Why support your LBS?

[Clancy]

Ok, first let me say this very well may open up a can of worms. I do not intend to be controversial but the recent thread on the bike shop owner's stand against Shimano got me thinking.

Also, I fully disagree with Shimano's price structure. There is a serious issue when an end user in the states can buy parts from overseas for less then U.S. distributors pay wholesale. Most companies I'm aware of adjust their prices to take in the value of the dollar vs the Euro, tariffs, etc.

However, the idea of "Support Your LBS" seems to me rather dumb - like most slogans or catch phrases.

I've been passionately cycling since early college, 40+ years. Lived in the same town. I've been in every bike shop here many, many times. I know most of the shop guys. A close friend recently bought a LBS and is doing his best to make it into a solid bike shop.

There is only one "LBS" that I fully support, a one man shop that is run by the best and most ornery old guy you'll ever meet.

As far as the rest, including a Trek flagship store and a Specialized flagship store, forget it.

My experience is most bike techs are like bartenders. Few are trained, most are as transient as bartenders, and many are weed smoking tattooed idiots that I wouldn't let near my bike.

In 40 years I've known 2-3 that I consider good mechanics. One worked the US pro cycling circuit and he was outstanding. But even those guys never stayed in one shop for more then a year or do.

Every bike shop, except for my old cogger, has extremely high turn over. Although the ownership has remained fairly stable over the last few decades, the staff turns over with the same frequency as the bag boys at a supermarket. Most know very little about cycling, and none receive specific training.

My friend who purchased the bike shop is a very accomplished businessman who also is extremely passionate about cycling. We've had long talks about his trials and tribulations in trying to turn the shop into a successful business. One example, he was shocked to learn that not one of his employees knew how to sell bike helmets. He asked the Bell rep to put on a clinic resulting in the sales jumping considerably. Most of the staff have been floating around the bike shop scene for years, working is one shop or another, yet none know anything as basic as how to fit and sell a helmet. This is just one example.

He is striving to bring a true business model to the shop, but it's a struggle.

When I go into any shop they usually don't have what I'm looking for.
( And yes, I know the issues of carrying a large inventory, more now then ever after seeing what my friend is going through)

In the past, when I've tried to order a part, the shops typically bundle it, order the wrong part, or take weeks to get it, or drop the ball completely.

The one man bike shop? I'll support him all day long but he also treats me with respect, he's a wealth of knowledge (but does not suffer fools!), and he charges very fair prices. If he doesn't carry it or can't get in quickly, he tells me to order on line. His is the kind of bike shop where you go and just sit around and talk about whatever. He's semi retired and when he closes, I'll probably not set foot in any of the other bike shops in town.

Sometime back I asked on this forum about the sizing of Fizik road shoes as I was looking to buy a pair. A forum member asked me if I was planning to buy on line, wondering if I was not Supporting My Local Bike Shop.

So, Support Your LBS? Why? I don't get it.

[goonster]

There is only one "LBS" that I fully support, a one man shop that is run by the best and most ornery old guy you'll ever meet.


So, Support Your LBS? Why?

You have answered your own question.

The notion that the LBS-to-be-supported provides value locally in a way that the internet and remote vendors cannot should be implicit.

It is an unfortunate sign of changing times that this is no longer obvious.

[unterhausen]

I could never support a Trek or Spesh superstore, just like I go into a Performance and walk right back out again. I really am not a big fan of the stores that look like those corporate stores either. Unfortunately, Trek keeps pressuring my favorite store to go in that direction, what a waste.

I obviously could support my habit just on the internet, but I like having someone to bounce ideas off of and have them tell me if I'm screwing up. And a lot of times, they have some way of saving me money that the internet couldn't without a lot of work for me.

[Mr. Squirrel]

squirrels and bicycle shops = symbiotic. and that is not nuts!

mr. squirrel

[josephr]

an LBS here just recently announced they were closing up shop...quite a few have commented about how 'sad' it was that another good shop was closing. The store did quite well for a long time, but when one of the co-owners sold out to "Mike"...the whole thing seemed to living on borrowed time.

Quite a few of our group rides originate from around the corner so I've stopped in more than a few times.
Only once was I greeted/acknowledged/asked if I needed any help.
Price/choices were other-worldly -- they have a used FD-7900 on their 'sale' table marked at $170, the bikes they have on their floor are all the high-end Scott or Pinarello and a few leftover Jamis from when they carried them a few years ago -- still marked at MSRP. I'm not a Campy guy, but their one saving grace was the service dude who was a certified Campy wrench who was picked off by another LBS --- all the service work followed him.

I hate to see an LBS go under, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

[bikinchris]

Some reasons to support your bike shop would be:
If they help organize a local club
Support advocacy
Support bike education
Help organizeocal rides
Provide consistent top notch mechanic service
Knowledge of all things cycling is deep and strong

What other reasons can we think of?

[fuzzalow]

My experience is most bike techs are like bartenders. Few are trained, most are as transient as bartenders, and many are weed smoking tattooed idiots that I wouldn't let near my bike.

Casting the aspersion of "bike tech" in this manner is an insult to weed smokers and tattoo-ists. And the idiots don't know they've been insulted. ;)

And the use of an inflated title of "bike-tech" is an insult to technology professionals in any industry.

Sorry to say and sad but true. There aren't that many good bartenders. There are even less number of good bike mechanics. But a bad drink is just something left at the bar. A bad mechanic futzing up a good bike is something you get to take home.

[mtb_frk]

I am always amazed with lack of knowledge employees have. I guess it is just a job to some people, and only know enough to answer the most basic questions that they probably get asked often.

[bobswire]

Having just turned 71 I have outlived all my favorite LBS, it is as simple as that. Besides with all the time on my hands I love working on and riding bikes!

[thunderworks]

We all know of local bike shops that are both good and bad. Some should survive, and frankly some are mediocre and will (and should) close.

There is a more global question asked by the OP though. I think the decent, local shops should be supported in the hopes that they can effectively address the needs of "lower tech" buyers (i.e. not forum participants who are relatively bike savvy). People that hang around these forums really don't need much from their local bike business scene - but forumites are a small minority of bike riding world. Mom and pop riders. Kids. Newbees who may become serious, people on tight budgets who buy entry level hardware, etc. . . all of these people need local bike shops. The shops are needed for service. Access to basic information. Helmet fitting. Flat tire repair clinics. Chain installation. First pair of shorts.

There is a host of need in the bike riding public that we, as forum participants rarely need but the rest of the bike world needs desperately.

So my answer to the question about supporting the LBS, is that even though I don't need them much, the "global bike community" needs them a great deal and all of our interests are served when the larger community of bike riders is served effectively, appropriately, and that service increases bike participation on our congested roads.

[deechee]

Every bike shop, except for my old cogger, has extremely high turn over. Although the ownership has remained fairly stable over the last few decades, the staff turns over with the same frequency as the bag boys at a supermarket. Most know very little about cycling, and none receive specific training.


Not many kids grow up aspiring to be bike mechanics. My LBS hires kids as they're motivated, but most don't stick around more than a few summers. Its hard to invest time into help you know won't stick around. Couple to that our seasonal sport, its not a popular career path for an adult.

I support my LBS precisely because good help is hard to find.

Btw, regarding ordering parts from your LBS, talk to your shop. The big suppliers here in Canada use online systems - its easy for your shop to make an order and check the status. No reason for the order to get lost.

[Ti Designs]

I am always amazed with lack of basic knowledge employees have.

I don't really think I'm your average bike shop employee, but I'm often amazed at how little I know about what we sell. I know nothing of mountain bikes, which means when a customer asks me about a bike there's a 40% chance I'm gonna give them a blank look are refer them to some kid we hired last week.

That said, it's never about getting the most expensive equipment (well, it is if you're really pretentious, but those aren't my customers), it's about getting the right equipment and using it well. That's something you're never going to get from the internet. As amazed as you are about how little shop employees know, I'm amazed at how little the average customer knows, but how much they're willing to spend.

I realize that I'm either a dying breed or just defective from birth, but I see my job as making the best cyclists, and selling what they need to reach their goals. By comparison, most sales people just want to sell anything they can get the customer to buy. The way I see it, selling the right stuff and offering my own 35 years of experience will build good riders who are loyal to the shop - that's my sustainable model. As I sell less than most of the other salespeople, I'm pretty sure I'm still at the shop 'cause those pesky customers keep asking for me...

[Climb01742]

It's a question that's applicable to almost business. Why support_any_business that doesn't treat customers well? What's always puzzled me is, why do bike shops, far more than most small local businesses, get the customer service part so wrong?

[Ralph]

Here is the way I look at it. I don't "owe" any business anything.

If it's in my best interest to shop at a LBS, I will. Some things I prefer to try on, etc. However....I won't use them unfairly. If I try something on at their shop, it fits etc.....I'll buy it from them. If I need some mechanical help, then I will pay for that. But that's not often.

if I need something where I don't need to visit the LBS to get it, where it is easier to just order it online, have it show up at my door next day or so, I will do that.

It's their job as a retail business to make me want to shop with them. But I basically think what is happening in the retail bike business is ECON 101 at work....fair or not....fair prices and distribution networks or not.....all in the interest in making things better for the consumer. More goods needing buyers than traditional distribution channels can handle.....ease of trading across country lines, new payment systems (Paypal, etc) making international buying simpler, ......all good for us consumers. And it's not just happening in the bike business.

[dgauthier]

(. . .) the idea of "Support Your LBS" seems to me rather dumb - like most slogans (. . . ) There is only one "LBS" that I fully support (. . .) I don't get it.

Hey, that's the one the slogan's talking about! It sounds like you "get it" just fine. :D

[fuzzalow]

It's a question that's applicable to almost business. Why support_any_business that doesn't treat customers well? What's always puzzled me is, why do bike shops, far more than most small local businesses, get the customer service part so wrong?

I think it is an easy answer. To do well in this area is not different than any other area of professional life, whether it be advising/servicing a customer in an LBS or facilitating a client as a consultant or advising a client as an investment banker.

All of this takes knowledge and judgement. And perhaps more crucially is that there is always a nebulous, imaginary line that seperates and demarcates what is in the best interest of the customer/client and what is in the best interest of the LBS/Consultancy/Bank. And it takes judgement, courage and ethics, to name but a few qualities, to effectively and consistently make the right call in deciding what, where and how to proceed. This all done within the structural confines of their specific environment, of which bicycle retail has its own hellish constraints.

I dunno anything about running a LBS or small business. I don't think there are that many, especially at the employee level that can do this level of professionalism. Sure, the pay has got something to do with it. But it ultimately comes down to the talent pool too - getting good people is insanely difficult to do.

[bking]

I have one shop i'm in fairly frequently. It's a small trek based shop, carry mostly typical stuff, low end to medium on the "zoot" scale. It's owned and operated almost exclusively by a husband and wife. He's a great mechanic, and they are honest. No kids working there, no summer mechanics.
And that's really the purpose of my comment. It seldom pays enough to be a "bike tech", unless you own the shop, to make a career of it (unless it's a life long passion, I suppose). I'm late to bikes, really started just 12 years ago. I remember the first time i took my bike in for some real service. I had him do quite a bit, not really much in the way of parts, but it was front to back. I think the bill was like $78.00. I giggled and paid and walked away. My other passions have been motorcycles, ATV's, power boats--blow an 800hp motor once, P Cars etc. Bikes and bike stuff can get spendy yes, but it's cheap, too cheap frankly, to have them worked on by a guy supposedly in a career trying to earn a living.

[biker72]

I work at what some would consider a cycling superstore. We do sell a lot of bikes. We also support many local clubs not only with discounts on parts and clothing but cash donations. Lots of behind the scenes cash support.

We're very active in the local MS 150 rides where ALL the money raised goes to the MS Society plus a very generous contribution from the store.

We put a lot of money back into the cycling community.

[CampyorBust]

Having just turned 71 I have outlived all my favorite LBS, it is as simple as that. Besides with all the time on my hands I love working on and riding bikes!

I am less than half your age and I outlived my favorite LBS too. Then again it was more of a crack dealer that feed my addiction than an LBS.

When I get super rich then I will be able to fully support my LBS (and I wont have any problem doing so) until then its looking for too good to be true deals for me.

[Mark McM]

I am always amazed with lack of knowledge employees have. I guess it is just a job to some people, and only know enough to answer the most basic questions that they probably get asked often.

The same is true in most auto dealerships as well, but they seem to stay in business.

Sad though it may be, retail sales and product knowledge don't always go hand in hand.

On the other side of the coin, just like hard core bike enthusiasts, hard core auto enthusiasts don't generally go to the dealers for product knowledge either. But hard core enthusiasts are only a small portion of the total markets of both bike shops and auto dealerships.

[Mark McM]

That said, it's never about getting the most expensive equipment (well, it is if you're really pretentious, but those aren't my customers), it's about getting the right equipment and using it well. That's something you're never going to get from the internet. As amazed as you are about how little shop employees know, I'm amazed at how little the average customer knows, but how much they're willing to spend.

To pile on, the key to success in retail/sales isn't as much about knowing the product, it's about knowing the customers. It's not about selling the most expensive product, or the one with the most margin, its about selling the product that the customer is most happy to fork over their money for (and stay happy enough to come back and buy more products).

Knowing the products is of course useful to matching the product to the customer, but knowing the customer is the most important thing.


(People sometimes say to me, "Hey, you know a lot about bikes, why don't you go into the bike business." But I'm smart enough to know that knowing about bikes is only a fraction of what it takes to succeed. I know squat about running business, and even less about customer relations, so any bike business venture I might be involved with is doomed to failure.)

[-dustin]

My experience is most bike techs are like bartenders. Few are trained, most are as transient as bartenders, and many are weed smoking tattooed idiots that I wouldn't let near my bike.

this really, really rubbed me the wrong way. it must suck to live in an area that has so few capable "bike techs".

then again, perhaps it's not the "bike techs" that are the problem, but rather a lot of the internet forum users.

here's a crazy idea:

Support your shop, pay retail, allow your shop to make profit so that it can then send the employees off to get the training they need/ deserve in order to serve you better. Shop serves you better, you buy more stuff, they profit more, they can then increase employee pay so that he can consider it a career, which makes him happier and easier to deal with, which will help you spend more money there.

[FlashUNC]

Why support your LBS:

1) There when your home wrenching goes pear shaped. God knows I've needed this a time or two.
2) Local cycling community support. Why yes, I do enjoy those group rides that leave your parking lot on Saturday and Sunday mornings.
3) Help with a warranty issue. Not like I can call SRAM USA and complain about the umpteenth set of shifters that I've broken.
4) Stuff in stock. What a novel concept, going to a store, buying something and walking out with it. I get enough Amazon Prime boxes. Who needs more?
5) Keeping some of it in the local community. Yeah, the idea of enriching some guy in a warehouse in the English midlands doesn't excite me too much (apologies to any of our boardies from the English midlands). But if my patronage gives a local guy a living wage and can keep the lights on, maybe it'll come back around to enriching the local commmunity as a whole. And who knows, that bike shop owner might just need the product my company sells one of these days, and the virtuous economic cycle would be complete.

Are shops perfect? Absolutely not. Should we patronize bad ones? Lord no. But I'm not gonna gripe if the LBS charges me $10 more than a website for a bike part if it means a lot of those intangibles get paid off. That's worth more than the $10 for me.

[mtb_frk]

I missed a important word in my statement. "Some", as in some employees, not all.

I don't really think I'm your average bike shop employee, but I'm often amazed at how little I know about what we sell. I know nothing of mountain bikes, which means when a customer asks me about a bike there's a 40% chance I'm gonna give them a blank look are refer them to some kid we hired last week.

That said, it's never about getting the most expensive equipment (well, it is if you're really pretentious, but those aren't my customers), it's about getting the right equipment and using it well. That's something you're never going to get from the internet. As amazed as you are about how little shop employees know, I'm amazed at how little the average customer knows, but how much they're willing to spend.

I realize that I'm either a dying breed or just defective from birth, but I see my job as making the best cyclists, and selling what they need to reach their goals. By comparison, most sales people just want to sell anything they can get the customer to buy. The way I see it, selling the right stuff and offering my own 35 years of experience will build good riders who are loyal to the shop - that's my sustainable model. As I sell less than most of the other salespeople, I'm pretty sure I'm still at the shop 'cause those pesky customers keep asking for me...

[Clancy]

this really, really rubbed me the wrong way. it must suck to live in an area that has so few capable "bike techs".

then again, perhaps it's not the "bike techs" that are the problem, but rather a lot of the internet forum users.

here's a crazy idea:

Support your shop, pay retail, allow your shop to make profit so that it can then send the employees off to get the training they need/ deserve in order to serve you better. Shop serves you better, you buy more stuff, they profit more, they can then increase employee pay so that he can consider it a career, which makes him happier and easier to deal with, which will help you spend more money there.

Not my intent to rub anyone the wrong way, certainly my intent to start a discussion.

i have no issue paying retail. Example

I fully support REI, I have been a member since the early 80's. When I go in there I pay retail, albeit with a 10% dividend.

What do I get? A good assortment of high quality merchandise. I'm greeted and helped by highly motivated and trained staff that are experts in their respected areas. When I ask a REI employee about stoves, I'm talking to a guy that knows his stuff. Buying a rain shell? I'm going to get a quick lesson on technical fabrics. REI staff go through quite a few days of training before they set foot on the floor. They also go through regular sessions with factory reps to be up on the latest. Most are part time and starting wages are just above minimum. Most everything outdoor related I've purchased from REI over the years although I easily could have saved money buying online.

So not only no, but hell no am I going to walk into a LBS where I'm not greeted, not helped, and where the staff know little to nothing, and pay retail to help them get better.

Not to rub anyone the wrong way, but that is a really crazy idea.

[CiclistiCliff]

We handle your warranties when it was you who actually broke the part.
We are your teddy bear hospital, here to mend your baby right before your 'big ride ' you've been training for.
We know how your bike is configured, how you ride your bike, how you wear out certain components and make recommendations based on your needs rather than a bunch of forumites who have never met you.
We have stuff in stock. A lot of stuff.
We act like your advisor when you foot goes to sleep, taint hurts, wife says you have too many bikes, can't find what you need and recommend product we don't even carry as it will benefit you.
We are not stoner 'techs' who break things. The two mechanics are 29 and 42 and we do this out of passion but are making a decent living wage because we are good at what we do - BUT I know many whom fall into stoner tech category and they are the ones who no longer have jobs in my area.

Sales staff turnover is significant as management is never willing to compensate appropriately for the knowledge that is required to support customers - high end road/mtb, component compatibility, geometry, soft goods, hard goods, accessories, hybrids , new customers vs established customers, etc. When you find someone who is knowledgeable and under 35 they are likely to be focused on education as well so they don't remain in the shop for more than a few years.

Some shops are horrid. Some shops are mediocre. Some shops go above and beyond. Some great shops will go out of business if they dont accept industry changes and doesn't cater to the full spectrum of cyclists.

[livingminimal]

Ok, first let me say this very well may open up a can of worms. I do not intend to be controversial

weed smoking tattooed idiots that I wouldn't let near my bike.


The two best mechanics where I am from...one is a habitual weed smoker, the other is tattooed down to his hands.

Never heard a single complaint about either of these two from their mechanical capability. Everyone knows them. Some may be bothered by them in other respects, some even hate/loathe them and will admit it openly, but their ability to wrench has never, ever been questioned as far as I can tell.

As a person with over 30 tattoos that enjoys some libations now and then and is a professional who is really, really, really good at their job and has several degrees from excellent universities, I did want to tell you, though, to go ���� yourself.

[AngryScientist]

I did want to tell you, though, to go ���� yourself.

with that very classy comment, this thread is closed. i really don't think we needed another LBS bashing thread, we've had a bunch of them lately - but it would have been fine to carry on this conversation without stooping to the level of insulting each other, but this thread did indeed go there.

public reminder: please do not let a difference of opinions on any particular topic devolve into personal attacks against each other. we're better than that.

Nick