will move further away from the pelvis. Since your foot is in a shoe and connected to the pedal, it is in a sort of 'track', and as your leg extends, your foot will be pushed along that track, and thus go down. But, the actual force being exerted will be most effective before the 3 o'clock position.

After that, you're relying more on the track of the pedal to convert a force that is more forward/backward into vertical. One of the results of overly quad heavy pedaling is that you can introduce more forward/backward forces to the pelvis as it tries to resist/stabilize the movements as the pedal pushes back against the foot.

Ed can probably explain it better than that.