Next Gen Dura Ace Details Confirmed(ish)

[ptourkin]

The best is getting better. The next generation of Shimano’s top-tier Dura-Ace group, already our favorite on the electronic and mechanical fronts, will include a power meter, road-specific disc brakes and rotors, improved Di2 integration, drag-free hubs, and the same clever shifting firmware debuted on the XTR Di2 mountain bike group.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/confirmed-details-new-dura-ace-discs-power-meter_400229#AlwXcf7gRtWSeXvf.99

[AngryScientist]

interesting. looking forward to see what shimano does with their new hub design.

[Dead Man]

Disc ONLY?

[livingminimal]

Aside from the hubs which could be real progress, the rest of it is quality-of-life improvements by the looks of it.

[livingminimal]

Disc ONLY?

I think more that they're doing some disc road specific things, but not exclusively a disc line. If that makes sense.

[Mr. Squirrel]

more shiny bits! nuk nuk nuk!

mr. squirrel

[CunegoFan]

Uh-oh. That sound you hear is the power meter market imploding.

[Dead Man]

Uh-oh. That sound you hear is the power meter market imploding.

For real... first thing I thought too.

DA is still higher-end, higher than most riders use, including, I am sure, most powermeter users.

But I wonder if the cost offset will be enough to draw, say, Ultegra + power users over to DA instead

[oldpotatoe]

The best is getting better. The next generation of Shimano’s top-tier Dura-Ace group, already our favorite on the electronic and mechanical fronts, will include a power meter, road-specific disc brakes and rotors, improved Di2 integration, drag-free hubs, and the same clever shifting firmware debuted on the XTR Di2 mountain bike group.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/confirmed-details-new-dura-ace-discs-power-meter_400229#AlwXcf7gRtWSeXvf.99

So ya mean shifting protocols like EPS is now with V3?. :o

[MattTuck]

I believe that article is wrong about this being Shimano's first power-meter. I believe they had a system that measured power based on chain tension, which they could somehow detect through harmonics.

Don't have time to look up the details right now. Anyone else remember this?

[livingminimal]

Uh-oh. That sound you hear is the power meter market imploding.

Maybe, I don't know. So many factors. Remember Flightdeck? I think a lot of people probably thought at first blush that Shimano would then own the computer market.

I do think this will make it exceptionally tough for some PM manufacturers especially ones struggling to gain footing now (Pioneer comes to mind) to gain any more traction, and could potentially be the deth knell of pedal-based systems from Garmin and Powertap (is anyone using PT at this point?). Quarq and other comparable products may start to suffer....

Stages is going to launch their own GPS enabled computer I believe...I also think their pricing is likely to start coming down even further. The next big power market is going to be the average club rider that is on Ultegra or maybe 105...

Shimano has a lot of leverage to create an affordable product already integrated into their cranks, and they have the infrastructure to do so...Can you imagine if the standard crank just simply jumps up by $150 bucks but now includes strain gauges and a transmitter?

Maybe that will be enough to kill everyone off. You know every Shimano sponsored team is going to be required to use it...

So much intrigue.

[Mark McM]

I said this before in a different thread, but its worth saying it again here. With the latest Dura-Ace group, it looks like the march toward hydraulic disc brakes replacing cable operated rim brakes is continuing (whether we like or not).

There has been some debate about the place of hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes. There are good arguments to be made both for and against them. And who can argue that choice is ever a bad thing - if you want to use them, use them, and if you don't want to use them, don't use them. But on a practical basis, will there really be a choice?

There are currently two competing shifting actuations - cable actuation, and electric motor actuation. Now there are become two competing brake actuations - cable actuation (primarily rim brakes, but some disc brakes), and hydraulic actuation (primarily disc brakes, but some rim brakes). Since the advent of dual control levers ("brifters"), shifting and braking actuation have become co-dependent. So there are now 4 possible variations of shift/brake actuations (even within the same manufacturer or group set): Cable/cable, electronic/cable, cable/hydraulic, and electronic/hydraulic. It is very unlikely that the component manufacturers will make all variations of dual control shifters within each group set, so they will likely settle for just one of these options, or at most two options. So it is likely that if you want a top-of-the-line group set, you will not have an option of the type of shift/brake actuation you have to use.

The same is likewise likely with frames. While it is possible to make a frame that is compatible with both rim and disc brakes, to do so requires many compromises, so such a frame could not be optimumized for one or the other. Given that manufacturers are splitting hairs to save every gram of weight and aero drag to try to differentiate their offerings from their competitor's, it is likely that each manufacturer will select only one type of braking system for each model or line of frames. So, the customer's choices will be limited here, as well.

In the end, whether they are really better or not, and whether customers really want them or not, it is entirely possible that large portions of the bike industry will move exclusively to hydraulic disc brakes.

[Mark McM]

I believe that article is wrong about this being Shimano's first power-meter. I believe they had a system that measured power based on chain tension, which they could somehow detect through harmonics.

I believe you're thinking of the Polar power meter (Polar is most known for its heart rate sensors). Shimano never had such a system.

Don't have time to look up the details right now. Anyone else remember this?

Really? I assume you were sitting in front of an internet connected device (PC, tablet, phone, etc.) when you typed. I took me longer to type this response than it did to do a Google search and find multiple references to the Polar CS600 chain tension based power meter.

[MattTuck]

I believe you're thinking of the Polar power meter (Polar is most known for its heart rate sensors). Shimano never had such a system.



Really? I assume you were sitting in front of an internet connected device (PC, tablet, phone, etc.) when you typed. I took me longer to type this response than it did to do a Google search and find multiple references to the Polar CS600 chain tension based power meter.

Oh yes, that is the one. And yes, I typed it at the computer, and did a search for shimano chain power meter, but didn't find anything, that's why I was asking if my memory was off. And since I was trying to do a few things before I had to leave my office for a quick meeting, I did not have time to investigate further. If I had searched for polar power meter, I wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place. Of course, if I had remembered Polar in the first place, I wouldn't have made the post at all. :help:

[Mikej]

I believe that article is wrong about this being Shimano's first power-meter. I believe they had a system that measured power based on chain tension, which they could somehow detect through harmonics.

Don't have time to look up the details right now. Anyone else remember this?

That was POLAR

[berserk87]

Hopefully one can retrofit the crankset that measures power onto existing 11 speed stuff. That would be cool.

[thirdgenbird]

is anyone using PT at this point?

I have a PT hub. It's a good solution for me. I can very quickly move it to any bike in the house. My road, rando, cyclocross or even my wife's bike. Some have look pedals, some spd, standards cranks, compacts, 1x, square taper, ultra torque 175s, and 170s. The only aspect all the bikes share are cassette and rim brake. It is admittedly a unique situation but the PT hub is a good solution.

[Mark McM]

I have a PT hub. It's a good solution for me. I can very quickly move it to any bike in the house. My road, rando, cyclocross or even my wife's bike. Some have look pedals, some spd, standards cranks, compacts, 1x, square taper, ultra torque 175s, and 170s. The only aspect all the bikes share are cassette and rim brake. It is admittedly a unique situation but the PT hub is a good solution.

I assume you mean PowerTap hub (rather than PowerTap P1 pedals or PowerTap C1 chainrings).

For any power measurement system, you have to insert a special power measuring component into the drivetrain (pedals, cranks, chainrings, hub). But these components have their own very specific compatibilities, which may not be ideal for all riders/bikes. For example, my knees prefer pedals with a lot of free rotation, and I also prefer a low stack height, so I use Speedplay X series pedals. Neither the PowerTap P1 nor Garmin Vector pedals provide these as well as the Speedplay pedals. My hips prefer a narrow Q and narrow U factors, narrower than most power measuring cranks provide. That leaves the PowerTap C1 chainrings, and the PowerTap hub. The PowerTap C1 chainrings won't fit on bikes with Campagnolo cranks; even if I used different cranks, I also sometimes swapped chainring sizes, which is not easy (or inexpensive) with the PowerTap C1 cranks.

This leaves the PowerTap G3 hub, which is very generic, fits all my bikes, can be built with many different types of rims, and changing gearing by swapping cassettes is easy and fast.

[thirdgenbird]

Yes, pt hub. I've got a fairly wide range cassette on it so for most uses, im a quick tire swap from having power on anything* in the house.


*Ok, so not my wife's 120mm spaced single speed townie but I don't count that.

[benb]

The power thing is interesting especially if you can drop the DA crank with power into an Ultegra/105 groupset. It will suddenly mean you're getting a better crank and a power meter at a lower cost.

It seems like any PM with a crank automatically has a big premium over the crank itself, possibly too much.

All I really know is Stages cause that's what I have but IIRC if I wanted a whole Ultegra crankset with PM it was like $1000. Buying the crankset myself and then just buying the left arm came out more like $700.

So I several spare left crankarms now.

Looks like SRM is adding $1500-1600 to the price of a DA Crankset... Shimano could easily double the price of the crankset and still undercut them like crazy if this new product is solid.

[bicycletricycle]

drag free?

super

[livingminimal]

the PT Hub is a good solution, no disagreement there, but between multiple mixed-use/format bikes (disc, non-disc especially) like I have, a Stages arm is my go-to. My cross bike on my Ultegra 6800 44/34 setup accepts the arm, and the entire da9k stages crankset moves between multiple road bikes depending on what I feel like riding that week.

but yeah, PT's chain set and pedal solutions don't seem to be doing great in the marketplace.

[Dead Man]

Crap, man.. I'm actually looking forward to road disc. I can go back to good lightweight carbon rims, someday.

[deechee]

but yeah, PT's chain set and pedal solutions don't seem to be doing great in the marketplace.

Dcrainmaker (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/02/further-pioneer-powertap.html) says otherwise:
"As for the PowerTap P1 or C1 units, no price drops there. And, I certainly wouldn’t expect to see them. They can’t keep units on the shelves, so there’s zero reason to drop the price at this time (and they’re priced quite competitively in the market)."

How did this thread turn into a discussion about PTs? I have two PT hubs, and a power2max crank. Love 'em all. Would I buy a Dura-Ace powermeter crank? Possibly, but I have a feeling it would be way too expensive, not the other way around.

The new hub design sounds awesome though. Not a fan of discs on road just yet...

[livingminimal]

Dcrainmaker (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/02/further-pioneer-powertap.html) says otherwise:
"As for the PowerTap P1 or C1 units, no price drops there. And, I certainly wouldn’t expect to see them. They can’t keep units on the shelves, so there’s zero reason to drop the price at this time (and they’re priced quite competitively in the market)."

That's interesting. I mean, here, no one is riding them, and very few places are stocking them, at least as near as I can see. Vectors have done horrendously as well. One shop I know of has had returns/warranty issues etc on all seven or eight pairs they've sold. I still think they're the odd-man out in the Power market place...



How did this thread turn into a discussion about PTs? I have two PT hubs, and a power2max crank. Love 'em all. Would I buy a Dura-Ace powermeter crank? Possibly, but I have a feeling it would be way too expensive, not the other way around.

well, because we were talking about power meters and Shimano's entrance into the market , which aside from the hubs is the biggest splash, and who might be affected...seems pretty logical.


The new hub design sounds awesome though. Not a fan of discs on road just yet...

I am interested if they do it similar to DA and Ultegra hubs where you can buy and build yourself...they probably will.

[EDS]

I said this before in a different thread, but its worth saying it again here. With the latest Dura-Ace group, it looks like the march toward hydraulic disc brakes replacing cable operated rim brakes is continuing (whether we like or not).

There has been some debate about the place of hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes. There are good arguments to be made both for and against them. And who can argue that choice is ever a bad thing - if you want to use them, use them, and if you don't want to use them, don't use them. But on a practical basis, will there really be a choice?

There are currently two competing shifting actuations - cable actuation, and electric motor actuation. Now there are become two competing brake actuations - cable actuation (primarily rim brakes, but some disc brakes), and hydraulic actuation (primarily disc brakes, but some rim brakes). Since the advent of dual control levers ("brifters"), shifting and braking actuation have become co-dependent. So there are now 4 possible variations of shift/brake actuations (even within the same manufacturer or group set): Cable/cable, electronic/cable, cable/hydraulic, and electronic/hydraulic. It is very unlikely that the component manufacturers will make all variations of dual control shifters within each group set, so they will likely settle for just one of these options, or at most two options. So it is likely that if you want a top-of-the-line group set, you will not have an option of the type of shift/brake actuation you have to use.

The same is likewise likely with frames. While it is possible to make a frame that is compatible with both rim and disc brakes, to do so requires many compromises, so such a frame could not be optimumized for one or the other. Given that manufacturers are splitting hairs to save every gram of weight and aero drag to try to differentiate their offerings from their competitor's, it is likely that each manufacturer will select only one type of braking system for each model or line of frames. So, the customer's choices will be limited here, as well.

In the end, whether they are really better or not, and whether customers really want them or not, it is entirely possible that large portions of the bike industry will move exclusively to hydraulic disc brakes.

Technically there is a third shifting actuation option with rotor's hydraulic group.

[EDS]

The power thing is interesting especially if you can drop the DA crank with power into an Ultegra/105 groupset. It will suddenly mean you're getting a better crank and a power meter at a lower cost.

It seems like any PM with a crank automatically has a big premium over the crank itself, possibly too much.

All I really know is Stages cause that's what I have but IIRC if I wanted a whole Ultegra crankset with PM it was like $1000. Buying the crankset myself and then just buying the left arm came out more like $700.

So I several spare left crankarms now.

Looks like SRM is adding $1500-1600 to the price of a DA Crankset... Shimano could easily double the price of the crankset and still undercut them like crazy if this new product is solid.

I think Stages sells the Dura-Ace crankset option for around $1100, while the ultegra is more in the $850 neighborhood.

[makoti]

(is anyone using PT at this point?). Quarq and other comparable products may start to suffer....

I use both of these, now. Up until about a month ago, I was just on a PT G3 hub. I do like the Quarq. It allows me to train with all my fancy-pants wheels. I found that I was riding one bike over the other more than I really wanted to just because one had carbon wheels and the other the PT. And I'm too lazy to be swapping brake pads a lot. I've also got 3 bikes, so the PT covers two of them & the Quarq is on the third. Except for the ridiculous tool to change the battery, I think the PT hub is a good idea.

[benb]

I think Stages sells the Dura-Ace crankset option for around $1100, while the ultegra is more in the $850 neighborhood.

Yep, $850 vs $779. (I paid $200 for a 6800 crankset earlier this month.)

But what if the Shimano 6900 crankset with PM ended up at a street price of $300 in a few years?

[Mark McM]

Technically there is a third shifting actuation option with rotor's hydraulic group.

Or there will be, when Rotor finally starts selling it. But as Rotor doesn't make a cable or electronic shifter, they only have two potential configurations (hydraulic/cable, hydraulic/hydraulic), and I suspect they will actually only produce one of them.

[thermalattorney]

One of the things I like about Di2 is the level of customization it offers. I've got a Di2 R785 bike and would love to try it out Synchro shifting. Given the 4 button layout, one could imagine the closest two buttons doing the usual up-down Synchro biz with the dimpled buttons overriding the FD.

Will the Synchro shifting feature require more the new junction box?
Will Shimano roll that feature out to all Di2 groups as part of their etube system?

[batman1425]

Internal cockpit junction box sounds like it could be a real PITA for folks with frames that are not designed for it. The internal handlebar option only works for bars with internal cable routing options.

I'm hoping that they keep an external option for those with out compatible bars/frames.

I don't see the current Ultegra external style box being intrusive in any way and with 3 ports/shifter, you can run sprint buttons and a climbing pod with out needing an additional junction box, and only have 1 wire headed into the frame. Also, if you move junction A inside the frame/handlebar, where's the charging point going to go? A port on one of the der? Sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

[ptourkin]

Uh-oh. That sound you hear is the power meter market imploding.

Agree. SRM is dead.

[thirdgenbird]

Or there will be, when Rotor finally starts selling it. But as Rotor doesn't make a cable or electronic shifter, they only have two potential configurations (hydraulic/cable, hydraulic/hydraulic), and I suspect they will actually only produce one of them.

So far, their rim brakes are also hydraulic so it will be hydro/hydro and you pick what type of caliper you need based on the frame.

[RowanB]

There are currently two competing shifting actuations - cable actuation, and electric motor actuation. Now there are become two competing brake actuations - cable actuation (primarily rim brakes, but some disc brakes), and hydraulic actuation (primarily disc brakes, but some rim brakes). Since the advent of dual control levers ("brifters"), shifting and braking actuation have become co-dependent. So there are now 4 possible variations of shift/brake actuations (even within the same manufacturer or group set): Cable/cable, electronic/cable, cable/hydraulic, and electronic/hydraulic. It is very unlikely that the component manufacturers will make all variations of dual control shifters within each group set, so they will likely settle for just one of these options, or at most two options. So it is likely that if you want a top-of-the-line group set, you will not have an option of the type of shift/brake actuation you have to use.

[...]

In the end, whether they are really better or not, and whether customers really want them or not, it is entirely possible that large portions of the bike industry will move exclusively to hydraulic disc brakes.

That's a really interesting point and it makes me wonder how much room there is for differentiation between levels of electronic shifters. Can Shimano make 5(?) different levels of what are basically switches with a meaningful distinction between them? Perhaps there will be a full suite of DA level options with fewer levels of groupset?

[Gummee]

Once the D/A power is out, anyone wanna buy a Verve Infocrank + head unit? I can move it from bike-to-bike and run both road and CX rings on the same unit.

...and... it'll match the rest of my Shimano drivetrain!

Win-win!

M

[shovelhd]

One of the things I like about Di2 is the level of customization it offers. I've got a Di2 R785 bike and would love to try it out Synchro shifting. Given the 4 button layout, one could imagine the closest two buttons doing the usual up-down Synchro biz with the dimpled buttons overriding the FD.

Will the Synchro shifting feature require more the new junction box?
Will Shimano roll that feature out to all Di2 groups as part of their etube system?

I thought this could be done today with 9070. Isn't it an option in E-Tube? I have no interest in it.

[ultraman6970]

IMO shimano is making this stuff more complicated of what should be.

[shovelhd]

Agree. SRM is dead.

We shall see. My SRM will be running well past the time this crank is obsolete.

[R3awak3n]

SRM is not dead, not even close but they will have to drop the price... ALOT.


its time for power meters to be cheaper, its not that complicated of a device and they are becoming more mainstream. The 4iiii meter is $400 which is a decent deal but you are starting to see power tap wheels go for $400 complete in the used market, hard to argue with that.

I have a PT and really like it, I think its one of the best meters in the sense that it has been out for AWHILE and has virtually no problems (all kinks are out), its cheap and you can easily put it on all your bikes. Now I don't have 50 wheels like some people here so it works for me but I can understand why people with lots of wheels would rather have a quarq, or stages or srm


edit: I am also surprised none of the big 3 have come out with a power meter before.

[Miles]

edit: I am also surprised none of the big 3 have come out with a power meter before.

Quarq is owned by SRAM.

[R3awak3n]

Quarq is owned by SRAM.

fair enough, sram bought the tech I guess and that was smart.

[shovelhd]

fair enough, sram bought the tech I guess and that was smart.

The two companies were a perfect fit. Nobody handles warranty failures better than SRAM.

[livingminimal]

The two companies were a perfect fit. Nobody handles warranty failures better than SRAM.

:banana:

In all seriousness, does quarq have a history of this? I truly have no idea.

[54ny77]

Yes! I'm eagerly anticipating this....as I'd like to see some pristine 7900 groups hit the classifieds....;)

Call me a retrogrouch. :beer:

[Mikej]

IMO shimano is making this stuff more complicated of what should be.

Everything on the planet seems to have this basic marketing plan.

[zrossiter]

at least when this comes out I can maybe afford a 9000 group...

[ptourkin]

Apparently Shimano wasn't too happy about the article: https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-bradley/drawing-a-line/10153994882063286

[ptourkin]

We shall see. My SRM will be running well past the time this crank is obsolete.

Hyperbole maybe. I have SRM on my 9000 group but for the price I could have had power on my CX and track bikes too. I'm entering year 2 on my PC8 and it still doesn't have the features they announced in 2013. It's a great unit, but with the speed the consumer electronics market moves now, I don't see how they can continue being above a small niche producer for pro teams and real power nerds.

[Mark McM]

That's a really interesting point and it makes me wonder how much room there is for differentiation between levels of electronic shifters. Can Shimano make 5(?) different levels of what are basically switches with a meaningful distinction between them? Perhaps there will be a full suite of DA level options with fewer levels of groupset?

Are electrical switches any less complicated than other components? Chains are very simple devices, yet Shimano makes more than 5 versions of 10spd chains. And while 10spd chains are all the same size and shape (and basically interchangeable), shift button modules might be all different sizes and shapes for mounting in different locations on different styles of handlebars.

[54ny77]

wow.



Apparently Shimano wasn't too happy about the article: https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-bradley/drawing-a-line/10153994882063286

[GregL]

wow.
Yup, this could convince me to subscribe to VeloNews again.

- Greg

[Dead Man]

All I get is "page unavailable"

[Mark McM]

All I get is "page unavailable"

Hmmm... I viewed the page a short time ago, but when I did a page 'refresh' a very short time later (to get an update on the comments), it reported "Page unavailable". Could the page have been pulled?

[PaMtbRider]

All I get is "page unavailable"

Me too. What did it say?

[AngryScientist]

Me too. What did it say?

essentially that shimano threatened velonews that if they ran the article about the leaked info on new DA they would pull all of their ads on VN, and other such threatening behavior.

[Dead Man]

essentially that shimano threatened velonews that if they ran the article about the leaked info on new DA they would pull all of their ads on VN, and other such threatening behavior.

Wow... I guess Shimano struck back

http://www.centives.net/S/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/032314_0747_HowMuchWoul1.png

[Mr_Gimby]

Abandoning all talk of power meters, I'd love to see a multiple-upshift capability on the mechanical 9100. shifting 2-3 cogs at a time would be great for those sudden downpitches, esp in cross racing.

[shovelhd]

:banana:

In all seriousness, does quarq have a history of this? I truly have no idea.

I broke three of them before I switched to SRM and Stages. Enough is enough.

[Mr_Gimby]

I broke three of them before I switched to SRM and Stages. Enough is enough.

Never had any issues with Quarqs, but my stages was an unending headache. Sold it 3 months after I got it. Pioneer FTW!

[shovelhd]

Ptourkin, what missing features on your PC8?

[ptourkin]

Ptourkin, what missing features on your PC8?

Wifi and Bluetooth, which were a major part of the hype. I really like it for the long battery life, which is a big deal for my events but there are other issues that people are having, including water ingress. I've been ziplocking it on rainy rides, which kind of sucks for something that cost that much.

[ptourkin]

All I get is "page unavailable"

Drawing a line
JOHN BRADLEY·THURSDAY, MARCH 31, 2016

Instead of running a story earlier this year based on rumors and spy shots, VeloNews spent the past few weeks digging for details and confirmation. We got the facts, double sourced, and then, before publishing, called the main subject of the story for comment. Their reply: Run this, and we’ll cancel our remaining advertising with you for 2016.
In fact, they threatened to pull their ads not just from VeloNews but also from another title that is owned by the company that owns us. They even reached out to other brands in the cycling industry to try to increase the pressure on us.
We didn’t do anything illegal in our reporting, nor were we under any embargoes or NDAs. (Nor were we the only ones chasing the story.) We got the news the same way journalists always do: By calling sources, doing research, and verifying information to tell a story that is of interest to our readers. Indeed, no one has questioned our accuracy. The only issue is that we gave our readers facts that someone didn’t want them to have.
I love the brand in question. I count many friends amongst their staff and am a huge fan of their products. They'll continue to receive fair coverage in VeloNews, ads or no. They know, as do other brands in the cycling world, that I would never hold coverage hostage for ad buys.
By the same token, we won’t give into coercion or allow brands to hold ads hostage in exchange for editorial influence. I’m all for sponsored content, co-branded events, and other ways that media create new advertising formats. But letting brands use ads to influence editorial coverage crosses a line.
If you think I’m taking myself too seriously, let me ask you this: At what point is an industry small and insular enough that the journalists who cover it no longer have to be ethical?
I would say no such point exists. So I made a decision this week that cost us money we can’t really afford to lose. (If you’re in enthusiast media, you know how tough things can get.) But we were asked to choose between money and integrity.
My point is this: If you stick with your principles only when it is easy to do so, and abandon them as soon as they become inconvenient, you have no principles at all. So know that, while VeloNews’s ad content may change from month to month, our editorial integrity will not. We respect this sport, its brands, and our readers too much not to be honest with them.

[shovelhd]

Wifi and Bluetooth, which were a major part of the hype. I really like it for the long battery life, which is a big deal for my events but there are other issues that people are having, including water ingress. I've been ziplocking it on rainy rides, which kind of sucks for something that cost that much.

I could care less about both but I get it, promises are promises. I haven't had any water ingress issues and it's been soaked many times. I hope I never do.

[Gat64]

All I get is "page unavailable"

Page seems to be up again, at least I can see it.

[beeatnik]

VeloNews, I like your not to be confused with Bike Rumor style.

[oldpotatoe]

VeloNews, I like your not to be confused with Bike Rumor style.

They have always been the 'tell the truth, AD$ be damned', type pub. Not so many years ago, Campagnolo pulled all their AD $ for something not very complimentary said by Velonews..I say good for them, tell it like it is( or at least as how you see it).

[velotrack]

Page seems to be up again, at least I can see it.


Maybe you have to be logged in for it to work.