I've been seeing a lot of steel and Ti love here lately. Is there a shift going on?

[RFC]

I've done carbon, but all of my present bikes are Ti and steel.

[Tickdoc]

Yes.

[bikinchris]

Carbon makes a great bike.....for a few years. If you want to stop trading bikes ever year or two, then you look toward something more...steel like. Ti works to.

Maybe these posters are just becoming more mature?

[ultraman6970]

For a few years? some here have one of the old treks and giants still working perfectly. For example, a c40 and c50 are now around 10 + y/o so pretty much is super proven that carbon last a very long time, all depends of how you take care of the frame too.

A racer can destroy any frame in any material in less than a year, I knew a few that did that... but with other riders bikes can last a very very very long time and they are for sale pretty much because they got bored of them or got something else that rides better.

Have to put my old steel back together, dont like the paint job tho :/

[dgauthier]

I respectfully disagree with the term "lately"...

[Dead Man]

This board has always had a slant toward metal, bro. Its why we dig it.

[dave thompson]

I think it's a lot harder to build a carbon bike that will have the qualities that will imbue it with whatever it is that will satisfy a cyclist regardless of its age, a classic if you will. I can think of only two; Look 585 and Time VXR. IMO both those bikes have what a good steel bike has, staying power in the eyes of cyclists. Very few carbon bikes exhibit that quality. Custom carbon builders notwithstanding, Crumpton, Argonaut, Land Shark to name a few, production carbon bikes are viewed almost as throwaways.

[Satellite]

For a few years? some here have one of the old treks and giants still working perfectly. For example, a c40 and c50 are now around 10 + y/o so pretty much is super proven that carbon last a very long time, all depends of how you take care of the frame too.:/


LOL, yep I was thinking the opposite. Having always rode steel or Ti I have finally bought a C50. Iam currently having it restored I only rode it about 10 miles before stripping it down and sending it off. Should be back this week. Looking forward to seeing what all the hype is about!

I also got carbon wheels, two firsts.

[cadence90]

I think it's a lot harder to build a carbon bike that will have the qualities that will imbue it with whatever it is that will satisfy a cyclist regardless of its age, a classic if you will. I can think of only two; Look 585 and Time VXR. IMO both those bikes have what a good steel bike has, staying power in the eyes of cyclists. Very few carbon bikes exhibit that quality. Custom carbon builders notwithstanding, Crumpton, Argonaut, Land Shark to name a few, production carbon bikes are viewed almost as throwaways.
What, Colnago C-40 / C-50 don't?
Or you just prefer France to Italy? :p

LOL, yep I was thinking the opposite. Having always rode steel or Ti I have finally bought a C50. Iam currently having it restored I only rode it about 10 miles before stripping it down and sending it off. Should be back this week. Looking forward to seeing what all the hype is about!

I also got carbon wheels, two firsts.
And carbon bottle cages; three firsts! :)

[smontanaro]

I think some of the early carbon frames are neat (round tubes, level top tube), but I'm always skittish about what damage might be lurking in there, unseen. Steel seems to more readily wear its heart on its sleeve, so to speak.

[oldpotatoe]

I've done carbon, but all of my present bikes are Ti and steel.

Carbon, carbon, everywhere. SO, more than a few people look for something 'different'. Even some really nice aluminum. Metal is a great choice. I had carbon, sold a lot of carbon, steel, titanium frames just work so well.

[ldamelio]

Unless you're racing at a high level (ie, P/1) the small weight savings/stiffness/etc. from a high end carbon frame is meaningless in terms of performance. There's a lot to be said for the aesthetics of a well-crafted ti or steel frame. Also, generally easier to do bespoke/custom in steel or ti and working with a top builder is a great experience in one's cycling life.

Stepping back and looking at the big picture, the resurgence of metal bikes and the trend to wider tires, etc. represents a divergence of the market. As technology evolves, the best bike for professional racing is becoming increasingly different from what's best for 99% of enthusiasts (even those of us who ride very hard or race). The market is beginning to reflect this. I don't need a 700 gram semi-disposable carbon frame when I can build a 15 pound ti bike that has a sublime ride and will last me a lifetime.

[Climb01742]

I think it's like going to different bars. At some bars you'd think everyone loves beer. Other bars it'd be bourbon or cocktails.

Metal aficionados tend to belly up to our bar. Carbon fans hang at weightweenies. Kinda self selecting, yes?

[majorpat]

This joint began as the Serotta forum back before or just at the start of Ben building with carbon, so metal is in the DNA here.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk

[mcteague]

Unless you're racing at a high level (ie, P/1) the small weight savings/stiffness/etc. from a high end carbon frame is meaningless in terms of performance. There's a lot to be said for the aesthetics of a well-crafted ti or steel frame. Also, generally easier to do bespoke/custom in steel or ti and working with a top builder is a great experience in one's cycling life.

Stepping back and looking at the big picture, the resurgence of metal bikes and the trend to wider tires, etc. represents a divergence of the market. As technology evolves, the best bike for professional racing is becoming increasingly different from what's best for 99% of enthusiasts (even those of us who ride very hard or race). The market is beginning to reflect this. I don't need a 700 gram semi-disposable carbon frame when I can build a 15 pound ti bike that has a sublime ride and will last me a lifetime.

Similar situation with motorcycles. The race replica bikes have become so hard core it can be difficult to enjoy them on public roads. They need all kinds of electronic aids just to make the near 200hp manageable at all, not to mention the super committed riding position. In the last few years, the ADV and naked bike market has been growing and growing. What works for the pros does not always translate into a good choice for the enthusiast.

Tim

[pcxmbfj]

What's an "ADV" bike, motorcycle?

[christian]

Adventure bike. The motorcycle equivalent of an SUV or crossover. Eg BMW R1200GS and F800GS, Suzuki V-Strom, Yamaha Super Tenere, Moto Guzzi Stelvio.

They have upright seating, room for baggage, tires that allow you to ride on gravel roads (or pretend to).

[Schmed]

Although I'd like to have a Look 585, I find my self (as I get older), valuing the ride more than the speed. I've never raced, but do appreciate a light bike. But... all things being equal, I seem to be trending towards Ti and steel.

Ti is great - reasonable light, very nice ride, and corrosion proof. No need to worry about paint scratches. And, fits my ability. Know what I mean? I can show up for a group ride on a Ti bike with some mud crusted on the bottom bracket area and get some street cred. If I showed up on a Pinarello Dogma, I'm sure they'd point and laugh and say "yea... who are you trying to kid?" And... I'd agree with them!

This (stolen) picture makes me drool. Not so with a fancy carbon bike:

http://41.media.tumblr.com/a5267f78cff4fa5c2bea8ffde37ea5f9/tumblr_nc28uo1hrn1scap7xo1_1280.jpg

[Dead Man]

Dudes at races are always like "what the **** are you riding?" And "isnt that heavy as ****?" But when i point out the extra 1-2lbs of my Ti frame over their carbon wonder frame is nothing compared to the 5-10-15lbs of unnecesaary flesh around their mid-section, they usually STFU.

No.. Thats actually not usually how that goes... Usually dudes are just like "wow, you got style!" or "looks comfortable!"

Until my OWN 10lbs of extra flesh is dealt with, i cant even sort of worry about my extra 1-2lbs of bike weight.

[zap]

I respectfully disagree with the term "lately"...

Agreed.

After all, as posted earlier, this is the old Serotta forum.

Additionally, compared to steel and ti frame builders, not too many custom composite builders.

[FlashUNC]

There's always been a heavy metal bias around these parts.

[Formulasaab]

I would suggest that this is a two-part bias...

Bias towards metal.
Bias towards custom.

We here are on the extreme end of the bicycle geekery scale and probably all would choose to ride something handmade vs. something from a factory, given their druthers.

A custom metal frame is far less expensive than a custom carbon one. There is also a far greater choice in builders in metal.

A quick guess at common price ranges (feel free to disagree/throw out examples of outliers):
Custom steel: $1500-$3000
Custom titanium: $3000-$5000
Custom carbon: $6000-$9000

[Elefantino]

Very few carbon bikes have (a) soul. The aforementioned 585, VXR, C40/50 and maybe the DeRosa King are the exceptions.

By contrast, good steel or ti most definitely does.

[adrien]

Very few carbon bikes have (a) soul. The aforementioned 585, VXR, C40/50 and maybe the DeRosa King are the exceptions.

By contrast, good steel or ti most definitely does.

This.

I've ridden lots of high-end carbon. I like to rent it when out of town to understand what everyone's on about. Once I get past the aesthetic (which is very often not to my taste, though some are great) I then think more about the bike's, um, personality.

I rode most recently a 2015 Madone. Great, stiff, fast, and utterly uninteresting.

I've ridden the high-end Spesh bikes, too, including Venge, Tarmac and Roubaix. The latter in particular strikes me as a bike with an awful lot of trickery making it ride almost as nicely as a steel bike.

Exactly two have left me feeling like I get it. A Pino Dogma (that thing was whippet-fast, skittish under 10mph and kind of mean. Fantastic ride, and every square mm of it was branded, which cracked me up...here's the branding so you'll know what the bike is if it happens to run you over!) and an Eddy Merckx (which, according to reviewers, is suited to big boys like me who like to hammer). Of those, one was very dear indeed (the Pino) and one was actually 1.5 pounds heavier than my Firefly.

Now, custom carbon? I like that idea a lot, and have a thing for Argos. Maybe one day.

[eddief]

so I know which of my 3 steel, 1 carbon, 1 titanium bikes I should unload.

Roubaix = no sole, just go.

[zap]

I must add, I don't ride ti or steel (singles). :banana:

Nor do I ride bicycles with straight seatposts or stems that are too short :D

[Climb01742]

Very few carbon bikes have (a) soul. The aforementioned 585, VXR, C40/50 and maybe the DeRosa King are the exceptions.

I'd add Crumpton to that list.

[Dead Man]

Nor do I ride bicycles with straight seatposts or stems that are too short :D

explain

[Dead Man]

I'd add Crumpton to that list.

I bet Nick would too

[velomonkey]

For me at least I wanted some custom metal bike - I could justify ti because it was going to be more bike for a long, long time and I could make it unique to me. I could also ride the crap out of it and ride it in rain, salty roads, whatever - and the thing would keep going and going.

Throw a bucket of warm soapy water of it - wipe it down with a wet wipe and in less than 5 minutes the thing looks brand new.

Love me some ti.

[Elefantino]

For me at least I wanted some custom metal bike - I could justify ti because it was going to be more bike for a long, long time and I could make it unique to me. I could also ride the crap out of it and ride it in rain, salty roads, whatever - and the thing would keep going and going.

Throw a bucket of warm soapy water of it - wipe it down with a wet wipe and in less than 5 minutes the thing looks brand new.

Love me some ti.
Lemon Pledge®. Don't forget the Lemon Pledge®.

[Waldo]

I don't think it's a shift, not here anyway. This place has always given lots and lots of love to Ti and Fe.

[Big Dan]

I love steel, but that crap about bikes having "soul" is a joke.

[benb]

Yep.. no bike has a soul until you do something meaningful while riding it.

My steel bike has soul, my Carbon bike does not. But I'm planning on doing the longest & hilliest ride I've ever done in June on the Carbon bike. Unless it explodes into a million pieces while I'm JRA like the steel is real crowd might predict that bike will have soul as far as I'm concerned once I get to the end of the ride.

If anything the carbon bikes might seem soul-less because they're too darn good.. they have no defining character because they do everything well.

[bikingshearer]

No shift on my part; I've always been a steel guy. I my case, it is pretty much about the nostalgia. My small stable (at least by the standards of some of you - my wife thinks it's a pretty big stable) is made up mostly of frames I lusted after when I was a teen and could not afford them.

And while I enjoyed the heck out of Eroica and love ogling Campy NR decked out bikes, I ride on indexed 9- or 10-speed shifting and SPDs. But it's indexed 9- or 10-speed and SPDs hanging on 30 to 50 year old lugged steel. I don't know if lugged steel has soul, but it certainly speaks to me.

Of course, I am waaaaay down at the low end of the "speed" and "cool" charts, so you probably do not want to use me as a role model.

[zap]

explain

Do I really............:D

Lot's of history (and posts) here before the split.

[MsRN]

Carbon bikes can be stellar; I bought a Giant Cadex 980C back in college, and rode the heck out of it. It was just solid.

That being said, these days I prefer steel or titanium. When I took my '99 Ritchey Road Logic out for a test, it just begged me to ride it hard; that bike speaks to me in ways that OCLV and Lemond and GT Ti frames never did. My Serotta MAX853 too rode sublimely (shame it was too big for me). And my '84 Trek 720 rides like a dream as well.

None of these bikes are super-high-end, or the lightest things out there. Nonetheless, they're imbued with personality and a certain ineffable quality that I credit to the gifted craftsmen who created them. Perhaps it's nostalgia for my old, Simplex Super-LJ-clad Gitane TdF, but well-built steel just screams 'classic bike' to me.

[Elefantino]

I love steel, but that crap about bikes having "soul" is a joke.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/slant/articles/cb0a6fb0-2fd0-11e5-b236-2916713ca3fb/cb0a6fb1-2fd0-11e5-b236-2916713ca3fb/media_5a2d83e0-2fd5-11e5-b236-2916713ca3fb.gif

[benb]

No shift on my part; I've always been a steel guy. I my case, it is pretty much about the nostalgia. My small stable (at least by the standards of some of you - my wife thinks it's a pretty big stable) is made up mostly of frames I lusted after when I was a teen and could not afford them.


Yep.. and here's the thing. I'll be 39 this year. The bike my friends and I lusted after in high school was the Trek OCLV.. it was kind of unique then when most of the teams were riding Steel and transitioning to aluminum.

I've rode more aluminum than anything else. Steel was just about gone in the mainstream by the time I got out of college and had money for nice bikes. Steel lust is age specific I think although I totally totally get it for anything but pure race bikes.

[Waldo]

No bike has soul unless James Brown is riding it.

Snip: Yep.. no bike has a soul until you do something meaningful while riding it.

[mhespenheide]

I don't know about "soul", but I feel like my Cervelo R3 (2011, xxl) has a personality. It's halfway between an adolescent dog: "let's play! let's play more!" and your friendly high school or college rival: "is that all you got"?

A disclaimer: it's the first high-quality relatively-modern carbon bike I've ever owned. I only wish it fit bigger tires for the crappy pavement around here.

Because of those crappy roads, I usually ride my Ti Lemond instead. Wider tires fit, and the Ti has a little extra give to it.


I think that one of the advantages of Ti and steel is that you don't have the costs of molds if you want to change something. So as we're interested in minute, final 2% details, it's easier to make those changes in metal. (Or a handful of custom carbon builders like Crumpton and Argonaut, but those guys are out of my price range.)

[choke]

They make bikes out of something other than steel? :confused:

[Wakatel_Luum]

I don't know why but there is a type of soul or nostalgia that goes with steel bikes, I have three Merlin Ti frames but love riding my old scratched up steel Olmo Superlight more at the moment, takes me back to being a teenager and just loved riding...

[MsRN]

They make bikes out of something other than steel? :confused:



No, they don't; you were just having a bad dream. Go back to sleep, dear.

[choke]

No, they don't; you were just having a bad dream. Go back to sleep, dear.

Whew! Thanks, I was concerned for a moment.

[Pastashop]

People have made bikes with steel the longest and figured out how to get a good ride out of it. Plus it's a natural material for springs and bridges and all sorts of things that take cyclic (!) loads, with a yield strength that's well defined and doesn't fatigue, and a typically non-catastrophic failure mode. Plus the material is relatively cheap. Plus highly repairable. So you can put yer money toward a reputable frame builder, a couple sets of hand built (and easily repairable) wheels, a few spare identical rims, excellent tires, high quality shorts, and an occasional trip to a nice cycling destination. Combine, shake, and enjoy!

[JamesEsq]

Seems like the wonder-carbon is the hot chick you want for the fling, but steel/Ti is the one you bring home to mom.

[Black Dog]

Seems like the wonder-carbon is the hot chick you want for the fling, but steel/Ti is the one you bring home to mom.

Steel is the one you want to grow old with.

[PaMtbRider]

To get the most out of a steel bike's ride quality, it needs a matching steel fork.

[Germany_chris]

As most have said this isn't a recent phenomenon.

[SpeedyChix]

Short take is that many who got into cycling in past decade during carbon as wonder bike era are now moving on. Looking at other options, customs, etc. and have "discovered" ti or steel. Others making a return to the longevity of steel and ti.

[I Want Sachs?]

To get the most out of a steel bike's ride quality, it needs a matching steel fork.

Unless the steel bike is Pegoretti, in which case, he designed a carbon fork to match. :)

[fuzzalow]

Very few carbon bikes have (a) soul. The aforementioned 585, VXR, C40/50 and maybe the DeRosa King are the exceptions.

By contrast, good steel or ti most definitely does.

Yes, I have owned the C40; C50 and the first generation DeRosa King. Superlative bikes that rode like Italian steel racebikes only not made of steel. Bikes made before the stiffness wars took hold in creating the false belief that a stiffer, less compliant bike frame was a better, faster characteristic to be desired for in a racebike.

My goodness me, the marketing guys from the big-box-bike-companies didn't write copy to educate riders, they wrote it to sell bikes popped out of a mold. Stiffness is a truly meaningless marketing attribute. But say it enough times and it becomes fact.

If there is any movement back to steel or titanium bikes, I can only hope that it comes at the expense of carbon fiber bikes and most especially if it comes from riders getting more sophisticated and leaving behind the mass market carbon big-box-bike. Consider it a right of passage to finally not fall prey to the sales pitch of this year's wonder bike until next year's newer, stiffer, faster wonder bike. Get off of that merry go round. With each year upon year improvement you'd think by now the bikes go faster all by themselves.

[Elefantino]

With each year upon year improvement you'd think by now the bikes go faster all by themselves.
Actually, if you believe infrared video, they already do. :D

[Kirk007]

...stiffer, less compliant ....




Let's face it, from middle-age tigresses stalking through Viagra commercials to the big box bike companies, stiffness is better is an endless theme in the marketing lexicon ... Stiffness is good eh, but if your ride lasts more than four hours on one of those things you may need to see a doctor immediately.

[EDS]

Yes, I have owned the C40; C50 and the first generation DeRosa King. Superlative bikes that rode like Italian steel racebikes only not made of steel. Bikes made before the stiffness wars took hold in creating the false belief that a stiffer, less compliant bike frame was a better, faster characteristic to be desired for in a racebike.

My goodness me, the marketing guys from the big-box-bike-companies didn't write copy to educate riders, they wrote it to sell bikes popped out of a mold. Stiffness is a truly meaningless marketing attribute. But say it enough times and it becomes fact.

If there is any movement back to steel or titanium bikes, I can only hope that it comes at the expense of carbon fiber bikes and most especially if it comes from riders getting more sophisticated and leaving behind the mass market carbon big-box-bike. Consider it a right of passage to finally not fall prey to the sales pitch of this year's wonder bike until next year's newer, stiffer, faster wonder bike. Get off of that merry go round. With each year upon year improvement you'd think by now the bikes go faster all by themselves.

I do not think what you wrote above is true with respect to current generation carbon bikes and the marketing associated with them. Maybe it is with respect to aero frames, but for more traditional race bikes like the Specialized Tarmac, Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi Mod, Trek Emonda, etc., the bike companies are placing considerable emphasis on compliance. This is born out in the designs of these bikes - leaner tube profiles, narrower diameter seat posts, etc. in comparison to models from a few years ago.

I still love my titanium Serotta, but I think that has more to do with the fit and geometry than material. Ditto for my carbon Argon 18.

[Tickdoc]

I hate to admit, but I can't feel much difference in stiffness or compliance between my steel, ti, al, or carbon bikes.

My aluminum bikes(2) were more harsh for sure.

My ti/carbon is plush, but not magic carpet like.

My all carbon is very very comfy and fast and light. It's just creaky and twitchy, but the ride is great. It fits me well, which is a big component of that, but it has a nice blend of stiffness and compliance.

My steel(2) are just da bomb. Silky, magic carpet like, and dead silent. They are not more comfy than my carbon, though. They feel so good I don't even care I give up 2-4 lbs of weight.

To relate it to cars, my steel bikes are like closing a Mercedes, or even old Saab door. It feels deliciously solid and well done. Ker thunk.

[zap]

edit


If there is any movement back to steel or titanium bikes, I can only hope that it comes at the expense of carbon fiber bikes and most especially if it comes from riders getting more sophisticated and leaving behind the mass market carbon big-box-bike.

What I've seen, folks sold off their custom steel and/or ti and purchased Spec or Trek or Canyon or.....These bikes (the Spec, etc) get attention and a lot of love, frames from small boutique builders are shunned, notably by influential fast cyclists.

[benb]

Short take is that many who got into cycling in past decade during carbon as wonder bike era are now moving on. Looking at other options, customs, etc. and have "discovered" ti or steel. Others making a return to the longevity of steel and ti.

Eh.. this could be clouded by the shift towards gravel & adventure riding and using bigger tires. The (generally smaller) companies making the Steel & Ti bikes were way out ahead of the curve on this, the offerings from the big bike companies (which are usually carbon) are still pretty weak.

[Zoodles]

Racing in my twenties I went through steel bikes at least once per year on the road and another one for cross. Ya they were repairable at the end of that but they were twisted, dented, and sometimes worse so the thinking was why bother. These were pinarello 's, concorde's and other good names.

20 yrs later I race a lot less frequently (and gently) on aluminum on the road and carbon for cx. Frames hold up about the same imo in terms of number of racing days.

When comparing the materials it seems we get caught up in nostalgia as much as we conflate our own riding with high level racing, at which everything is disposable.

Fwiw I also have steel bikes and have no issues racing them, I just don't think they sit above any other material.