Bottle cage bolt issue

[kgreene10]

Who would ever think that a simple bottle cage bolt could cause trouble? My new Madone 9 has a stop built into the seat tube (because of the tube within a tube construction) and only allows the cage bolt to penetrate 7mm plus the thickness of the cage itself. That gives about 9mm or a little less.

I prefer not to cut down an existing bolt because getting it stuck in the frame would be disastrous.

Does anyone know where I can source an aluminum (lightweight) version of the appropriate length bolt? Few sources specify the length and when they do, they seem to be 15mm long.

Thanks.

[Mark McM]

Who would ever think that a simple bottle cage bolt could cause trouble? My new Madone 9 has a stop built into the seat tube (because of the tube within a tube construction) and only allows the cage bolt to penetrate 7mm plus the thickness of the cage itself. That gives about 9mm or a little less.

I prefer not to cut down an existing bolt because getting it stuck in the frame would be disastrous.

Does anyone know where I can source an aluminum (lightweight) version of the appropriate length bolt? Few sources specify the length and when they do, they seem to be 15mm long.

Thanks.

Wow, really? How much lighter is an aluminum bolt, like 2 grams?

Just cut down your existing bolt and file off the burrs and sharp edges. Install with a liberal amount of the grease/anti-seize of choice, and you won't have any problems.

[Black Dog]

I would stick to stainless steel. Less chance of it seizing than Al. Non the less, why not cut one down to the correct length? If you have a dremmel it will be really easy to do. If you thread a nut onto the bolt as a cutting guide it will also chase the threads when you remove it and Robert is your mother's brother.

[TimD]

McMaster-Carr. Have fun shopping.
Local HW store. Buy a nylon fastener and trim it to length with cable cutters or an X-Acto knife.

[cadence90]

Toronto Cycles (http://www.torontocycles.com/Selling/Aluminum_Bolts.html) have M5 x 8.5mm.

But your cage bolts are alu, right? Can't you just file down the threaded ends a bit?

Or, just use a thin nylon washer between the bolt head and the cage.

[AngryScientist]

put a couple of stainless washers under the cage and call it good.

[kgreene10]

Thanks. Maybe a nylon washer is the way to go. I would cut them down, except that my LBS suggested that I could run into trouble. Trek did too. I don't have any experience with what I'm sure is a simple task but figured it best not to experiment with a new and expensive frame.

[purpurite]

Thanks. Maybe a nylon washer is the way to go. I would cut them down, except that my LBS suggested that I could run into trouble. Trek did too. I don't have any experience with what I'm sure is a simple task but figured it best not to experiment with a new and expensive frame.

I don't understand how a shortened bolt would cause trouble. If you need a 9mm long bolt to hold the cage on, make it 9mm long and call it a day. Bottle cage bolts are not holding the bike together. This isn't rocket surgery.

[cadence90]

Any hardware store should have the nylon washers.

If you don't have any nearby, my local store (right around the corner) has tons of them. You could PM me diameter, thickness, and mailing address, and I could post some to you.

[Cicli]

Thanks. Maybe a nylon washer is the way to go. I would cut them down, except that my LBS suggested that I could run into trouble. Trek did too. I don't have any experience with what I'm sure is a simple task but figured it best not to experiment with a new and expensive frame.

Your lbs sounds like a bunch if lemmings that cant cut a bolt.
Its no big deal.

Go pro and run a camleback.

[kgreene10]

McMaster-Carr. Have fun shopping.
Local HW store. Buy a nylon fastener and trim it to length with cable cutters or an X-Acto knife.


Pretty fun catalog for hardware geeks. Looks like these should work in 5/16" length. http://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-head-cap-screws/=11w9umv

[purpurite]

Speak metric! :D

[cadence90]

Wait, how long are the bolts that don't fit?

If they are really too long, washers might interfere with the bottle engaging the cage (doubt it though, unless yours are some crazy length).

I can't believe your lbs and Trek are telling you that; they are just alu cage bolts. Filing them down is easy, de-burr, done. Trust us, they will NOT "cause trouble". Those guys are nuts for telling you that.

[cadence90]

Speak metric! :D

Not a joke.
Using the incorrect thread pitch would definitely not be good.

[kgreene10]

Hey now, there's no need for some of the attitude on this thread. Let's all calm down a bit and remember how nice we usually are to each other.

I'm following Trek and my LBS's recommendations and I just don't happen to have experience in adapting existing hardware. I see no need to bodge something together and risk (even minimally) damaging a new frame or a not inexpensive carbon bottle cage just so I can avoid ordering a pre-made bolt that will work.

We want to continue to encourage people to post whatever bike-related questions they have without discouragement. There are plenty of other places to get negative attitude on the internet. Besides, I'm a long-time member who has given out plenty of advice to others on issues sometimes as small and seemingly insignificant as this one.

[kgreene10]

Wait, how long are the bolts that don't fit?

If they are really too long, washers might interfere with the bottle engaging the cage (doubt it though, unless yours are some crazy length).

I can't believe your lbs and Trek are telling you that; they are just alu cage bolts. Filing them down is easy, de-burr, done. Trust us, they will NOT "cause trouble". Those guys are nuts for telling you that.

Current bolts are 15mm, so will need to take off ~6mm. File or hacksaw? De-burr means to file off the rough edges after the cut? I guess I could give it a shot and then have the LBS inspect. I'm there all the time anyway.

[purpurite]

No negative attitudes that I can see. The bolt is too long—cut it down to the necessary length with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel, smooth off the ends with a file or bench grinder. Done. Simple, and no need to involve a bike shop.

Everyone is so litigious, that Trek and shop owners are constantly in CYA mode. They aren't going to tell you to do anything they can get paid to do for you. Then again, there are a lot of dolts working at bike shops, too.

Bikes are wonderfully simple machines. They should be enjoyable to work on yourself. It's gratifying to do even the most simple tasks on your own, trust me.




Run a bolt into the frame until it bottoms out, measure the remaining exposed bolt or mark the bolt thread at the frame with a paint marker. Take the bolt out and you now see how long the bolt can be at it's max length. Add the thickness of the bottle cage mount, and you have a total frame depth + cage thickness. Subtract 1mm for space and make the threads that length exactly. Mount bottle cage. Fill water bottle. Ride. :)

[54ny77]

Other than changing your cage to accommodate the mounting constraint, here's a super simple suggestion: use an inner tube nut (the round thing that comes on all stems), slide it on the bolt so that it sits between cage and seat tube. Presto, the gap is filled, you'll never see that round nut, and bolt goes into the threaded seat tube hole.

I've done that on so many bikes where the cage design (usually carbon ones, like Arundel) hits the front derailleur clamp. The stem nut solution is basically a freebie, and works like a charm.

King cages don't have that mounting constraint, however.

[weisan]

Thank upon pal for taking the time to write up very thorough instructions.

[cadence90]

Current bolts are 15mm, so will need to take off ~6mm. File or hacksaw? De-burr means to file off the rough edges after the cut? I guess I could give it a shot and then have the LBS inspect. I'm there all the time anyway.

OK.
The length is measured from the underside of the bolt head to the end of the threads.
15 - 9 = 6, so you need to trim 6mm off to get a 9mm length.

Generally, because of the soft material, you don't really want to cut alu cage bolts aggressively; filing is gentler.
However, you can lightly clamp the bolts in a vise (in a towel to protect the finish on the head); gently saw with a 32tpi (or more) hacksaw blade (or just file off the entire 6mm); then file the new end clean with a fine-tooth file.
Yes, de-burring just means lighting filing hitting the cut edges to smooth them out.
Use a light dab of blue Loctite when re-installing the cages/bolts.

It's a 5-minute job at most, very simple.
No need to have the lbs inspect; their initial advice was hardly strong....

EDIT: basically what upon3 said, although I would discourage you using Dremels/grinders/electrical cutting devices on these bolts; you'll see that with a fine hacksaw blade/fine file they will cut like butter. No worries.

[purpurite]

EDIT: basically what upon3 said, although I would discourage you using Dremels/grinders/electrical cutting devices on these bolts; you'll see that with a fine hacksaw blade/fine file they will curt like butter. No worries.

Anytime there is an opportunity to use power equipment, it should be taken. :D

Need. Moar. Power.




Never stand when you can sit. Never sit when you can lie down. ;)

[oldpotatoe]

Any hardware store should have the nylon washers.

If you don't have any nearby, my local store (right around the corner) has tons of them. You could PM me diameter, thickness, and mailing address, and I could post some to you.

Or use the wee nuts that come on inner tube valves. But I'll concur with those who say stainless. Yes aluminum are lighter but that doesn't mean stainless steel are heavy. Plus anti seize on those threads.

[oldpotatoe]

Anytime there is an opportunity to use power equipment, it should be taken. :D

Need. Moar. Power.




Never stand when you can sit. Never sit when you can lie down. ;)

Never run when you can walk. Never walk when you can ride.

[cadence90]

Anytime there is an opportunity to use power equipment, it should be taken. :D

Need. Moar. Power.




Never stand when you can sit. Never sit when you can lie down. ;)

"FOR THE VERY BEST IN M5 x 15 ALLOY BOLT CUTTING UPON3 PROUDLY SUGGESTS ONLY THE FINEST TOOLS":

http://www.kibbleeq.com/sites/default/files/images/stihl-spread.jpg

[cadence90]

Or use the wee nuts that come on inner tube valves. But I'll concur with those who say stainless. Yes aluminum are lighter but that doesn't mean stainless steel are heavy. Plus anti seize on those threads.
Agree on ss durability.

Now I dare you to post your weight pint over on WW....:D

[purpurite]

No, no, no... you've taken the wrong angle.

This.
http://www.hydraulicboltcutter.com/store/image/cache/data/BC16-120V-500x500.jpg




THAT cuts like butter.

[cadence90]

Sorry, didn't see that one.

You really need to update the "upon3's Alloy Bottle Cage Bolt Cutting Hot Pro Tips" section of your website....

[purpurite]

I'm on it.

Next up, filling your tires using industrial nitrogen tanks and adjusting headsets with plumbing tools.







I can't believe all of the discussion around making a bolt shorter. I think the crappy spring weather in the Midwest might be finally getting to me. :butt:

[benb]

How can I be the first person to say, "Tell the dealer to get the correct bolts from Trek and don't let them charge you for them!" ???

The right bolts have got to exist, what the heck came with the frame? I just got a 5-series Domane frameset, and it came with bolts, unless it didn't and the shop just put them in. I don't really ever recall having a frame come without the bolts though. These are not exactly cheap frames (especially yours), they should not be screwing this up.

[AngryScientist]

i cant believe people use aluminum for bottle cage bolts.

titanium people, titanium! :D

[David Kirk]

Personally I'd go to Ace Hardware and buy the proper length button head (lighter than tall head) bolts and call it a day. An 8mm long button head stainless bolt weighs 1 gam so all four weigh 4 grams. Aluminum is about 30% lighter so you'll end up saving 1.2 grams to use the alloy bolts all around.

Combine this with the fact that the stainless is many times stronger and so very much less to corrode and get stuck and it's a no-brainer in my mind.

dave

[cadence90]

I'm on it.

Next up, filling your tires using industrial nitrogen tanks and adjusting headsets with plumbing tools.







I can't believe all of the discussion around making a bolt shorter. I think the crappy spring weather in the Midwest might be finally getting to me. :butt:
Appreciate it.

And, today is one of the three days a year that it is rains in LA.

Bolt cutting advice seekers, rejoice!

[cadence90]

How can I be the first person to say, "Tell the dealer to get the correct bolts from Trek and don't let them charge you for them!" ??
Come on, too logical.

You can't engender 3 pages of commentary with THAT suggestion! :)

[kgreene10]

How can I be the first person to say, "Tell the dealer to get the correct bolts from Trek and don't let them charge you for them!" ???

The right bolts have got to exist, what the heck came with the frame? I just got a 5-series Domane frameset, and it came with bolts, unless it didn't and the shop just put them in. I don't really ever recall having a frame come without the bolts though. These are not exactly cheap frames (especially yours), they should not be screwing this up.

Silly, but true. The Madone 9 does not come with bottle cage bolts. So says the LBS where I got it and so says the Trek tech I communicated with by e-mail. Honestly, I can't believe it either.

I've been thoroughly convinced to use stainless bolts. I'll see what the LBS has or file down some I already have or use a washer or a valve stem holder.

[cadence90]

That is so odd, on Trek's part.

I would send you 4 ss bolts, but mine are all M5 x 15mm.
I agree on using stainless, too. Cutting/filing is a bit tougher than alu, but these are thin enough. Hopefully, you find M5 x 0.80 (pitch) x 8mm long at your hardware store.

If not:
The Flea (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PIECE-M5-0-80-X-8MM-THRU-60MM-STAINLESS-STEEL-BUTTON-HEAD-CAP-SCREW-BOLT-/291711703225?var=&hash=item43eb5f58b9:m:mrVrV2njP8yoW196TqOnmEg)

Don't forget the anti-seize.

[Matthew]

I did what oldpotato suggests on an old frame of mine. The cages I had would not clear the front derailleur clamp so I used the nuts from a couple inner tubes and placed them between the frame and cages. Bingo, problem solved!

[Peter P.]

I'll hazard a guess and say Trek recommends aluminum bolts because the female threads are aluminum, and any dissimilar metal bolt has a greater potential to seize even if greased but forgotten.

One problem with filing down an aluminum bolt is the file teeth will fill with aluminum reducing the effectiveness of the file, unless you have a file card.

I would not use spacers under the bolts or under the waterbottle cage; they'll add unnecessary weight. :rolleyes:

Definitely go with a bench grinder if you can use one; it'll make quick work of a steel bolt. Then file smooth the end of the shortened bolt, add grease, and Bob's your uncle! (I just wanted to use that phrase.)

[David Kirk]

Button head M5 x 8mm long are a stock item at Ace Hardware. They are about 25 cents each.

dave

[Buzz Killington]

The LBS won't throw in some bolts with a purchase like that? Crazy! I'd find a new LBS. Or take another bike for a test ride and go around the corner and remove the cage bolts from that bike. Just kidding......

[cadence90]

...and Bob's your uncle! (I just wanted to use that phrase.)
I have, thankfully, nothing further to add to the "Great April Eight Bottle Cage Bolt Debate of 2016"...just about anything suggested here will work fine, really.

That said, true story: when I moved to the US from Italy (my mother was Italian, my father American) my father's sister was married to a guy named...Bob.

So, learning English, the first time I heard, "Bob's your uncle..." I was thoroughly confused.

[Tony T]

40 posts on a water bottle cage bolt! ;)

[kgreene10]

The LBS won't throw in some bolts with a purchase like that? Crazy! I'd find a new LBS. Or take another bike for a test ride and go around the corner and remove the cage bolts from that bike. Just kidding......

They did give me bolts, of course, but they are too long. No one at my LBS is mean, doltish, or ignorant. They are really great and treat me wonderfully. They just don't happen to have short M5 bolts. The Madone is new and everyone is learning it's peculiarities bit by bit.

[dustyrider]

Ahh.. The paceline! :cool:

[kramnnim]

I'm confused about why they say you cannot cut the bolts down...what is their reason?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm confused about why they say you cannot cut the bolts down...what is their reason?

I think the reason is obvious in the post about not having the right length bolts and the horror of cutting them down. It's a bolt, that holds a water bottle cage, I don't agree with the OP when he says the LBS isn't 'ignorant'.

[cadence90]

I'm confused about why they say you cannot cut the bolts down...what is their reason?

I think the reason is obvious in the post about not having the right length bolts and the horror of cutting them down. It's a bolt, that holds a water bottle cage, I don't agree with the OP when he says the LBS isn't 'ignorant'.

Only 3 possible reasons in the entire known universe, really.

Reason #1: Certain "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious-Ultra-Limited Edition" proprietary, top-secret, TM registered, etc., etc. Trek bottle cage bolts were manufactured with a teeny-tiny dab of LA's DNA inside each one...cut them, and who the he1! knows what will happen...at a minimum, Apocaellipses Right Now, with a bunch of mini-LAs bossing the back-street borgo peletons....

Reason #2: Il spudmaestro is 100% correct.

Reason #3: Il spudmaestro is 100% correct.

In Keith Bontrager's immortal words, "Pick two."*
.
.
.
*At your own risk, of course.
.
.
.Reason for Posting?: Page 4, of course!

[ultraman6970]

46.

40 posts on a water bottle cage bolt! ;)

[cadence90]

Don't be modest, now: yours was #47.

[jmal]

Get new bolts, but if you decide to cut them, it is very easy. I'd also suggest an inexpensive tap and die set rather than a file for deburring. The set comes in handy for all sorts of stuff if you find yourself working on things with less than desirable qc.

[ultraman6970]

To cut a bolt the only thing you need is a darn dremel and the matching nut for the bolt... screw the nut all the way in... cut or file (or both) using the dremel, remove the nut and apply some paint in the tip of the bolt just to avoid rust issues.

This is not a problem an LBS has not encounter before, that's the part that questions people here :) Not that is that hard to cut them or go to the hardware store and get new ones, the other thing is that add 2 or 5 more grams to the bike is not going to allow you (anybody) to ride 15 mph down hill you know :D

[cadence90]

OK, very serious question here now:

Is this shark really happy to see the op's lbs/Trek "expert advisors", or is that just any old common M5 x 0.80 x 8mm bottle cage bolt in its mouf? :confused:

http://deepseacreatures.org/images/stories/shark-jump/shark-jump-11.jpg

[Tony T]

Wow, 4 pages and 51 responses now.

ok, so the OP does not want to cut the bolts, many say he should (and I agree), but, if the OP wants to buy a short bolt then we should just try to help (20 responses discussing cutting the bolt is not helping)

Here's a source I use for bolts: http://www.torontocycles.com
Under the cages section (http://www.torontocycles.com/King_Titanium_Bottle_Cages.html), there's an 8.5mm shallow head TI screws that should work for him.

http://www.torontocycles.com/images/Black_Titanium_Shallow_Head_Bolt.jpg

[kgreene10]

OK, thank you all for your advice (some), scorn (others), and aspersions (yet others). Some of you did manage to hit the trifecta. Please don't respond to this thread anymore. I'm feeling disappointed with this place today.

[Tony T]

Did you look at the link to the Ti bolts I posted?
They seem to be what you're looking for.

[cadence90]

OK, thank you all for your advice (some), scorn (others), and aspersions (yet others). Some of you did manage to hit the trifecta. Please don't respond to this thread anymore. I'm feeling disappointed with this place today.

Well, that's disappointing in its own right, because you got a sh#t-ton of real help/advice here.

[Rapid Tourist]

Wow, 4 pages and 51 responses now.

ok, so the OP does not want to cut the bolts, many say he should (and I agree), but, if the OP wants to buy a short bolt then we should just try to help (20 responses discussing cutting the bolt is not helping)

Here's a source I use for bolts: http://www.torontocycles.com
Under the cages section (http://www.torontocycles.com/King_Titanium_Bottle_Cages.html), there's an 8.5mm shallow head TI screws that should work for him.

http://www.torontocycles.com/images/Black_Titanium_Shallow_Head_Bolt.jpg

Just want to shout out a THANKS to Tony T. Wow that Toronto Cycles site has every bolt you could possibly need. I just ordered a boat-load! thanks for posting!

[cadence90]

That was my very first suggestion, way back on page 1, before I got advice-ful, scorn-ful, and aspersion-ful....

[tuxbailey]

Given that there was snow falling in Howard County, MD today. I reckon that winter is still with us.

[Tony T]

That was my very first suggestion, way back on page 1..

I missed that.
The thread should have ended after your post #5
How the hell did this thread get to over 50 posts when you gave the OP what he was looking for after 5 posts?

[Cicli]

This whould work ans save any issue with a bolt hole.

[Aang]

“One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of seat-tube bottle cage bolt fittings on the Madone 9. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day.”

— Albert Einstein


“And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in product photos at trekbikes.com. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.”

— Roald Dahl

1697918303

[kramnnim]

This whould work ans save any issue with a bolt hole.

What size pipe clamp would Trek recommend if one were to do this?

[Cicli]

What size pipe clamp would Trek recommend if one were to do this?

What, want me to do everything? Geeeeeze. :bike: :banana:;)