An Ex-Doper's position in your life?

[ANAO]

I was recently involved in a discussion regarding an ex-pro who used to dope, but is now (no longer racing and) clean and involved in our sport in other non-racing ways.

Where do you stand on such an individual? He has issued statements and published works regretting his decisions during that time, but then again, haven't they all?

Forgive and forget?

[oldpotatoe]

I was recently involved in a discussion regarding an ex-pro who used to dope, but is now (no longer racing and) clean and involved in our sport in other non-racing ways.

Where do you stand on such an individual? He has issued statements and published works regretting his decisions during that time, but then again, haven't they all?

Forgive and forget?

Forgive and not forget. We all make mistakes.

[MattTuck]

I tend to have a high degree of ambivalence in many things, and this topic is no different. If they are from the era when this stuff went on, pretty much unchecked, it is hard to hold a grudge against the rider. I mean, there were many MANY others complicit in the system that led him to do that.

At the same time, I don't think you can just ignore the personal responsibility part of it, and it seems like he has spent some time reflecting on that aspect of his decisions and seems contrite. You can't ask for much more than that.

I still think there are dopers in the peloton, but I think the culture has changed somewhat. If a rider I liked got popped today, I'd be more angry at him personally, than I would have in the past.

In the past, I think there was a sense that riders had to dope to be competitive. Today, I think there is a sense that a doping positive hurts the sport over-all. And, so PED use has potential ripple effects well beyond the individual rider.

[Tickdoc]

I was recently involved in a discussion regarding an ex-pro who used to dope, but is now (no longer racing and) clean and involved in our sport in other non-racing ways.

Where do you stand on such an individual? He has issued statements and published works regretting his decisions during that time, but then again, haven't they all?

Forgive and forget?


Do you like the guy as a person?

Unfriending a doper who fessed up I would have no problem with, if I liked them as a person.

I still like Dave z just as much as I did when he raced. I felt he may be guilty early on after reading an article of him rooming with Floyd. I'd hang out with either one of those guys.

If you had to cut ties with anyone who doped, there wouldn't be many old guys around to friend.

Gotta go with your gut.

[shovelhd]

As long as he never races a sanctioned race again, or coaches a rider or team, fine with me. Good for him for giving back to the sport in non competitive ways.

[benb]

In the end (at least in the US) they did something that was unethical but not necessarily illegal to get ahead in a profession.

There are tons of other people doing that every day in all kinds of other professions and we generally don't even really have this discussion. If a person is really obvious about it, in your face, or generally extra annoying about it I bet you avoid that person. But they generally don't get the same kind of treatment cyclists seem to get.

I don't really know anyone in this situation as I don't know any pro cyclists. I've met a few once or twice and I find I'm kind of ambivalent about it all. If I actually knew someone in that situation it'd completely depend on their personality and how they treated others.

[harlond]

Drunk driving is worse than doping. So if you've unfriended every person in your life that ever drove drunk, unfriend this guy.

[redir]

Just let it go. Unless it's Lance... It's not Lance is it?

[bking]

Yep, forgive and forget and take him at his word. It'd be pretty tough for any of us if a ledger were kept...well, would be for me anyway.

[numbskull]

Always consult this before being nice to anyone.

[LouDeeter]

What about all the ex-pros who doped, but didn't admit it. We still hold many of them on pedestals. There is no way now to prove one way or another that they did or didn't, yet when you examine the extent it was used, there is little doubt in my mind that some of our greatest heroes took something they weren't supposed to take. I'm ready to move on from this. The sport is the sport. We forgive a lot of people for their mistakes, I see no difference here.

[MattTuck]

What about all the ex-pros who doped, but didn't admit it. We still hold many of them on pedestals. There is no way now to prove one way or another that they did or didn't, yet when you examine the extent it was used, there is little doubt in my mind that some of our greatest heroes took something they weren't supposed to take. I'm ready to move on from this. The sport is the sport. We forgive a lot of people for their mistakes, I see no difference here.

Are you talking about Greg Lemond or Jens Voigt? :rolleyes:

[KWalker]

I was friends and teammates with a former pro who served a suspension for doping. He raced post-ban and got a ton of victories and was also tested a ton as well. He never tested positive again, rode well, was extremely nice and a great part of the community, and most of all people often talked behind his back and treated him like crap.

At the time we started riding I was a cat 4 and he was still racing at a high level. We did a few rides together and got along really well. I knew about his history, but never let on that I did and on the 2nd or 3rd ride he came out and told me the entire story- his side and USADA's. I honestly found myself not caring a whole lot. He conducted himself better than 95% of cyclists, had an incredible wealth of tactical knowledge, and later went on to promote and help with a lot of local races. I think he is a better person than most non-dopers.

Doping sucks, but people also cheat on their spouses, sexually abuse people, commit white collar crimes, do illegal drugs, drive drunk and tons of other things that I consider far worse and far riskier for society. I have seen people in every company I have ever worked at cheat, cut corners, plagirize, etc. which to me are about the same as doping in terms of doing things that are unethical to further one's career success.

[livingminimal]

I work with victims of domestic violence for a living.
Previous to this, I worked with homeless families at a school for homeless kids, living in some truly awful conditions (by Western standards)
I've worked with debilitating poverty, homelessness, DV, etc for all of my career.

Not to get all sanctimonious and ····, but, as much as I hate doping/dopers, I hate assholes a whole lot more. Perspective is important to me.

Basically you can dope and not be an asshole, and I will roll my eyes at your transgressions but in the end, we will probably be ok.

You can be a doper and an asshole, and I'll probably loathe you. (Lance)

[MarkC]

We have a couple guys who served two year bans. One is coming back to race, skipped out on his test and (of course) claims he never doped. The other guy clearly cheated, got nailed and admitted it. Said he wouldn't come back to race, but now wants to and is testing the water.

First guy is strong but no real palmares. Second guy had multiple Masters Nats titles. So it's a real question and not one restricted to pros.

My perspective is they made a mistake for doping/cheating but have served the penalty. The rules allow them to race again so if they want to they should. As to friendship, we won't be personal friends but I won't make life more difficult for them

I'd like to see the bans be more like 5 years not 2 for first offense. Two years is too short for the crime and not much of a deterrent (if any).

Also consider having a previously banned rider pay an extra fee to come back. The fee would be used to test them in the future. Sort of a pay to play because you've been dirty before concept. Have given no thought to the practicalities of that idea so don't spend lots of electrons saying: "can't do it.... yadda yadda)

[bicycletricycle]

We have all made mistakes (I have).

[Peter P.]

Has the doper repented? Are they humbled as a result of the experience? Have they resolved to not dope anymore?

If they have no remorse and behave as if they didn't do anything wrong then I would take exception to their behavior. I agree that everyone makes mistakes but those that don't change their behavior as a result of being caught don't deserve my time or respect.

[54ny77]

i say let usac commission primal wear to design the absolute most hideous jersey that all dopers must wear for 1 year following their reinstatement to racing.

:bike:

[Dead Man]

Are we talking friend? Teammate? Family member? No-cyclist co-worker?

If teammate, I'd probably just ask for a hookup..

Success in life is frequently who you know, not what you know.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/Y2nbrJyAR6RiM/200_s.gif

[Ralph]

Based on your description of him.....I probably would not care about his background. I don't know the background of all my riding buds.....but I like riding with them.

[Ti Designs]

My first exposure to doping was in the selection process for the junior national team. They wanted kids who would store blood in the fridge and I wanted no part of it. Part of that was questioning the safety of the program, which turned out to be a damn good call. The other part was a question of entitlement. The kids who took part in the blood boosting program felt they deserved the victory, the world somehow owed it to them. I've never felt the world owed me anything, I worked hard and raced hard. Not being part of the program also meant not being part of the team...

My point is another word for entitled is a$$hole. That feeling that you deserve more than others rarely goes away. So the question isn't if they cheated, the answer is if they would cheat today if they thought nobody would ever find out.

[Ronsonic]

An ex-doper is another ex-bike-racer. No, they didn't all dope. Just all the ones at the front. But it's more or less impossible to know at this point.

My first exposure to doping was in High School football. In the mid SEVENTIES, 1970s. I didn't. Neither did most of us. We listened to the coach talk about "preparation" and "doing what it takes." Few of us did. But the message was clear. The message has been loud and clear in every sport since then and before. "Winners do what it takes."

I see no reason for contempt for any pro who was doping in cycling. They were all extraordinary athletes who worked insanely hard and took all sorts of risks on and off the bike to achieve extraordinary things.

Lance, got know idea when he started doping, but I'm damn sure the guys on the football team he went to high school with were. That was the nineties. The doctors then would write a script because Timmy had psychological issues because the other players were bigger. Is Lance a world class a-hole? Oh, hell yeah, no shortage of those but I will agree, he's special. So are a few others. To me it's the asshole factor, not the dope that puts me off.

[Ti Designs]

To me it's the asshole factor, not the dope that puts me off.

That was my point.

[pbarry]

A few years ago, I ran into an expro I've known for 35+ years. Not an easily riled guy, but he went off a bit on the LeMond/Trek dust up and Greg's accusations about LA's doping. He thought GL should be quiet. It was curious to me at the time, but I chalked it up to old rivalries.

After the reasoned decision, the interaction seemed more prescient, and the expro's motivations were evident. Lost some respect for him as he knew what was going on from the late 80's forward, and could have spoken out in retirement, instead of, at worst, being complicit, or, at best, looking the other way while he was still racing.

Not quite to the OP's point, but there's a lot of of fallout when bad things come to light.

[Walter]

Forgive and not forget. We all make mistakes.

Well said...wise words

[bigbill]

Depends on the situation. I don't know how much time I spent chasing Leduc around courses in the 90's. He would just check out of a breakaway group whenever he felt like it.

Except for people like him, I'm cool with past dopers who have moved on. I have two Mellow Johnny's jerseys and four pair of Hincapie shorts. Lance really hasn't moved on, he still has too much baggage, but Hincapie open admits what he did. Mostly.

[numbskull]

The need to judge people is no different than the need to dope.
Just sayin.

[weiwentg]

The need to judge people is no different than the need to dope.
Just sayin.

Can you explain what you mean? Because I really can't understand how. Doping is cheating. The need to dope stems from an unbridled ambition to win at any cost, or the need to keep up with the former crowd. I know that mentioning Lance Armstrong's name is the reductio ad Hitlerum of cycling forums, but the fact is that he fits the former category.

[oldpotatoe]

Well said...wise words

Way before I really knew who the late and great Sheldon Brown was..on the old rec.tech forum, I railed on him because he critisized a Campagnolo low end front hub(Veloce)..I saw him at Interbike, he recognized me, and after very few words, I apologized, because I was way outta line..the last thing he said was, 'forgiven but not forgotten'...put me in my place very well. Wise words that apply here, IMHO.

[shovelhd]

Depends on the situation. I don't know how much time I spent chasing Leduc around courses in the 90's. He would just check out of a breakaway group whenever he felt like it.

David is a good example of why I believe ex-pros that get caught doping should not be allowed to race amateur races or coach amateur racers. Forever.

[BobC]

David is a good example of why I believe ex-pros that get caught doping should not be allowed to race amateur races or coach amateur racers. Forever.

From what I hear Leduc's ban is up. & Master Nats is in North Carolina this year.

My teammates & chased him around for years as well (While I had a young family, a full time job PLUS drilling in the navy reserves). I forget how many times I watched him roll away.

Two points:

1. He stole prize money from guys riding clean. How about paying that back?

2. He cheated FOR YEARS. Not a one time occurrence.

Go away. Don't come back, ban or not.

[numbskull]

Can you explain what you mean? Because I really can't understand how. Doping is cheating. The need to dope stems from an unbridled ambition to win at any cost, or the need to keep up with the former crowd.

I should clarify. We all need to make PRIVATE judgements about others to function in life, and those judgements are your own business

What I should have posted is that the need to PUBLICLY judge others is no different than the need to dope.

Public pronouncement of one's judgements is motivated most often for self-gain. By doing so I think we are trying to improve our self-esteem via external validation. The need for that validation drives the action.

When someone cheats to win a bike race (most obviously as an amateur, but also less directly as a professional) they do so seeking external validation of their self-esteem. The need for that validation drives the action.

In the professional situation it is somewhat more obtuse but similar. Success at a chosen trade (and related financial security) is a huge part of maintaining self-esteem. The need for that validation drives the action.

I'm not trying to pose as any shining moral example here..........we are all slave to our insecurities and all seek external validation of our worth (as obviously I'm doing now)..........I'm just offering another way to look at the situation and learn from it and our responses to it.

That said, when you're an asshole you're an asshole and you deserve what you get for being one. Too bad it applies to all of us sometimes.

[cash05458]

Interesting thread and lots of different perspectives. Always nice to see. I think folks make mistakes, simple...and then it depends on how they deal with those mistakes. Hell, I got a DUI years ago. Never did it again of course, but I would have hated if those I knew judged me forever. Should I have continued, sure...I would get that.

Years ago, mid 90's or so , I would think...while living in Belgie I used to ride with a bunch of fellows on a low level conti team...hardcore belgian guys who had been doing it since about 11 or 12 and this was their lives...wonderful guys actually... and a few made it to being fodder for the pack in the pros and at the tour...they would openly talk about what they were talking. The culture was SO widespread. And these were guys coming from total working class backgrounds...I could see the point when they thought everyone else was doing it (and were). I disagreed...but for these guys it was the factory or perhaps making it...and as all in that culture were doing the same, I found it hard to judge them.

Ethics is a tricky game we all have to work out in our own ways and there is something to the concept of forgiveness in the end.Not only in Cycling, but pretty much every walk of life...it is a pretty corrupt world.

[BobC]

I think some are trying to apply greater moral principles to a situation to most folks is a hobby or activity.

My point is you cheat in the activity/sport, you go away. Cycling, chess, whatever.

You can keep your house, family, job, friends. Don't care.

You can keep your bike. You can ride your bike all you want. Don't care.

You just cannot race. You abdicated that right when you cheated & got caught.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[shovelhd]

I also don't want them teaching others how to race. Advice on a group ride is one thing but coaching is another.

[cash05458]

"I also don't want them teaching others how to race. Advice on a group ride is one thing but coaching is another."

If they have moved on...and were a former Pro...and have genuinely given up on those past mistakes, may I ask why you think they should never coach...just curious?

[numbskull]

You just cannot race. You abdicated that right when you cheated & got caught.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Absolutely.

To be constructive, however, it strikes me that the public criticism would be better directed towards those who make the rules. Trying to effect moral change via public condemnation of cheaters may feel good and have some small positive social influence but it is probably not going to change much.

[soulspinner]

from what i hear leduc's ban is up. & master nats is in north carolina this year.

My teammates & chased him around for years as well (while i had a young family, a full time job plus drilling in the navy reserves). I forget how many times i watched him roll away.

Two points:

1. He stole prize money from guys riding clean. How about paying that back?

2. He cheated for years. Not a one time occurrence.

Go away. Don't come back, ban or not.

+1

[shovelhd]

"I also don't want them teaching others how to race. Advice on a group ride is one thing but coaching is another."

If they have moved on...and were a former Pro...and have genuinely given up on those past mistakes, may I ask why you think they should never coach...just curious?

Coaches, especially those coaching youth and the inexperienced, need to be of high moral character. Anyone that doped, lied, and got caught does not meet that expectation. Coaching involves a level of competition. You are not the competitor, your charge is, but your drive for them to succeed is the same as if it were you. The same temptations that the coach was not able to avoid may be equally difficult for the athlete to avoid. The risk is too great.

[Waldo]

An ex-doper has no position in my life. As far as I know, my wife, kids, parents, other relatives, and friends don't use PEDs. At least not for cycling.

[72gmc]

There are several dope-stained former pros I'd buy a beer for. I like a good story and I think I'd like them too.

Now people like Jamie Dimon, Angelo Mozilo, Jeff Skilling--I wouldn't shake their hands. I discriminate among cheaters and I'm OK with it.

[p nut]

I'm all about forgive & forget, but still irks me to see some of those dopers winning local races. Granted, they're probably clean, and obviously VERY talented, but still bothers me. Maybe it's just the image of seeing them on the podium again.

[Mzilliox]

on my back wheel. da da dummmmmm :bike:

[Dead Man]

on my back wheel. da da dummmmmm :bike:

I guess i'd let 'im lead me out to the sprint.. So long as he's got a different jersey 'n me

[Joxster]

The problem starts with the coach, they are the ones that influence the riders. As a first year pro I was told that 'assistance was available, but don't get caught on My shift' Things could have turned out different if my room mate wasn't clean and told me that if I had been offered a contract clean, then there is no need to dope. I know way too many current & ex pros that use, I don't think they should be allowed to coach because if the question arises then the coach will turn a blind eye

[CunegoFan]

I was recently involved in a discussion regarding an ex-pro who used to dope, but is now (no longer racing and) clean and involved in our sport in other non-racing ways.

Where do you stand on such an individual? He has issued statements and published works regretting his decisions during that time, but then again, haven't they all?

Forgive and forget?

Why don't you try talking to the him? It may give you a different perspective than the black and white, Nancy Reagan view expressed here.

I know a couple of ex-Postal riders pretty well. I like them. They are good guys. I don't hold anything against them because what they did to race in Europe has little relation to hobby racing in the U.S.

[pasadena]

I'm all about forgive & forget, but still irks me to see some of those dopers winning local races. Granted, they're probably clean, and obviously VERY talented, but still bothers me. Maybe it's just the image of seeing them on the podium again.

I'm not addressing you specifically, just made me think of this general sentiment that keeps coming up:
People apologizing for having some moral compass and conversely, people defending dopers as "good guys".

UCI pros and the whole doping culture has effectively trickled down and made it the problem it is now in the Depends-Geritol categories. Any pro cycling fan is way more an expert on doping than 99% of fans of other sports- and that's all from the Lance era.

So yeah, what these pros do and did does affect everyone else. The Socal Masters are racing like the pros of yesteryear- arrogantly doping, and see nothing wrong with it and making the clean riders feel like a-holes.

And yeah, on a personal level, you can still like someone that did bad things. No one is perfect. We are adults.
But be clear on what they did and the damage it causes. Hold them to the same standard you would a stranger that damaged the sport and other competitors.
You choose who you associate with, and why. That also says something about you, too.

Pushing all the clean guys out, doesn't that sound so familiar?
Just my opinion... that's why i'm happy if anyone local calls out this b.s., because it's total b.s.

[bikingshearer]

This is a sort of Devil's Advocate point meant to spark discussion, not to troll or cause a sh*t-storm. /disclaimer

Isn't a good idea to have some reformed dopers be among the coaching ranks? Including, and maybe especially, in the ranks of those coaching young riders? I would think these are folks who would be more adept at spotting the early warning signs of riders who are turning to the Dark Side, and who can speak from personal experience about the dangers, moral and physical, of doping.

Obviously, such folks would have to be chosen with care. For example, Lance would never qualify (assuming he wanted to), but David Millar very well might. Non to Richard Virenque, but perhaps oui to Bernard Thevenet. Twice-caught dopers need not apply. You get the idea.

I'm not sure exactly where I come down on this, but it seems to me it's worth some considered thought. So, any considered thoughts?

[pasadena]

From the viewpoint of juniors? Pretty hard to tell them cheating is bad when you have multi-million dollar endorsements, on the cover of magazines and then turn around and say, "don't do it kids, doping is bad."

Teach kids what to do, not what NOT to do.
Lead by example, focus on positive instructors and educate on life and sporting ethics. Those boring cliches ring true.
Those are the kinds of coaches juniors need. Do you really need a doper to tell you it's illegal or unethical?

Cycling needs good leadership on many levels or else you have 40-50 yr old dopers that think the world revolves around them...

Sometimes life choices lead to lifelong reprocussions. Juniors should learn that too...

It's hard to say. I certainly don't want to 'pick' who gets to do what in life. Doper or not. But if they succeeded on the back of doping, what makes them a good coach?