OT: Middle Age; How's it Lookin' and Is It What You Expected?

[fuzzalow]

I read most of the Op-Ed columnists in The NYTimes and both agree and disagree with the spectrum of views presented. I tend to like much of what David Brooks writes about perhaps due to his more conservative, albeit more conservative as relative to The NYTimes, postures but be that as it may.

Mr. Brooks more recent column The Middle-Age Surge (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/22/opinion/the-middle-age-surge.html?_r=0) addressed the options and possibilities on reaching middle age. I agree with his optimism in living but don't know if this is actually true or possible for many in today's world & economy. The world of middle age described in Mr. Brooks column is a very nice one indeed.

I have no doubt Mr. Brooks lives in his bubble as much as I do my own and we each do inside our own bubbles. And I try to keep an open mind and view for what others have and are doing so I can keep it real - I want to try and stay grounded. And to stay grounded I often do so through views and opinions of what I read here on this forum (which is a bubble all its own). But on this topic I thought I'd float the buoy.

I don't really have a question because there is no intent to pry. But I am interested in any comment. There are so many things and complexities in anybody getting to anywhere and to any station in life, it seems almost impossible to get anywhere at all. Parents who have kids as young adults embarking on adult lives will understand this.

I'll put myself on the hot seat and answer that I think things for the most part turned out OK. Honestly, in my bluster I like to think that I've earned it, and in some ways I have. But different decision trees with off-shoot branches of luck present themselves based on life decisions made - it can only be your own doing up to a point and after that I am thankful for the luck. But it ain't over 'till it's over and I am in no hurry to close the book on all that's to come what may.

HaHa, pardon on this topic - it's way out there.

[Mikej]

Everything is waaay more expensive vs my wage raises. And the world is going to hell in a handbag...

[rugbysecondrow]

This is apropos as I was talking with a friend last night about this. I am almost 40, younger and older than many, and probably smack dab in the middle of my life.

I am pretty damn happy with how things have developed, but it takes openness and work.

Some observations:

-finding the right spouse. This cannot be overstated or repeated enough, it is really important.

-appreciating the spouse you have. She won't be perfect, neither will I, but appreciation helps you focus on the positive, so much so that the negative floats to the background. It also helps you develop your relationship, view it as an evolving entity, not a fixed object FYI: 15 years of marriage. Probably stronger than earlier years.

-Develop a vision for your life, almost a vision statement. What is important to you? As decisions arise, reconcile them against your vision. It is easy to sort things more easily and feel comfortable with decisions if reconciled against a vision. Example: I have never taken or made a job change due to money. Ever. All of my jobs have been tied to work I want to do, new challenge or new life direction, and the money has worked itself out. I have turned down bigger money because it wasn't the right fit or job for me. I have always had "enough". It has helped me not regret decisions.

-I worked hard in my 20's, that helped me in my 30's. My brother, an ER physician, once observed that happier people in their 30's seemed to be people who worked harder in their 20's. Established their profession, went to graduate or professional school. Invested in themselves. The seeds sown then seem to germinate and be ready for harvest in their 30's. This might be anecdotal, but it made sense.

-Life can be very good if you have an appreciative view. View life as a blessing, and really appreciate the good in life, but also be prepared for challenges. Many people seem to get derailed when the fantasy of what they think life "should be" gets up ended. The problem isn't life as much as it is an mindset which doesn't allow for interjections of reality, change and appreciation.

-Be able to reevaluate and grow.

-Do not be afraid to pivot or make big changes. Life is too short to allow yourself to be stuck. I can't tell you the number of times I have said, " A year ago, I would have never predicted I would be here!", but man, I have always ended up in a better place. See the opportunities and be able to make changes. Example: We moved to North Carolina in 2015, quitting my job with the Feds and not having a new job in my new state. I found one very quickly, and it was a great opportunity, but one I would never had taken if I let fear trap me.

-Enjoy it. Show your enthusiasm for life. Let your kids, wife, and others be infected by your enjoyment for them and life. I might die tomorrow, I might be stricken by something terrible, something might happen to a family member. Be remembered for what you brought to the world, not what you sucked from it.

-Lastly, be an example for your kids. If you wouldn't want your daughter marrying a drunk asshole, then don't be one. If you wouldn't want your son working 70 hours a week and being away from his wife and kids, then make the change to set an example for him. If you want them to learn fitness, compassion, kindness, stewardship etc, etc...then do it. Show your spouse love, respect and appreciation, they will seek that out in their lives. I have become a better person knowing that I should provide these things for my kids, not stuff.

I might seem sappy, but I have a strong appreciation for things. Appreciation is a word not evoked often enough, but I think if more people had it, we would have a better society.

Cheers friends.

[numbskull]

Middle age is just another hill.

Pace yourself and stay humble, the hard stuff is still ahead.

[cdn_bacon]

Middle age is just another hill.

Pace yourself and stay humble, the hard stuff is still ahead.

well said.

[Waldo]

Have kids when you're young, so by the time you're middle-aged the only toddlers you're chasing are your kids' kids.

[Elefantino]

Indiana Jones said, "It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage."

Very true. Lots of mileage on this frame, with some different components. But having just last week reached the age that was terminal for George Harrison, I may have to start taking things seriously.

[Blown Reek]

Have kids when you're young, so by the time you're middle-aged the only toddlers you're chasing are your kids' kids.

Worst advice ever.

[Chris]

Worst advice ever.

I wouldn't go that far. I think there are advantages to both. Just depends on the personality. We started when I was 30 which is kind of in the middle. Kids will gonish when I am 51 or so. I have partners who have started their second families at that age.

[seanile]

Worst advice ever.

+1. when you have kids, your life is no longer your own. you begin living to the benefit of your young'ns until they're adults. don't make that sacrifice until you're ready.

[azrider]

-finding the right spouse. This cannot be overstated or repeated enough, it is really important.

-appreciating the spouse you have.

-happier people in their 30's seemed to be people who worked harder in their 20's. Established their profession, went to graduate or professional school. Invested in themselves. The seeds sown then seem to germinate and be ready for harvest in their 30's. This might be anecdotal, but it made sense.

-Be able to reevaluate and grow.

-Enjoy it.

-Lastly, be an example for your kids..

Some really, really good stuff here.

Have kids when you're young, so by the time you're middle-aged the only toddlers you're chasing are your kids' kids.

I 'personally' would absolutely disagree

[54ny77]

drink enough. but not too much.

[malcolm]

56 and happy

Don't be afraid to make changes. Appreciate the people in your life and let them know it frequently.

Never forget to be amazed by how wonderful it is to be alive and the things around you. Make a conscious effort not to be jaded. Teach kids/younger people about the things that are meaningful to you.

[Tickdoc]

Other than the fact that my nose and ear hair seem to be growing at alarming rates, I am enjoying the Middle Ages.

Party on.:banana:

[moose8]

Interesting article - thanks for the link. I'm 40 so smack-dab into entering middle age I guess. I would say that student debt is really changing the picture for a lot of people though and makes it pretty hard to get a leg up and get the foundation he speaks of, especially in expensive housing markets. I was fortunate only to have graduate debt that I paid off relatively quickly but if I had to service undergrad debt it would have been tough to go to grad school and tough to pay it all off and tough to start saving to build for the future.

[Dead Man]

+1. when you have kids, your life is no longer your own. you begin living to the benefit of your young'ns until they're adults. don't make that sacrifice until you're ready.

When are you ever going to be "ready" for kids?

Do you have any?

I have 6.

I am really, really glad we got that out of the way young, and now that I'm old enough to afford to do cool ����, they're growing up and I'm not pinned to them anymore.

[Schmed]

I never had to wear glasses, now I need readers, and that stinks.

I'm not terribly flexible anymore.

I do, however, seem to be about as strong (sometimes stronger?) on the bike, and that's very good!

I get called "sir" more often. Normally, that doesn't bother me, but when it's a cute 20-something girl, it hits close to home.

More than 2 beers, and I feel it the next day.

I used to be able to skip one meal and drop a few lbs. Not anymore.

Yes - that nose/ear hair thing is some twisted and cruel trick.

My brain, however, is still about 24. Not sure if that's good, or do I have some sort of disability? I don't care. I like being goofy and telling dad jokes as often as possible.

I have thought, a number of times, that if I get clobbered by a cement mixer tomorrow, I won't have any significant regrets. And that's a good feeling to have (not getting hit by the cement mixer - the lack of regrets!)

I hope my kids see our enthusiasm for life and trying new things, and that those give them memories for life.

[schwa86]

Really spot on! I would only add that one thing that has helped me in recent years (I'm 50) is "try to think of all the reasons to say 'yes' instead of saying 'no'" Which has somewhat coincided with "anytime anyone asks you to go see live music, say yes...

This is apropos as I was talking with a friend last night about this. I am almost 40, younger and older than many, and probably smack dab in the middle of my life.

I am pretty damn happy with how things have developed, but it takes openness and work.

Some observations:

-finding the right spouse. This cannot be overstated or repeated enough, it is really important.

-appreciating the spouse you have. She won't be perfect, neither will I, but appreciation helps you focus on the positive, so much so that the negative floats to the background. It also helps you develop your relationship, view it as an evolving entity, not a fixed object FYI: 15 years of marriage. Probably stronger than earlier years.

-Develop a vision for your life, almost a vision statement. What is important to you? As decisions arise, reconcile them against your vision. It is easy to sort things more easily and feel comfortable with decisions if reconciled against a vision. Example: I have never taken or made a job change due to money. Ever. All of my jobs have been tied to work I want to do, new challenge or new life direction, and the money has worked itself out. I have turned down bigger money because it wasn't the right fit or job for me. I have always had "enough". It has helped me not regret decisions.

-I worked hard in my 20's, that helped me in my 30's. My brother, an ER physician, once observed that happier people in their 30's seemed to be people who worked harder in their 20's. Established their profession, went to graduate or professional school. Invested in themselves. The seeds sown then seem to germinate and be ready for harvest in their 30's. This might be anecdotal, but it made sense.

-Life can be very good if you have an appreciative view. View life as a blessing, and really appreciate the good in life, but also be prepared for challenges. Many people seem to get derailed when the fantasy of what they think life "should be" gets up ended. The problem isn't life as much as it is an mindset which doesn't allow for interjections of reality, change and appreciation.

-Be able to reevaluate and grow.

-Do not be afraid to pivot or make big changes. Life is too short to allow yourself to be stuck. I can't tell you the number of times I have said, " A year ago, I would have never predicted I would be here!", but man, I have always ended up in a better place. See the opportunities and be able to make changes. Example: We moved to North Carolina in 2015, quitting my job with the Feds and not having a new job in my new state. I found one very quickly, and it was a great opportunity, but one I would never had taken if I let fear trap me.

-Enjoy it. Show your enthusiasm for life. Let your kids, wife, and others be infected by your enjoyment for them and life. I might die tomorrow, I might be stricken by something terrible, something might happen to a family member. Be remembered for what you brought to the world, not what you sucked from it.

-Lastly, be an example for your kids. If you wouldn't want your daughter marrying a drunk asshole, then don't be one. If you wouldn't want your son working 70 hours a week and being away from his wife and kids, then make the change to set an example for him. If you want them to learn fitness, compassion, kindness, stewardship etc, etc...then do it. Show your spouse love, respect and appreciation, they will seek that out in their lives. I have become a better person knowing that I should provide these things for my kids, not stuff.

I might seem sappy, but I have a strong appreciation for things. Appreciation is a word not evoked often enough, but I think if more people had it, we would have a better society.

Cheers friends.

[Anarchist]

Other than the fact that my nose and ear hair seem to be growing at alarming rates, I am enjoying the Middle Ages.

Party on.:banana:

Damned eyebrows!

I need an eyebrow trimmer ..............

[ofcounsel]

I love where I'm at in my mid-40's. I'm fatter than I'd ever thought I'd be, but beyond that, I feel like I've won the gold medal for living life.

One thing that has been on my mind lately is death. I can't really stop thinking about it. Virtually every day, I hear of someone dying that just floors me. And then I start to think: "Geez, Gary Shandling was only 66, and now he's dead. Might I only have 20 years left on this planet? Maybe even less?" That saddens me.

One positive outcome of this whole "I might die soon" mentality is that its caused me to actually look at my finances for the first time since I got married, 23 years ago. My wife has always been responsible for managing our finances, and she's done a great job. But I started seeing areas where I was just entirely too wasteful. My wife loves me, and pretty much is cool with doing whatever I want, such as buying new carbon wheels I don't need, but really want. So over the past few months, I've taken control of the budgets and I'm now making myself accountable for my expenditures. I'm working to pay down debts and set up more savings for my seven year-old son. Kind of like a money diet.

That feels good. Maybe it's a bit of knowing I can't control when death comes my way, but knowing that at least I'll be financially prepared for it.

[Schmed]

Really spot on! I would only add that one thing that has helped me in recent years (I'm 50) is "try to think of all the reasons to say 'yes' instead of saying 'no'" Which has somewhat coincided with "anytime anyone asks you to go see live music, say yes...

That's been my mantra for the last 4 years, and speaking from experience.... when you say "no" too often, you are missing out on a lot of cool things.

[livingminimal]

One thing that has been on my mind lately is death. I can't really stop thinking about it. Virtually every day, I hear of someone dying that just floors me. And then I start to think: "Geez, Gary Shandling was only 66, and now he's dead. Might I only have 20 years left on this planet? Maybe even less?" That saddens me.

The only reason death is a topic that I occasionally consider is because I have two young children, 7 and 4 over the next two months, and I am 39 and lost a parent two years ago and the idea of doing that to them before they're "ready" terrifies me.

Other than that, I'm half-way through life expectancy and there is truly nothing at all I can do about it except enjoy life the best I can.

I sort of feel like just the ability to have this conversation is a luxury much of the world, and all those who are sick or tragedy-stricken earlier than I, cannot have.

So basically I am appreciative and intolerant of the whining that accompanies most of these conversations.

[velomonkey]

I can't stand reading Brooks, but that was OK - though he got it from Barbara Hagerty. Anyway, at my age I am in in the prime of my midlife crisis or lack thereof. Here is how I try to conduct my life

Don't count other people's money - you. will. never. be. happy.

Purchase memories, not things - hate to say it, but it's time velomonkey looked at buying a Hamsten tour NOT a Hampsten frame.

Be the voice for the less fortunate, but don't take yourself seriously. Drive's me crazy when people take only themselves seriously.

Listen more than talk. You will learn and will feel better for it.

Your kids will be the biggest reflection on the above. I'm an idiot, but I I am a proud idiot and the proof that this was worth something is in my kids.

Other than that, let's go for that ride Fuzz and drink some good bourbon. My local package store has Bulleit 10 year on sale for $31 and it's like the best thing EVER.

[Dead Man]

Is the 10 signifcantly better than the regular red label?? I get the regular stuff for $26/5th, and it's damn OK for the money.

1792 is probably my new favorite bourbon, though.. and it's cheap (relative) at $34/5th. comparable to $50 bottles, IMNSHO

[fuzzalow]

Some observations:

For reasons of brevity, not reposting of entire quote. But noted and thanks rugbysecondrow for the thoughtfulness of your post in reply.

Middle age is just another hill.

Pace yourself and stay humble, the hard stuff is still ahead.

I dunno, there is nuthin' in life that is just another hill. There are times when it is critical and crucial to see the break when it forms and when it happens. And sometimes if you don't give it all you've got to either bridge or to stay in the break, you get the bus. I think every stage (get it?) in life is hard and going easy is usually not a choice most people have the luxury to do anymore.

And frankly, why would anybody wanna go about approaching a career & life at half-speed? Stuff is never gonna just fall into your lap. In the modern economy, I do not think the aphorism "Slow and steady wins the race" is relevant and applicable any longer.

Have kids when you're young, so by the time you're middle-aged the only toddlers you're chasing are your kids' kids.

Yeah, I know you're pullin' my leg. But sayin' that is more crazy than funny.

I see this kinda thing first hand, in my extended family with my nephew. Yeah every family has got one.

This kid grew up in Merrick Long Island (a town with median income of $93k and hometown to Lindsay Lohan :no:) but my ex-brother in law was an idiot and messed this kid up. And in fairness, my sister in law was not strong enough intellectually & emotionally to counteract this. Nephew's working on kid number 6 or 7 by now among a few past girlfriends and his current live-in. Everyone of those kids he had is f__ked! I don't like the eff word in print but it reflects my anger at how irresponsible my imbecile nephew is. None of these kids is gonna amount to anything 'cos their stunted growth & maturity parents like playing house and play acting as parents - they have no idea what they are really up against and what they have condemned their kids to. The both of them were only good at perpetuating their lowest rung of the socio-economic ladder into a next generation.

You can see a lot in life. When you get to middle age you're hopefully smart enough to know what comes next. What I know now but didn't know when I was younger was the gravity and lasting effect of what lives on from the screwups and mistakes made in life. And it is sad, tragic and a waste when people do stupid things involving kids.

[OtayBW]

I've had a mid-life crisis at age 40, 50, and 60. Hey - you get to buy cool stuff!
Still waiting on the trophy wife, however......

Started thinking about mortality a bit more at 60, especially since I have now outlived the age of my father's death by 10 years.
I value the things I have, appreciate my place in life, have the usual struggles, and of course, I reflect on what I would have done differently were I given the chance.

Often I just sit on the cushion and listen to the sound of the wind in the trees.

[Burnette]

The author, David Brooks, well, I’m no fan. But the subject matter certainly pertains to my current place in space and time, so I’ll play. I take exception to Brook’s view in bold and give my take on each.
First off, according to Brooks; (midlife crisis) “There’s only one problem with the cliché. It isn’t true”. I find that yes, for some it is very real and lasts a very long time. I’ve seen countless co-workers buy Harleys to drive about twenty five mile round trips to a BBQ chicken joint and back home once a week.
I know several people who play local softball tourneys as if they were Pro Baseball players in the last year of their contracts, chasing those old “Glory Days”.
I’ve seen my fair share of long term marriages fail when one partner or both check out the neighbor’s lawn to see if it’s greener.
Men of some age are getting face lifts, calf implants and body piercings.

You can say “midlife crisis” isn’t a crisis, I say it depends on how you experience it. You can re-label it or give it nuance if it gives you the solace that the condition isn’t so simple. You can say that some people, as they reach a certain age, attempt to reach back to re-live youthful pleasure or that they reach forward and try to live today the things that they could not when they were young. If you cause stress and/or pain unto yourself or others in doing either of the aforementioned reaches, it is a crisis.

“Uncle Fred left Myrtle, got that back tattoo and is living with that girl that worked at Wal-Mart in a trailer near the river with the five kids” is having a rebirth if you ask him. If you ask his brother he is in full blown crisis. Depends on who is narrating the story
.
“Lincoln, for example, found in midlife that everything so far had prepared him to preserve the Union and end slavery”. Wow, what a twist on fact to meet a premise. History was thrust upon Lincoln and his reactions to it does not bare out a person that was prepared for it, but one who had to adapt on the fly, by act by seat of his pants. Sometimes good, sometimes not so.

I’ll bundle “gained wisdom and maturity” in middle age and say this. It depends. Sure, people learn not to put their hand on a hot stove eye or to say out loud those things they that they know other people find repugnant. But they still eagerly wander into risky circumstances and double down on ignorant thought by finding support groups of like minded individuals to now make such thought OK. (read talk radio, the internet). Anybody know of a loud mouth bore from college that always made bad decisions who is now older, wiser but still a loud mouth bore that makes bad choices?

I think midlife is just another page of the same story. I believe that the body ages and if you’re lucky, you still strive to better yourself and not redo the bad stuff. But there is plenty of evidence that we are still now who we were then and we double down on not changing the deep stuff by rationalizing it and finding support for it and just change the veneer with clothes, hair dye and *fast cars.

P.S.
*At some point I’m going to buy a Porsche Caymen and drive it fast and ride your bumper if you clog up the fast lane. The only difference now from when I was younger is that when I pass you now, I won’t give you the finger. I learned that it isn’t nice. But I’m still going to bark third going around.

[ofcounsel]

The only reason death is a topic that I occasionally consider is because I have two young children, 7 and 4 over the next two months, and I am 39 and lost a parent two years ago and the idea of doing that to them before they're "ready" terrifies me.

Other than that, I'm half-way through life expectancy and there is truly nothing at all I can do about it except enjoy life the best I can.

I sort of feel like just the ability to have this conversation is a luxury much of the world, and all those who are sick or tragedy-stricken earlier than I, cannot have.

So basically I am appreciative and intolerant of the whining that accompanies most of these conversations.

Likewise, I worry mostly about being around for my 7 year old. I lost my mom to cancer when I was 5 years old. Growing up without her was tough, and her death set into motion a whole host of small tradgedies for my family. By the grace of powers greater than myself, I survived and eventually thrived. But I still worry.

[Chris]

One thing that has been on my mind lately is death. I can't really stop thinking about it. Virtually every day, I hear of someone dying that just floors me. And then I start to think: "Geez, Gary Shandling was only 66, and now he's dead. Might I only have 20 years left on this planet? Maybe even less?" That saddens me.


I don't look forward to things for that reason. When they come, I am just that much closer to death...

[Chris]

I can't stand reading Brooks, but that was OK - though he got it from Barbara Hagerty. Anyway, at my age I am in in the prime of my midlife crisis or lack thereof. Here is how I try to conduct my life

Don't count other people's money - you. will. never. be. happy.

Purchase memories, not things - hate to say it, but it's time velomonkey looked at buying a Hamsten tour NOT a Hampsten frame.

Be the voice for the less fortunate, but don't take yourself seriously. Drive's me crazy when people take only themselves seriously.

Listen more than talk. You will learn and will feel better for it.

Your kids will be the biggest reflection on the above. I'm an idiot, but I I am a proud idiot and the proof that this was worth something is in my kids.

Other than that, let's go for that ride Fuzz and drink some good bourbon. My local package store has Bulleit 10 year on sale for $31 and it's like the best thing EVER.

I've disagreed with you on ALOT, but not on a single point here. Well said.

[93legendti]

Middle age is just another hill.

Pace yourself and stay humble, the hard stuff is still ahead.



I am mid 50's.

My Dad at the same age had a bad knee, bad shoulder, lost most of his teeth, had shrapnel in his nose and had hearing loss from WWII, was taking care of an aged Mother, was balding with his remaining hair quite grey. He couldn't beat us anymore in basketball, racquetball or skating and couldn't handle my fastball. He also had bad frostbite in his left arm, I suspect from a 1945 Belgian Winter.

He worked before we got up and after we went to bed, but was there for every single event we asked him to come to. He had his best work years from ages 50-60.

In contrast, I feel like I am in my 30's, have a full head of dark hair and my numerous injuries healed much better than they should have.

My kids are younger at the same stage of our lives, so maybe that is a factor.

This is a roundabout way of saying I don't think the term applies anymore as far as it implies.

Maybe because my Dad had done so much more and seen more. 2 years in WWII European combat would do it. Double Purple Heart. Literally shoveling coal during college breaks to make money. Sons who were constantly fighting..


I'm in my 50's. Most people think I am in my 40's. I am not middle aged.

I expected to be married with children, to be able to give my family wonderful experiences, have interesting hobbies, make my parents proud and to be memorable.

So far so good.

[numbskull]

You can see a lot in life. When you get to middle age you're hopefully smart enough to know what comes next..

Yup........and when you get to old age you realize how ridiculous that assumption was.

[john903]

This is a great post and will just add to the already wise comments. I like being in the 50 year old era. I also liked my 30's working hard and playing hard and I always found myself looking up the the older generation they just seemed to have it all together. Well now that I am in my 50's I feel comfortable where I am at. I have a great marriage, a great job, and life is fun. I also get to mentor others at work, help out others cycling, and working at the Boy's and Girls club is very fulfilling. It is fun to be more focused on others then myself I think that is something I have learned from getting older it is not about ME but about what can I do for others and then I get joy out of helping others, it's fun
I am looking forward to seeing what the 60 era has in store for me.
Have a great day, oh and don't forget to laugh and have fun.

[Ken Robb]

Middle Age??? I can't remember that far back. I had lunch today with Dave Thompson who is passing through San Diego on his way from Baja to Spokane and his memory of Middle Age is no better than mine. :banana::beer:

[Kirk007]

In my 20s I was happy, passionate and optimistic that humans were moving beyond an age of hate, intolerance, greed and myopia; that we would renew and restore and protect all of life not just that which was familiar and convenient to us.

In my 30s I was working 80 hours a week, making a lot of money, driving a Porsche, finding happiness in my young son and wife, and not worried about much at all. I had crossed into my material stage.

In my 40s as my son started to ask questions about life and social justice, and the years and moments were disproportionately allocated between office and home, I took stock, left what had once been the practice of law but was now the business of maximizing partner income, and returned to the path of passionate pursuit of a better world, at an 80% pay cut.

In my 50s I have had a wonderful journey the past 15 years, but I am looking at staying on this path for another fifteen years or more while my friends who continued in private practice with their 80 hour weeks and all that goes with it are easing into retirement. Some have lived their life like a race, going hard to get to the finish line, and now hoping to enjoy their winnings. Mine has been more of a journey that meanders on a less traveled path that continues both by necessity and desire. And periodically I question whether I took the right path as I find myself less and less optimistic that homo sapiens will persist as a species; has the pursuit of a better world been the right path or has it just been a Sisyphus like ordeal that endures when the other path could have lead to a narcissistic life on the beach for the upcoming years? I think I know the answer, but other times I look at the other side and wonder.

Is this what I expected? Truth be told I had no expectations and didn't really have a destination in mind, rather I went with what I felt was the right thing to do at every fork in the road, guided by gut more than analytics. Older wiser? Maybe, maybe not.

These are some of the things that I think true now that I didn't realize when I was younger - honor and integrity are more important than wealth. Doing the right thing is often the harder choice. Live life on your terms rather than following the herd. Don't judge. Be kind, and patient particularly of those who you expect the most from - your spouse, your children. Give up the false notion that you are in control. Recognize and accept that everyone, most of all your children are their own person living their lives, not living for you. You are less important, and less influential than you think. If you are lucky, your state of mind is something that you can choose, can influence, can make what you want it to be, but not everyone is so lucky, so be slow to criticize and judge those who you don't know. Finally, life is fleeting, I have lost friends and former colleagues - here one day, full of life and gone the next, and the frequency is increasing and will continue to do so.

Enjoy your journey and don't worry so much about where you might be in ten years - you have the present and there's no guarantee of a future. So go take that bike ride.

[cat6]

When are you ever going to be "ready" for kids?

Do you have any?

I have 6.

I am really, really glad we got that out of the way young, and now that I'm old enough to afford to do cool ����, they're growing up and I'm not pinned to them anymore.

You have 6 kids and you are old enough to do cool ����? I call bull���� unless your kids are eating chicken and rice for dinner every night and will never go on vacation until they are able to pay-their-own-way. I will leave the google searching to you but the $ of raising a child is quite high. How many share rooms? Do you and your wife both work?

[ripvanrando]

We did not have our only son until we were in our 40's and as he approaches his college years, my reflection of the middle age years are mostly filled with smiles and collections of amazing memories. When I look at my son, I wonder how much better the world would be if more kids turned out as good. I guess we got lucky.

[Neil]

I'm 40 in May, therefore I have been thinking about this subject.

In terms of keeping score I'm not doing badly - I'm head of a global team, working for a company that I genuinely enjoy being a part of. I earn good money, live in a nice flat, if life was measured in number of toys then I'd get a high score.

However, I always thought I'd have kids by now, maybe a couple of them.

I also don't really want to be living in London at this point, my heart is really in the country, but I'm not.

My girlfriend of 9 years doesn't want kids, and her job is in London.

[oldpotatoe]

+1. when you have kids, your life is no longer your own. you begin living to the benefit of your young'ns until they're adults. don't make that sacrifice until you're ready.

You can say that twice, twice.

AND after, they are always and still, 'dependent independents', even if they aren't. AND if the 'decision', mutual with partner, is you don't have kids, well that's OK too.

About death. The 20 years in the USN seemed to last a long time. I retired at 42..retired with a small 'r'. These last 23 years, I'm now 65, have gone by amazingly fast. To think the next 20, if I am lucky, are the last 20..that bothers me. I'd like to see my grand daughters(age 3 and 5) find a partner as good as the one I have had for the last 44 years. Not sure I will.

"getting old ain't for sissies"...

[paredown]

Someone on the CR list was commenting on David Moulton's book, 'I Don't suffer for my Art'--full of his own aphorisms. As he says,"Who invited all these old people to my High School Reunion?"

It's good enough that I'm going to steal it--but I think it also highlights something my father used to say--a lot of what we think of as aging is a state of mind--a narrowing of the mind where we no longer see (or seek) new opportunities for experience and learning. Some folks really do seem to be old before their time.

I think we are living in a wonderful time to be aging--better medical care, most people don't smoke, better information about diet, lots of opportunity for exercise and adventures etc. There is still the genetic lottery, but even that code is being cracked.

We have a neighbor who after a career as a school teacher became a published poet--she is 80+ and still takes her kayak up into Harriman to paddle around by herself. The electrician on our Habitat crew is over 80, still playing with a full deck and not afraid of ladders. My one fairly recent long bike tour, we had two women who had turned 80--they did fine, although they did go a little slower, and were very cautious around gravel. There was a post on the CR list of some bikes for sale a while ago--the gentleman that was selling of his collection was in his 90s, and 'no longer felt comfortable riding on the road!'

Maintain health, keep active, keep thinking , keep learning and keep riding.

[paredown]

...
These are some of the things that I think true now that I didn't realize when I was younger - honor and integrity are more important than wealth. Doing the right thing is often the harder choice. Live life on your terms rather than following the herd. Don't judge. Be kind, and patient particularly of those who you expect the most from - your spouse, your children. Give up the false notion that you are in control. Recognize and accept that everyone, most of all your children are their own person living their lives, not living for you. You are less important, and less influential than you think. If you are lucky, your state of mind is something that you can choose, can influence, can make what you want it to be, but not everyone is so lucky, so be slow to criticize and judge those who you don't know. Finally, life is fleeting, I have lost friends and former colleagues - here one day, full of life and gone the next, and the frequency is increasing and will continue to do so.

Enjoy your journey and don't worry so much about where you might be in ten years - you have the present and there's no guarantee of a future. So go take that bike ride.
Words to live by--sounds like you have been paying attention.:beer:

[Britishbane]

This is apropos as I was talking with a friend last night about this. I am almost 40, younger and older than many, and probably smack dab in the middle of my life.

SNIP

I really enjoyed reading this (from my perspective at age 31). Right on.

[Ray]

Lot of good thoughts here. I'll add a few. For me, becoming middle age didn't have squat to do with my age - I still felt like a kid when I turned 40 and thought I'd dodged a bullet. It has to do with my kid's age - when they hit that point in the teen years where you're not cool anymore and you have to be the a$$hole more than once in a while, THAT'S when I started feeling middle aged - I guess I was closer to mid-40s. That's when you start seeing your parents in yourself, you find yourself saying and doing things you never thought you'd say or do, and realize you aren't a kid anymore. Not that it's a BAD thing, not at all, but it's when it starts to feel real. Having to be the adult in the room when the room really NEEDS an adult in it. Fortunately my wife was a wonderful partner through all of that.

The good news is that phase passes, your kids (if you did a good job AND you're lucky!) grow into really amazing young adults and you get to feel young again. Except by then your body is starting to show real signs of age. I'm closing hard on 57 and I'll never weigh 165 pounds again, not for any happy reason anyway, I have a subconscious map of every public rest-room burned into my brain now because I have to pee a lot. And I don't care that much about fitness beyond the level of where I feel good. I stay fit enough to feel good and I can do what I want (as long as I don't want to ride for 5 hours anymore, which I don't), but I'm not fit by any definition I had 10 years ago. But I'm fine with that - it just feels like something I should mention in this forum where fitness is big. I was talking to my chiropractor recently about how good I feel now that I'm semi fat and lazy and he confirmed for me that the people he sees with the biggest problems are those still trying to light up the athletic fields as they get older. They have all sorts of aches and pains and even some real physical problems - I have very damn few except each Spring when I do start to ramp things up again each year. I stay active but I'm not looking for any personal records anymore...

Even though my feeling middle aged had to do with when my kids hit a particular threshold, I'm really glad we had them early. They were more or less out of the house by the time I was 50 and they're overwhelmingly the greatest source of satisfaction I'll ever have in my life. I was a good conscientious professional and provided well for my family, but I was never ambitious enough to set the world on fire professionally. Family was and is the whole story for me - everything else was to support that. Being a Dad was and is the best and most important job I ever had. And now that we have time to live our own lives again, it's soooo much better having two kids out there who I'm enormously proud of, whose company I enjoy immensely, and who may even produce a grandchild or two down the road for us to dote on and spoil rotten. To me, nothing else matters near as much, although I know not everyone feels that way.

And it helps that we've been enormously fortunate - we did well for ourselves and got a bit of an unexpected mid-life inheritance that has allowed us to retire early and buy the gift of time. We have to live more frugally than we used to or than most of our friends do, but I'll take more time than money any day of the week. We don't have a lot, but we have enough, which IS a lot by definition. For those who are still trying to scratch out a living and don't have anything put away for retirement, I've gotta thing that middle age must be extremely anxiety ridden and difficult. And that's the vast majority of the world, so I can't count my own blessings enough. Except that I'm too busy enjoying them to spend too much time counting them...

-Ray

[jlwdm]

You have 6 kids and you are old enough to do cool ����? I call bull���� unless your kids are eating chicken and rice for dinner every night and will never go on vacation until they are able to pay-their-own-way. I will leave the google searching to you but the $ of raising a child is quite high. How many share rooms? Do you and your wife both work?

Why so negative? We live in a country where there are opportunities every where. There is no reason Dead Man cannot being doing the things he lists.

Jeff

[flydhest]

My two bits. Am 45. Waited longer than most to have kids, I was 40 for my first and the second came two years later. Had to start over again in two different dimensions. I first married at 29 and it lasted 8 years. That was painful. I grew and became a better person, but would not wish that experience on anyone. That said, for anyone going through it, you can rebuild and have a family. No kids from the first marriage likely made that easier.

I just started a new career a month ago. After a couple years as a professor and then 17 years working for the federal government, I am now in the private sector. Never too old.

I am constantly learning and am getting better at looking back for lessons, not regret. My kids are my barometer. If I am just paying attention to them when I am with them (and nothing else) then I am doing well.

[54ny77]

mmmm, chicken and rice.

https://potsoup.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/arroz-con-pollo.jpg

p.s. don't be rude. i know a few folks with 3+ kids and they live very frugally. it's a struggle, of course, but they manage and are happy. happier than many i know with multiples of income in comparison and possessions.

You have 6 kids and you are old enough to do cool ����? I call bull���� unless your kids are eating chicken and rice for dinner every night and will never go on vacation until they are able to pay-their-own-way. I will leave the google searching to you but the $ of raising a child is quite high. How many share rooms? Do you and your wife both work?

[malcolm]

The author, David Brooks, well, I’m no fan. But the subject matter certainly pertains to my current place in space and time, so I’ll play. I take exception to Brook’s view in bold and give my take on each.
First off, according to Brooks; (midlife crisis) “There’s only one problem with the cliché. It isn’t true”. I find that yes, for some it is very real and lasts a very long time. I’ve seen countless co-workers buy Harleys to drive about twenty five mile round trips to a BBQ chicken joint and back home once a week.
I know several people who play local softball tourneys as if they were Pro Baseball players in the last year of their contracts, chasing those old “Glory Days”.
I’ve seen my fair share of long term marriages fail when one partner or both check out the neighbor’s lawn to see if it’s greener.
Men of some age are getting face lifts, calf implants and body piercings.

You can say “midlife crisis” isn’t a crisis, I say it depends on how you experience it. You can re-label it or give it nuance if it gives you the solace that the condition isn’t so simple. You can say that some people, as they reach a certain age, attempt to reach back to re-live youthful pleasure or that they reach forward and try to live today the things that they could not when they were young. If you cause stress and/or pain unto yourself or others in doing either of the aforementioned reaches, it is a crisis.

“Uncle Fred left Myrtle, got that back tattoo and is living with that girl that worked at Wal-Mart in a trailer near the river with the five kids” is having a rebirth if you ask him. If you ask his brother he is in full blown crisis. Depends on who is narrating the story
.
“Lincoln, for example, found in midlife that everything so far had prepared him to preserve the Union and end slavery”. Wow, what a twist on fact to meet a premise. History was thrust upon Lincoln and his reactions to it does not bare out a person that was prepared for it, but one who had to adapt on the fly, by act by seat of his pants. Sometimes good, sometimes not so.

I’ll bundle “gained wisdom and maturity” in middle age and say this. It depends. Sure, people learn not to put their hand on a hot stove eye or to say out loud those things they that they know other people find repugnant. But they still eagerly wander into risky circumstances and double down on ignorant thought by finding support groups of like minded individuals to now make such thought OK. (read talk radio, the internet). Anybody know of a loud mouth bore from college that always made bad decisions who is now older, wiser but still a loud mouth bore that makes bad choices?

I think midlife is just another page of the same story. I believe that the body ages and if you’re lucky, you still strive to better yourself and not redo the bad stuff. But there is plenty of evidence that we are still now who we were then and we double down on not changing the deep stuff by rationalizing it and finding support for it and just change the veneer with clothes, hair dye and *fast cars.

P.S.
*At some point I’m going to buy a Porsche Caymen and drive it fast and ride your bumper if you clog up the fast lane. The only difference now from when I was younger is that when I pass you now, I won’t give you the finger. I learned that it isn’t nice. But I’m still going to bark third going around.

I wouldn't disagree but I would add "mid life crisis" of course has a negative connotation and maybe deservedly so, but there is a difference in that and still doing things and accepting challenges.
I don't know that playing softball vigorously is necessarily reliving your glory days. It can be but not necessarily. If it's what you love then do and do it with vigor irrespective of age.
I'm 56 as I stated in a prior post and I'm trying to arrange my schedule to ride the great divide next year solo on my mtn bike. Mid life crisis or living life and finding challenges. I guess it depends on the definition. My wife and I are both professionals and likely worked/work too much, but we try to show our relatively young for our age kids (13,15) that you always need to get up get out and do something.

I was an ER doc for years and had a moment in my early 40s where I realized I was seeing guys my age die on a fairly regular basis. I became acutely aware of middle age and older people and the difference in vitality. I routinely see guys in their mid 40s that look and act old. I truly believe that for most of us not burdened with dread disease or unfortunate genetics it's a state of mind. If you start thinking and acting old you'll become that way.
I also routinely ask older folks 80s and above that are clearly healthy what they do. The answers are all over the place but being active is the one constant and you'll never hear I sit on the couch and watch TV all day.

It's fine to be responsible but you don't have to be old.

[fuzzalow]

Other than that, let's go for that ride Fuzz and drink some good bourbon. My local package store has Bulleit 10 year on sale for $31 and it's like the best thing EVER.

Roger that. HaHa! Bourbon, won't gotta twist my arm to go for any of that - I'll pick your brain on what's good & maybe buy a bottle to take home to the little burg I call home.

Yup........and when you get to old age you realize how ridiculous that assumption was.

No, I disagree. Life isn't quite that random and people aren't that hard to figure out. But you seem to think you know something, in your old age, so maybe you can be a little less pithy in your retort and warn a youngster like me off of my false assumption.

If I misinterpreted your original comment I'd apologize. But I would never advise anybody to pace themselves in life - Nobody gets to coast through life and if they do they are either luckier than me or they get the results they deserve. I'll concede this might be an misunderstanding of attitude & approach twisted up around our semantics.

You can say that twice, twice.

AND after, they are always and still, 'dependent independents', even if they aren't. AND if the 'decision', mutual with partner, is you don't have kids, well that's OK too.

Agree. Having kids is forever. You will never stop being a parent until the last breath. In life I would desire nothing different from that and look forward to the day that what we can do to help is no longer needed but still appreciated. Not there yet.

Being a Dad was and is the best and most important job I ever had. And now that we have time to live our own lives again, it's soooo much better having two kids out there who I'm enormously proud of, whose company I enjoy immensely, and who may even produce a grandchild or two down the road for us to dote on and spoil rotten. To me, nothing else matters near as much, although I know not everyone feels that way.

I agree but I'd like to add a nuance to that. I like being a Dad too but it is not a bad or negligent thing to say that it is equally paramount with other things in life, like a career. I truly believe that anybody can do as many multiple roles well as they have the drive and the desire to achieve.

I didn't want to take on a role as Dad that, to me, seemed of both an entirely immersive experience and also a cliche. I saw a lot of this when I was raising my family in the suburbs - Dads acting like Dads because it fit the mold of how each Dad thought they should be and act as a Dad. And between the ball cap, the SUV, the Dad jeans, the rah-rah banter and the faux authoritarianism, it seemed as play acting to a caricature. I was just never gonna succumb to playing that kinda role that struck me as contrived rather than as authentic & sincere. Everybody puts on a public face and there's nothing wrong with that but I'd also see it as a lotta showboating. Hey, it was an affluent suburb and some people seem to feel they wanted other people to know things about themselves that others probably didn't care about.

I guess that's part of what we are talkin' about in this thread. Getting to middle age less as an age issue and more as a life experience issue for the things that we have managed to figure out in living.

[Climb01742]

Perhaps the most important thing I've realized is this:

'If (blank), then (blank)' just doesn't hold. Stuff like, 'If you work hard, then you'll reap the benefits.' 'If you treat people well, then they'll treat you well in return.' The if/then combos go on and on.

Life is more complex than that. Causality doesn't hold as often as we'd like.

And that's ok. We plan our life based a lot of if/then. If I go to a good college, then I'll get a good job. If I do my job well, then I'll be rewarded. If I invest in a good house in a good neighborhood, then its value will go up.

But life just isn't like that. Very few 'if's' come with a guaranteed 'then'. That's ok.

Our fate isn't in our hands as much as we are sometimes taught. I've come to believe in karma, and part of the lesson of karma is that through lifetimes we carry with us our choices and actions, and we don't know when life will ask for our karmic debts to be paid. Then something happens we didn't expect or plan on, and our first reaction is, hey, that's not fair, I did my 'if' and this isn't the 'then' I expected. But it is the 'then' we earned somewhere back in time.

So I'm trying to not live my life based on if/then. I can't control the 'then'. All I can control is what I do, and who knows what the outcome will be? And that's good I think. Doing things based on what we think the outcome will be, the benefit or reward we'll reap will be, isn't always good. I'm trying to do what's right or best or kind just because of that...and not worry about getting a 'then' out of it. It's hard. I'm pretty hard-wired into the if/then mindset, but I'm trying.

I'll end my ramblings with two things.

1. A shrink once told me something that with time has been revealed as wisdom. You can change your life by changing just a few letters. Take the word 'should' and change it to 'could'. As in, 'This should happen' or 'They should do this' or 'I should get this' to 'This could happen/could do this/could get this'.

2. We're a leaf on a stream. But we built the stream with our lifetimes.

[flydhest]

Climb, largely agree. I try to shift my "if/then" to "if I treat people well, then I will have treated people well" and have the result be the reward, if that makes sense. I can't make people treat me well, but I can do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing.

[Ray]

I agree but I'd like to add a nuance to that. I like being a Dad too but it is not a bad or negligent thing to say that it is equally paramount with other things in life, like a career. I truly believe that anybody can do as many multiple roles well as they have the drive and the desire to achieve.

I didn't want to take on a role as Dad that, to me, seemed of both an entirely immersive experience and also a cliche. I saw a lot of this when I was raising my family in the suburbs - Dads acting like Dads because it fit the mold of how each Dad thought they should be and act as a Dad. And between the ball cap, the SUV, the Dad jeans, the rah-rah banter and the faux authoritarianism, it seemed as play acting to a caricature. I was just never gonna succumb to playing that kinda role that struck me as contrived rather than as authentic & sincere. Everybody puts on a public face and there's nothing wrong with that but I'd also see it as a lotta showboating. Hey, it was an affluent suburb and some people seem to feel they wanted other people to know things about themselves that others probably didn't care about.

I guess that's part of what we are talkin' about in this thread. Getting to middle age less as an age issue and more as a life experience issue for the things that we have managed to figure out in living.

Right, on the parent thing, I was only talking about what mattered most to me, not necessarily anyone else. And I wouldn't even BEGIN to suggest to anyone else how they SHOULD parent - I suspect there are a lot of ways that work and a lot that don't. We felt our way, figured it out as we went, and ended up with it working for us. But our way might not have worked for many others.

Because it's gotta work for both you AND your kids, with the kid's needs mostly taking primacy, but you can't ignore your own either. We did a lot of stuff in very non-traditional ways and a lot of stuff in pretty traditional ways and our kids turned out better than I could have ever hoped and waaaaay better than I occasionally feared. Not that their stories are fully written yet, but they're in pretty great shape for being in their late 20s and already pretty well along the road to fulfilling lives - I couldn't ask for more than that.

I take a certain amount of credit for that but recognize that there's a LOT of luck involved. We spent years also trying to raise a nephew of my wife's that didn't go nearly as well - he was damaged when we got him and probably not much less damaged when he left. And the process was very hard on all of us, including our kids - his cousins - which I was always deeply conflicted about. We did the best we could but when we finally realized we weren't doing either him or any of us any good, I have to admit I was glad to send him back to from whence he came... He's still alive and sort of functioning at 26, which is more than I'd have bet on, but he's not thriving and I don't really expect he ever will. So some of it is just the genetic lottery...

-Ray

[Climb01742]

Climb, largely agree. I try to shift my "if/then" to "if I treat people well, then I will have treated people well" and have the result be the reward, if that makes sense. I can't make people treat me well, but I can do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing.

Fly, yep, that's it in a nutshell. Trying to do things for the intrinsic worth of the action vs what the action may get us.

[Dead Man]

You have 6 kids and you are old enough to do cool ����? I call bull���� unless your kids are eating chicken and rice for dinner every night and will never go on vacation until they are able to pay-their-own-way. I will leave the google searching to you but the $ of raising a child is quite high. How many share rooms? Do you and your wife both work?

Woah, dude. You got some feelings of inadequacy going on? Not quite where you thought you'd be by now? Hey it's cool... I can relate.

Wife does not work, yes all the kids share rooms (and always will, even when we get our "big house" in the next 3-5 years), wife and kids just got back from a week vacation (I stayed home and partied), and yes- we eat tons of chicken and rice, prepared deliciously by my chef-quality wife on her high-end appliances and cookware. I race bikes and climb mountains. My kids all ride and my two oldest will be racing soon. My two oldest are also rock and alpine climbing now, and are boyscouts.

And my wife is pretty good lookin, and fit. 6 kids!

I hate to lay it all out like that, like I've got something to prove... but you did "call bull����."

Check us out:

Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009997989318)
Mrs. Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/my5boysmomma)

All it takes is some ambition, a little luck, adequately applied smarts, and above all else - perseverance. I own a construction company... I probably "work" about 20 hours a week. If I ever got serious, and was willing to give up some of my hobbies, I'd have our "big house" and luxury cars in no time - but man... I just value my kid/bike/mountain time more than that ����. So we have a smaller (for our family) but still nice house, drive semi-crappy cars... but we aren't incredibly superficial people and don't really care. All our friends are driving nice new cars and already have their "big houses," but they can't ever do ���� - too busy working!

Gotta find your own way in this world.

[Ken Robb]

Woah, dude. You got some feelings of inadequacy going on? Not quite where you thought you'd be by now? Hey it's cool... I can relate.

Wife does not work, yes all the kids share rooms (and always will, even when we get our "big house" in the next 3-5 years), wife and kids just got back from a week vacation (I stayed home and partied), and yes- we eat tons of chicken and rice, prepared deliciously by my chef-quality wife on her high-end appliances and cookware. I race bikes and climb mountains. My kids all ride and my two oldest will be racing soon. My two oldest are also rock and alpine climbing now, and are boyscouts.

And my wife is pretty good lookin, and fit. 6 kids!

I hate to lay it all out like that, like I've got something to prove... but you did "call bull����."

Check us out:

Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009997989318)
Mrs. Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/my5boysmomma)

All it takes is some ambition, a little luck, adequately applied smarts, and above all else - perseverance. I own a construction company... I probably "work" about 20 hours a week. If I ever got serious, and was willing to give up some of my hobbies, I'd have our "big house" and luxury cars in no time - but man... I just value my kid/bike/mountain time more than that ����. So we have a smaller (for our family) but still nice house, drive semi-crappy cars... but we aren't incredibly superficial people and don't really care. All our friends are driving nice new cars and already have their "big houses," but they can't ever do ���� - too busy working!

Gotta find your own way in this world.
I think looking at your Facebook pages might make a lot of single people run out and get married and have some kids ASAP. Great family!:beer:

[AngryScientist]

You have 6 kids and you are old enough to do cool ����? I call bull���� unless your kids are eating chicken and rice for dinner every night and will never go on vacation until they are able to pay-their-own-way. I will leave the google searching to you but the $ of raising a child is quite high. How many share rooms? Do you and your wife both work?

i must chime in that this is probably the most ignorant comment i've read in a while. you're implying that the guy who actually has the children should do a "google search" to educate himself on how much kids cost. actually laughing out loud about that one. he's living that life right now, but you think google knows better??

[carpediemracing]

"I'm 40 but I feel like I'm 20. Well, until I hung out with some 20 year olds, and that's when I realized that I'm 40."

I think of myself as maybe 32. Not 29, not 30, but not 35. I'm nowhere near any of those ages.

I think the "new middle age" is different, and vastly more rewarding at some personal level, than the "old middle age".

In the old days (I'm thinking of my dad) he felt a duty to raise a family and care for his wife. That was it. When we were all married (4 kids total) and my mom had died of cancer, he flat out told us, "My wife is dead, my kids are married. I've done my duty. I'm ready to die." This was a little less than 10 years ago.

I did some things early on. Managed/bought a business. Bought a house. Filed bankruptcy. Other things I didn't do, like buy a new car (until I was 35), or take out a car loan (45), etc.

I didn't get married until after 40. Junior was born when I was 44 (he's 4 now).

I think that it's maybe not optimal - I'll be getting on when he's in high school, and I hope I don't die before he gets to become some level of mature adult - but I think that the earlier me would have been a pretty poor dad.

On the other hand there's something to be said for the old way.

My dad, at my age, had 4 kids, youngest one was 6, oldest (me) was 16. He was never unemployed after his first real job as a chemical engineer, and he only worked for two companies in his life. He makes more money annually now than I ever did, and he hasn't worked for 12 years.

[mg2ride]

Life and being me is great. Getting old sucks. F being wiser. I'll take my dumb young self any day of the week.

[carpediemracing]

That "sir" thing - using that term is a tip for young women to push away those older men who are too friendly.

[mg2ride]

Have kids when you're young, so by the time you're middle-aged the only toddlers you're chasing are your kids' kids.

I agree 100%. Having kids is the only thing that saves most of us from being self center A-holes. The longer you wait the less you will change.

A wonderful life for a 30 year old childless person pales in comparison the struggles of a parent.

[AngryScientist]

I am thankful for the luck. .

IMO, luck plays a huge and major role in the equation. Again, in my view - the one big ticket item, that is probably most critical in the happiness equation is health, and luck dictates what genes we get, pure and simple. you can do everything right, and eat healthy and live clean, but in the end, who get's cancer or some other debilitating condition is a roll of the dice. I think each of us has had our lives touched by someone who passed before their time, and that's the biggest factor to me.

[Force]

I like your style, man. That last line says it all.

Originally Posted by Dead Man
All it takes is some ambition, a little luck, adequately applied smarts, and above all else - perseverance. I own a construction company... I probably "work" about 20 hours a week. If I ever got serious, and was willing to give up some of my hobbies, I'd have our "big house" and luxury cars in no time - but man... I just value my kid/bike/mountain time more than that ����. So we have a smaller (for our family) but still nice house, drive semi-crappy cars... but we aren't incredibly superficial people and don't really care. All our friends are driving nice new cars and already have their "big houses," but they can't ever do ���� - too busy working!

Gotta find your own way in this world.[/QUOTE]

[malcolm]

Woah, dude. You got some feelings of inadequacy going on? Not quite where you thought you'd be by now? Hey it's cool... I can relate.

Wife does not work, yes all the kids share rooms (and always will, even when we get our "big house" in the next 3-5 years), wife and kids just got back from a week vacation (I stayed home and partied), and yes- we eat tons of chicken and rice, prepared deliciously by my chef-quality wife on her high-end appliances and cookware. I race bikes and climb mountains. My kids all ride and my two oldest will be racing soon. My two oldest are also rock and alpine climbing now, and are boyscouts.

And my wife is pretty good lookin, and fit. 6 kids!

I hate to lay it all out like that, like I've got something to prove... but you did "call bull����."

Check us out:

Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009997989318)
Mrs. Dead Man (https://www.facebook.com/my5boysmomma)

All it takes is some ambition, a little luck, adequately applied smarts, and above all else - perseverance. I own a construction company... I probably "work" about 20 hours a week. If I ever got serious, and was willing to give up some of my hobbies, I'd have our "big house" and luxury cars in no time - but man... I just value my kid/bike/mountain time more than that ����. So we have a smaller (for our family) but still nice house, drive semi-crappy cars... but we aren't incredibly superficial people and don't really care. All our friends are driving nice new cars and already have their "big houses," but they can't ever do ���� - too busy working!

Gotta find your own way in this world.

And you find time to hang out here. I'm impressed.

Dude ignore that crap. I'd bet your happier now than anyone that would post that drivel. good on you

[velomonkey]

Woah, dude. You got some feelings of inadequacy going on? Not quite where you thought you'd be by now? Hey it's cool... I can relate.


I grew up in a family with 6 kids - not a normal family per se, but it was normal to me - a few years after my father died mom remarried a great guy with 4 kids two of whom where adopted and half black and half white - my sister is only a month younger than me.

Aint nothing like showing up to 5th grade with a mixed race sibling and saying "yea, that's my sister."

Oh we ate chicken and rice and other things and went on vacation - only two of us had to share a room - I did duty for a few years. Good on you, Dead Man.

[cat6]

I'm the oldest of 6 and could probably write a very boring book detailing the frugality, inconvenience and hardship I experienced in my situation, some of which I actually appreciate some of which I resent.

DeadMan I haven't gone through your links but it sounds like you've got it all worked out. I don't assume that everyone with a ton of kids is struggling but you made it sound like the-thing-to-do as if it were easy to support such a large family, maybe for you it actually is.

[Ti Designs]

I've been told that lots of things will happen, I've been told I can't continue to do the things I've been doing. I just don't listen - works for me!!!

[malcolm]

I'm the oldest of 6 and could probably write a very boring book detailing the frugality, inconvenience and hardship I experienced in my situation, some of which I actually appreciate some of which I resent.

DeadMan I haven't gone through your links but it sounds like you've got it all worked out. I don't assume that everyone with a ton of kids is struggling but you made it sound like the-thing-to-do as if it were easy to support such a large family, maybe for you it actually is.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I had one sister and could probably write a book as well but it would read as fiction. Not related to the number of sibs but lack of money and resources. Lots of folks had/have tough times, number of kids aside. I wouldn't recommend that number of kids to anyone for numerous reasons, but I know everyone isn't me nor to they share my perspective. The one thing I do agree with is kids are expensive and a commitment. Make sure you really want to before you do it.

[milkbaby]

I'm mid forties and to be honest, I've never had much cause to think about being middle aged. It is what it is, so I don't have any angst about being of a certain age. Too busy doing my thing. :banana:

[beeatnik]

All it takes is some ambition, a little luck, adequately applied smarts, and above all else - perseverance. I own a construction company... I probably "work" about 20 hours a week. If I ever got serious, and was willing to give up some of my hobbies, I'd have our "big house" and luxury cars in no time - but man... I just value my kid/bike/mountain time more than that ����. So we have a smaller (for our family) but still nice house, drive semi-crappy cars... but we aren't incredibly superficial people and don't really care. All our friends are driving nice new cars and already have their "big houses," but they can't ever do ���� - too busy working!

Gotta find your own way in this world.

Dead Man, I like your It's Easier to Run a Roofing Company in Oregan than California Style.

Question: Are your crews exclusively American born?

[Dead Man]

Dead Man, I like your It's Easier to Run a Roofing Company in Oregan than California Style.

Question: Are your crews exclusively American born?

Kind of an odd way to put it.. I'm not exclusive of foreign-born talent, but they need to be legal. Either naturalized, or with work visas. But I rarely ever get hispanics even applying, legal or not, because I require a strong command of the English language, and don't hire crews - my crews are hand-picked. But I've had foreign-born guys working for me before. One of my PMs was El Salvadoran, married to an American... so totally legal. I recently had a Ukrainian laborer - legal visa, citizenship process started. Just had his first kid, born on American soil. But the cliche pack-o-illegals... no, you don't find that on my sites.

On the other hand, I also drug-test and background-check... so I don't get too many white/non-hispanic applicants either. In other words, I have a hell of a time with labor.

[Climb01742]

IMO, luck plays a huge and major role in the equation. Again, in my view - the one big ticket item, that is probably most critical in the happiness equation is health, and luck dictates what genes we get, pure and simple. you can do everything right, and eat healthy and live clean, but in the end, who get's cancer or some other debilitating condition is a roll of the dice. I think each of us has had our lives touched by someone who passed before their time, and that's the biggest factor to me.

This is a philosophical question (maybe spiritual), not meant argumentatively:

What if there is no luck? Not good luck or bad luck, no 'luck' at all. Instead it's karma we earned?

If we philosophically accept luck, doesn't it take away some of the responsibility of our actions; actions of both merit and demerit? But if we rule out the existence of luck, and instead look at all that happens to us as a product of our actions and choices, doesn't that put us on the hook for our lives? And might that not be a good thing? Again, I'm not being argumentative, but rather pointing out that, whether we realize it or not, how we see life reflects choices and beliefs, rather than what may be reality. We think we're seeing life 'as it is', when perhaps we're really seeing a learned belief system.

Life changes pretty fundamentally if we believe in luck or if we believe in karma. I'm not claiming to know which is 'true', but it's interesting to question if how we see 'life' is accurate or a reflection of a philosophy.

[fuzzalow]

Having kids is the only thing that saves most of us from being self center A-holes. The longer you wait the less you will change.

HaHa! I gotta laugh and in all humor I will disagree. You sound like you've never been at large functions like school plays or talent shows where you are forced to mix and mingle with other parents. Truly, you will see and experience all types of kids and parents.

IMO having kids never stopped any parent from being a self-centered A-hole if they weren't already self-centered A-holes to begin with. Because you know how kids become self-centered A-holes? They learned it from their self-centered A-hole parents. And that entire clan is perfectly content because they never see themselves as self-centered A-holes. It must be nice to live that way but I'd say it sucks for everybody around them. Oh well, stress less and avoid people like this if you can.

IMO, luck plays a huge and major role in the equation. Again, in my view - the one big ticket item, that is probably most critical in the happiness equation is health, and luck dictates what genes we get, pure and simple.

Yes agree. But IMO the equal major component to this that you can control is your choice of spouse. Get that right and half the life battle is won because there is nothing two people can't do living as a true embodiment of one.

I wouldn't recommend that number of kids to anyone for numerous reasons, but I know everyone isn't me nor to they share my perspective. The one thing I do agree with is kids are expensive and a commitment.

Yeah I agree, the demands of the modern world and the demands and requirements therein in raising & educating kids make large families to me incomprehensible. I don't have the guts to take on something like that and do justice to them, my spouse and to me. Kids today need more resources and parental guidance than ever before. Good luck to those with big families.

[93legendti]

This is a philosophical question (maybe spiritual), not meant argumentatively:

What if there is no luck? Not good luck or bad luck, no 'luck' at all. Instead it's karma we earned?

If we philosophically accept luck, doesn't it take away some of the responsibility of our actions; actions of both merit and demerit? But if we rule out the existence of luck, and instead look at all that happens to us as a product of our actions and choices, doesn't that put us on the hook for our lives? And might that not be a good thing? Again, I'm not being argumentative, but rather pointing out that, whether we realize it or not, how we see life reflects choices and beliefs, rather than what may be reality. We think we're seeing life 'as it is', when perhaps we're really seeing a learned belief system.

Life changes pretty fundamentally if we believe in luck or if we believe in karma. I'm not claiming to know which is 'true', but it's interesting to question if how we see 'life' is accurate or a reflection of a philosophy.

I've always liked the definition of luck as when preparation meets opportunity.

[numbskull]

Here you go, Fuzz. This is brilliant.


These are some of the things that I think true now that I didn't realize when I was younger - honor and integrity are more important than wealth. Doing the right thing is often the harder choice. Live life on your terms rather than following the herd. Don't judge. Be kind, and patient particularly of those who you expect the most from - your spouse, your children. Give up the false notion that you are in control. Recognize and accept that everyone, most of all your children are their own person living their lives, not living for you. You are less important, and less influential than you think. If you are lucky, your state of mind is something that you can choose, can influence, can make what you want it to be, but not everyone is so lucky, so be slow to criticize and judge those who you don't know. Finally, life is fleeting, I have lost friends and former colleagues - here one day, full of life and gone the next, and the frequency is increasing and will continue to do so.

Enjoy your journey and don't worry so much about where you might be in ten years - you have the present and there's no guarantee of a future. So go take that bike ride.

"You are less important and less influential than you think". Get that tattooed on the back of one hand.

"Give up the false notion that you are in control". Put that on your other hand.

And here is a third one worth putting on your forehead.

....... I think that is something I have learned from getting older it is not about ME but about what can I do for others,.........

You see Fuzz, the reality is that it is not about you, you most certainly are not in control, and things will be just fine over the long term without you. Life is, therefore, (to use the bike race metaphor you eluded to earlier) not about winning a race, but about being part of the race itself. Just as the Tour de France is not about who wins. That ultimately makes no difference. Rather it is about all who take part, the contenders, the supporting riders, the coaches, the mechanics, the drivers, the policemen, the organizers, the reporters, the fans,.....even the mountains, roads, and countryside it all winds through. Without them as a group the race doesn't exist, but no single participant alone is necessary.

Until middle age it is hard to see all this. Your perspective is too short, your focus too inward. You are at the front of the race, generating huge watts, fighting for control, trying to win. Middle age is about realizing you are not going to win........or rather that you are already winning just by being part of the whole thing and helping everyone else. And at that point you will feel free, unburdened. It becomes alright to draft when you want or need to, and pull from the front when you feel you can. Sure there are still hills to climb, descents to master, and mechanicals to overcome in order to stay in it as long as you can, to give the race as much as you are able. And even after that you can still pull over, unclip, and watch it go by in passive enjoyment......a part of it until it all fades from sight....... and you are left only with a smile.

Have fun.

[Dead Man]

I'm the oldest of 6 and could probably write a very boring book detailing the frugality, inconvenience and hardship I experienced in my situation, some of which I actually appreciate some of which I resent.

DeadMan I haven't gone through your links but it sounds like you've got it all worked out. I don't assume that everyone with a ton of kids is struggling but you made it sound like the-thing-to-do as if it were easy to support such a large family, maybe for you it actually is.

Well let's straighten this out.... I'm not recommending anyone have 6 kids. If you're the right person for 6 kids, you already know it and don't need any internet advice. Most are not.

My recommendation is to consider that you'll never "be ready" for kids, and it might be best to get it over sooner than later. In my situation, having them young is working - wonderfully.

But as I said... everyone gotta find their own way.

[Ray]

This is a philosophical question (maybe spiritual), not meant argumentatively:

What if there is no luck? Not good luck or bad luck, no 'luck' at all. Instead it's karma we earned?

If we philosophically accept luck, doesn't it take away some of the responsibility of our actions; actions of both merit and demerit? But if we rule out the existence of luck, and instead look at all that happens to us as a product of our actions and choices, doesn't that put us on the hook for our lives? And might that not be a good thing? Again, I'm not being argumentative, but rather pointing out that, whether we realize it or not, how we see life reflects choices and beliefs, rather than what may be reality. We think we're seeing life 'as it is', when perhaps we're really seeing a learned belief system.

Life changes pretty fundamentally if we believe in luck or if we believe in karma. I'm not claiming to know which is 'true', but it's interesting to question if how we see 'life' is accurate or a reflection of a philosophy.

To a certain extent, you make your own luck as you go through life - so you can call that karma or perseverance (to make sure you're ready to take advantage of the luck when it shows up), or you can call it whatever.

But being born into a middle class or better situation in the US in the 1950's as opposed to Cambodia around the same time or sub-Saharan Africa in the age of AIDS or Iraq in the early 2000's - that's ALL luck. For that to be karma you have to be heavily into reincarnation too because there's nothing the baby being born in that situation has done to either deserve or influence the good or bad luck that comes with those accidents of birth...

Being born white in the wealthiest nation in the history of the earth at it's economic peak (on the spoils of having won WWII) to a reasonably comfortable family situation is the stroke of good luck that's kept on giving for me. I'm thankful for it every day. I could have just as easily popped out in China just before the revolution or in Nagasaki in 1943 - things wouldn't have worked out nearly as well, no matter how good my karma or how doggedly determined my DNA helped make me...

-Ray

[Climb01742]

For that to be karma you have to be heavily into reincarnation too

Yep. Karma and reincarnation go hand in hand. Karma is the box score of thousands of lifetimes.

But the point of my luck post wasn't to argue for karma/reincarnation/buddhism, or argue against luck. My point was to highlight how as we go through life our viewpoints change.

In our 20s, we see life one way. In our 30s, another. 40s, 50s, 60s others. At some point, with enough experience, we ask ourselves: Have I seen life as it really is? What have I gotten right? What have I gotten wrong?

My 2 cents is: I think most of us, if asked, would say we see life as it is. We're realists, we're pragmatists, we call it as it is. Yet we don't. We see life through our philosophy of life. We all have a philosophy, we just don't realize it's a philosophy. We think it's 'reality'. But I don't think it is. It's an interpretation of reality.

An analogy: Newtonian physics describes the 'real' world. Einstein's theory of relativity describes the 'real' world. Quantum mechanics describes the 'real' world. Yet they're all radically different. And an even bigger yet is...the 'real' world of what happens at the subatomic level hasn't changed in 300 years, or a thousand years, or since the big bang. But we keep coming up with theories that purport to describe reality. Physicists can't even say with certainty that energy is a wave or a particle.

That's all we have in our lives, too. Theories. We go through our lives living based on which theory of 'life' we're looking through. And at some point we ask ourselves, have I chosen the right theory, the right way to look at life?

Saying 'I've been lucky' isn't a statement of fact. It's saying I believe in the theory of luck. And that's ok...as long as we realize that luck may not describe reality at all. It's just one theory that many of us have bought into.

Again, I'm not arguing for or against one theory vs another. Heck, buddhism is a theory too. But part of what I like about it is, is that it admits it's a theory. It's a finger pointing toward the moon. It isn't the moon. With age may come the question...during my life, have been focused on the finger pointing at the moon or the moon itself?

[OtayBW]

Again, I'm not arguing for or against one theory vs another. Heck, buddhism is a theory too. But part of what I like about it is, is that it admits it's a theory. It's a finger pointing toward the moon. It isn't the moon. With age may come the question...during my life, have been focused on the finger pointing at the moon or the moon itself?I would offer that in Buddhism, there is no 'luck', no 'theory', no finger, no moon - and no 'Buddhism'. And yet, there is something there that is not theory, entirely beyond the words and thinking.

'Finger and moon' is just a metaphor to illustrate the distinction between the 'chatter' and this 'something'.

[Ray]

Yep. Karma and reincarnation go hand in hand. Karma is the box score of thousands of lifetimes.

But the point of my luck post wasn't to argue for karma/reincarnation/buddhism, or argue against luck. My point was to highlight how as we go through life our viewpoints change.

In our 20s, we see life one way. In our 30s, another. 40s, 50s, 60s others. At some point, with enough experience, we ask ourselves: Have I seen life as it really is? What have I gotten right? What have I gotten wrong?

My 2 cents is: I think most of us, if asked, would say we see life as it is. We're realists, we're pragmatists, we call it as it is. Yet we don't. We see life through our philosophy of life. We all have a philosophy, we just don't realize it's a philosophy. We think it's 'reality'. But I don't think it is. It's an interpretation of reality.

An analogy: Newtonian physics describes the 'real' world. Einstein's theory of relativity describes the 'real' world. Quantum mechanics describes the 'real' world. Yet they're all radically different. And an even bigger yet is...the 'real' world of what happens at the subatomic level hasn't changed in 300 years, or a thousand years, or since the big bang. But we keep coming up with theories that purport to describe reality. Physicists can't even say with certainty that energy is a wave or a particle.

That's all we have in our lives, too. Theories. We go through our lives living based on which theory of 'life' we're looking through. And at some point we ask ourselves, have I chosen the right theory, the right way to look at life?

Saying 'I've been lucky' isn't a statement of fact. It's saying I believe in the theory of luck. And that's ok...as long as we realize that luck may not describe reality at all. It's just one theory that many of us have bought into.

Again, I'm not arguing for or against one theory vs another. Heck, buddhism is a theory too. But part of what I like about it is, is that it admits it's a theory. It's a finger pointing toward the moon. It isn't the moon. With age may come the question...during my life, have been focused on the finger pointing at the moon or the moon itself?

Going deep Climb! I agree we see things through our own filters and our filters change over time. A radical example - at my first Grateful Dead show, Garcia was playing a beautiful slow lyrical solo in the midst of a sad song - I saw purple teardrops dripping from the strings and splashing on the stage. Were they real? Were they imagined? My filters that night included psychedelics as you've probably ascertained - does that in any way change the reality? I know what I perceived, it was very real to me, and it matters not whether anyone else saw it the same way...

Reality's highly personal interpretation is what leads me to being a hard core, aggressive agnostic. There are things I don't believe I can possibly know or understand - they're just so vast. So rather than believe a highly specific set of stories that other men made up about these things (which I consider highly arrogant), I revel in the fact that I cannot and DO NOT know. This is not a wishy-washy can't make up my mind agnosticism - it's a very determined, conscious, and deliberate version of agnosticism. To the extent I believe any particular thing about the nature of a god and the universe, I strongly believe I cannot know. So I don't guess with the veneer of certainty...

So I get your point and buy it once the accident of birth has befallen us and our initial reality has been determined. But I believe that this accident of birth is pure luck and it treats some of us very very well and some of us very very badly, to no credit or fault of our own. Even taking the possibility of reincarnation into account, I can't ascribe any blame or credit to the newborn baby for where and when and under what circumstances he or she was born. And that determines SOOOOO much! Although it's tempting to think that perhaps Hitler came back as a victim of Pol Pot and somehow deserved it, I can't buy that the newborn incarnation deserved it, even if the forbearer surely did...

-Ray

[Climb01742]

I would offer that in Buddhism, there is no 'luck', no 'theory', no finger, no moon - and no 'Buddhism'. And yet, there is something there that is not theory, entirely beyond the words and thinking.

'Finger and moon' is just a metaphor to illustrate the distinction between the 'chatter' and this 'something'.

Absolutely agree. I was using language that I hoped would make some sense to folks not familiar with Buddhism. You, sir, clearly are:) and I sit (cross-legged) corrected.:beer:

[Climb01742]

Reality's highly personal interpretation is what leads me to being a hard core, aggressive agnostic. There are things I don't believe I can possibly know or understand - they're just so vast. So rather than believe a highly specific set of stories that other men made up about these things (which I consider highly arrogant), I revel in the fact that I cannot and DO NOT know. This is not a wishy-washy can't make up my mind agnosticism - it's a very determined, conscious, and deliberate version of agnosticism. To the extent I believe any particular thing about the nature of a god and the universe, I strongly believe I cannot know. So I don't guess with the veneer of certainty...

So I get your point and buy it once the accident of birth has befallen us and our initial reality has been determined. But I believe that this accident of birth is pure luck and it treats some of us very very well and some of us very very badly, to no credit or fault of our own. Even taking the possibility of reincarnation into account, I can't ascribe any blame or credit to the newborn baby for where and when and under what circumstances he or she was born. And that determines SOOOOO much! Although it's tempting to think that perhaps Hitler came back as a victim of Pol Pot and somehow deserved it, I can't buy that the newborn incarnation deserved it, even if the forbearer surely did...

-Ray

Ray,

About your first paragraph: I don't see your stance as wishy-washy at all. You raise another interesting point: One human conceit is that we can, with enough work, understand anything. Maybe we can't. I agree that there are things beyond both our understanding and control. One response to that is to set the big picture aside and be in the moment, the now...and do what makes sense, what is compassionate at that moment...then do the same the next moment.

About your second paragraph: we disagree there. The way I see it, our souls carry our merits and our demerits with us across time (until enlightenment...yippee!) and we're born into the circumstances we've earned. But a key aspect of those circumstances is that they hold potential lessons and opportunities for us. I see the universe as a loving presence that wants us to move toward compassion, and gives us lessons and opportunities to do so, but it gives us free will and it keeps score of our choices. I've been through some stuff the last few years. One way to see it is I've had some bad luck and maybe one or two folks acted badly toward me...but that feels like an easy way out. Another way to see it is it was time I learned some lessons and looked at life and people differently. This wasn't a turn of events I foresaw or frankly wanted, but I do have this deep sense that the universe is trying to help me grow with some 'tough love'. Maybe karma is a convenient explanation or maybe it's the truth here. I can't say for sure, but I do know what I sense.

[Exonerv]

It's nice to read the collective wisdom of a group of folks with some time under there belt. I'm with Dead Man on having kids when you're young. For my wife and I, it was the right thing to do. Now in our mid-50's, our 4 sons are grown and are currently spread from Anchorage to Peru living adventure filled lives of their own. We had fun growing up with them and appreciate each other more after 34 years of marriage than ever.

I'm with numbskull & kirk007 on learning to give up control. If there's any one thing this life is trying to teach us it's to "let go." Loss is universal. Fear of loss or of not having enough, fuels selfishness. The more I can let go of my wants and needs, the less I fear the future, which frees me to be present and appreciate the moment and those around me. At work, it's no longer my private practice...it belongs to all who contribute in any small way to its' success.

My ego did not go willingly. It felt like it had to be ripped from my chest. But on a good day, I'm so glad not to be under the illusion that I'm calling the shots.



Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

[Ray]

Ray,

About your first paragraph: I don't see your stance as wishy-washy at all. You raise another interesting point: One human conceit is that we can, with enough work, understand anything. Maybe we can't. I agree that there are things beyond both our understanding and control. One response to that is to set the big picture aside and be in the moment, the now...and do what makes sense, what is compassionate at that moment...then do the same the next moment.


I don't see it as wishy washy either, but that's the common view of agnosticism, like it's a hedging of bets or a "just can't make up your mind to be all in or all out" kind of thing. But to me, religion and atheism are two sides of the same coin - a certainty that I can't get behind in either direction. Just too much we can't know. And the way I view agnosticism is an assertive statement of "I don't know"...


About your second paragraph: we disagree there. The way I see it, our souls carry our merits and our demerits with us across time (until enlightenment...yippee!) and we're born into the circumstances we've earned. But a key aspect of those circumstances is that they hold potential lessons and opportunities for us. I see the universe as a loving presence that wants us to move toward compassion, and gives us lessons and opportunities to do so, but it gives us free will and it keeps score of our choices. I've been through some stuff the last few years. One way to see it is I've had some bad luck and maybe one or two folks acted badly toward me...but that feels like an easy way out. Another way to see it is it was time I learned some lessons and looked at life and people differently. This wasn't a turn of events I foresaw or frankly wanted, but I do have this deep sense that the universe is trying to help me grow with some 'tough love'. Maybe karma is a convenient explanation or maybe it's the truth here. I can't say for sure, but I do know what I sense.
I'm with you one karma and taking full responsibility for our actions and outcomes within our lifetimes, but I guess I just get off the boat when it comes to it carrying through reincarnation(s), assuming one believes in reincarnation in the first place. I have to take an "I don't know" approach to that too. What good is being born (or re-born, however we see it), if you can't at least START with a clean slate and not be punished for the transgressions of your previous incarnations, which you have no conscious memory or knowledge of.

I can't get my head around the kid who was born in Cambodia in the 50's and was done in by Pol Pot in the '70s in any way "deserving" that any more than I can get my head around me somehow being "entitled" to all of the good that's come my way by my own accident of being born white and middle class in the '50s in the US... I can't begin to take or feel any credit for it, and I sure can't blame a victim of genocide for the fate he or she suffered. So that's where I have to draw my own line and believe in luck...

-Ray

[OtayBW]

I can't begin to take or feel any credit for it, and I sure can't blame a victim of genocide for the fate he or she suffered. So that's where I have to draw my own line and believe in luck...I don't know about reincarnation in the sense that many people describe it, but I am quite comfortable with the concept of 'transformation' in the sense that, for example, the rains fall, takes up nutrients from the ground which becomes part of a plant; the leaves fall, decay and return to the soil - and so on through endless cycles. Everything transforms. Everything changes. We all transform as well, and yet, nothing really 'goes away' and in a larger sense. No Thing dies and No Thing emerges that didn't already exist.

The extent to which your personal actions and responsibilities play into how all this unfolds - I don't know. I had a teacher once who simply acknowledged that 'things happened for a reason', and that 'it's a mysterious universe'. Not much more was typically said about all of this.

[Climb01742]

I can't get my head around the kid who was born in Cambodia in the 50's and was done in by Pol Pot in the '70s in any way "deserving" that any more than I can get my head around me somehow being "entitled" to all of the good that's come my way by my own accident of being born white and middle class in the '50s in the US... I can't begin to take or feel any credit for it, and I sure can't blame a victim of genocide for the fate he or she suffered. So that's where I have to draw my own line and believe in luck...

-Ray

This is one of the great mysteries of life. Is the universe an ordered process with underlying rules or a random and capricious place? Who can say for sure?

For me, I'd at least like to be on Einstein's side. "God does not play dice with the universe." I don't believe in a deterministic 'god' (and neither did Albert) but he did believe that there were underlying principles that governed outcomes. We're free to choose our actions, I think, but as I said earlier, somewhere something keeps score. We earn the good that comes to us and we earn the difficulties too. I don't see the universe as being a place of random, senseless cruelty (though on any given day there sure seems to be evidence to the contrary.) But who knows? To circle back to the OP, with age and time, we hope to find answers that make sense to us.

[fuzzalow]

Here you go, Fuzz. This is brilliant.

"You are less important and less influential than you think". Get that tattooed on the back of one hand.

"Give up the false notion that you are in control". Put that on your other hand.

And here is a third one worth putting on your forehead.

You see Fuzz, the reality is that it is not about you, you most certainly are not in control, and things will be just fine over the long term without you. Life is, therefore, (to use the bike race metaphor you eluded to earlier) not about winning a race, but about being part of the race itself. Just as the Tour de France is not about who wins. That ultimately makes no difference. Rather it is about all who take part, the contenders, the supporting riders, the coaches, the mechanics, the drivers, the policemen, the organizers, the reporters, the fans,.....even the mountains, roads, and countryside it all winds through. Without them as a group the race doesn't exist, but no single participant alone is necessary.

Until middle age it is hard to see all this. Your perspective is too short, your focus too inward. You are at the front of the race, generating huge watts, fighting for control, trying to win. Middle age is about realizing you are not going to win........or rather that you are already winning just by being part of the whole thing and helping everyone else. And at that point you will feel free, unburdened. It becomes alright to draft when you want or need to, and pull from the front when you feel you can. Sure there are still hills to climb, descents to master, and mechanicals to overcome in order to stay in it as long as you can, to give the race as much as you are able. And even after that you can still pull over, unclip, and watch it go by in passive enjoyment......a part of it until it all fades from sight....... and you are left only with a smile.

Have fun.

I don't have any problem or issues with anything expressed above as a collective alternative in adopted outlook on personal life. In many forms these principles and philosophy are integrated into some of what might guide us in a more balanced and peaceful attitude and approach in how life can be handled. That this is available to anyone's personal, family and community life has never been a point of contention in what I have posted about here. However I don't think it can be used as an overarching credo across all of modern life.

I do not and cannot see the application of this same philosophy as an predominant core value in professional life. That entire zen entranced, holistically equilibrated and peaceful state of being you are extolling has virtually no application to professional life. At least to what I view as a professional environment that encompasses competition, adversarial constructs or a zero-sum basis to transactional commerce or activity, to name but a few. But dealing with the conflict and inapplicability of spiritual values to commercial objectives is hardly groundbreaking news. But I'd say that if all that was quoted in your reply is intended as applicable to all in modern life, to me that would be ambitiously utopian and impossible. In fact, I'd view some of that approach as professionally negligent.

I did not have to get to middle age to know what I choose as applicable to my own life had inherent conflicts and incompatibilities across the professional, personal, private and spiritual spheres of my life. I will admit that with accumulated living and life experience there reveals a greater subtlety, nuance and pluralism to all aspects of how I see life. Which might encourage me a more ready acceptance of how view others things but not necessarily a greater understanding of same. Hey, with some people, I simply don't wanna know what and how they think although they are often quite easy to figure out.

Some of the talk here is, as usual for this forum, fascinating and interesting talk from a diverse and interesting crowd.

@numbskull I appreciate the reply even if in a roundabout way we might agree on some of it. Frankly, if some of the harsh edges haven't come off of anybody by middle age, then that to me, is a very unfulfilling and unpleasant life to live.

[christian]

Agree with much of the sentiment here. Marrying right is key. I don't know how one ensures that, but my wife is the source of so much of my happiness and the best partner I could have in life.

Working hard in your twenties is important. I'll go as far as saying that your performance in your first couple of jobs sets up your career trajectory for much of the rest of your life. I spent a lot of time in my twenties racing cars, and it is by the grace of God and good mentors that I managed to get a decent career anyway. Not a plan I would recommend. On the other hand, it was fun while it lasted. (Practical advice: if you go car racing on your 40th birthday, your wife will have much fodder for midlife crisis jokes.)

Avoiding debt is useful as it gives you options. I've never owned a car that cost more than 1/10th my annual salary. My one current debt is my mortgage.

I don't know when you should have kids, but they're definitely fun.

And I think there's a lot of wisdom to the education-job-marriage-kids-in-that-order trope. May not be right for everyone, but it does seem to give a solid financial foundation upon which you can build a great life. I'm far from a social conservative, but this is one thing David Brooks has right.

Oh, and most of all, at 40, I feel grateful for all the opportunities my parents afforded me. I live a great life and I've put in some work,, but the vast majority of that is being born who I was and marrying the person I did.

[Ray]

This is one of the great mysteries of life. Is the universe an ordered process with underlying rules or a random and capricious place? Who can say for sure?

For me, I'd at least like to be on Einstein's side. "God does not play dice with the universe." I don't believe in a deterministic 'god' (and neither did Albert) but he did believe that there were underlying principles that governed outcomes. We're free to choose our actions, I think, but as I said earlier, somewhere something keeps score. We earn the good that comes to us and we earn the difficulties too. I don't see the universe as being a place of random, senseless cruelty (though on any given day there sure seems to be evidence to the contrary.) But who knows? To circle back to the OP, with age and time, we hope to find answers that make sense to us.
I agree with you (and Albert) that the underlying principles of the universe don't "play dice" in the larger macro sense. But I also don't believe that even if there is some sort of deterministic "god", that he's making sure every single little detail is handled according to a plan. I believe it in the large sense like if we over-stress our planet crazy storms, rising seas, droughts and famines, and crazy wars are realistic and inevitable outcomes based on the underlying principles or laws of nature. But just as I laugh when a football coach or player gives his version of god all the credit when they win (yet never seems to blame god for the losses...), I just don't think any version of god or karma or organizing principles is so concerned with the micro details to give a proverbial rat's ass whether the person who dies in a huge tsunami or terrorist incident or war had it coming or not. I do believe that bad things happen to good people who didn't deserve it based on how they lived this or any previous life.

But to the extent we may see this differently, I wholeheartedly endorse your last sentence, "To circle back to the OP, with age and time, we hope to find answers that make sense to us". To me, that's the value of the journey. If I could somehow defy the laws of nature and combine they physical attributes of youth with the wisdom and perspective that only come with age, I'd jump at that chance in a New York minute. But we don't get that. We have to waste our youth having a stone blast but always wanting more more MORE! And then when we realize we've had it all the whole time, we only get to enjoy that perspective as we see the young folks ride past us on the climbs... ;)

And, realistically, middle age is probably when we come closest to a great balance between the two, bodies that still work pretty damn well and minds and souls that have learned most of the big lessons and have the perspective to appreciate it more fully. So, there you go - middle age rocks!

-Ray

[Ray]

Agree with much of the sentiment here. Marrying right is key. I don't know how one ensures that, but my wife is the source of so much of my happiness and the best partner I could have in life.

Couldn't agree more strongly. Marriage isn't for everyone, but if you're gonna marry, I hope you get it right. I have so many friends who are somewhere between miserable and "go along to get along" in their marriages and on balance they're not very happy people. I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg here, but there seems to be causality. I've been very lucky (or maybe I was emotionally smarter in my youth than I could ever see myself having been) to have married incredibly well.

We hit our 30th anniversary last summer and our marriage and family is by far the most important part of my life. We've had challenges, but they were generally external and the strength of the marriage was what sustained us and got us through the tough stuff. In addition to the still bright emotional flame that burns, she's been my best friend for my whole adult life and there's no greater gift than to get to live every day, go to bed every night, and wake up every morning with your best friend. We have the occasional bad moment, but very very few bad entire days (and none for many years now) and definitely no sustained periods of any sort of marital strife.

There's no greater gift IMHO...

-Ray

[numbskull]

Yeah, Fuzz, I understand and absolutely agree with what you are saying about hard work and ambition being important to reach a successful middle age. The surprise, for me at least, was what happened after I got there.

What I think I learned is that the tools (i.e., beliefs, traits, work habits, and self-focus/criticism) that served so well to achieve success and happiness through first half of one's life are not necessarily the tools one needs or wants to achieve the same in the last third of their life.

You see your needs are different and your role in the world is different once you have achieved some level of security and your children have moved into adolescence. We are not in control to anywhere near the level we like to imagine, we are not that important, and our real value (as distinct from personal satisfaction) is defined by our effect on others rather than the individual goals we achieve. Continued growth as a person (and ultimately your happiness) requires recognition and acceptance of this reality. It is hard to give up the world view (and your conception of your place in it) that served you so well in your younger years, and most of us fight against it for a while, but time and reality are tough to deny (no matter how resonant the myth of successfully doing so feels).

Coming to grips with this change, accepting it, and learning the new life tools to deal with it is, I think, the necessary task of middle age in order to find success, wisdom, and happiness in the final third of one's life.

[soulspinner]

It's nice to read the collective wisdom of a group of folks with some time under there belt. I'm with Dead Man on having kids when you're young. For my wife and I, it was the right thing to do. Now in our mid-50's, our 4 sons are grown and are currently spread from Anchorage to Peru living adventure filled lives of their own. We had fun growing up with them and appreciate each other more after 34 years of marriage than ever.

I'm with numbskull & kirk007 on learning to give up control. If there's any one thing this life is trying to teach us it's to "let go." Loss is universal. Fear of loss or of not having enough, fuels selfishness. The more I can let go of my wants and needs, the less I fear the future, which frees me to be present and appreciate the moment and those around me. At work, it's no longer my private practice...it belongs to all who contribute in any small way to its' success.

My ego did not go willingly. It felt like it had to be ripped from my chest. But on a good day, I'm so glad not to be under the illusion that I'm calling the shots.



Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

well said.

[Matthew]

I am doing the same thing as ofcounsel. I think about death almost every day. I will be 49 in May and I think I have lots of good years left. But after losing both my parents and my in-laws and many of my childhood friends' parents it seems I can't help but think about it often. I am also in a good place in life now. I have a good job, no kids and a good wife. I live in a great home in a beautiful area near Lake Michigan. I can ride virtually anytime I want and have a super nice stable of bikes that I really enjoy. I find myself frequently checking the obituaries in the town I grew up in, my co-workers find that weird! I guess I am just going to keep fighting this aging thing as hard as I can for as long as I can and hope for the best.

[soulspinner]

When I turned 60 I looked up the definition of middle age. It appears I have a few years left before old age. Then I m going to emulate Hank...:beer:

[Kirk007]

I do not and cannot see the application of this same philosophy as an predominant core value in professional life. That entire zen entranced, holistically equilibrated and peaceful state of being you are extolling has virtually no application to professional life. At least to what I view as a professional environment that encompasses competition, adversarial constructs or a zero-sum basis to transactional commerce or activity, to name but a few. ***In fact, I'd view some of that approach as professionally negligent.



I've been a lawyer for 30 years. I've been the CEO of small businesses (legal and public policy advocates) for almost 20. There is nothing soft or noncompetitive about what I do.

In my experience having a core value of "zen entranced ... state of being" is not at all incompatible nor inapplicable in the professional realm and is far from professionally negligent (unless you have no concept of tactics or strategy and no ability to act and then I can see how it could be, just like a hyper competitive attitude can likewise be negligent if misapplied).

The holistic, zen my place in the universe view of life that you refer to does not in my view dictate tactics to be employed rather it becomes a point of view, a guide to how one lives their life, that can inform ones decisions across all spheres. I think I'm better at what I do professionally now than I was twenty years ago, and perspective born out of a developed philosophy of life is the difference.

[wc1934]

Fly, yep, that's it in a nutshell. Trying to do things for the intrinsic worth of the action vs what the action may get us.

+1
I am late into this thread. I am middle aged, but I don't know it - hahaha.

What others do and say to you is their karma.
What you do and how you respond is your karma.

[Climb01742]

What others do and say to you is their karma.
What you do and how you respond is your karma.

yes, yes, yes.

[fuzzalow]

Always difficult to catch and communicate subtlety in thought with a written Q&A type of repartee across a forum chat. You often have to fill in the blanks with how you think your counter-parties intended meaning based on what little you may know of them from how they have typically responded and carried themselves in the forum. I think I know you both as reasonable, thoughtful persons.

An enjoyable conversation with you both and after all the hubbub I think we are in reasonable agreement. With any differences attributed to the inability to convey subtlety and to banter rapidly enough in point-counterpoint to refine and localize that we're talkin' to an identical theme after all.

Yeah, Fuzz, I understand and absolutely agree with what you are saying about hard work and ambition being important to reach a successful middle age. The surprise, for me at least, was what happened after I got there.

What I think I learned is that the tools (i.e., beliefs, traits, work habits, and self-focus/criticism) that served so well to achieve success and happiness through first half of one's life are not necessarily the tools one needs or wants to achieve the same in the last third of their life.

You see your needs are different and your role in the world is different once you have achieved some level of security and your children have moved into adolescence. We are not in control to anywhere near the level we like to imagine, we are not that important, and our real value (as distinct from personal satisfaction) is defined by our effect on others rather than the individual goals we achieve. Continued growth as a person (and ultimately your happiness) requires recognition and acceptance of this reality. It is hard to give up the world view (and your conception of your place in it) that served you so well in your younger years, and most of us fight against it for a while, but time and reality are tough to deny (no matter how resonant the myth of successfully doing so feels).

Coming to grips with this change, accepting it, and learning the new life tools to deal with it is, I think, the necessary task of middle age in order to find success, wisdom, and happiness in the final third of one's life.

Yes, agree. All that you say here fits into a similar motif regarding knowledge: In effect that the more you know the more you know and understand what you don't know and have yet to learn. I think notions about control in life fit along the same lines: all that can be hoped for is to influence an outcome.

For example, every try to command a teen-ager what to do? HA, good luck with that! A large part of my kid's value and judgement capability was formed long ago in what they saw, heard and imitated from parents as far back as from 3 years old. Kids may not have judgement but they sure as heck know that they are being snowed by a parent that orders one thing and has always done the opposite or inconsistently. And that lack of grounding gives them the license to tell such a parent to go eff themselves. HaHa! Not for me & Mrs. fuzz as parents - we knew we were always being watched :eek: and we knew to play for the long game.

This is also an argument against having kids young, I'm not sure most 22-year old parents have the maturity, and subtlety, to know this but I also think this quality is a adjunct of lesser socio-economic strata to oversimplify a complex world in bringing a world to meet their capacity & limitations in coping. I was pretty stupid at 22 and I was then in grad/law school. Plus a shaky financial foundation is a terrible way forwards for a young family not because money is important per se but because it limits & colors decision making. An equivalent and more wrenching view of this was the overriding theme in Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates - not for the racism but for the oppression that narrows all of life's options going forwards.

I've been a lawyer for 30 years. I've been the CEO of small businesses (legal and public policy advocates) for almost 20. There is nothing soft or noncompetitive about what I do.

In my experience having a core value of "zen entranced ... state of being" is not at all incompatible nor inapplicable in the professional realm and is far from professionally negligent (unless you have no concept of tactics or strategy and no ability to act and then I can see how it could be, just like a hyper competitive attitude can likewise be negligent if misapplied).

The holistic, zen my place in the universe view of life that you refer to does not in my view dictate tactics to be employed rather it becomes a point of view, a guide to how one lives their life, that can inform ones decisions across all spheres. I think I'm better at what I do professionally now than I was twenty years ago, and perspective born out of a developed philosophy of life is the difference.

Yes, agree. Maturity of outlook, both of one's self and of the placement, import and capacity to influence & control, or lack thereof, the flow of life events is a major determinant to sound judgment to all things in life. Professional or personal.

[shovelhd]

At 58 I think I'm a bit past middle age and approaching old age, but I don't feel like it. I got laid off a month ago in a wave of cost reduction where age was absolutely one of the components, but that's the way it goes in business today. I have accepted this. Fortunately we are in good shape financially and my skillset is still relevant, so I'm not concerned at this point. Our children are grown and only one is a dependent in college. Our house will be paid off in a few months.

I spend a lot of time thinking about retirement as it isn't that far away. I will work, but it will be on my terms, and it won't be in my field. But that's another topic and another thread.

Middle age has treated me well.

[ofcounsel]

Seems like we have a lot of middle-aged lawyers on this forum :beer:

[Kirk007]

An enjoyable conversation with you both and after all the hubbub I think we are in reasonable agreement.


Indeed. Thanks for starting this thread, it has been a very interesting exchange; one of the better OT threads in quite awhile.

[mg2ride]

......
Reality's highly personal interpretation is what leads me to being a hard core, aggressive agnostic. There are things I don't believe I can possibly know or understand - they're just so vast. So rather than believe a highly specific set of stories that other men made up about these things (which I consider highly arrogant), I revel in the fact that I cannot and DO NOT know. This is not a wishy-washy can't make up my mind agnosticism - it's a very determined, conscious, and deliberate version of agnosticism. To the extent I believe any particular thing about the nature of a god and the universe, I strongly believe I cannot know. So I don't guess with the veneer of certainty...
...

-Ray

That is a very well written couple of sentences.

[Waldo]

Middle age -- I counsel against it.

[Dead Man]

Middle age -- I counsel against it.

I've already decided I am reverting to 29, and staying there.

[livingminimal]

Good thread. Less white male privilege than I had thought there might be.

Reality is, a lot of people get to "middle age" and their sense of culturally-instilled entitlement and sense of being "lost" completely take over.

I hate to discount other people's feelings (I suffer from Depression, when people don't take it seriously, it sucks.) but a lot of the stereotypes (rooted in reality) that have stemmed from the talk of mid-life crisis, are from exactly this almost entirely western, fabricated phenomenon.

Not a lot of that here, thankfully.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Almost 55 so certainly middle-aged by definition and that's the problem. I don't think I am and I do daily battle w/Father Time and Mother Nature to not go willingly. I still have all my hair but it mostly gray. I cut out many carbs and rely on fat for calories and I have a hard time maintaining 145# (losing, not gaining weight). My bench press is 20# less than when I was 21. I can still maintain a mid-13 minute 2-mile run. 280 watts on the Computrainer hurts now so I figure I've lost 10% of my VO2 max. I actually have a lot of energy and nothing hurts but an injury does take longer to heal now. No need for Viagra but Peter North has nothing to fear.;)

[kitsnob]

LOVE the Peter North reference .....
I like your style!!

[soulspinner]

Almost 55 so certainly middle-aged by definition and that's the problem. I don't think I am and I do daily battle w/Father Time and Mother Nature to not go willingly. I still have all my hair but it mostly gray. I cut out many carbs and rely on fat for calories and I have a hard time maintaining 145# (losing, not gaining weight). My bench press is 20# less than when I was 21. I can still maintain a mid-13 minute 2-mile run. 280 watts on the Computrainer hurts now so I figure I've lost 10% of my VO2 max. I actually have a lot of energy and nothing hurts but an injury does take longer to heal now. No need for Viagra but Peter North has nothing to fear.;)

:beer: