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Birddog
03-16-2016, 08:37 AM
I was at a social event where a fellow cyclist (stranger to me) started extolling the virtues of red beet juice. He went on and on citing studies and tests but mostly his own anecdotal evidence that this is the new EPO but legal and safe.
I'm skeptical of claims like this and I searched it here and there was nothing much on this subject, and little new. So, has anyone tried it and what are your anecdotal results. According to this guy it improved performance and helped in post ride recovery.
TIA

MattTuck
03-16-2016, 08:45 AM
What?

Did he work for the American Sugar Beet Grower's Association (https://americansugarbeet.org/)?

ptourkin
03-16-2016, 08:49 AM
Yes. This has been a hot topic for about four years. There is scientific evidence that the nitrates can improve performance in a TT type activity. I know non-flaky coaches that believe in it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248502

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/using-beet-juice-to-improve-performance

Commercial preparations like BeetElite are pretty common at crits around here.

https://neogenissport.com/

scharny
03-16-2016, 08:55 AM
And if you drink a lot of it after a really long ride and forget that you did this, the next morning you just might freak out and think that you ruptured something and have internal bleeding, because of the fact that it dyes everything that comes out of you blood red.

Not that this has ever happened to me, mind you.

MattTuck
03-16-2016, 09:03 AM
Mods, can you can combine this with the other thread? Sky's "Secret" hehehe. :help::help: ;) (joking, obviously)

Am I reading that study right? over a 10km time trial, the beet juice saves you about 12 seconds, plus or minus 18 seconds?

If only Tony Martin had been drinking beet juice for yesterday's TT at the Tirreno-Adriatico.

JStonebarger
03-16-2016, 09:27 AM
All joking aside, Andy Coggan thinks it works, and generally he seems to know what he's talking about.

https://source.wustl.edu/2015/09/beet-juice-boosts-muscle-power-in-heart-patients/

If you're interested, Beet It makes the concentrate used in most studies on athletes:

http://www.beet-it.us/

joosttx
03-16-2016, 09:38 AM
My experience is that it does help. I doubt its epo equivlanet.

velomonkey
03-16-2016, 09:39 AM
I juice it with carrots and ginger - tastes good and you pee rainbows. Been juicing it for years and my juicing goes in fits and starts. Often I'll throw it down for a big ride or race - more for placebo than anything.

Unless you are a wicked strong CAT II it will do absolutely zero for your TT times. Yes, Zero. Nothing.

If you're a fit CAT II then sure give it some consideration though it aint gonna be a panacea. Anyone else: just ride your bike more and watch what you eat.

Saying it's EPO is comical and, frankly, wicked naive.

sandyrs
03-16-2016, 09:58 AM
Mods, can you can combine this with the other thread? Sky's "Secret" hehehe. :help::help: ;) (joking, obviously)

Am I reading that study right? over a 10km time trial, the beet juice saves you about 12 seconds, plus or minus 18 seconds?

If only Tony Martin had been drinking beet juice for yesterday's TT at the Tirreno-Adriatico.

Hey, with that margin of error it might also cost you six seconds!

JStonebarger
03-16-2016, 10:18 AM
Unless you are a wicked strong CAT II it will do absolutely zero for your TT times. Yes, Zero. Nothing.

Why do you say that? I haven't read all the literature, but what I've seen seemed to suggest that it was at least as effective with less trained riders (and heart patients, for that matter).

velomonkey
03-16-2016, 10:55 AM
Why do you say that? I haven't read all the literature, but what I've seen seemed to suggest that it was at least as effective with less trained riders (and heart patients, for that matter).

Improvements to performance are not linear. It's like the whole aero claim or anything else. Does beet juice allow more oxygen to flow to muscles - probably - is that going to have a direct effect on the time of a CAT IV TT? Not likely. Or, if it does, it will be de minimis. So many other variables to examine to get faster at that level.

JStonebarger
03-16-2016, 11:08 AM
Improvements to performance are not linear. It's like the whole aero claim or anything else...

Aero equipment helps the 18mph TTer as much as the 30mph TTer. Sorry, but the math doesn't lie.

Beet juice helps heart patients get out of chairs and climb stairs: https://source.wustl.edu/2015/09/beet-juice-boosts-muscle-power-in-heart-patients/ (That's Andy Coggan on the left, btw, co-author of Training and Racing with a Power Meter). It's hard for me to imagine that it wouldn't help a beginning cyclist.

I don't recommend beet juice instead of training; short of that I can't see what it would hurt for any rider to try it.

MattTuck
03-16-2016, 11:11 AM
Aero equipment helps the 18mph TTer as much as the 30mph TTer. Sorry, but the math doesn't lie.



I'd like to see this math. I've always understood the rate of aero advantages to increase in magnitude as the speed increases, due to some laws of physics.

ie. The power required to increase speed from 18mph to 19mph is different than that required to go from 28mph to 29mph. So, an aero advantage at higher speeds saves more energy.

JStonebarger
03-16-2016, 11:21 AM
I'd like to see this math. I've always understood the rate of aero advantages to increase in magnitude as the speed increases, due to some laws of physics.

ie. The power required to increase speed from 18mph to 19mph is different than that required to go from 28mph to 29mph. So, an aero advantage at higher speeds saves more energy.

Dave Ryan did a nice job of explaining it on Slowtwitch:

Basically the longer you're out there on the course the more total seconds you save with the same aerodynamics. But the fast dude still goes faster and even though their total seconds saved isn't as great the overall impact of the aero gear still helps their times tremendously.

As Jack suggested play around with the calculators over at: http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html but the key is to total up the time it takes to ride a fixed length course with a higher and lower CdA. The slow dude still goes slower but saves more total seconds or minutes.

For instance set everything else equal(sea level, 74kg rider, 0 slope, .004 Crr) and use the calculators to show how much time a rider averaging 300 watts takes to cover a 40K course with a CdA of .300 vs. .250 and then how much time a rider averaging 150 watts takes with the same .300 vs. .250 CdA.

300 watt rider:
.300 CdA ~58.9 minutes
.250 CdA ~55.6 minutes

Time savings ~ 3.3 minutes

150 watt rider:
.300 CdA ~76 minutes
.250 CdA ~71.8 minutes

Time savings ~ 4.2 minutes

The fast rider always goes faster but the slower rider saves more minutes with the same drop in CdA

-Dave

(http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Aero_advantage_-_30km/h_avg_rider_vs._40km/h_avg_rider_P4404332/?search_string=aero%20advantage%20for%20slow%20rid ers#p4404332)

And again, analyticcycling.com is a great resource.

azrider
03-16-2016, 11:29 AM
At last crit i saw a pro team passing this around.......it even has a cyclist on the can so.......theres that........


https://neogenissport.com/app/uploads/2015/11/BE_022916_497px.png

nooneline
03-16-2016, 11:32 AM
http://s3-static-ak.buzzfed.com/static/2014-04/campaign_images/webdr06/16/1/59-life-lessons-dwight-k-schrute-taught-us-2-29354-1397624978-0_dblbig.jpg

skiezo
03-16-2016, 11:35 AM
I have been juicing for a long time. I remember I did a juice with beets as my main juice,something like 70% beet and the rest fruits and veggies.
It made my resting heart rate faster by about 15 BPM and my pressure soar and the effects lasted for over and hour. It has something to do with the nitrates but I forget all the particulars.
If I do beets in a juice mix now it is in the 15% of the total and I use orange instead of dark reds.
It my have just been me but it scared the crap out of me.

velomonkey
03-16-2016, 11:41 AM
Aero equipment helps the 18mph TTer as much as the 30mph TTer. Sorry, but the math doesn't lie.

:butt: - my fastest time on my-ten-times a year TT course was done on 32 spoke wheels and not my 50mm aero wheels - results don't lie either so there is always that, too.

I advocate no training: beet juice and aero wheels.

CampyorBust
03-16-2016, 12:03 PM
Beets - they make me pee funny, not just color but something malfunctions, a bit like a James May fizzy feeling but not in a good way and no Ferrari.

Last time I had beet juice years ago, I was looking forward to chowin down on my quinoa burgah but was suddenly interrupted and was privileged enough to listen to improv lecture on the difference between trash, recycling and compost (or compoahst as it was pronounced at the time). Some place called Alfalfas I think, somehow it’s turning into a Boulder themed day. BTW their quinoa burgahs are the shiznitz!

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/PedalPusher33/Beets_zpsbppfohuh.jpg

doomridesout
03-16-2016, 01:53 PM
Anecdotally, it's one of the only supplements or nutritional choices I've "felt" on the road. I think it's no BS. I've been able to go a speed that makes conversation hard and still talk in complete sentences.

stephenmarklay
03-16-2016, 02:02 PM
Pretty quick the anti doping crew will arrive.

kgreene10
03-16-2016, 05:04 PM
I used Beet Elite for a while a few years ago until an unfortunate incident at the Tour of the Gila ITT. I drank my juice, as normal, before the event with plenty of time. But perhaps the altitude confounded the usual digestion.

I went out too hard as one is want to do in an ITT and by the top of the first climb, I puked red beet juice all over myself. I spent the next few miles trying to wipe it from my face because, in my hypoxic state, I was convinced that the officials at the turnaround would think I was hemorraging and pull me from the race.

In the end, I made it around just fine. I was slower than I had hoped but still beat my buddy and bounced back for the final two stages.

But, no more beets for me.

velomonkey
03-16-2016, 05:06 PM
In the end, I made it around just fine. I was slower than I had hoped but still beat my buddy and bounced back for the final two stages.

But, no more beets for me.

There is a saying: You can't beat your buddy unless you puke beets on your body.

CNY rider
03-16-2016, 07:17 PM
I married a Russian woman.
She makes me borscht.
I don't feel any faster.
But if you come to Dirtphalt this year and you want to give it a try we'll hook you up.:beer: