Gel280 to GL330.... another Don't Do That thread by The B

[Dead Man]

Some will remember my post about building a set of 28h Gel280s from a while back... consensus was: Don't do that.

Well I did it anyway.

It's OK to do dumb stuff, so long as you know it's dumb. And it was kinda dumb... and I just destroyed the rear yesterday, by being irritated and over-tensioning in an attempt to mitigate the rear constantly going out of true.

My build plan was: 28h Gel280 (it's what was available - they don't exactly stock these on the shelves anymore), Sapim Race spokes, 3x, 9000 hubs, tension to 9kn on drive-side, then tighten up to whatever tension required to dish on the non-drive side, which ended up being significantly less than 9kn

Well, long story short - wheels rode super nice, love 'em.. but I over-tensioned in an experimental effort to mitigate the rear constantly going out of true, and broke it. When they say 9kn max, they really mean it...

Now I'm rebuilding, trying to find a sub-400g rim locally... hoped for a Reflex/Open Pro T, but none in 28h (me hub)... but one shop does have some GL330s... the slightly beefier version of the same rim I just destroyed... 28h.

So... you guessed it.... I'm gonna go that route. Also, I believe this will allow me to re-use my spokes, since I'm pretty sure the rim is almost identical - haven't done the calculation yet.

That is, unless I shouldn't rebuild the same way:

Thoughts on the rebuild? Should I maybe do 2x non-drive, to increase tension over there?? Anything else you'd do (aside from don't do it at all)? Maybe go to a softer spoke? Or stiffer? I always felt like the truing problem was due to how soft the build was, compressive deformation untensioning the spokes as they went around, allowing the nipples to rotate. Just my amateur theory, though. This is also why I picked the Race spokes... being butted but still fairly beefy, I hoped it would be the compromise between too soft or too hard - eyelets crack in both directions, no?

Thanks

-B

[AngryScientist]

1) the older i get the more i value my time over tinkering with stuff i just want to work. if i have a problem wheelset that gives me issues out on the road when i should be enjoying a ride - forget about it!

2) ignoring (1) above - how about loctite on the nipples if you cant achieve the nds tension you think you need. the threadlocker may keep the nips from turning and keep you truer, longer?

[Dead Man]

Word... it's a thought. I originally built this set without anything, but ended up re-building with spoke prep, and that seemed to greatly improve things - the front pretty much chilled out, but didn't help the rear much.

Some blue loctite instead, maybe? Am I gonna round off nipples when I need to true?

As to 1 - indeed, with many things. I'm actually having some fun with this for now, though. I have found myself irritated at times, but it's overall been fun enough to keep me at it. And the wheels do ride sweeeet. Even raced 'em weekend before last.

[El Chaba]

Cut your losses. Don't do it.

[CPP]

What shop has 330s???

[Mark McM]

That is, unless I shouldn't rebuild the same way:

Thoughts on the rebuild?

Well, the GL330 will be a little more durable, but not by a lot. These lightweight rims of yesteryear weren't made for the tension differentials on modern 8/9/10/11spd hubs (they barely stood up to 5/6/7spd hubs).

Should I maybe do 2x non-drive, to increase tension over there??

A 2X pattern will actually decrease tension slightly on the NDS. But not by a lot - differences between spoke lacing patterns is largely academic, and doesn't make nearly as much difference as many people assume.


Anything else you'd do (aside from don't do it at all)? Maybe go to a softer spoke? Or stiffer? I always felt like the truing problem was due to how soft the build was, compressive deformation untensioning the spokes as they went around, allowing the nipples to rotate. Just my amateur theory, though. This is also why I picked the Race spokes... being butted but still fairly beefy, I hoped it would be the compromise between too soft or too hard - eyelets crack in both directions, no?

While thicker (stiffer) spokes will make a wheel more rigid, it actually increases the chances of nipples unscrewing or the rim cracking. The reason is that thinner spokes have more stretch, so they have to unstretch further before they complete slacken (allowing the nipples to unscrew), and they reduce the load spikes at the rim when the unstretch/restretch under loading as the wheel rotates. The main downside of thinner spokes is that they make the wheel less rigid.

One way to mitigate high tension differentials is to use differential spoking - thinner spokes on the NDS.

You don't mention how much you weigh, but unless you are a flyweight, I wouldn't expect much durability out of this wheel.

[Rusty Luggs]

....One way to mitigate high tension differentials is to use differential spoking - thinner spokes on the NDS.


I build all my rear wheels that way - lighter gauge spokes on non-drive side.

[zap]

Well, the GL330 will be a little more durable, but not by a lot.

I raced crits on a set of 330's and they were fine

But 32 spokes............

[FlashUNC]

Go get Hed C2s and be done with it.

Gel 280s or 330s are just asking for problems.

[Dead Man]

Go get Hed C2s and be done with it.

Gel 280s or 330s are just asking for problems.

Too heavy/wrong aesthetic

[wallymann]

32-hole on disc hubs (front and rear).

very cool build but only last like a handful of rides before they could no longer withstand the re-tensioning required to maintain true.

as suggested by others, went with H+ archetypes and they're rock solid.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Dead Man;1946751]Some will remember my post about building a set of 28h Gel280s from a while back... consensus was: Don't do that.

Well I did it anyway.

It's OK to do dumb stuff, so long as you know it's dumb. And it was kinda dumb... and I just destroyed the rear yesterday, by being irritated and over-tensioning in an attempt to mitigate the rear constantly going out of true.

My build plan was: 28h Gel280 (it's what was available - they don't exactly stock these on the shelves anymore), Sapim Race spokes, 3x, 9000 hubs, tension to 9kn on drive-side, then tighten up to whatever tension required to dish on the non-drive side, which ended up being significantly less than 9kn

Well, long story short - wheels rode super nice, love 'em.. but I over-tensioned in an experimental effort to mitigate the rear constantly going out of true, and broke it. When they say 9kn max, they really mean it...

Now I'm rebuilding, trying to find a sub-400g rim locally... hoped for a Reflex/Open Pro T, but none in 28h (me hub)... but one shop does have some GL330s... the slightly beefier version of the same rim I just destroyed... 28h.

So... you guessed it.... I'm gonna go that route. Also, I believe this will allow me to re-use my spokes, since I'm pretty sure the rim is almost identical - haven't done the calculation yet.

That is, unless I shouldn't rebuild the same way:

Thoughts on the rebuild? Should I maybe do 2x non-drive, to increase tension over there?? Anything else you'd do (aside from don't do it at all)? Maybe go to a softer spoke? Or stiffer? I always felt like the truing problem was due to how soft the build was, compressive deformation untensioning the spokes as they went around, allowing the nipples to rotate. Just my amateur theory, though. This is also why I picked the Race spokes... being butted but still fairly beefy, I hoped it would be the compromise between too soft or too hard - eyelets crack in both directions, no?

Thanks

-B[/QUOT

2 cross non drive side won't raise tension on that side.

Build to tension, tie and solder, lace 3 cross both sides, outside pulling. Hope for the best. Think light thoughts.

[batman1425]

Or some Alpha 340's if you are married to a light weight rim.

[Curve_in]

I raced crits on a set of 330's and they were fine

But 32 spokes............

Same here and I was 180 pounds. I always used butted 15-17 wheelsmith spokes with alloy nipples.

[bikinchris]

I say to go with a 32 spoke rear on either a 330 or better yet a Mavic Open.

[Gummee]

Back in the day, the pros rode an 'aero*' rim in the back and a box-section in the front.

That's your best bet (and historically accurate) for long-lasting wheels

M

*Velocity Aerohead, Wolber Profil 19, et al

[Hindmost]

Pre-Eroica I was looking at my old race wheel-sets recently. I was somewhat surprised to be reminded that my road race wheels were 36 spoke. My "time trial" wheels were 32 spoke (GL330's); this was pretty daring. I was a big guy back in the day, 175 lbs.

I remember re-truing stuff fairly often.

[ergott]

Too heavy/wrong aesthetic

They're going to look great on the side of the road when your wheels don't work.

You came looking for people to confirm that your plan is sound. Not gonna happen. Sounds like you will do it anyway.

I know where you can get Mavic Reflex CD Ceramic rims in 28.

Have fun with the journey.
:beer:

[Dead Man]

You came looking for people to confirm that your plan is sound. Not gonna happen. Sounds like you will do it anyway.

No... no I did not. I stated pretty clearly my opinion that few will think it's a good idea (I already did the is this a good idea? thread - consensus was it wasn't) - I came here looking for any tips to do it even marginally better than I did before.... nothing more than that.

And thanks for those suggestions I've gotten, gents.. I feel like this one will perform at least a little better. Gonna race 'em this Sat and Sun, so we'll find out!

:banana:

[saab2000]

The ENVE carbon tubulars 2.2s supposedly weigh in at 281 grams. Coincidence?

I would love to try a set of these!

[ultraman6970]

Back in the day we used rims that light and with low count only for TT stuff, not for everyday riding. If you want super light wheels with low count you have to go with modern high profile rims or go straight to carbon or just go with a factory made wheels.

I would just go and put a 32x rim and live with that if you want everyday reliable wheels.

[ergott]

(aside from don't do it at all)

-B


This pretty much tells me you are going to build these wheels even if every wheel builder here tells you the wheels will be crap.

:crap:

[steelbikerider]

Old lightweight rims required high flange hubs to make them stiffer and tying and soldering the spokes for the same reason.

At least that's what everyone said "back in the day." It also seems like I was replacing rims on a pretty regular basis.

[steelbikerider]

double post

[shovelhd]

I always built those rims 3x.

[FlashUNC]

Good news is you're going to get really good at truing wheels.

[R3awak3n]

This pretty much tells me you are going to build these wheels even if every wheel builder here tells you the wheels will be crap.

:crap:

and they will be even crappier since they are going to be built by a non wheel builder (I build my own wheels and have built some bad ones but if a few wheel builders tell me to look elsewhere I probably would).


Also the spokes coming undone, maybe the tension was uneven and the solution was to rebuild instead of more tension (trust me I have done this and also cracked a rim, lesson learned though, rebuilt the same wheelset and its been great)

[Dead Man]

Good news is you're going to get really good at truing wheels.

Ive had to add a spoke wrench to my pouch tool kit...

[oldpotatoe]

No... no I did not. I stated pretty clearly my opinion that few will think it's a good idea (I already did the is this a good idea? thread - consensus was it wasn't) - I came here looking for any tips to do it even marginally better than I did before.... nothing more than that.

And thanks for those suggestions I've gotten, gents.. I feel like this one will perform at least a little better. Gonna race 'em this Sat and Sun, so we'll find out!

:banana:

Why not, it's a bike wheel...it isn't going to fail, it may strand you but it's not like you are heading for reinforcements because your compound is being overrun by zombies. I raced on GL330/GEL280(race with small 'r'), on some of the first wheels I ever built. Yes they were 36h but if ya can build a GL/GEL/Fiamme-red/yellow, etc..you can build anything. Props if it stays kinda true for kinda long..

[Joachim]

Gonna race 'em this Sat and Sun, so we'll find out!

:banana:


I just want to make sure others didn't miss this joke :). Or are you talking about entering an official race and then race with somewhat dubious wheels?

[El Chaba]

If you go ahead and look for a GP4, it just might hold together...You could move the Gl330 to the front wheel and have a pretty decent set of light tubulars...and the appearance would match and look quite good...

[bikinchris]

Even "in the day" when those were rims people raced with, they never rode them in something other than a race. The day before the race, they would mount the wheels and check the brakes and shifting adjustments. After the race, the training wheels go back on. Those superlight race wheels would get rebuilt often, too.

[Joachim]

If you go ahead and look for a GP4, it just might hold together...You could move the Gl330 to the front wheel and have a pretty decent set of light tubulars...and the appearance would match and look quite good...

I have a similar set up, well in progress. GP4 rear and GL330 front, but they are 32h. Going to pair it with Tune hubs and Wheelsmith db14 spokes and brass nips. Real nice alloy tubular set for 1350g-ish that will last. Not so aerodynamic but nice enough for a ride in the mountains when its raining.

[Mark McM]

Even "in the day" when those were rims people raced with, they never rode them in something other than a race. The day before the race, they would mount the wheels and check the brakes and shifting adjustments. After the race, the training wheels go back on. Those superlight race wheels would get rebuilt often, too.

And also "in the day" when GEL280 and GL330 rims were common, most wheels were 36 spokes, 32 spoke wheels were just for race day, and 28 spoke wheels were for "special event" use only (like smooth TTs).

GEL280 rims are light, but they are also made from a soft alloy and need lots of spokes to support them properly.

[Mark McM]

Old lightweight rims required high flange hubs to make them stiffer and tying and soldering the spokes for the same reason.

At least that's what everyone said "back in the day." It also seems like I was replacing rims on a pretty regular basis.

Yes, that's what people use to say "back in the day", but today we know better. Which is why the vast majority of hubs today are low flange (except when hub internals require a larger diameter) and spokes are no longer tied and soldered.

[Mr_Gimby]

H+Son makes the TB14 in a grey ano and 28h drilling. Might have to get it direct from them, but its gonna be significantly stronger while maintaining your aesthetics. Plus its double eyeletted!

[Dead Man]

H+Son makes the TB14 in a grey ano and 28h drilling. Might have to get it direct from them, but its gonna be significantly stronger while maintaining your aesthetics. Plus its double eyeletted!

No tubular...

[Dead Man]

Build to tension, tie and solder, lace 3 cross both sides, outside pulling. Hope for the best. Think light thoughts.

I'm gonna do this... Since the spokes are identical length between these rims, I'm gonna go ahead and re-use these Race spokes on both sides.

I'd always been under the impression stainless isn't solderable, but I just googled it and looks like it is.. but you gotta go a little hotter and use liquid flux.. I assume this is all OK for the spokes/wheel, still?

[dsillito]

I'm gonna do this... Since the spokes are identical length between these rims, I'm gonna go ahead and re-use these Race spokes on both sides.

I'd always been under the impression stainless isn't solderable, but I just googled it and looks like it is.. but you gotta go a little hotter and use liquid flux.. I assume this is all OK for the spokes/wheel, still?

From what I understand, and this is from the reading I've done, and not personal experience, the soldering is merely to keep the wire from unwrapping, and to make it look clean. It is the wraps of wire that are doing the work, and it really doesn't matter if any solder "sticks" to the spokes at all. Can anyone second that?

I found it very funny to read the different opinions on tying and soldering in the different wheel building books. Just going from memory, I believe it was Schraner who opined that tying and soldering was crucial, and required now more than ever (paraphrasing), and Brandt who said it was absolutely useless and pointless.

I'm going to do a 32hole Gel280 build soon. Mine weigh slightly more than 300g each, by the way (totally clean of glue residue, of course). What do the 330s generally weigh, in reality, rather than nominally?

[Dead Man]

I will weigh 'em today before I build 'em up. If I remember correctly, my 280s weighed in right around 300 also.. so the 330s are probably more like 350+

[Waldo]

Don't reuse spokes.

[Dead Man]

Don't reuse spokes.

Even with only 607 miles on 'em?

[Mark McM]

I found it very funny to read the different opinions on tying and soldering in the different wheel building books. Just going from memory, I believe it was Schraner who opined that tying and soldering was crucial, and required now more than ever (paraphrasing), and Brandt who said it was absolutely useless and pointless.

The problem with most of the hypotheses about how tying and soldering works is that they are putting the cart before horse. First, you have to establish that tying and soldering actually has an affect. Once that is established, you can try to figure out how it works.

The difference between Schraner (and others) and Brandt is that Brandt first tried to establish if there was actually an affect. He did experiments and couldn't find one, so there was no point in figuring out how it produced a non-existent affect.

So far, tying and soldering has never been objectively demonstrated to make wheels stiffer, stronger, or more durable. Many people have had 'hunches' that it did, but no one has offered objective proof.

[Mark McM]

Don't reuse spokes.

Why not?

[El Chaba]

The problem with most of the hypotheses about how tying and soldering works is that they are putting the cart before horse. First, you have to establish that tying and soldering actually has an affect. Once that is established, you can try to figure out how it works.

The difference between Schraner (and others) and Brandt is that Brandt first tried to establish if there was actually an affect. He did experiments and couldn't find one, so there was no point in figuring out how it produced a non-existent affect.

So far, tying and soldering has never been objectively demonstrated to make wheels stiffer, stronger, or more durable. Many people have had 'hunches' that it did, but no one has offered objective proof.

Yeah, but replacing a rim on a tied and soldered wheel is a cinch!

[thwart]

Ambrosio Crono F20's, Mavic Reflex (hard anodized)... a couple other options that are around 400 gms (or under, my Reflexes were ~ 380 gms) and look period correct.

[PeregrineA1]

If you are looking for a rim I have the following, any multiple of which could be yours for the shipping:

GL330 pink/yellow label-pair
GL330 red label-single
Araya ?-single
Mavic GP4-single
Mavic MA40-single

[ik2280]

Ambrosio Crono F20's, Mavic Reflex (hard anodized)... a couple other options that are around 400 gms (or under, my Reflexes were ~ 380 gms) and look period correct.

Reflexes seem like the move here. Retro aesthetic, modern(ish) rim. But some say that even 380 grams is too light for a tubular rim. I used some Reflexes as cross wheels this past season, they held up fine and stayed in true.

[Grant McLean]

And also "in the day" when GEL280 and GL330 rims were common, most wheels were 36 spokes, 32 spoke wheels were just for race day, and 28 spoke wheels were for "special event" use only (like smooth TTs).

GEL280 rims are light, but they are also made from a soft alloy and need lots of spokes to support them properly.

Back in the day, the rear wheel didn't need to be dished for 11 speed,
that's what kills these rims, the spoke tension imbalance between the right
and left sides makes it a really bad idea.

I wouldn't use a sub 400 gram rim with an 11 speed hub unless it was asymmetrical
and you can make the left side have a reasonable amount of tension.

-g

[oldpotatoe]

The problem with most of the hypotheses about how tying and soldering works is that they are putting the cart before horse. First, you have to establish that tying and soldering actually has an affect. Once that is established, you can try to figure out how it works.

The difference between Schraner (and others) and Brandt is that Brandt first tried to establish if there was actually an affect. He did experiments and couldn't find one, so there was no point in figuring out how it produced a non-existent affect.

So far, tying and soldering has never been objectively demonstrated to make wheels stiffer, stronger, or more durable. Many people have had 'hunches' that it did, but no one has offered objective proof.

Stiffer, nope, stronger, maybe, more durable, certainly. All rims get bent. When ya smack them, you dent them, and reduce tension at that spot. On a tied and soldered wheel, the spoke movement at the flange is reduced to near zero at that place where the tension gets lowered. Grab a T&S wheel, push on crossed spokes and see how much movement there is at the flange..now compare with non T&S wheel..you all have a T&S wheel to check, right? Bend/wack/deform rim..T&S-less broken spokes on particularly non drive side.

What I find 'funny' is those that say there isn't any info, but have never T&S a wheel to actually test. Try it..and if you don't know how....I can show ya.

I would say do it on the GL330 cuz tension is low and the rim is flexy..reduce the possibility of a busted spoke.

[Mark McM]

Stiffer, nope, stronger, maybe, more durable, certainly. All rims get bent. When ya smack them, you dent them, and reduce tension at that spot. On a tied and soldered wheel, the spoke movement at the flange is reduced to near zero at that place where the tension gets lowered. Grab a T&S wheel, push on crossed spokes and see how much movement there is at the flange..now compare with non T&S wheel..you all have a T&S wheel to check, right? Bend/wack/deform rim..T&S-less broken spokes on particularly non drive side.

Explain how anything pushes on the spokes anywhere in their middles when the wheels are in use. Forces are only applied to spokes at their ends, and then they are only longitudinal forces, not lateral forces.

As you say, a tied and soldered wheel isn't stiffer. A wheel is made up of elastic members and the deflection in each member is proportional to the load on the member. If there is no change in deflection of the structure (as you admit), then there is no change in loading within the structure. Funky tests that have no relevance to real wheel loads (like pressing on the spokes at the crossing) do nothing to show the effectiveness of tying and soldering.

You'll probably claim that since I haven't tied and soldered a wheel, I can't really know if it works or not. But given my understanding of wheel structural mechanics, and a lack of objective controlled experiments on the subject, I find no reason to think it helps, and therefore no reason to try it. What if some people claimed that throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder when building a wheel made for more reliable wheels? If you found no reason to believe that it would help, you probably wouldn't try it. Likewise, there isn't much credible evidence to show that tying and soldering helps, either.[/QUOTE]

[oldpotatoe]

Explain how anything pushes on the spokes anywhere in their middles when the wheels are in use. Forces are only applied to spokes at their ends, and then they are only longitudinal forces, not lateral forces.

As you say, a tied and soldered wheel isn't stiffer. A wheel is made up of elastic members and the deflection in each member is proportional to the load on the member. If there is no change in deflection of the structure (as you admit), then there is no change in loading within the structure. Funky tests that have no relevance to real wheel loads (like pressing on the spokes at the crossing) do nothing to show the effectiveness of tying and soldering.

You'll probably claim that since I haven't tied and soldered a wheel, I can't really know if it works or not. But given my understanding of wheel structural mechanics, and a lack of objective controlled experiments on the subject, I find no reason to think it helps, and therefore no reason to try it. What if some people claimed that throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder when building a wheel made for more reliable wheels? If you found no reason to believe that it would help, you probably wouldn't try it. Likewise, there isn't much credible evidence to show that tying and soldering helps, either.[/QUOTE]

fine..
But ya know, I choose to believe Gerd.. but choice is a wonderful thing and it's my time..

"Gerd Schraner's "The Art of Wheelbuilding", he states that there is a benefit of tying spokes on very light wheels. In fact he describes wheels he built for Ivan Gotti for the Giro in 1997 that had tied spokes. Gerd Schraner provides detail on the "Bruhlmann Method of Tying and Soldering" in his above referenced book. I've met a number of "experienced" (note I didn't say old) wheelbuilders who prescribe to tying and soldering spokes on some wheels built for harsh conditions."

If ya think it's foolish, don't do it. :)

I don't grease square taper BB spindles ether...:eek:

[dsillito]

The difference between Schraner (and others) and Brandt is that Brandt first tried to establish if there was actually an affect. He did experiments and couldn't find one, so there was no point in figuring out how it produced a non-existent affect.

So far, tying and soldering has never been objectively demonstrated to make wheels stiffer, stronger, or more durable. Many people have had 'hunches' that it did, but no one has offered objective proof.

Agreed. I think the experimental approach should be embraced and expanded. It would be nice to see more mechanical engineering students take on these kinds of questions as PhD thesis projects, and apply some scientific rigour to them.

Anecdotally, two competent wheel builders can say "I always tie and solder, and have always produced exceptional wheels", or "I've never tied and soldered, and have always produced exceptional wheels". Both may indeed be building durable hoops, but there are so many other factors that are not being controlled for.

In general, I find the more hotly something is debated, the less effect it is likely to have. If the effect was large, it would be self-evident, and there would be no reason for debate. If all non-tied wheels failed within a year, and all tied wheels never went out of true, there would be no reason to debate endlessly...

That is precisely why bike rims are no longer made of aged cheddar.

That is an interesting comment about rim replacement. I suppose you could temporarily wrap the spoke crosses with some wire of any kind, sans solder, before doing a rim replacement. I'll keep that in mind.

Also, somewhat pertaining to the above post, if you want to do something, and it has been shown not to be dangerous, then do it. I will probably try tying and soldering one day, just to try my hand at it, and because it looks cool, and "old school", regardless if it makes any difference to the wheel mechanics whatsoever. Sometimes the only reason required to do something, is to keep your hands and mind busy. It will be a few less hours spend drinking and womanizing, at any rate :D

[Mr_Gimby]

Agreed. I think the experimental approach should be embraced and expanded. It would be nice to see more mechanical engineering students take on these kinds of questions as PhD thesis projects, and apply some scientific rigour to them.

Anecdotally, two competent wheel builders can say "I always tie and solder, and have always produced exceptional wheels", or "I've never tied and soldered, and have always produced exceptional wheels". Both may indeed be building durable hoops, but there are so many other factors that are not being controlled for.

In general, I find the more hotly something is debated, the less effect it is likely to have. If the effect was large, it would be self-evident, and there would be no reason for debate. If all non-tied wheels failed within a year, and all tied wheels never went out of true, there would be no reason to debate endlessly...

That is precisely why bike rims are no longer made of aged cheddar.

That is an interesting comment about rim replacement. I suppose you could temporarily wrap the spoke crosses with some wire of any kind, sans solder, before doing a rim replacement. I'll keep that in mind.

Also, somewhat pertaining to the above post, if you want to do something, and it has been shown not to be dangerous, then do it. I will probably try tying and soldering one day, just to try my hand at it, and because it looks cool, and "old school", regardless if it makes any difference to the wheel mechanics whatsoever. Sometimes the only reason required to do something, is to keep your hands and mind busy. It will be a few less hours spend drinking and womanizing, at any rate :D

Just tape the new rim to the old one, detense rim A, and transfer spokes one-by-one to rim B. Nothing to unlace, no wires needed!

[Dead Man]

Sometimes the only reason required to do something, is to keep your hands and mind busy. It will be a few less hours spend drinking and womanizing, at any rate :D

thus.... this whole thread.

[Mark McM]

In general, I find the more hotly something is debated, the less effect it is likely to have. If the effect was large, it would be self-evident, and there would be no reason for debate. If all non-tied wheels failed within a year, and all tied wheels never went out of true, there would be no reason to debate endlessly...

Exactly so. Other wheel building aspects that keep getting debated are numbers of spoke crossings, and inside pulling vs. outside pulling, but in reality they make little difference at all, and other factors are far more important.

[dsillito]

thus.... this whole thread.

If only I wasn't posting with a bottle of JD in one hand and a lady of dubious repute in the other :eek:

[dsillito]

Just tape the new rim to the old one, detense rim A, and transfer spokes one-by-one to rim B. Nothing to unlace, no wires needed!

Definitely a good suggestion, and admittedly more practical, but I kind of want to see what a "phantom rim wheel" looks like. I could pretend it is one of those wheels we'll have someday when Mr. Scott finally provides us with that "transparent aluminum" we've been waiting for.

[Mr_Gimby]

Definitely a good suggestion, and admittedly more practical, but I kind of want to see what a "phantom rim wheel" looks like. I could pretend it is one of those wheels we'll have someday when Mr. Scott finally provides us with that "transparent aluminum" we've been waiting for.

Whatever you do, don't spin it without a rim on it. I too had that curiosity, and I was rewarded by being stabbed in the forearm with a spoke. Bout an inch in. Yes, it hurt.

[dsillito]

Whatever you do, don't spin it without a rim on it. I too had that curiosity, and I was rewarded by being stabbed in the forearm with a spoke. Bout an inch in. Yes, it hurt.

They say the best experience is second hand, if you'll buy it, and I'll definitely not repeat that experiment. I guess I won't try going for a ride on it either... :)

[Dead Man]

Rim transfered... Spokes cleaned/re-prepped, tensioned, dished, rounded, trued, then tied & soldered- first time ever, not posting a pic- tire glued, retrued.. Race is tomorrow AM

Keep me in your payers

[fogrider]

wow, I've got a couple wheelsets with 330 and 32 spokes...one set with the spokes tied and soldered...I've even transferred a rim. but I've know these are not the most durable wheels, and I would go 28 spokes!

funny how to me, a bike really doesn't look right without deep carbon rims now!

[ultraman6970]

The taller the profiles of the tubes the weirder the bike will get with low profile rims.

[dsillito]

The taller the profiles of the tubes the weirder the bike will get with low profile rims.

It is a bit jarring to see an old skinny-tube frame with deep rims, or super fat frame "tubes" (are they still considered "tubes" if they are in a monocoque carbon construction?) with low profile box sections. Whatever works though. Thankfully, you never really see your own bike while riding it. :bike:

[oldpotatoe]

Rim transfered... Spokes cleaned/re-prepped, tensioned, dished, rounded, trued, then tied & soldered- first time ever, not posting a pic- tire glued, retrued.. Race is tomorrow AM

Keep me in your payers

Just to get Mark spooled up;):butt::help::D

[Dazza]

Joe is wrong
it is fun to do
and fun to ride
if your believe it is working, it is working
Let the others be up set



https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1599/25854517872_9d40a31b98_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1526/25949411786_f65b20b04c_b.jpg

[teleguy57]

Peter, after I got my Nemesis back from you I hit my forehead and went "doh! Should have him T&S the wheel." I may just try that myself.

Two very pretty wheels!

Just to get Mark spooled up;):butt::help::D
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697917721&stc=1&d=1459628241

Joe is wrong
it is fun to do
and fun to ride
if your believe it is working, it is working
Let the others be up set



https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1599/25854517872_9d40a31b98_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1526/25949411786_f65b20b04c_b.jpg

[Dead Man]

Stage one done... Gravel, crappy asphalt, lots of super fast hard cornering.... Wheel stayed totally true!

More gravel tomorrow.. But i am confident

I think the slightly beefier rim and the tie-n-solder really did the trick

[oldpotatoe]

Stage one done... Gravel, crappy asphalt, lots of super fast hard cornering.... Wheel stayed totally true!

More gravel tomorrow.. But i am confident

I think the slightly beefier rim and the tie-n-solder really did the trick

T&S did it!!!:beer:;):p:D

[thwart]

Keep me in your prayers

Glad to hear you did OK.

Never good to have a user name be a completely accurate description of yourself.

[Dead Man]

Stage 2 done.. Wheel still perfect - even more/gnarlier gravel today... Washboard crap

dope. Im gonna build every lightweight alloy exactly the same