Custom Frame Order - Degree of Fitting Expectations

[Duende]

Hey Paceline friends,

I'm curious as to what you all would expect when ordering a new custom frame? What degree of measurement taking/ fitting is sufficient?

Not going to throw anyone under the bus here, but is simply taking ones contact point measurements off an old bike good enough?

I'm thinking that's just a point of reference and a complete and proper fitting should be expected when ordering a custom frame.

Are my expectations too high? This isn't a cheap purchase by any means.

Thanks for you input.

[malcolm]

I have had several customs over the years and have never been fitted in person. They have all been pretty similar. Usually a couple phone calls with questions about use, riding style and expectations. Then they all had a series of measurements for you to do or have done and most also wanted measurements from bikes I was currently riding.
If you know exactly what you want contact points may be enough, but I would expect they would want more.

For me, I didn't want to dictate in any way what I wanted the builder to make. I wanted to give an idea of what I wanted the bike to do then have him produce his idea of what would best meet my requirements.
I've been very fortunate because every builder has hit the mark, a couple way beyond expectation.

[EricEstlund]

There is a pretty wide range of approaches. It's best to talk with the potential builder to see if you are both comfortable with their process and go from there.

[sandyrs]

Depends on the builder. If you're happy with your current fit you can go off contact points. If you're not you should say something and the builder will tell you how s/he approaches that- either by doing the fitting themselves or by getting numbers from a local fitter.

[AngryScientist]

I agree with Eric above.

One thing is for sure - if you are not comfortable with the process, and your expectations are not met, you should either work it out with the builder directly, or find someone else to give your money to. I recommend doing exactly what Mr Estlund mentioned above - have a very frank conversation with the builder about what you're thinking, and depending on if you are satisfied with the other end of the conversation, either carry on or move to someone else.

[MattTuck]

I agree with Eric above.

One thing is for sure - if you are not comfortable with the process, and your expectations are not met, you should either work it out with the builder directly, or find someone else to give your money to. I recommend doing exactly what Mr Estlund mentioned above - have a very frank conversation with the builder about what you're thinking, and depending on if you are satisfied with the other end of the conversation, either carry on or move to someone else.

+1.

If you are having communication problems at this point, it is not a good sign.

On the other hand, if you are happy with your current fit (as Sandy mentioned) that is certainly enough for a builder to go on. Of course, even with the same contact points, geometry decisions by the builder could change the handling from that of your current machine.

[CNY rider]

I went through a full Serotta fitting session before buying one, lots of measurements taken and analysis done, and ended up on a stock 54 cm Legend that fits me just fine.
I also have bicycles for which Mike Barry (Mariposa) and Curt Goodrich did the fit in person and then built bicycles that fit me perfectly. Both were decidedly low tech and short in duration.
So you can get to the right place in a variety of ways.

[metalheart]

When I was shopping for a custom I found a wide range of approaches to what the builder wanted for fit information. Some asked for contact points (which did not work for me since the bike I was riding at the time was too big) while others asked for fit information from a fitter while others did the fit themselves if you could make the trip to their shop or provide answers to a questionnaire and some images/video of current on the bike position.

Some folks gave me more comfort than others about ensuring the fit would work for me. And, since I experienced some issues riding because of a too big bike, fit became one of the most important issues and those builders who could combine fitting knowledge with building expertise gave me the most comfort.

Now, I have friends who have bought custom bikes and provided the contact points from their current bike along with what did and did not work for them with that bike and they were happy with the outcome of their builds. So, it depends...

This is one of those communication issues between you and the builder as well as your level of comfort about your current fit and what you need. I did not know what I needed and wanted someone with expertise who gave me confidence the build would work for me. I was reluctant to go to a fitter and then provide that information to the builder, but that clearly works for some folks with no issues.

One more note here .... I was seeing a physical therapist/fitter at the time I took delivery of my bike. Since he had worked with me on the fit of my too big bike, I wanted to make sure we both agreed about my custom. That was eye opening since he wanted to change the stem, saddle, and other issues that I spent considerable time working with the builder to make sure they were right. I trusted the builder's fitting more than the physical therapist and in the end all worked well with the way the bike was set up when I took delivery.

[parris]

Maybe I'm reading the op wrong. Are you saying that a builder you're going to order a frame from just wants your contact point info? Or is this more of an academic question as to process that different builders utilize?

[Peter P.]

Sounds like the OP is not sure whether his current bike fits right.

I'd expect a builder to take current bike measurements AND body measurements. That way the builder can tell whether you actually fit the bike you're currently riding.

If the builder is merely taking measurements off an old bike and nothing else, then they're not really building a bike to fit you, they're building a frame to match your existing frame. If you're already satisfied with how the current frame fits then that's not a problem.

I wouldn't expect the builder to perform a fitting i.e., specifying seat height, fore/aft etc. His job is to create the platform window within which you can adjust to fit.

I've had several custom frames and already knew what fit me. After providing bike and body measurements to all of them, they pretty much were able to build a well-fitting bike. And I had no personal contact with any of them; all work was done by e-mail and phone.

[Duende]

Thanks so much for all the responses. I've yet to discuss fitting directly with the builder. The store that reps the FrameMaker does the ordering process and is telling me that contact points are enough info. No body measurements nada..

I've reached out directly to the frame builder and have expressed that my expectations of a custom frame order are not being met. Let's see what happens.

FYI... My current fit seems fine, although I am having some minor comfort issues in my knees. Don't know if it's a result of my short legs/long torso, but I at least want that taken into consideration here.

Just reaching out here to get an objective opinion on my expectations. Super helpful everyone. Sounds like I'm on the right track.

[pdmtong]

remember, the builder is not creating your perfect fit. the builder is interpreting your data into how they would fit you on a bike he is building for you.

that is a subtle but big difference.

send more data. use this as an opportunity to get another "expert" view instead of just propagating the past.

[Climb01742]

remember, the builder is not creating your perfect fit. the builder is interpreting your data into how they would fit you on a bike he is building for you.

that is a subtle but big difference.

+1

A great builder isn't necessarily a great fitter. He may be, but nothing is guaranteed. A great builder can take fit coordinates and place all the tubes in the right place and join all the tubes well and beautifully.

If you have fit questions, finding a greater fitter first might make sense.

Lots of skill sets involved. They all may, or may not, be in same person.

Good luck however you proceed!:D

[parris]

I could be very wrong but the shop only sending contact info raises some red flags.

When Dave Kirk built my bike a few years ago he sent several work sheets that encompassed several variables. Body measurements, bike measurements, and other info. After he got the sheets back and my space in his queue came up he sent along a few other work sheets asking Things like how I ride, normal terrain, things I liked/didn't like about the bikes I owned at the time, etc. We also exchanged e-mails and phone calls.

Once he had everything he needed he sent me a cad drawing of the proposed design for me to ask questions if any. Out of a very good process he built me a bike that fits like a well broken in pair of high quality boots.

I've heard that several other good builders have a similar system.

[eBAUMANN]

^^ exactly what climb said.

if you are experiencing any discomfort on your bike at all, i would recommend getting a professional fit, especially if you are considering investing a substantial amount of money in a custom frame.

get fit on your current bike, find contact points you are happy with there, then translate those points to the custom frame design.

good luck!

[pdmtong]

I could be very wrong but the shop only sending contact info raises some red flags.

When Dave Kirk built my bike a few years ago he sent several work sheets that encompassed several variables. Body measurements, bike measurements, and other info. After he got the sheets back and my space in his queue came up he sent along a few other work sheets asking Things like how I ride, normal terrain, things I liked/didn't like about the bikes I owned at the time, etc. We also exchanged e-mails and phone calls.

Once he had everything he needed he sent me a cad drawing of the proposed design for me to ask questions if any. Out of a very good process he built me a bike that fits like a well broken in pair of high quality boots.

I've heard that several other good builders have a similar system.

I often wonder how this approach would work for me.

I have ridden a number of stock 56 "stage race geo" sized hand made frames and other than stem length adjustment to preference they all could disappear under me over a 100/9500' day and when I get off, no pain other than pooped out.

so this is to say, i often wonder what are the singular tweaks in response to a singular preferred characteristic that a builder has at their disposal. easy one...faster steering response, go from HTA 73.0 to steeper 73.5. I'm no builder, but for a general all around road bike, it seems like for common body measures, the basic geos have been figured and whats left is to

place the rider in the right balanced spot between the wheels.

I love the back-forth you describe, but I hear form others they sent the data, got the CAD, got the bike done.

what I dont understand, is when you get the CAD, what am I really supposed to react to. if its way different than what I am used to seeing, sure I can ask a question. but some tweak here or there, I am not so sure I have any idea on how or why I should react. again, I am a stock 56....

[skiezo]

This is just me but here is what I did when ordering a custom built to measure frame.
I took my current ride to the place I was having the professional fit preformed at. We discussed my likes and dislikes with my current ride. I said what type of riding I mostly do and what I wanted out of my bike.
He did measurements of my current bike and than I was on the fit machine.
He dialed in my ride and I made suggestions us to changes I would like to make. I took a few hours but in the end the bike I got was exactly what I was expecting.
The couple hundred for the professional fit was well worth it as I did not want to spend over 3K on a frame and than say "what if"???
The bike came out as close to perfect as I could want.
Just my 2 cents.

[eBAUMANN]

what I dont understand, is when you get the CAD, what am I really supposed to react to. if its way different than what I am used to seeing, sure I can ask a question. but some tweak here or there, I am not so sure I have any idea on how or why I should react. again, I am a stock 56....

When you get a CAD drawing from a builder, you should look at the chart you have for the bike you are riding (assuming you have one), and compare those specs to what the builder has sent.

If anything is vastly different, this is when you could ask:

"Hey _____, I noticed you spec'd _____ at ____, just wondering what effect (if any) I can expect this number to have on the ride characteristics of the bike?"

If this type of inspection is outside your wheelhouse, it comes down to how much information you provided the builder with (body and current bike measurements, info from fitter, etc) and trust.

[John H.]

Current contact points only work if your current fit is ideal and the builder can translate those custom points into a bike that mimics your fit (some builders can do this some cannot).
You mentioned that you are having some knee issues. I would suggest sorting that out beforehand as it is possible that could affect your final fit and comfort.

Hey Paceline friends,

I'm curious as to what you all would expect when ordering a new custom frame? What degree of measurement taking/ fitting is sufficient?

Not going to throw anyone under the bus here, but is simply taking ones contact point measurements off an old bike good enough?

I'm thinking that's just a point of reference and a complete and proper fitting should be expected when ordering a custom frame.

Are my expectations too high? This isn't a cheap purchase by any means.

Thanks for you input.

[Fivethumbs]

It depends on what the builder is offering. Some builders offer just to build you the bike according to your specs others will try to determine what bike will be best for you. It is best to have a complete understanding of what are the exact services the builder provides.

I have had three custom frames. One builder told me to go to a fitter who would provide frame dimensions and then the builder would use those numbers to build the bike. He also had me talk to Henry James (the tubing supplier) to inquire as to the best tubes for my particular application. The bike ended up fitting and riding great.

I have had two other frame sets, both built by Della Santa. My understanding of Roland's philosophy is this: He builds traditional road racing frame sets. Anyone who is in the market for a custom road racing bike should have already had enough time in the saddle to know what works for them or what they need. Roland only wants three numbers from you - seat tube length, top tube length, and set back/seat tube angle. From these numbers he can build you a great frame. If you have additional requirements such as desiring a classic vintage tube set, getting lightest possible weight, having increased stiffness, special lug sets, etc., you can let him know and he can select tubes; and lugs to accommodate these requirements. Both bikes he built for me were great bikes and if I was to get another, he would be first on my list.

[pdmtong]

When you get a CAD drawing from a builder, you should look at the chart you have for the bike you are riding (assuming you have one), and compare those specs to what the builder has sent.

If anything is vastly different, this is when you could ask:

"Hey _____, I noticed you spec'd _____ at ____, just wondering what effect (if any) I can expect this number to have on the ride characteristics of the bike?"

If this type of inspection is outside your wheelhouse, it comes down to how much information you provided the builder with (body and current bike measurements, info from fitter, etc) and trust.
I get this. if the builder came back with something very different from the litany of CADS from the frames I have had or ridden, sure, I ask a question. where I am goofed is if say the HT comes back at 13.59 versus the 14.0 I am used to. 13.59 sounds like the derivation from a calculation, and not a round number. this is where I wonder how much is a result of the calculation and how much is intentional based on builder desire for a characteristic
Roland only wants three numbers from you - seat tube length, top tube length, and set back/seat tube angle. From these numbers he can build you a great frame.
I believe Dario and Richard also just use three measures: saddle height, bar reach, and bar drop.

[parris]

PDM you and I ride similar size bikes. I can pretty much ride anything from 54-57 depending on t.t./stem overall length. I will also say that given where we are in the bell curve I didn't "need" a custom bike.

Like several on the board I've got a few minor chronic injuries that had my old bikes not feeling as great as they once did. I was also finally in a place where I could afford a bike that would fit better not only now but also as I age with the fit changes that would bring to the table.

The CAD design was exactly as EBauman had stated in his reply. That drawing was the line in the sand before the design was finalized and tubes would be cut. I liked getting the drawing because it gave me an opprotunity to ask about a few of the choices that Dave had in his head. The drawing also gave a decent visual in how things relate to each other vs. a supplied geometry chart. It was what Dave came up with after distilling down not only the hard numbers I provided but also answers I provided to several questions about my riding style, terrain, etc.

I did NOT go and get a fitting beforehand. To be honest I'm somewhat skeptical of a number of the "experts" that use some of the systems and go off the charts to the exclusion of looking at and listening to the person on the bike that they're trying to help. But that's a subject for another thread.

[FlashUNC]

The answer is, it depends.

If you're close on fit, you really won't need much beyond some basics. You already have a good foundation to tweak from if need be.

If you're way off and have some oddball fit or fit issues, then yeah, it'll need to be more extensive with probably a more in-depth discussion. Do you need a Retul or Guru or some other fit with lasers and all that if you basically know your numbers? I don't think so.

All the conversations for my frames have been fairly straightforward, because the fit I have works, and left some of the tweaks of the geometry to the builder. My Rock Lobster and Della Santa have different figures, and ride differently, but that's also intentional.

In my case, both of those conversations with Roland and Paul were really straightforward -- here are my numbers, and here's what I'd like for your frame to do. We spent more time discussing that latter question than the former.

They both fit great, but they're different, if that makes any sense.

[cadence90]

This is only my experience, and I will not name builders (both are well-known, highly respected, and experienced).

Custom #1 was ordered online, with me supplying all the requested body, etc. measurements in addition to supplying the results of a fitting on a size-cycle at the lbs (i had no experience then, but I don't think the guy was an expert by any means).

The frame arrived, beautiful, and I built it up and rode it for 2 years. I always experienced some level of upper back/neck discomfort, even pain, no matter what stem length/rise; bar position; saddle height; etc. tweaks I did. It hurt, worse than my previous stock craigslist Bridgestone RB-1.

Finally, I decided to buy another custom (#2), but from a relatively local builder. We talked on the phone, arranged the meeting, and he said, "Bring your current bike with you tomorrow." Crap! I had just torn it down to sell the frame/fork. I built it all back up that night, drove up the next day, and he said, "OK, ride up and down the street a few times."

I finished, and he said, "That head tube is way off." We went inside and he grabbed a digital gauge. Sure enough, what was supposed to be a 73 ht (spec'd and on the CAD sheet) was closer closer to 74.5, a bit over.

I ordered the new frame from him, and have ridden that one without any discomfort at all, for over 13 years.

The rule is: if you're going to buy a stock bike, go to different lbs'; try different brand/sizes; buy what feels best; right?

I now think the same applies to custom. I understand that it is not always possible to actually meet your builder in person (my drive was 2.5 hours each way). Nonetheless, I think it is really important to get as close to a real-life visual/feel for the geometry which best suits one, whether that be by meeting the builder, working with a very good fitter, or some other combination.

Some builders (Tom Kellogg comes to mind) request all the normal data plus photographs of the client on his/her bike, in at least three different positions. The good builders can tell a lot by seeing images.

I am an architect, and read drawings for a living: no CAD frame drawing I have ever read stated "neck pain here"....

All that said, nothing will guarantee against an incorrectly cut tube, of course. #1 must have a bad day, or a moment of distraction, and I think that that was an extremely rare event in his experience. Just my bad luck, I guess....

[fuzzalow]

There is a pretty wide range of approaches. It's best to talk with the potential builder to see if you are both comfortable with their process and go from there.

There is a fundamental problem with this approach and it is that it centers around some kind of rapport and communication between a client and a builder, whose skill sets, ability to understand and solve a problem, namely either his own fit & position or to recommend changes, respectively, are both suspect and unknown.

All the comfy cozy talk in the world will achieve nothing if there isn't an understanding and commitment to both identifying and solving a problem. And there is no assurance that such expectation and pressure should be placed on a builder for this knowledge - the builder builds and is neither a fitter nor a coach. And there is no assurance that the client is capable of inculcating the changes if suggested. Because even if a builder is right about sizing up the client to fit into one of his bikes in the way a builder thinks that bike ought to be ridden - there is no gurantee that the client can ride it in the manner prescribed.

I am not picking on your advice specifically but rather cautioning on the fallback to well worn cliches that have no context for specificity with the client subject and therefore is too generalized to even attempt a solution. It is akin to the useless advice of "Get a good fitting from a good fitter". Sounds great but how does someone who doesn't know judge what makes for a good fitter and then, how does he find him?

My answer to the OP: do not place this burden on a custom frame builder. They can help but they cannot really know. And the reason why they cannot know is too much of being a success at comfort and skill riding a sport bicycle depends on the ability of the rider. The best a builder can do is get you maybe halfway in a bicycle chassis sized correct for your morphology. How you fit into it and use it is up to you.

[pdmtong]

^ add to this: need to balance letting the builder build and you being your own advocate for your fit.

[rounder]

My experience with getting a fit from a professional when buying a custom bike was sort of like this (thanks Smiley). I showed up with the bike I had been riding. He measured my knee over the pedal with a plumb bob. He measured my knee angle with a protractor. He measured my seat distance to the stem. He measured m reach to the hoods. It was something like that. Then, he raised my seat by a cm and lowered the stem by 1 cm. He said ride it and see how you like it. I did and it felt good. He said lower the stem 1 cm and see what it does. I did and it strained my back, so went back to where it was.

For me, that is my baseline for fitting my bikes. They all fit fine. The fit cost a couple of hundred but was worth it. I am comfortable on my bikes and have the satisfaction in knowing that they all reasonably fit.

[tigoat]

It makes my head hurt reading all these responses. For me, bike fitting is not an exact science and there is really no right or wrong as long as you are in an acceptable fitting range. How wide your fitting range is will depend on how flexible you are. In most cases, it is like throwing a dart at 3 feet away, as you have to be a very lousy thrower to miss the dart board. If you were truly clueless about your fit then it would make sense to consult someone local who could watch you ride live to help you out even if you were going to buy a custom frame with a remote builder. Don’t be shy to become an expert of your own bike fit, as it may change over time and you might need to be. For an instance, coming out of winter hibernation, I usually prefer to ride with a more upright position, but once I have ridden some serious miles for a month or two I would like to go back to my racy position. In another word, my fit changes all the time and I have learned to how fix it on my own.

[skiezo]

I am sure there are some get fitters in the SF area. There is a shop about 2 hours away from you that is probably one of the best on the west coast.
If you feel like taking a drive out towards the Sacramento area let me know and I can send the info. A few of my friends flew out to order a frame from him and said the frame they received was was the best fitting frame that they have had.

[simonov]

It makes my head hurt reading all these responses. For me, bike fitting is not an exact science and there is really no right or wrong as long as you are in an acceptable fitting range. How wide your fitting range is will depend on how flexible you are. In most cases, it is like throwing a dart at 3 feet away, as you have to be a very lousy thrower to miss the dart board. If you were truly clueless about your fit then it would make sense to consult someone local who could watch you ride live to help you out even if you were going to buy a custom frame with a remote builder. Don’t be shy to become an expert of your own bike fit, as it may change over time and you might need to be. For an instance, coming out of winter hibernation, I usually prefer to ride with a more upright position, but once I have ridden some serious miles for a month or two I would like to go back to my racy position. In another word, my fit changes all the time and I have learned to how fix it on my own.

Agreed. I would also think that by the time someone is getting a custom frame, they have a good enough grasp on their fit needs to articulate that to the builder. I've had some builders ask for body measurements as a way to validate my contact point measurements, but the contact points are what really matter. I certainly wouldn't think any less of a builder for being comfortable using just those measurements and I wouldn't expect a builder to go through an extensive fitting process unless that was discussed as part of the package and unless I was interested in, or needing, a change in my fit.