Small road race directors struggle with detecting doping

[djg21]

The story shows how sport's doping problem has trickled down to the non-elite, amateur level. Suddenly, a practice more usually associated with Olympic champions and Tour de France cyclists is hitting close to home for runners like Arnold.

http://www.timesunion.com/sports/article/Small-road-race-directors-struggle-with-detecting-7229375.php

[carpediemracing]

A local rider, Cat 3, used to rely on his prize money for income. He could clear $1500 on a solid weekend, doing multiple races each day and placing in all of them. That was admittedly a high number, but the reality is that he was probably clearing $500 in many weekends in just one event. This was back about 20 years ago so it was substantial income. He leveraged his age to race Masters so as not to get upgraded, and when he did get upgraded, he'd finish off the back in 10 races, ask for a downgrade (you can do so if you aren't competitive in the new category), and be back at Cat 3 by May, just in time for the money crits. He no longer does this, and I don't see him at races much anymore.

I did a local "non-race" back in the 90s, organized by a running race person. I never knew there was prize money, just that the best riders in the area took part. It was funny, there were often national team members, or former national team members, lining up. The battle at the front was incredible, and only when I brought a slew of riders for two years did I manage to place. For a "non-race" first place was $500, second was $250, and third was $100, or something like that. I got third one year, 4th another.

A heavily stacked prize list encourages cheating/doping/etc.

I once got 4th in a race. I got $90, which I thought was great, until I learned that the winner got $900! This was in Cat 3s no less. It was the only race where I was off the front with a substantial gap (20 seconds, 6 km to go, and not blowing up) and I trusted my sprint more than my time trialing so I sat up and waited for the field. It took them half a lap/km to catch me. To this day I wonder what would have happened if I had kept going.

A NYC race series had a great solution to the incredibly hard fought sprints/races for the big pay off. They made all the prizes equal - first through tenth paid $35 each. If you won, $35. 10th? $35. It reduced the fiscal rewards to make it more of an amateur race.

Of course now Battenkill doesn't offer money to most of the categories. I think this may be something we'll see in the future.

Not that I have any say in the matter but I think running races ought to be similar. It would certainly discourage the mercenary runners. It would also allow locals to partake in some of the money (assuming the out of town mercenaries are the ones winning the big money prizes).

[gdw]

Sad but not surprising. I knew an elite local runner who only raced events where he knew he could win prize money. He was in grad school and used the cash for food and miscellaneous expenses. He would never have considered using EPO or steroids even if he could have afforded them.

[MattTuck]

Yeah, I just don't get the idea of prize money for amateur races. It creates too many incentives for questionable behavior (whether that be doping, sandbagging, selecting certain races and not others).

I'm certainly not in danger of winning any races any time soon. Still, it just doesn't make sense to me. And frankly, what cycling racing needs is a more broad access point to bring people into the sport. Ratcheting up the competition (and thus the level of ability required to be competitive) is not a good idea, in my opinion.

[GregL]

Same issue in my little corner of the world. There's a Cat. 2 who I am acquainted with that regularly cherry picks local citizen races with cash payouts. I've seen him do it many times. I wish all amateur sports had no cash prizes to discourage this type of behavior...

- Greg

[Dead Man]

Yeah, I just don't get the idea of prize money for amateur races. It creates too many incentives for questionable behavior (whether that be doping, sandbagging, selecting certain races and not others).

I'm certainly not in danger of winning any races any time soon. Still, it just doesn't make sense to me. And frankly, what cycling racing needs is a more broad access point to bring people into the sport. Ratcheting up the competition (and thus the level of ability required to be competitive) is not a good idea, in my opinion.

I know I'll register for a $500 pot before I register for an empty one, and fight. I am dope, but I don't dope.

Leave prize money alone

https://media.makeameme.org/created/leave-prize-money.jpg

[Dead Man]

Same issue in my little corner of the world. There's a Cat. 2 who I am acquainted with that regularly cherry picks local citizen races with cash payouts. I've seen him do it many times. I wish all amateur sports had no cash prizes to discourage this type of behavior...

- Greg

Why do you care, though? Don't you cherry-pick your races also? So what if someone does it for the elevation, distance, category/field formation, or money? We've all got our priorities.

[GregL]

Why do you care, though? Don't you cherry-pick your races also? So what if someone does it for the elevation, distance, category/field formation, or money? We've all got our priorities.
I care because I find it distasteful for a Cat. 2 to race against unlicensed riders for the purpose of winning money. To me, it's the equivalent of a pool shark hustling local players. If no money was at stake, I would have no issue.

- Greg

[peanutgallery]

Story reminds me of all the Russians etc that appeared in the 90s to ride on the local cat1/2 road team, steal/crash the team car and run off without splitting the winnings or returning things like bikes/wheels that suckas loaned him.

There was a bucket headed fellow named Nikolai that did the scorched earth thing in the Southeast for a while. Hope he ended up in the gulag

[Dead Man]

I care because I find it distasteful for a Cat. 2 to race against unlicensed riders for the purpose of winning money. To me, it's the equivalent of a pool shark hustling local players. If no money was at stake, I would have no issue.

- Greg

I missed the "citizen races" part - i don't think we really have those

Is that a big thing over there?

---

continuing on with my argument, though...

Some dudes AREN'T in it for the money - they just want the upgrade. Those guys will look for races with LOWER payouts, while steel-cable-leg guys chase the big money.

Something for everyone

[JStonebarger]

A heavily stacked prize list encourages cheating/doping/etc.

Does it really? Granted, I pick races for things other than payout, but to me it seems like cheating and doping happen regardless. "If you're not cheating, you're not trying" seems broader than the local prize list.

[GregL]

I missed the "citizen races" part - i don't think we really have those

Is that a big thing over there?

---

continuing on with my argument, though...

Some dudes AREN'T in it for the money - they just want the upgrade. Those guys will look for races with LOWER payouts, while steel-cable-leg guys chase the big money.

Something for everyone
There used to be many well-organized citizen (unsanctioned) road races in central and western NY. They were a nice entry to the sport for new riders. Unfortunately, a combination of factors (including NY state law requiring large insurance policies for races held on public roads) have cut their numbers down drastically. I can only think of one left on paved roads. On the plus side, there are several new gravel races.

I have no issue with riders chasing upgrade points within USA Cycling rules. I've even seen officials take riders to task for sandbagging and pushing them to upgrade :D.

- Greg

[MattTuck]

Why do you care, though? Don't you cherry-pick your races also? So what if someone does it for the elevation, distance, category/field formation, or money? We've all got our priorities.

The whole point of the cat system in cycling is to put people of similar skill and ability into the same field so that they can have a competition among equals. If people are purposely messing with their results (to downgrade to a lower cat, for instance) so that they can win money in a lower category, that is the absolute antithesis of the categorization system.

If you have a bunch of guys that could ride cat 3 or 4, but drop down a level because they're enticed by prize money, that is, no different than doping to get prize money. It's getting an unfair advantage over the rest of the field.

I don't have a problem with people who are motivated to race certain races because of available prizes (give them gift cards for bike service, or REI, or whatever), I just have a problem with people who then cheat so that they have a better shot at winning those prizes.

[berserk87]

Folks are going to cheat regardless of prize money. The money just adds some luster to your achievement, at the amateur level.

There were 3 guys cheating in my state TT last year, which paid nothing.

[Dead Man]

The whole point of the cat system in cycling is to put people of similar skill and ability into the same field so that they can have a competition among equals. If people are purposely messing with their results (to downgrade to a lower cat, for instance) so that they can win money in a lower category, that is the absolute antithesis of the categorization system.

If you have a bunch of guys that could ride cat 3 or 4, but drop down a level because they're enticed by prize money, that is, no different than doping to get prize money. It's getting an unfair advantage over the rest of the field.

I don't have a problem with people who are motivated to race certain races because of available prizes (give them gift cards for bike service, or REI, or whatever), I just have a problem with people who then cheat so that they have a better shot at winning those prizes.

Happens in every sport. It's the upgrade/classification officials' responsibility to take an objective look at guys' results and ensure they're in the right class. Robbing all the cash money would just make the whole thing less competitive and less interesting, for sake of a handful of douchebags.

[MattTuck]

Happens in every sport. It's the upgrade/classification officials' responsibility to take an objective look at guys' results and ensure they're in the right class. Robbing all the cash money would just make the whole thing less competitive and less interesting, for sake of a handful of douchebags.

Disagree. If you remove an incentive that has the effect of decreasing the competitiveness in a field, why would you expect the competitiveness to decrease further?

It has been noted above that cash prizes influence people's behavior in ways that lead to less competitive races, not more.

If you're saying the linkage between prize money and competitive contests lies in attracting a higher number of racers, I think that only holds up if you can show that these racers are accurately categorized.

On the contrary, if people believe they have no shot at winning a race because of others racing below their category, I'd contend they're more likely to stay home and have a negative effect on race participation, overall making it less competitive.

The incentives (pecuniary, or otherwise) should be to get people to race at the highest level they can, not to race at the lowest level they can get away with. If you insist on keeping the prize money, for instance, then a 10th place at a Cat 3 race should pay more than 1st place in a Cat 4 event (as an example). If you have people hanging around in cat 4 fields when they could be cat 3, then that makes it more difficult for cat 5 racers to feel good enough to upgrade to cat 4, which in turn makes beginners who want to try racing feel like even cat 5 is too much for them.

[Dead Man]

Disagree. If you remove an incentive that has the effect of decreasing the competitiveness in a field, why would you expect the competitiveness to decrease further?

It has been noted above that cash prizes influence people's behavior in ways that lead to less competitive races, not more.

If you're saying the linkage between prize money and competitive contests lies in attracting a higher number of racers, I think that only holds up if you can show that these racers are accurately categorized.

On the contrary, if people believe they have no shot at winning a race because of others racing below their category, I'd contend they're more likely to stay home and have a negative effect on race participation, overall making it less competitive.

The incentives (pecuniary, or otherwise) should be to get people to race at the highest level they can, not to race at the lowest level they can get away with. If you insist on keeping the prize money, for instance, then a 10th place at a Cat 3 race should pay more than 1st place in a Cat 4 event (as an example). If you have people hanging around in cat 4 fields when they could be cat 3, then that makes it more difficult for cat 5 racers to feel good enough to upgrade to cat 4, which in turn makes beginners who want to try racing feel like even cat 5 is too much for them.

Good luck with that campaign.

[carpediemracing]

Does it really? Granted, I pick races for things other than payout, but to me it seems like cheating and doping happen regardless. "If you're not cheating, you're not trying" seems broader than the local prize list.

True that, and I agree. However I would say that a stacked prize list will make some people take more chances, it's just that those people come from a subset of the racer population. You should see the sprints for $100 primes in one of the local races - guys I've never seen before doing massive efforts to win them, then they pull off the course because that's all they wanted to do.

I get that honor/prestige has priceless value. After 20 or 30 years I appreciate a (cheap) trophy or something more than a $100 pay out. But in the heat of the moment if I knew there'd be an $800 difference if I jumped now or just after the turn, I'd have been more inclined to jump now (in the case of my 1st vs 4th payout race). Or I wouldn't have sat up at 6 to go.

I was also pleasantly surprised at the "even over 10 places" $35 payout. I got 6th that day, had to leave before I got the prize money, got it from the promoter (a fellow racer/promoter and someone that did my races as well - we typically waived each other's entry fee) maybe a year or two later. He gave me the money, at his insistence, and said something like "Dude, I think that's the latest that someone's finally gotten their prize money!"

But yeah, I think that the cheaters are cheating for something other than money. I think dirty riding (meaning some sketchiness, not dirty as in "doped") come into play with money. Some riders see the red mist when money pops up.

[MattTuck]

Good luck with that campaign.

Remember, I'm an academic, so my approach to these situations is sometimes overly analytical. (Read: not based in the real world) :help: :)

I do admit that my plan may not be practical, as it is more of a philosophical position anyway. But it does seem like the article (and other anecdotal evidence in this thread and elsewhere) bring up valid points about the impact that prize money can have on some races.

[shovelhd]

A couple of facts, then an opinion.

Cat5 races (and Juniors as well) cannot offer prizes of commercial value. Cash, bike parts, gift cards, etc. A Cat2 cannot enter a Cat5 race unless the registrar screwed up. However anyone can enter a non-USAC race and win cash. It's common for domestic pros to dominate gravel races and gran fondos with big payouts.

The real scum in the OP's article is the agent.

[pavel]

A local rider, Cat 3, used to rely on his prize money for income.

This is not a sound financial strategy.

[livingminimal]

Uh, most amateurs are not doping for money.

They're doping to get into (or stay into) cat1. They desire the ego boost and "prestige" (to them and a few cyclists, no one else really cares) so that in hanging around the shop, they can be talked about as the fast guy that lines up to race.

Or, they're doing it for Strava, or some combination therein.

It's for bragging, mostly. 99.9% of the people who toe up on Sunday are paying, one way or the other, for the right to do so. It's a net loss hobby/passion/whatever. Doping at the level's were talking about, especially Masters, is for personal glory. It isn't for cash.

[berserk87]

Uh, most amateurs are not doping for money.

They're doping to get into (or stay into) cat1. They desire the ego boost and "prestige" (to them and a few cyclists, no one else really cares) so that in hanging around the shop, they can be talked about as the fast guy that lines up to race.

Or, they're doing it for Strava, or some combination therein.

It's for bragging, mostly. 99.9% of the people who toe up on Sunday are paying, one way or the other, for the right to do so. It's a net loss hobby/passion/whatever. Doping at the level's were talking about, especially Masters, is for personal glory. It isn't for cash.

Other than beginning your post with "Uh", I agree 100%.

When you begin a response with "Uh", it appears that you think that the post you are responding to is so dumb that it is giving you pause, and it is an unbecoming habit. Maybe I am sensitive to it because my teenagers pull this type of thing on me all of the time right now.

[carpediemracing]

This is not a sound financial strategy.

For most of us that is true. For this rider, for about 10 years, it seemed pretty sound. Keep in mind that during that time he managed to win a number of national titles (crit, sprint) yet he was a Cat 3, so he cleaned up as a 3 (and M35, and later, M45). I have no idea if he was doping but holy smokes some of the moves he pulled in races just blew my mind. It was a combination of talent, gobs of riding skill, lack of fear of crashing (to paraphrase what he told a teammate, "You have to push through the other riders, crash them, even if you crash also. If you crash then next time the guy will let you through!", after his teammate got boxed in on the last lap of a crit), and a massive, massive dose of intimidation.

I butted heads with him a number of times, usually when working for much better teammates (because if we went head to head he beat me every single time). In one race alone (Poughkeepsie race in the park, a circuit race, I think held just one or two years in that format) he repeatedly slapped/hit my helmet a number of times, brake checked me at just under 50 mph (he attacked on a descent where we hit 48-49 mph, I followed, he slammed the brakes on), skipped his rear wheel left and right to hit my front wheel, screamed obscenities in my ear from a few inches away while grabbing me, plus the regular stuff like elbowing or pushing me or just riding next to me while glaring at me, for a few laps, maybe 15-20 minutes, easing up only around the start finish area. The others in the field actually gave us room. Then in the sprint, ironically, the angry guy was marking me so hard that when I fell (a different guy totally not connected to either of us swung across the road as I was passing him) he tumbled over me. I was laughing when I got up. The break stayed away, my teammate got his upgrade points, and I was happy.

I have to admit I'm afraid of him in a physical/personal way (meaning he'd beat the crap out of me) so his intimidation tactics work. Still afraid of him, to this day.

On the other hand nowadays he wouldn't be able to get away with such stuff because of the prevalence of bike/helmet cams (including mine). I haven't seen him say boo for years now.

[shovelhd]

Other than beginning your post with "Uh", I agree 100%.

When you begin a response with "Uh", it appears that you think that the post you are responding to is so dumb that it is giving you pause, and it is an unbecoming habit. Maybe I am sensitive to it because my teenagers pull this type of thing on me all of the time right now.

That's his deal. He's doing just what you say he is.

I don't agree completely. Prizes are part of the self flaggelation. They make the bragging rights real. It's not about the cash per se, it's about splitting it with your teammates so you can be "the man".

[Dead Man]

Going back to things that demotivate 5s to even register - combined 3/4/5 fields do that way more than anybody sandbagging prize money. Most 5s don't even know that crap happens... but they for sure know they have no chance even sticking to the peloton when fields get stuffed 3-deep

[shovelhd]

I haven't seen 3/4/5 fields out here. 4/5 is bad enough. Putting a virgin racer in a field with 74 others is nuts, but that's the USAC way. Deep end of the pool.

[livingminimal]

Other than beginning your post with "Uh", I agree 100%.

When you begin a response with "Uh", it appears that you think that the post you are responding to is so dumb that it is giving you pause, and it is an unbecoming habit. Maybe I am sensitive to it because my teenagers pull this type of thing on me all of the time right now.


The Kids are Alright

[Dead Man]

I haven't seen 3/4/5 fields out here. 4/5 is bad enough. Putting a virgin racer in a field with 74 others is nuts, but that's the USAC way. Deep end of the pool.

http://www.obra.org/flyers/2016/kvrr_2016.pdf

Good luck, 5s.

They're not even scoring them separately.

[livingminimal]

That's his deal. He's doing just what you say he is.

I don't agree completely. Prizes are part of the self flaggelation. They make the bragging rights real. It's not about the cash per se, it's about splitting it with your teammates so you can be "the man".

The prizes are a minimal part of the equation. If they offered nothing, these types would still dope.
"I won two primes!"
"Oh yeah? Whatcha get?"
"I dunno some power bars or some ****"

Regular convo. It's the winning that counts. The town/county line sprint is what gets talked about all week in lots of group rides. Doping is for the glory of being that guy, not the menial prizes that a accompany it.

[livingminimal]

http://www.obra.org/flyers/2016/kvrr_2016.pdf

Good luck, 5s.

They're not even scoring them separately.

This made me lol.

[bigbill]

In the earlyish 90's I upgraded to cat 2 based on experience and a request to race with teammates in P/1/2 races to do domestique stuff. The vast majority of what I did was 2/3 races. The year I turned 30, I requested and received a downgrade to 3 because the masters events were 3/4. Cat 2's raced with 2's even if they were 40.

People were doping in amateur ranks 20+ years ago. Whether it was steroids over the winter, cortisone injections, or even EPO. There wasn't much money but there was a narrow window to make a name for yourself and get noticed by a pro team. If you weren't a cat 1/pro by your mid 20's, you might as well get a real job.

If I ever return to racing, I'll definitely have low T and need therapy.;)

[numbskull]

. Maybe I am sensitive to it because my teenagers pull this type of thing on me all of the time right now.

This was the best $10 I ever spent.

http://www.amazon.com/Life-First-Could-Drive-Cheryl/dp/0374528535

[peanutgallery]

Sounds like roid rage

A bully in the masters? He should tried that in the pro1/2, wouldn't have ended well for him back then. Guys lik Graeme miller used punching bags not power meters to train

For most of us that is true. For this rider, for about 10 years, it seemed pretty sound. Keep in mind that during that time he managed to win a number of national titles (crit, sprint) yet he was a Cat 3, so he cleaned up as a 3 (and M35, and later, M45). I have no idea if he was doping but holy smokes some of the moves he pulled in races just blew my mind. It was a combination of talent, gobs of riding skill, lack of fear of crashing (to paraphrase what he told a teammate, "You have to push through the other riders, crash them, even if you crash also. If you crash then next time the guy will let you through!", after his teammate got boxed in on the last lap of a crit), and a massive, massive dose of intimidation.

I butted heads with him a number of times, usually when working for much better teammates (because if we went head to head he beat me every single time). In one race alone (Poughkeepsie race in the park, a circuit race, I think held just one or two years in that format) he repeatedly slapped/hit my helmet a number of times, brake checked me at just under 50 mph (he attacked on a descent where we hit 48-49 mph, I followed, he slammed the brakes on), skipped his rear wheel left and right to hit my front wheel, screamed obscenities in my ear from a few inches away while grabbing me, plus the regular stuff like elbowing or pushing me or just riding next to me while glaring at me, for a few laps, maybe 15-20 minutes, easing up only around the start finish area. The others in the field actually gave us room. Then in the sprint, ironically, the angry guy was marking me so hard that when I fell (a different guy totally not connected to either of us swung across the road as I was passing him) he tumbled over me. I was laughing when I got up. The break stayed away, my teammate got his upgrade points, and I was happy.

I have to admit I'm afraid of him in a physical/personal way (meaning he'd beat the crap out of me) so his intimidation tactics work. Still afraid of him, to this day.

On the other hand nowadays he wouldn't be able to get away with such stuff because of the prevalence of bike/helmet cams (including mine). I haven't seen him say boo for years now.

[GregL]

Sounds like roid rage

A bully in the masters? He should tried that in the pro1/2, wouldn't have ended well for him back then. Guys lik Graeme miller used punching bags not power meters to train
Now there's a blast from the past. The first time I was on the officials' stand at our local crit, Graeme Miller was in the P/1/2 field. He blatantly hooked another rider toward a curb to win a prime (fortunately, no crash). I was shocked, but the more experienced officials just laughed and awarded the prime to the other rider. Miller would have knocked the cat 3 masters bully into the weeds...

- Greg

[Joxster]

You pay to enter a race, so you want the chance to recoup your entry fee. If there was no prize money then the rider numbers would drop and with no riders there will be no races. I would ride races as training and if I cleared a £1000 thats a bonus. I would cherrypick races, because I would want a selection of different work outs for training.

[MattTuck]

You pay to enter a race, so you want the chance to recoup your entry fee. If there was no prize money then the rider numbers would drop and with no riders there will be no races. I would ride races as training and if I cleared a £1000 thats a bonus. I would cherrypick races, because I would want a selection of different work outs for training.

Do you not see the entry fee as paying to support the race? staff, police, road closures, organizer's time, etc. all cost money. I'm not sure why there should be an expectation that you should be able to earn your entry fee back.

Is it not enough to race for the sporting challenge of it? Do you go to the golf course with the expectation that you'll be able to recoup your greens fees if you play a really good round?

[peanutgallery]

He usually rode for a team full hockey thugs:)

A little gruff but generally a good guy...until the race started. At that point I would have recommended not getting between him and a nickel epoxied to the curb, he'd want it more than you. Pretty sure he lived in a van with a couple other riders

He wasn't the only journeyman back then. Today's generation of domestic "pros" would wither under the transient lifestyle of that generation. In those days they pulled out a velonews and followed the prize lists like a road map to all the little bergs in the USA that put on a crit with an advertised prize list. Sky miles and baggage fees were but a dream

Rumor had it that he'd cash his check at a liquor store and hit the Hardee's drive thru on the way out of town to their next stop


Now there's a blast from the past. The first time I was on the officials' stand at our local crit, Graeme Miller was in the P/1/2 field. He blatantly hooked another rider toward a curb to win a prime (fortunately, no crash). I was shocked, but the more experienced officials just laughed and awarded the prime to the other rider. Miller would have knocked the cat 3 masters bully into the weeds...

- Greg

[Tandem Rider]

Do you not see the entry fee as paying to support the race? staff, police, road closures, organizer's time, etc. all cost money. I'm not sure why there should be an expectation that you should be able to earn your entry fee back.

Is it not enough to race for the sporting challenge of it? Do you go to the golf course with the expectation that you'll be able to recoup your greens fees if you play a really good round?

Not if it's your job and race winnings are part of your revenue stream.

[Dead Man]

Do you not see the entry fee as paying to support the race? staff, police, road closures, organizer's time, etc. all cost money. I'm not sure why there should be an expectation that you should be able to earn your entry fee back.

Is it not enough to race for the sporting challenge of it? Do you go to the golf course with the expectation that you'll be able to recoup your greens fees if you play a really good round?

when you sit down at the blackjack table, are you just there to lose?

[MattTuck]

Not if it's your job and race winnings are part of your revenue stream.

Right, but isn't that circular logic? This thread is based on an article that specifically identifies the challenges that small races face when prize money attracts people who are racing for financial gain.

If those people want to earn money, let them compete in professional events. The idea that they compete in amateur events which have prize purses is kind of the problem, no?

At the amateur level, a rider has to ask "Why should my race fees be used to attract and reward out of town talent?"

To me, it just seems like the opposite of home grown racing.

[MattTuck]

when you sit down at the blackjack table, are you just there to lose?

That is a deeply, deeply philosophical question :)

[peanutgallery]

If the sheckles garnered from a crit in some little town is a difference maker for your personal finance stuff...you probably need to reevaluate what you have going on

Races are exponentially more expensive to promote than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Municipalities nick you for every expense now and nothing is getting cheaper. The events are tough to pull off even with sponsorship, prize list is a stressor and probably unnecessary for the majority of categories. They're gonna race no matter what

[Joxster]

Do you not see the entry fee as paying to support the race? staff, police, road closures, organizer's time, etc. all cost money. I'm not sure why there should be an expectation that you should be able to earn your entry fee back.

Is it not enough to race for the sporting challenge of it? Do you go to the golf course with the expectation that you'll be able to recoup your greens fees if you play a really good round?

I was a Pro and was based in France, but when I came back the the UK where the Pro scene was poor. We rode with the cat 1 & 2s, the flip side was the local riders got to race against a pro. If I want to pay for the pleasure of riding my bike then I would follow the sheep and enter a sportive.

[54ny77]

man ain't that the truth.

i know a few guys who spend solid 5 figures on the sport each year by buying whatever tickles the fancy, traveling to masters races in style, as well as some who don't have a pot to piss in but do whatever they can to ride that $10k bike and keep the dream alive. for the latter, heaven forbid a crash takes its toll on bike and body....:(

If the sheckles garnered from a crit in some little town is a difference maker for your personal finance stuff...you probably need to reevaluate what you have going on

[carpediemracing]

Sounds like roid rage

A bully in the masters? He should tried that in the pro1/2, wouldn't have ended well for him back then. Guys lik Graeme miller used punching bags not power meters to train

Can't answer on the first bit, as I don't know.

The guy in question held his own (meaning he could finish top 3) in local P123 races, and did, regularly, for a while (against riders that got popped for doping, no less). I worked for a number of Cat 1-2 teammates in such races, and as a weaker rider, I basically covered moves or swept wheels in sprints (meaning I sat on our sprinter's wheel to keep other sprinters from sitting on it). I do know how to sweep a wheel, but my philosophy has always been to ride without initiating contact with other riders. I can receive contact, pretty hard, but it's difficult to sweep a wheel when the rider trying to take it is willing to initiate substantial contact, over and over. It's possible though, but he was not very happy about it. In one race where my team ended up doing a big part of setting up the sprint, where I successfully kept him away from our sprinter, he won anyway. That was the dirtiest riding I'd ever done intentionally, knowing who was fighting for the wheel. No initiated contact, but no giving in either. I'm proud that I can do such riding, not proud that I did it. If I were to do it again I don't think I could do things much differently. For me, personally, I'd rather just retake a wheel because taking a wheel is always, always, always easier than defending one in a situation where others want the wheel.

[berserk87]

The Kids are Alright

Don't expect me to adopt you anytime soon, though. You can visit, but I can't afford to feed anyone else. Or pay for another person's cycling habits.

[peanutgallery]

In my heyday I was maybe 130 pounds at 5-10, wasn't pushing anyone around. Goal was to be fit enough to not to get involved in that stuff. Did have the fortune of having a giant of a teammate for many years that intimidated enough that I rarely was pushed around. Also found that if I kept a smooth wheel, took my pulls like a man and was respectful of others - people in the pro 1/2 gave the same in return. Those that got aggressive and pushy usually ended up on the ground.

Can't answer on the first bit, as I don't know.

The guy in question held his own (meaning he could finish top 3) in local P123 races, and did, regularly, for a while (against riders that got popped for doping, no less). I worked for a number of Cat 1-2 teammates in such races, and as a weaker rider, I basically covered moves or swept wheels in sprints (meaning I sat on our sprinter's wheel to keep other sprinters from sitting on it). I do know how to sweep a wheel, but my philosophy has always been to ride without initiating contact with other riders. I can receive contact, pretty hard, but it's difficult to sweep a wheel when the rider trying to take it is willing to initiate substantial contact, over and over. It's possible though, but he was not very happy about it. In one race where my team ended up doing a big part of setting up the sprint, where I successfully kept him away from our sprinter, he won anyway. That was the dirtiest riding I'd ever done intentionally, knowing who was fighting for the wheel. No initiated contact, but no giving in either. I'm proud that I can do such riding, not proud that I did it. If I were to do it again I don't think I could do things much differently. For me, personally, I'd rather just retake a wheel because taking a wheel is always, always, always easier than defending one in a situation where others want the wheel.

[bigbill]

In my heyday I was maybe 130 pounds at 5-10, wasn't pushing anyone around. Goal was to be fit enough to not to get involved in that stuff. Did have the fortune of having a giant of a teammate for many years that intimidated enough that I rarely was pushed around. Also found that if I kept a smooth wheel, took my pulls like a man and was respectful of others - people in the pro 1/2 gave the same in return. Those that got aggressive and pushy usually ended up on the ground.

I was the goon in the pack. In my prime, I was 190# at 6'2" and would go to the front of the pack in the closing miles to protect teammates and set a blistering pace, as long as my teammates were within a few riders of me. If they weren't, I'd cause a little mayhem by varying the pace causing the pack to compact and expand which allowed them to work their way to the front.

Every team, even amateurs, needs an enforcer but more importantly, a plan to get a rider to the front at the end.

[shovelhd]

We never had one of those. We would just use two riders to constantly attack and counter attack, and one or two more to cover. If a break got up the road without one of us in it, we would bring it back. Our sprinter preferred to ride near the front all the time so we didn't have to bring him anywhere. We would line the front out on the last lap and lead him out for the win.

[djg21]

Same issue in my little corner of the world. There's a Cat. 2 who I am acquainted with that regularly cherry picks local citizen races with cash payouts. I've seen him do it many times. I wish all amateur sports had no cash prizes to discourage this type of behavior...

- Greg

This was a pet peeve of mine. There's no reason to have cash or valuable prizes for racing below the senior cat 1 (perhaps 2) level. If you have the ability and want to race for money, upgrade. For the other fields, reduce the entry fees and make racing more affordable in order to encourage more people to race more often. Same for masters. No cash prizes. If you want money, upgrade and race with the senior 1s (and 2s).

[djg21]

Sounds like roid rage

A bully in the masters? He should tried that in the pro1/2, wouldn't have ended well for him back then. Guys lik Graeme miller used punching bags not power meters to train

Send me a pm with the name. I'm curious. I recall racing in the same cat 3 and 35 plus fields when the two of us were actively racing, and there were a handful of "pro" cat 3s who had part time jobs and relied on prize lists to sport themselves, frequently making the podiums at NE crits multiple times each day and multiple days each weekend. At least one had been a national champion in another country.

[djg21]

Now there's a blast from the past. The first time I was on the officials' stand at our local crit, Graeme Miller was in the P/1/2 field. He blatantly hooked another rider toward a curb to win a prime (fortunately, no crash). I was shocked, but the more experienced officials just laughed and awarded the prime to the other rider. Miller would have knocked the cat 3 masters bully into the weeds...

- Greg

I remember seeing Graeme make a hole to pass through when two guys were trying to block from the front of a group. He essentially wedged his handlebars between the bars of the two blocking riders and then made space by standing up and and pounding the bars of the other riders with his hands and arms while staying in the drops. Boy did I get yelled at when I emulated him in my next race. I hated it when riders tried to block from the front.