Retro riding fit, efficiency, etc.

[branflakes]

a few months back i decided this year i would stop saying i wanted to randonneur and actually do it. i'm not a racer, but have always enjoyed riding and pushing myself. the idea of overcoming both the physical and mental challenge appeals to my sadistic nature i guess.

so, a little while back i picked up a classic steel bike to use for the long distance rides - a 1986 raleigh grand prix. the bike checked most of the boxes and the price was absolutely right! it came as a 6sp with 700c wheels, friction downtube shifters, DiaCompe aero brake hoods, side pull brakes, Shimano A105 Golden Arrow componentry, and 531 main tubes. none of this is spectacular by any means, but i felt a very conservative approach to meeting my needs. i repacked all the bearings, replaced cables and housings, upgraded from 6sp to 7sp, and added a B17.

well, yesterday i put my first 100+ mi. ride on it. started with flat greenway for ~30mi., then moved to combination of road and a little greenway for the remainder. i will say the bike performed admirably for the duration. rode nicely and delivered me safely. beyond that, however, i have some issues.

after putting on the miles yesterday i have come to some conclusions:

while i appreciate the period correctness of 6-7sp, i find the gaps in cogs extremely inefficient. i rode a 13-28 with 52/40 and stayed in 40 pretty much the whole time. the low end gearing is drastically different when going 21-24-28. huge steps!
the old DiaCompe brake hoods are not very comfortable. very narrow and steep ergonomics.
braking power is not fantastic. certainly i could change out pads, but the cable pull of the hoods combined with the slow feel/response from the brakes is uninspiring.
lastly, but not least, i rode the final 65mi. in tremendous shoulder pain on my left side. i couldn't figure out why for awhile, but then began to realize the pain seemed to be exacerbated when reaching to change rear gears. for some reason the positioning required to reach the shifters caused a rotation in my left shoulder that it did not like (more sadistic than i'd like ;)).


so, that leaves me now looking at some options. do i (1.) switch to barcons and try again hoping no/less pain, (2.) swap brake hoods with a set of Cane Creek or Origin8s, (3.) upgrade the DiaCompe brakes themselves (i have some Mafac center pulls i want to install but their reach is too long for 700c), (4.) cold set the frame and install 10s wheel set, or (5.) scrap the idea of using this bike and start over again? first ride is 4/9, though i think riding my carbon road bike for the 200k would be fine...bigger concern is 300k+.

anyway, just thought i'd vent some and share the story. :) i was really excited to have a more "classic" styled bike, but these "features" are making my enjoyment a challenge! hope you guys had less painful rides this weekend!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/6f2f855347edb1418ba99031344d06b1.jpg

[Ralph]

You can upgrade...spread the rear etc.....as much as you want. It can be made modern....better braking and gearing. it is kinda nice to see an old bike used in that manner.

[rccardr]

Did you duplicate the fit measurements from your other, comfortable bike? If not, start there.

Do you regularly ride your other bikes 50-75 miles at a time? If not, this could simply be a matter of, as Eddy said, riding lots. If you're not used to riding a Brooks, the angle may not be right for you, either.

Braking can be improved somewhat with Kool Stop pads, but personally I prefer the wider hood of a Tektro lever and the improved braking of a double pivot caliper, like a matching Tektro or Shimano 105/600/Ultegra. DC levers and brakes can be easily improved upon, as almost anything more modern works better.

Bar cons will certainly work, but am having a hard time figuring out why shifting the left lever would hurt your shoulder. One of my arms is slightly longer than the other, and I find that slightly offsetting the stem in the direction of my shorter arm is more comfortable during long days in the saddle.

Yes, you can open the stays and use a 9/10 speed rear wheel if you really need closer ratios. RD will likely need to be replace, and those older ones don't like shifting into cogs smaller than a 13.

[ultraman6970]

One shoulder/arm pain can be symptom of the bike pulling to one side, body tries to compensate.

[branflakes]

One shoulder/arm pain can be symptom of the bike pulling to one side, body tries to compensate.

i do think that my rear triangle is askew. the rear wheel doesn't center under the brake bolt perfectly. the wheel is centered at the chainstays, but not perfectly at the seat stays (out 2-3mm). when i ride with no hands i have to lean right to keep it straight.

i was in less pain riding normally. when i had to shift the rear gears i would have to pivot downwards in order to reach the shifter. when doing that of course there are lots of other movements the body makes to maintain balance. for whatever reason the angle of change was not good for my non-shifting arm holding the bars to maintain balance.

my right shoulder had some discomfort, but about a tenth as much as the left one.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/b1bc31ad23c68591c7aa7f40d45ec342.jpg

Did you duplicate the fit measurements from your other, comfortable bike? If not, start there.

Do you regularly ride your other bikes 50-75 miles at a time? If not, this could simply be a matter of, as Eddy said, riding lots. If you're not used to riding a Brooks, the angle may not be right for you, either.

my normal riding routine is 30-50mi. i've done 100mi+ enough times to know what it should, and shouldn't, feel like. this pain is not normal!

the brooks is new and i used some shorter rides (5-30mi.) to adjust the angle accordingly.

i'm not looking to duplicate my normal road geometry exactly. i am seeking a little more upright position. there will obviously be some adjustment, but i didn't plan on it being painful. ;)

[benb]

Sounds like a lot of headaches to get this working.

Why would your carbon bike not be good for the distances you're talking? Does it not fit right or it's in a glamour/ego fit that is only good for short distances? If it actually fits right it would surely be better than this bike and wouldn't require all this extra work.

The work you would put into this bike would be better put into training time.

[doomridesout]

Randonneur riding doesn't need to be some reconstruction of the past. Riders on PBP regularly do the whole thing on modern carbon race rigs (and finish quicker than the historical reconstructionists). If you can get a bigger tire on your regular bike and a more upright fit with a stem swap, just go for that.

I find old-style handlebar and brake lever ergonomics dreadfully uncomfortable and that's not an uncommon sentiment.

[sg8357]

1986 is the dark ages, go back 35 years and you get working brakes and much nicer frames. No self respecting English club rider would be caught dead riding
a Raleigh.

[branflakes]

i think steel will be less harsh on extremely long rides. tubulars have opened up a new level of comfort for me on carbon frames, but not anywhere near as supple as steel still, not to mention issues of tire maintenance if/when necessary. for carbon i have a Time Instinct RX that may work, but about the biggest tire i am going to fit are 25s.

i wanted an older steel ride for purposes of some historic significance as well as offering braze-ons for fenders and/or racks. after a real test ride this weekend i am confident i would have saved many (,many) minutes with the efficiencies of modern shifting and gearing.

i may have to test the RX with 25s and deal with clip on fenders if the ride proves to be painless (other than expected exhaustion).

[Mark McM]

i think steel will be less harsh on extremely long rides. tubulars have opened up a new level of comfort for me on carbon frames, but not anywhere near as supple as steel still, not to mention issues of tire maintenance if/when necessary. for carbon i have a Time Instinct RX that may work, but about the biggest tire i am going to fit are 25s.

Why do believe that a steel frame will be less harsh? You can make stiff trusses out of steel, and soft springs out of carbon. These are just materials, and their individual material properties can be used in a variety of ways to produce structures of a variety of characteristics.

In terms of ride compliance, a rigid diamond frame is (regardless of material) is the wrong place to look. The geometry of this planer structure essentially guarantees that if it is flexible enough to provide meaningful vertical compliance, than it will be too flexible laterally/torsionally to handle well.

[rccardr]

The stay/wheel alignment does not look happy, and is confirmed by your having to lean to the right when riding hands off. I'd strip that baby down and have it aligned if possible. Or start over with something different that's straight.

I own more than a dozen bikes, none of them modern or carbon, all are either steel or aluminum. Any of them are comfortable for the kinds of long rides you're looking at, and they are regularly ridden that way.

So, bottom line is, your're right, this shouldn't be painful. Exhausting, exhilarating, yes, but not painful.

[Ken Robb]

Bar-Cons are a big improvement for me over downtube shifters. Old Suntour Power-Ratchets or Rivendells new Silver brand are marvelous. change your rings to 50-39 or 50-34 if possible. Go to a triple? These changes might let you avoid the biggest cogs on the cassette you have or swap for a cassette with closer ratios.

Swapping the Campy pads on my Nuovo Record brakes for salmon pads helped quite a bit but they still required a much firmer squeeze than dual pivots. Call it "easy to modulate". :-)

[ultraman6970]

OP, if the bike is pulling to one side would be good to take it to a shop (if you dont know how to do it) to have the guy to check the frame and the fork out. One of the two (or both) can be slight out of alligniment, if its like 2 mm I would not bother too much but when is a lot the bike starts pulling more than needed you know.

The other thing, always you can put a washer in the rear to make it up for the difference, the good of steel is that you can use those fixes.

[benb]

Other things that can make it pull..

Saddle is too high or some other issue causing assymetry in the rider. If my saddle is too high it feels like the bike wants to veer off once my hips shift to one side.

Hoods uneven - won't affect hands off but will cause a shoulder to get sore on a long ride. This seems silly but it's pretty easy to do. I've found a lot of modern handlebars with markings for placing the hoods do not have the markings even on both sides of the bar. (This seems to be common with cleat markings on shoes too!)

Crooked stem (but this is really easy to see)

[austex]

i do think that my rear triangle is askew. the rear wheel doesn't center under the brake bolt perfectly. the wheel is centered at the chainstays, but not perfectly at the seat stays (out 2-3mm). when i ride with no hands i have to lean right to keep it straight.

[...] ;)

Check rear wheel dish (or reverse wheel in frame to see if "offset" swaps to other side), adjust/true as indicated;

String test - tie a string to one rear dropout, run it around the head-tube to the other dropout, tie off taut and symmetrical to first tie. Measure from string to seat-tube, both sides should be same measure. Cold-set to adjust, use candle-sticks to assure dropouts parallel;

"Eyeball" head-tube parallel to seat-tube from front of bike (easier to see with tall head-tubes); twist usually means a visit to someone with a frame-table.

[philcycles]

Well, no offense to Raleigh because I've had more than a few, but I wouldn't choose a Grand Prix, even the upgraded Grand Prix, for this.
First, I'd get my position evaluated by some one who knows what he or she is doing like a frame builder. At the same time I'd perform some alignment checks on the frame. Needless to say, the Grand Prix wasn't at the top of the quality tree.
Only after this will you be able to understand what's happening.
Good luck. These checks can be difficult.

[branflakes]

thanks all for the responses. i think i am going to have the LBS take a look at the alignment for me. this is not a high dollar frame in any sense of the imagination, but i would hate to just waste it if the possibility exists of it getting tracked correctly.

i am pretty conscientious about measuring and tweaking fit. i am 99% confident my hoods are placed evenly, and have further confidence in my saddle height. there are definitely fit differences on this frame compared to more modern frames i've ridden. i normally ride a 55-56cm top tube with 100-110mm stem. this is a 55.5cm top tube with an 80mm stem and it definitely feels much tighter. i was thinking i would relax the geometry some with the shorter, but higher stem. i tried to raise the stem height to reduce the saddle-bar drop, but there isn't as much height as i was looking for. finding a neutral angle quill stem (read not -17) is somewhat of a challenge. ideally i would like maybe -6 at 100mm.

we'll see what happens. i have my eye on another stallion, but i need to find new homes for some of the current stable residents first.

[bikingshearer]

. . . so, that leaves me now looking at some options. do i (1.) switch to barcons and try again hoping no/less pain, (2.) swap brake hoods with a set of Cane Creek or Origin8s, (3.) upgrade the DiaCompe brakes themselves (i have some Mafac center pulls i want to install but their reach is too long for 700c), (4.) cold set the frame and install 10s wheel set, or (5.) scrap the idea of using this bike and start over again? first ride is 4/9, though i think riding my carbon road bike for the 200k would be fine...bigger concern is 300k+. . . .


My $.02 - and it's worth less than that:rolleyes:: (1) Yes. Or go with brifters. (2) Absolutely yes. (3) Very absolutely yes. (4) Yes, yes, yes. (5) No.

[acoffin]

Frame alignment and a small investment in new Tektro brake levers & calipers, and call it done. The new brakes are going to be a huge improvement in comfort and braking efficiency. I'm betting on the frame alignment being the pain culprit here.

Lot's of folks love bar ends, but personally I find down tube shifters more fun to use (granted they are not easy to use on rough terrain, but that's just one reason god created integrated shifting). Give them another chance before changing.

[numbskull]

I'll bet the shoulder pain comes from the shortened reach with excess drop (which would make you hunch)
You can easily fix your reach and drop issues with a tall stem from Nitto. http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/nitto-technomic-stem-tall-26-0-clamp.html
They are easy to find used as well.

[classtimesailer]

Do the string test a la Sheldon Brown and get it riding straight with a 2x4.

Keep the 6 speed. I spread my old bike and years later, wished that I hadn't.

Leave the DT shifters alone. (Where would you get indexed 6 speed Barcons?)

In the short term, you'll be happier with new Cane Creek or Tektro levers.

The shoulder pain could be a nerve thing from your rather new saddle.

I think the more miles you put on it, the more comfortable it will be. Both my long distance bikes now have slender old timey levers and I don't even think about my hands. Besides they look better than fatter-than-the-bars-modern levers.

The Rando thing is about keeping it simple. Your Raleigh is perfectly simple. Maybe some new Dia-Compe centerpulls so you can get a front rack, decaleur and a cool handlebar bag.

[cp43]

thanks all for the responses. i think i am going to have the LBS take a look at the alignment for me. this is not a high dollar frame in any sense of the imagination, but i would hate to just waste it if the possibility exists of it getting tracked correctly.

i am pretty conscientious about measuring and tweaking fit. i am 99% confident my hoods are placed evenly, and have further confidence in my saddle height. there are definitely fit differences on this frame compared to more modern frames i've ridden. i normally ride a 55-56cm top tube with 100-110mm stem. this is a 55.5cm top tube with an 80mm stem and it definitely feels much tighter. i was thinking i would relax the geometry some with the shorter, but higher stem. i tried to raise the stem height to reduce the saddle-bar drop, but there isn't as much height as i was looking for. finding a neutral angle quill stem (read not -17) is somewhat of a challenge. ideally i would like maybe -6 at 100mm.

we'll see what happens. i have my eye on another stallion, but i need to find new homes for some of the current stable residents first.


You can try this one: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/st4.htm

Not exactly what you're looking for, but it will give you some more height.