Ventoso blasts use of road discs

[crossjunkee]

Ventoso describes the incident that happened last weekend. I agree with him, disc brakes should not be used in road racing.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/injured-ventoso-blasts-use-of-road-discs_402394

[David Kirk]

The problem is less that the bikes have disc and more with the design of the disc itself. Most are stamped or machined and this leaves the outer edge sharp. There is zero need for it to be sharp and the outer edge could be radiused and smooth. I modify my own discs this way. By doing this it makes the rotors less dangerous than the chainrings by far.

I expect this design change will happen very soon and once on company does it they will all follow.

dave

[soulspinner]

The problem is less that the bikes have disc and more with the design of the disc itself. Most are stamped or machined and this leaves the outer edge sharp. There is zero need for it to be sharp and the outer edge could be radiused and smooth. I modify my own discs this way. By doing this it makes the rotors less dangerous than the chainrings by far.

I expect this design change will happen very soon and once on company does it they will all follow.

dave

cool...:beer:

[crossjunkee]

The problem is less that the bikes have disc and more with the design of the disc itself. Most are stamped or machined and this leaves the outer edge sharp. There is zero need for it to be sharp and the outer edge could be radiused and smooth. I modify my own discs this way. By doing this it makes the rotors less dangerous than the chainrings by far.

I expect this design change will happen very soon and once on company does it they will all follow.

dave

I'm not following. I understand discs are stamped and the edges are very sharp when new. If the edges are "radiused" and smooth, it seems like they would cut just as easy. Maybe even easier.

A chainring stops spinning when the rider stops pedaling. A wheel will continue to spin in a pile up.

[MikeD]

The problem is less that the bikes have disc and more with the design of the disc itself. Most are stamped or machined and this leaves the outer edge sharp. There is zero need for it to be sharp and the outer edge could be radiused and smooth. I modify my own discs this way. By doing this it makes the rotors less dangerous than the chainrings by far.



I expect this design change will happen very soon and once on company does it they will all follow.



dave


They should have thought of and done this before. Now the UCI will probably ban disc brakes for road racing.

[false_Aest]

They should have thought of and done this before. Now the UCI will probably ban disc brakes for road racing.


It will only be banned if it exceeds the 3:1 ratio on an axis that extends beyond 321mm from the centerline drawn between the midpoint of a saddle (not to exceed a length of 276mm) to the point of KOPS when the rider has hands placed in the drops with no more than 40mm and no less than 5mm of spacers on bicycle utilizing integrated headset technology.

[christian]

I'm not following. I understand discs are stamped and the edges are very sharp when new. If the edges are "radiused" and smooth, it seems like they would cut just as easy. Maybe even easier.No, sharp edges cut and a stock rotor has two sharp 90d corners on the outer rim. A radiused rotor edge (shaped like a U) will not cut someone.

A chainring stops spinning when the rider stops pedaling. A wheel will continue to spin in a pile up.The momentum of a wheel is pretty negligible. I'm still way more afraid of cranks than I am of discs.

[rain dogs]

I understand when asking about disc safety the tendency is to bring up chainrings... but this a red herring, no?

Are chainrings dangerous?, AND discs don't reduce or change whatever danger exists with chainrings. Who knows why there aren't more chainring accidents, maybe because they are located at the center of the bike vs the wheels... the "ends"?

Again, Discs appear to have a realistic "danger" to them (two cut in Paris-Roubaix) and if safety is a concern, they need to be compared to standard side-pull brakes (or similar) not chainrings, because that's the question.

Do standard side-pull brakes provide adequate braking performance for professionals? Yes or no?... it appears yes. Then, do those brakes provide increased safety over discs? Who knows? But it appears so because no one seems to get cut open by side pulls.

Not a disc-lover or hater btw. Got a cross bike with discs and road without. The question is are they needed in the Peloton?

[93legendti]

I'm not following. I understand discs are stamped and the edges are very sharp when new. If the edges are "radiused" and smooth, it seems like they would cut just as easy. Maybe even easier.

A chainring stops spinning when the rider stops pedaling. A wheel will continue to spin in a pile up.

Sea glass vs fresh broken glass. Scrape both across your skin and see what happens...


You couldn't pay me to scrape the fresh broken glass against my skin.

[Mark McM]

The momentum of a wheel is pretty negligible. I'm still way more afraid of cranks than I am of discs.

According to the article in Velonews, Ventoso's injury didn't happen in a crash, it happened in a bunching up, when his leg contacted the rotor on the wheel of a rider just in front and to the side of him. A wheel rolling on the ground can generate a lot of torque, and it probably didn't even slow the wheel down as it cut his leg.

In other words, it was kind of like ridding up on the Wacky Races Buzz Wagon:

http://pre14.deviantart.net/1858/th/pre/i/2012/356/3/9/wacky_race_by_lukkas1759-d5osciq.jpg

[crossjunkee]

Sea glass vs fresh broken glass. Scrape both across your skin and see what happens...


You couldn't pay me to scrape the fresh broken glass against my skin.


Ahhh, yes, makes perfect sense now!

[Stephen2014]

Apart from the obvious and using drum brakes, it's pathetic that in the 21st century manufacturers haven't sorted the dangers of discs out.

[chiasticon]

Again, Discs appear to have a realistic "danger" to them (two cut in Paris-Roubaix) and if safety is a concern, they need to be compared to standard side-pull brakes (or similar) not chainrings, because that's the question.exactly. we obviously can't get rid of the chainring. maybe someone wants to lobby for covering it with a plastic guard; good luck with that ("it's more aero!"). or using belt drives or something. anyway, point is, are they more dangerous than rim brakes? rim brakes have no sharp surfaces so you'll never cut yourself on them. the only question then is: will they cause less crashes? this is up for debate, but I think it'd be a hard thing to prove one way or the other until we spend a couple years with the whole peloton using them and change no other outside factors (yeah, right) and analyse the results. so then, are the potentially fewer number of crashes worth it when we end up with guys having severe injuries like this? again, up for debate... but in the article he does make an excellent point: 16 bikes with discs and two riders with disc lacerations, one quite severe. that's not a reassuring number.

[ultraman6970]

IN mtb you have no pile ups and CX pretty much the guys are going alone too, but in the road is totally different, even if you put a cover over them, the bike will look like using a dork wheel, the plastic cover can crack in an accident and it can injure somebody aswell.

If more of this cuts happens in the future disc brakes will be a thing of the past quite quick.

[unterhausen]

mountain discs are shielded much more effectively by the tires. Pileups might be more rare, but they do happen in mtb

[ultraman6970]

IMHO, disc with hydraulic systems are like the clear upgrade but never been a good idea from the practical point of view. Bicycles were getting really bored and market needed to go somewhere, bu the only way to sell the thing is to force teams to use them so the "I gotta have that the pros have" guy buys them.

I'm more exited by wireless and Hydraulic drivetrains than for the those discs.

[zap]

Are chainrings dangerous?, AND discs don't reduce or change whatever danger exists with chainrings. Who knows why there aren't more chainring accidents, maybe because they are located at the center of the bike vs the wheels... the "ends"?


I was caught up in a crash during a crit and a chainring cut into my calf. With disc brakes there are now 2 more bits that can cut and as you pointed out, at either end of a bike. Would Dave's solution make a difference when a disc is spinning. I don't know?

[David Kirk]

I think one of the issues is that discs are new and every incident is pulled out and flown high as an example that the sky is falling. I raced for a few decades and saw chainrings cut people on BMX, mountain and road bikes. It's pretty common. So common that it's not newsworthy. Chainrings are of course covered with sharp teeth and I have scars on my leg where one can pretty much make out the shape of the teeth even 30 years later.

If the outer edge of the rotor is kept round (many try to instill some fashion with wavy edges or even silly sawtooth patterns) and that edge is radiused they will present far less danger of cutting than a chainring.

I don't know if discs are the best idea for road racing or not but if they aren't it won't be because they present a clear and present danger to riders. If folks want to hate them because they make the bikes look different that's cool.......it's just does everyone a disservice when the reason for the hate is trumped up safety issues.

dave

[oldpotatoe]

I think one of the issues is that discs are new and every incident is pulled out and flown high as an example that the sky is falling. I raced for a few decades and saw chainrings cut people on BMX, mountain and road bikes. It's pretty common. So common that it's not newsworthy. Chainrings are of course covered with sharp teeth and I have scars on my leg where one can pretty much make out the shape of the teeth even 30 years later.

If the outer edge of the rotor is kept round (many try to instill some fashion with wavy edges or even silly sawtooth patterns) and that edge is radiused they will present far less danger of cutting than a chainring.

I don't know if discs are the best idea for road racing or not but if they aren't it won't be because they present a clear and present danger to riders. If folks want to hate them because they make the bikes look different that's cool.......it's just does everyone a disservice when the reason for the hate is trumped up safety issues.

dave

I don't think Ventoso would agree it's a 'trumped up safety issue'...

[David Kirk]

I don't think Ventoso would agree it's a 'trumped up safety issue'...

I'm sure you are right. Nor do all those that have chainring scars. My point isn't that they don't present any danger but instead that they wouldn't present any additional danger if they radiused the edge.

Cycling is inherently dangerous. Chainrings cut, pedals dig into shins, bars break throwing the rider to the floor, skewers are improperly tightened and the wheels fall out, flat tires cause crashes, fingers go into spinning spokes and break fingers........etc. Anyone who has been around racing for a period of time has seen all this stuff and more.

Ventoso got hurt and that sucks any way you cut it.......it sucks equally that others slide off the side of a wet road when descending in the rain and get hurt because their rim brake did nothing in the cold rain.

It's all a compromise and one needs to be realistic as to the real dangers.......and to recognize that the sky isn't falling.

dave

[onsight512]

It will only be banned if it exceeds the 3:1 ratio on an axis that extends beyond 321mm from the centerline drawn between the midpoint of a saddle (not to exceed a length of 276mm) to the point of KOPS when the rider has hands placed in the drops with no more than 40mm and no less than 5mm of spacers on bicycle utilizing integrated headset technology.

ha. very good.:hello:

[bobswire]

Corporate will be freaking (:crap:) trying to figure a way to squash this before it becomes viral. I mean what are they going to do with all those frames they've built and the ones on-line to be built. Who in their right is going to buy a bike that the pros won't ride because they are too dangerous. People who buy these kind of bikes want to mimic the pros.

[benb]

Heh.. I totally forgot I have a chainring scar too. Didn't even happen racing, it happened when I was 12 when I got my first 10-speed... you can cut yourself with your OWN chainring in a crash.

I think mandating the circular rotors with a radiused edge would be a good compromise.

That said the rotors on my MTB aren't exactly sharp either and they're wavy. It's not like stuff has to be sharp.. I got gashed up from a Look/Shimano SPD-SL style pedal in a big crit pileup.. it doesn't take much if you hit stuff hard enough.

[JStonebarger]

UCI to suspend the use of disc brakes in professional racing
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931#GpflCyFouXR3WBb7.99

[bobswire]

UCI to suspend the use of disc brakes in professional racing
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931#GpflCyFouXR3WBb7.99

I just read that too,maybe you should start an update thread.

Ventoso's teammate Rory Sutherland responded to the news of the suspension of disc brake use by asking, "because we really needed an accident to decide this was a bad idea? How many riders wanted discs? Nearly none!"

[pavel]

It will only be banned if it exceeds the 3:1


I know you're joking but this is actually a good point. Doesnt a disc count as a component? and it certainly violates 3:1.

[pavel]

I just read that too,maybe you should start an update thread.

Ventoso's teammate Rory Sutherland responded to the news of the suspension of disc brake use by asking, "because we really needed an accident to decide this was a bad idea? How many riders wanted discs? Nearly none!"

L. O. L. Cant wait for all the publications to start going back on the last 3 years of their own marketing hype garbage and saying how rim brakes are actually more than enough.

[ceolwulf]

UCI to suspend the use of disc brakes in professional racing
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931#GpflCyFouXR3WBb7.99

So a guy gets cut up by a disc, insta-ban for discs.

A guy gets literally killed stone dead by a moto, and not only is absolutely nothing done, the very next major race another guy gets run over by a moto.

:confused:

[Cicli]

My bike is cool again.

In a few more years my 501's will be in style again too. :beer:

[thwart]

Ya have to kind of hate it when someone predicts a minor calamity because of a technology 'advance' and it happens exactly as predicted.

Not knowing much about discs, it amazes me that the radiusing that Dave Kirk describes above isn't already being done.

[bobswire]

Ya have to kind of hate it when someone predicts a minor calamity because of a technology 'advance' and it happens exactly as predicted.

Not knowing much about discs, it amazes me that the radiusing that Dave Kirk describes above isn't already being done.

Duh! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That's what it is all about.

[David Kirk]

With all due respect and then some I'm having trouble understanding the incident that caused the cut. It seemed pretty straight forward until I read more online and saw a photo of the cut.

If I understand it properly (and I might not and hope to have it straightened out if need be) he was riding along next to a rider with disc brakes and was bumped into him. The report I saw said they bumped but stayed upright. The rider kept going and shortly later noticed a lot of blood so pulled over and stopped. The photo makes it look like the cut is just below the knee cap.

What I don't get is how this area just below the knee could come in contact with the rotor. If they both fell, or the rider fell onto the other moving bike (which stayed upright) then i could see it. But there is no way I can figure that a knee could ever get way down to where the rotor is if the rider doesn't fall.

Does anyone know what the deal is?

dave

[oldpotatoe]

UCI to suspend the use of disc brakes in professional racing
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931#GpflCyFouXR3WBb7.99

That's that. Bet Campag isn't upset. Bet sram is.

[Premton]

The problem is less that the bikes have disc and more with the design of the disc itself. Most are stamped or machined and this leaves the outer edge sharp. There is zero need for it to be sharp and the outer edge could be radiused and smooth. I modify my own discs this way. By doing this it makes the rotors less dangerous than the chainrings by far.

I expect this design change will happen very soon and once on company does it they will all follow.

dave

The discs are more exposed than the chainrings.

[David Kirk]

The discs are more exposed than the chainrings.


I agree - all the more reason to make the outer edge rounded.

dave

[MikeD]

I agree - all the more reason to make the outer edge rounded.



dave


All edges should be rounded, including the arms and holes, else the rotor acts like a cheese grater. I'd like to see all bicycle rotors like this too - why limit this only to pro bikes?

[Premton]

2 disc brake injuries

CT Ventoso: 15km after my incident, Nikolas Maes, a rider from Etixx-Quick Step, comes into the very same ambulance I’m sitting in. There’s a deep wound in his knee, produced by another disc, one of those 32. One question comes inevitably and immediately to one’s mind: what will happen when 396 discs get into a race where 198 riders ferociously battle for position?

[David Kirk]

All edges should be rounded, including the arms and holes, else the rotor acts like a cheese grater. I'd like to see all bicycle rotors like this too - why limit this only to pro bikes?

I agree - the rotors on my MTB are rounded. One less thing to worry about.

dave

[AllanVarcoe]

We'll need these for chainrings and discs!

https://www.depop.com/en-us/kaeptnbuzz/chain-guard-kettenschutz-for-3

[Cicli]

We'll need these for chainrings and discs!

https://www.depop.com/en-us/kaeptnbuzz/chain-guard-kettenschutz-for-3

Thats like the chainring equivalant of cards in spokes.

[ispy]

Even the fancy sports cars "protect" their brake rotors behind fancy peek-a-boo alloy wheels.

But since that won't work on bike wheels... Couldn't the rotors be made with a flanged edge, like a frisbee? The brake calipers would have to be redesigned so they can grab around a curved profile rather than a straight profile. But that just means more new stuff to sell/buy :D Plus the mfg's can make up new exciting marketing acronyms about how they've shaped the frisbee edge to better "cut" through the wind, without cutting through legs of course.

[parris]

It'll be interesting to see how things eventually shake out. It almost seems that a group of naysayers to disk bikes got outvoted and are now pointing to this saying "see we told you so"...

[Neil]

I don't think that this really matters. Each new bike I make or buy does have/will have discs- they are superior to calipers, for my use case.

Yes it sucks to be Ventoso, although his description of what happened is hard to reconcile with the injury as has been pointed out.

That said Dave Kirks radius idea resolves the issue, so the hysteria is hard to countenance.

Luddites will seize upon this to say I told you so, but that's been the case with every technological advance ever made.

[bcroslin]

http://www.sharperamerica.com/images/delislicerrepair_4.jpg

[Elefantino]

Even rounded-edge discs can cause injury, particularly when they're red-hot from braking. So you eliminate cuts but burns are still possible. I see this as a possible next argument from the CPA, which doesn't want discs, period.

[MikeD]

A bash guard works to protect against chainring teeth, if one is concerned.

[wallymann]

In a few more years my 501's will be in style again too. :beer:

501s are fad-proof and will *always* be in style.

What I don't get is how this area just below the knee could come in contact with the rotor. If they both fell, or the rider fell onto the other moving bike (which stayed upright) then i could see it. But there is no way I can figure that a knee could ever get way down to where the rotor is if the rider doesn't fall.

riders avoiding a pileup often unclip 1 foot and "tripod" while braking manically to stay upright. that loose leg will stab out wherever needed, and when the rider is off the saddle the leg can get pretty far forward and low.

[p nut]

Compromise?

http://fcdn.roadbikereview.com/attachments/general-cycling-discussion/311485d1451880017-disc-front-brake-rim-caliper-rear-brake-experiment-frankendale.jpg

[Red Tornado]

Def sucks that a rider got hurt, but there is assumed risk in this and any other sport. Many things on a bike can hurt you in the right place & right time.
With that said, for me aside from prolinged descents and wet weather riding, my calipers provide more than enough stopping power. In fact, I can lock up my rear wheel easily with calipers. For me modulation is key, and I can mod my road calipers just fine. For CX & dirt, discs are wonderful. So aside from descending & riding in rain, discs seem to be an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. Carbon brake tracks aside, most calipers function reasonably well in wet.
Regarding sharp vs. radiused rotors, def put a raduis on. I work in manufacfuring around machinery & tooling all day and everything that can have sharp edges broken is a huge benefit.

[thirdgenbird]

501s are fad-proof and will *always* be in style.

While I agree, I'm sticking to 527s.

Compromise?

You disgust me.

[David Kirk]

Even rounded-edge discs can cause injury, particularly when they're red-hot from braking. So you eliminate cuts but burns are still possible. I see this as a possible next argument from the CPA, which doesn't want discs, period.

This is often sited but isn't really a practical concern. The reason is that the brakes only get hot after prolonged use on a real descent. A brush of the brakes to scrub off speed or a single hard stop will not make them hot enough to be dangerous......and since the majority of pile up crashes (the kind that would cause one rider to fall onto another rider's bike) happen in sprints and around flat corners the brakes will not be hot.

Big mountain descent mass-crashes (where the rotor might be hot) are almost non-existant while single crashes where the rider runs out of wet rim brakes are fairly common.

It's popular to think that riders are riding along at 25 mph on the flat with red hot rotors just waiting to burn someone but the rotors are stone cold except after prolonged braking.

Round the edges of the rotor and balance the risk......more risk of falling on a spinning, but dull rotor, and less risk of falls due to not being able to stop in time for a pile up........particularly in the wet.

I talk about discs a good bit and find myself defending them just on principle. I sell very few bikes with discs and talk more folks out of them than I ever do into them. I have no axe to grind. I find I only care because the arguments made against them are so often not based on facts or experience but rather on emotion or fear of the unknown.

The market place will have it's say. Buy what you like and enjoy what you've got. Life's too short to do anything else.

dave

[makoti]

I sell very few bikes with discs and talk more folks out of them than I ever do into them.

dave

Well, now I curious. Why? What's your argument against?

[DRZRM]

I asked in the other thread, but discs are on the left side of the bike right? If he didn't go down, how on earth could he have cut his left leg one the left side of another rider's bike who also didn't go down? Were bikes in the air? Is there video of the crash? I can't figure out how it could have happened.

[54ny77]

can you imagine trying to ride while a bone-deep gash is healing in your leg?

yowza. that hurts thinking about it.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm building a bike up for the first time with discs. The edges of my TRP rotors are not sharp and have some sort of black coating on them. I would much rather have Odd Job throw my rotors at me than my chain rings.

[Elefantino]

I would much rather have Odd Job throw my rotors at me than my chain rings.
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-19-2014/oIPBsY.gif (http://makeagif.com/oIPBsY)

[Elefantino]

This is often sited but isn't really a practical concern. The reason is that the brakes only get hot after prolonged use on a real descent. A brush of the brakes to scrub off speed or a single hard stop will not make them hot enough to be dangerous......and since the majority of pile up crashes (the kind that would cause one rider to fall onto another rider's bike) happen in sprints and around flat corners the brakes will not be hot.

Big mountain descent mass-crashes (where the rotor might be hot) are almost non-existant while single crashes where the rider runs out of wet rim brakes are fairly common.

It's popular to think that riders are riding along at 25 mph on the flat with red hot rotors just waiting to burn someone but the rotors are stone cold except after prolonged braking.

Round the edges of the rotor and balance the risk......more risk of falling on a spinning, but dull rotor, and less risk of falls due to not being able to stop in time for a pile up........particularly in the wet.

I talk about discs a good bit and find myself defending them just on principle. I sell very few bikes with discs and talk more folks out of them than I ever do into them. I have no axe to grind. I find I only care because the arguments made against them are so often not based on facts or experience but rather on emotion or fear of the unknown.

The market place will have it's say. Buy what you like and enjoy what you've got. Life's too short to do anything else.

dave
See, this is why it's great to have people like DK on this board. They know their stuff. The rest of us are just lunkheads. ;)

[rain dogs]

[snip] I find I only care because the arguments made against them are so often not based on facts or experience but rather on emotion or fear of the unknown. [snip]


dave

Dave, with all due respect, in regards to the pro racing peloton can't we re-write that as:

the arguments made for them are so often not based on facts or experience but rather on marketing and the desire for new revenue streams.

Ventoso wrote. “I haven’t met any rider who has run out of braking power with traditional brakes; I haven’t known anyone who didn’t see his wheels skidding when you brake with all power you’ve got, no matter traditional or disc brakes. Then: why using them?”

Not everything that makes it to the peloton endures:
Front suspension in roubaix
650b wheels
those handlebars
etc. etc.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/TFq1F.jpg

For the general pathlete I agree... disc it up, but pros know how to brake. Before the debate "are they safe?" needs to come "are they necessary?"

[oldpotatoe]

I'm sure you are right. Nor do all those that have chainring scars. My point isn't that they don't present any danger but instead that they wouldn't present any additional danger if they radiused the edge.

Cycling is inherently dangerous. Chainrings cut, pedals dig into shins, bars break throwing the rider to the floor, skewers are improperly tightened and the wheels fall out, flat tires cause crashes, fingers go into spinning spokes and break fingers........etc. Anyone who has been around racing for a period of time has seen all this stuff and more.

Ventoso got hurt and that sucks any way you cut it.......it sucks equally that others slide off the side of a wet road when descending in the rain and get hurt because their rim brake did nothing in the cold rain.

It's all a compromise and one needs to be realistic as to the real dangers.......and to recognize that the sky isn't falling.

dave

OK, I'll bite..you mean carbon rims, I assume. Lets see, carbon rims..change the brakes? Why not make carbon rims go away? What would that REALLY mean anything, other than put the hurts on carbon rim and wheel makers? Would it really have a big effect on racing? It would make riding in the rain safer.

[Black Dog]

OK, I'll bite..you mean carbon rims, I assume. Lets see, carbon rims..change the brakes? Why not make carbon rims go away? What would that REALLY mean anything, other than put the hurts on carbon rim and wheel makers? Would it really have a big effect on racing? It would make riding in the rain safer.

Keep the carbon rims. Mandate an Al braking track or a braking surface that can match or surpass Al under wet conditions. If the UCI is testing frames and wheels why not do this? Tongue, sort of, in cheek, sort of. :p

[fignon's barber]

Ventoso's open letter was very well balanced and logical. I fully agree with him, where previously I was indifferent. He basically says they are fine for cross or other non-pack events.
The comparison between chainrings and discs isn't well thought out. The chain rings are tucked away by the rider's foot,crank arm,chain, and the flaired angle of the chain stay (from the rear). The discs, on the other hand, are more exposed and next to the tire, would be the first object to contact the other rider as he bumps into the disc user.
In fact, think about one of the most common crashes: overlap of the front wheel. Quite possible for the rider who's front wheel is overlapped to go down and have his face near the rotor if on the right side.

[velomonkey]

All I got to say is damn glad I never gave disc brakes for my road bike(s) a remote thought.

Sometimes it's good to let your sense of vanity triumph.

[palincss]

Not everything that makes it to the peloton endures:
Front suspension in roubaix
650b wheels
those handlebars
etc. etc.


When were 650B wheels ever in the peloton?

[rain dogs]

B..C... youknowwhattimean :banana:

[enr1co]

When were 650B wheels ever in the peloton?

I recall some were using them on TT bikes- at least front wheel, e.g. Lemond's 89' tt bike. Jalabert was using them for climbing stages amongst other things ;)

[Fatty]

More fuel.

Lampre-Merida manager chimes in.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/lampre-not-convinced-ventoso-injury-caused-by-disc-brake-220827

[chiasticon]

What I don't get is how this area just below the knee could come in contact with the rotor. If they both fell, or the rider fell onto the other moving bike (which stayed upright) then i could see it. But there is no way I can figure that a knee could ever get way down to where the rotor is if the rider doesn't fall.

Does anyone know what the deal is?are you sure you saw the photo of Ventoso? I'm not searching for photos because I don't want to see. he said it was to the muscle of his calf, from my understanding. but he did say that the EQS rider's injury was in the knee area. maybe that's what you saw? that one is being debated as to whether disc or not, by both rider and team DS, because he said he simply didn't see what did it and it's not clear from the wound.

[velomonkey]

Lampre-Merida manager chimes in.



Snarf . . .from the article “I see discs as the way forward, the breaking is phenomenal"


Ahhhh, that is too funny.

[chiasticon]

Keep the carbon rims. Mandate an Al braking track or a braking surface that can match or surpass Al under wet conditions. If the UCI is testing frames and wheels why not do this? Tongue, sort of, in cheek, sort of. :pseems Merckx agrees with you.

“I rode a bike today with disc brakes,” he said. “Yeah, they work. But for me, the best is carbon wheels with aluminum rims and rim brakes. OK, a disc is better in the rain. But if the UCI rules said ‘carbon wheels with aluminum rims,’ it would solve everything.”

source: http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/eddy-merckx-disc-brakes-dangerous-racing_402468

[ultraman6970]

Who knows how much money is at stake here. Sponsors paying or the team dont want to see themselves stuck with equipment they cant use and that is already paid for?? Budget??



More fuel.

Lampre-Merida manager chimes in.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/lampre-not-convinced-ventoso-injury-caused-by-disc-brake-220827

[Plum Hill]

More fuel.

Lampre-Merida manager chimes in.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/lampre-not-convinced-ventoso-injury-caused-by-disc-brake-220827

He mentions a "cooling duct" around the rear discs.
Really? Do the discs run that hot that they need to be cooled?
A search for pictures was elusive.

[Neil]

The sponsors will want the pro's on the top end kit for sure, but that doesn't happen today anyway - alloy handlebars for e.g.

If the pro's want calipers let them have them, it'll just be another area where the MAMIL sunny-sunday bike will be in advance of the UCI regs.

It's interesting to see how the UCI spec diverges from what people actually ride - innovation is not being driven by racing here, it's the private individual and the small company (often a one man band) trying something new, something that it would be illegal to ride in a UCI race.

Look at the aerodynamics of the non-UCI TT bikes for an example.

[David Kirk]

are you sure you saw the photo of Ventoso? I'm not searching for photos because I don't want to see. he said it was to the muscle of his calf, from my understanding. but he did say that the EQS rider's injury was in the knee area. maybe that's what you saw? that one is being debated as to whether disc or not, by both rider and team DS, because he said he simply didn't see what did it and it's not clear from the wound.

I can't be sure.........the photo was shown along with a piece about his crash but i can't be sure it wasn't a different or stock photo.

dave

[oldpotatoe]

Who knows how much money is at stake here. Sponsors paying or the team dont want to see themselves stuck with equipment they cant use and that is already paid for?? Budget??

Doubt the team 'paid' for anything but yup, the wrenches are now jumping trying to spec out new frames, with new wheels, with new shifters and new brakes...yummy...The disc bikes will become trainng bikes, i suspect..I'm sure the home wrenches won't have any problems bleeding their brakes at home...:p

[David Kirk]

OK, I'll bite..you mean carbon rims, I assume. Lets see, carbon rims..change the brakes? Why not make carbon rims go away? What would that REALLY mean anything, other than put the hurts on carbon rim and wheel makers? Would it really have a big effect on racing? It would make riding in the rain safer.

Yes.......I'm talking carbon rims. In the dry there are issues with heat capacity and transfer and tubulars coming off and in the wet the brakes work very poorly.

Should carbon rims go away......if rim brakes are mandated that might be something to consider. I can't see it happening as the money is too big but the logic makes some sense.

dave

[David Kirk]

Well, now I curious. Why? What's your argument against?

The riders I have asking about them most often do so because they see the industry going toward discs and they don't want to be left behind. I do my best to assure them that rim brakes aren't going anywhere and that we should choose the type of brakes best suited to their needs. Once we get to this point good things can happen.

I think if the rider rides in all weather (rain or shine) and uses carbon rims, discs can be a good choice. If they ride in the high mountains in the rain, ride cross, ride a loaded touring bike or a tandem then discs can be a good choice.

If on the other hand they don't intend to ride in the rain with carbon rims and they don't ride in the mountains where extended braking can be necessary then discs may not be the best choice. Many riders ride in areas where the only time they really use the brakes is to not hit their garage door when they get home so the last thing they need is disc brakes.

The downsides as I see them are that they add weight and require that the frame and fork be built stiffer to handle the asymmetrical loads of discs (which does nothing to help ride quality). One of course needs to have special wheels built for them so you can't swap with your other rim-braked bikes and one can't barrow a friends wheel in an emergency. Small things in most cases but downsides nonetheless.

So if the rider will no benefit from the added braking power in the wet and superior modulation at all times then why add the weight and cost and possibly detract from the ride quality.

---------------------

I built myself a disc road bike and I liked it. It was my everyday bike for two full years. The braking (both power and the holy grail of modulation) was far better in the wet or dry than any rim brake ever made regardless of rim material. Full stop (pun intended). That said I no longer ride a disc road bike. I ride in the mountains all the time but the climbs, and descents, are open and sweeping and long and seldom all that steep where I even need to use the brakes. Couple that with the fact that I never set out to ride in the rain and I use aluminum rims and the downsides end up outweighing the upsides for me personally.

But all riders are different and the beauty of this time in cycling history is that riders have more choice than ever before and they can buy and use what suits them best regardless if the pros use the stuff.

dave

[David Kirk]

501s are fad-proof and will *always* be in style.



riders avoiding a pileup often unclip 1 foot and "tripod" while braking manically to stay upright. that loose leg will stab out wherever needed, and when the rider is off the saddle the leg can get pretty far forward and low.

That makes good sense. For some reason I thought he'd injured his left leg. Does anyone know for sure where the injury was and on what leg?

dave

[93legendti]

I recall some were using them on TT bikes- at least front wheel, e.g. Lemond's 89' tt bike. Jalabert was using them for climbing stages amongst other things ;)

650c maybe

[Elefantino]

I ride in the mountains all the time but the climbs, and descents, are open and sweeping and long and seldom all that steep where I even need to use the brakes.
This should be in a "Ride Bozeman" commercial! :D

[Jgrooms]

Only a matter of time now on a group ride where everyone is on their 'endurance' rigs & a disc injury occurs. Let the litigation begin.

The manufacturer's engineers are not the only ones hard at work, so are their attorneys reviewing all the safety/product disclaimer literature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bcroslin]

Photos of the injury on CT (http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/ventoso-confirms-disc-brakes-sliced-his-leg-open-calls-for-action-on-giant-knives/) - not for the faint of heart

[benb]

FWIW now that I've seen his picture I would mention I have a huge scar on my left knee.. very similar injury from hitting pavement that had some gravel on it. I don't remember how many stitches, it was a lot, including internal stitches. Mine was arguably worse as he had the flap of skin left to be stitched back on.. I didn't. He's going to have several "line" scars, I have about 4 square inches of pure scar tissue cause everything was gone. I had to have my knee mobilized for 2 weeks as well while it was healing, and had lots of PT as you don't cut yourself that bad without causing other injuries. It was definitely freaky.. It's fine today but for 5 years or more that scar tissue would tear open super easily.

No one has yet to produce any proof he hit a rotor. He said he didn't go down, which makes the scenario even harder to imagine. How did he slice his left knee on the rotor on the right side of someone else's bike without going down.. did the other rider spin 180 degrees? If he'd spun 180 degrees the rotor wouldn't have been spinning fast at that point. Had the other bike flipped or cartwheeled? Meanwhile you could easily get this injury from the edge of a cobble or lots of other stuff on the road. Just a question of hitting just right. I don't really think he'd have an agenda to lie about this but it is weird.

I do find it funny no one has produced huge evidence of discs slicing up MTB riders.. when was the last time rim brakes were on the majority of MTBs? I did my MTB racing 17 years ago and it was 50/50 disc/rim then. I've never heard of a disc cut online in all these years.

Meanwhile still no action on motorcycles. Yay he has some stitches in his leg, it's not like he was killed. The rider who was killed is all but forgotten already, I don't even remember his name, and it wasn't even a month ago!

[ColonelJLloyd]

That's a gnarly cut. I don't see how a rotor with the treatment Dave Kirk describes could inflict that damage without unbelievable force.

I snapped some pics of my TRP rotor. I actually pressed and raked it across my leg at various pressures and angles. Like I said a few pages back, I'd be much more concerned about chain rings.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1638/26147791610_5995fcd696_b.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1613/25815816554_98e581afd0_b.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1688/26394763216_c0bd137d27_b.jpg

[stien]

I do find it funny no one has produced huge evidence of discs slicing up MTB riders.. when was the last time rim brakes were on the majority of MTBs? I did my MTB racing 17 years ago and it was 50/50 disc/rim then. I've never heard of a disc cut online in all these years.

When's the last time you saw a group of mtb racers riding inches apart on narrow cobbled roads with plenty of falls?

[zap]

Checked the Shimano ICE discs we have on one of our tandems. Definitely has sharp edges. Not conducting a leg test..............

[benb]

When's the last time you saw a group of mtb racers riding inches apart on narrow cobbled roads with plenty of falls?

Bunch sprint at the start to the first turn. Every race I ever did there was a multi-rider crash the first corner or the first place the start area narrowed into single track. Same thing in cross actually AFAICT.

[bcroslin]

Ventoso must be part of some anti-disc brake conspiracy. I don't understand why it's so hard to take the guy at his word. He says he stepped into the rotor of the wheel in front of him. He says he didn't hit the deck. What's there not to believe?

I love the disc brakes on my mtb and I even think they're great on a CX bikes but discs in the pro peloton are just a way for bike manufacturers to sell new bikes, wheels, components, etc.

[Elefantino]

Ventoso must be part of some anti-disc brake conspiracy. I don't understand why it's so hard to take the guy at his word.
I don't get it either. Are that many people on this forum invested in the manufacture and sale of disc brakes?

And they needn't worry anyway. Discs are here to stay for John and Jane Doe average rider. The pros have a 6.8kg minimum weight for road bikes. That doesn't stop the public from buying über light bikes.

[chiasticon]

Ventoso must be part of some anti-disc brake conspiracy. I don't understand why it's so hard to take the guy at his word. He says he stepped into the rotor of the wheel in front of him. He says he didn't hit the deck. What's there not to believe?maybe what throws people is that he didn't realize he had actually been injured until he got moving again. but I'm guessing that's when he immediately flashed back to 30 seconds before and thought "I remember colliding into that dude with the discs, when I was trying not to fall..." also from the nature of the cut I'm guessing you could tell; would look cleaner than a chain ring cut, and with no chain lube anywhere on you.

as far as HOW his left leg got injured when the discs are on the left... I'm not gonna look at the pics so I can't speculate further but remember, when those bunch crashes happen, and it's only a three meter wide riding path, it's chaos. we've all seen footage. think of Sagan going over Cancellara's wheel and taking his foot out to steady himself. similar thing (or, again, anything really) could've happened to Ventoso.

[David Kirk]

Ventoso must be part of some anti-disc brake conspiracy. I don't understand why it's so hard to take the guy at his word. He says he stepped into the rotor of the wheel in front of him. He says he didn't hit the deck. What's there not to believe?

I love the disc brakes on my mtb and I even think they're great on a CX bikes but discs in the pro peloton are just a way for bike manufacturers to sell new bikes, wheels, components, etc.

For me it's not a matter of not believing him......for me it's a urge to understand and learn. I'm just having trouble understanding how his left knee could contact a rotor of another rider what one would presume was on his left. With the rotor being on the far side of the other rider's bike it's obvious that if he his his knees on a moving rotor that something happened that allowed got things turned around in a big way.

I don't question his honesty in the slightest.

dave

[MattTuck]

If it was a disc rotor, it would have cauterized the wound as it cut.

[JonB]

Not everything that makes it to the peloton endures:
Front suspension in roubaix
650b wheels
those handlebars
etc. etc.


Don't forget Spinergy Wheels. They disappeared overnight after slicing off part of Bartoli's knee in the '99 Tour of Germany.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/cf3390c19a7b958ea7ea8a1aa561ae6b/tumblr_mhq4bkhJsB1s1r6b5o1_1280.jpg

[thirdgenbird]

Wow, I haven't seen coda branded rev-X wheels in a while.

Thankfully, a safer alternative was also found for those spinachi extensions.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nBWdqnQbP7o/S_hCD9V4nKI/AAAAAAAAAKE/l5aGkGV9J5E/s1600/nibali.jpg

[thwart]

So now Merckx has come out against discs.

And... had an interesting quote about the progress of technology in cycling:

And when asked which modern cycling technology he most wishes had been around when he was racing, the 70-year-old legend leaned forward in his seat and became more animated than at any other point in the evening.

“Click [clipless] pedals and the shifters in the brake levers,” he said. “I’m sure that if I could have ridden the hour record with click pedals I could have done over 50 kilometers.”

[ultraman6970]

Thwart, when this disc thing came up like a year ago, many here said that were dangerous in road racing. No idea if EM was against it from the beginning but IMO sure he did not like them from the begining but since he influential, he had to keep silence.

[Joxster]

1697918631

[oldpotatoe]

1697918631

POSTotWEEK.

[Black Dog]

For me it's not a matter of not believing him......for me it's a urge to understand and learn. I'm just having trouble understanding how his left knee could contact a rotor of another rider what one would presume was on his left. With the rotor being on the far side of the other rider's bike it's obvious that if he his his knees on a moving rotor that something happened that allowed got things turned around in a big way.

I don't question his honesty in the slightest.

dave

Could the rear wheel of the rider in front of him not ended up in-between his left leg and his bike? This would put the rotor near the right side of his left leg.

[David Kirk]

Could the rear wheel of the rider in front of him not ended up in-between his left leg and his bike? This would put the rotor near the right side of his left leg.

I suppose so although I think it would be very difficult to have that happen and not at the same time have his pedal stick into the other rider's bike in some way grinding them both to a stop or putting both of them on the floor.

I wonder if it's possible that he clipped out with his left leg and that his knee was pressed into the rear (upward rising portion) of the rear wheel and that the bladed spokes did the damage? This would certainly be more likely position to end up in.

Who knows? I'm guessing it will never be 100% certain either way.

dave