Why Buy a 4k frame . . . an examination and explanation

[velomonkey]

So having the founders of Firefly speaker to my class next week. Class is on entrepreneurship. I wanted to give them an idea as to why someone would buy a $4,000 custom frame and why the market exists.

To help prep them I quickly threw together a deck for the class - I came up with the theory and put together the deck in less than 30 minutes so it's not perfect, but if you want to check it out you can. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b46taqdd6hhw6dk/firefly.pdf?dl=0) (link goes to dropbox so you can view or download a pdf version) My decks are picture rich and get walked through and not talked to, but from a high-level it goes something like this:


Explanation of the 4 types of frame materials
Cannondale CAAD is the best dollar to performance
How do we get to where a dude will pay 4k just for the frame
Let's discuss bike racing
The Sport is filled with drama and intrigue, it's also a sport where appearance matters, we're also number dorks
The distinction between Eddy's steel bikes and Lance carbon bikes are striking
If you're a big fan of the sport you have two choices: plastic and custom made from some type of metal (some carbon), but the custom market exists because it plays into the drama, appearance and history of the sport we all love
Bike Porn

[CDollarsign]

Maybe some bros are just mad rich?

[skiezo]

With my body geometry I find it difficult to get a frame that will fit me properly.
Also there are certain ride characteristics that I want out of my bikes.
Going custom i am fairly certain I will get what I am looking for as far as fit and ride quality.
I like a mild slope to the TT as I have shorter legs and a longer torso so standover will fit my needs.
A good builder will build to the type of riding and ride characteristics by material choice and geometry best suited to the individual.
My last custom carbon frame was well below the 4k mark and it fits me to a tee and the ride quality is what I was looking for.

[velomonkey]

Maybe some bros are just mad rich?

Some are, true, but with people cashing in 401ks to buy a BAUM it sure aint that.

Desire and true disposable income are 2 distinct buying variables.

[joosttx]

They are much cheaper than a porsche turbo.

[ltwtsculler91]

I think you're missing the critical points for some people: fit and feel

Fit is definitely objective, it is like getting an off the rack suit versus tailored. Sure I can get a very good quality suit from somewhere like Brooks Brothers (CAAD) or J.Press (SuperSix Evo) but having one custom made by a reputable tailor will fit me EXACTLY as I desire or is recommended with no compromises. Due to proportions or flexibility some people NEED a custom bike to really fit them well as stock manufacturers require too many compromises for a perfect fit.

Feel is subjective, but with a skilled builder you can definitely tune the ride qualities to the type of bike you desire which isn't available on a stock bike. Maybe you want the geo of an aggressive race bike, but with a softer smooth ride of an endurance bike. Custom allows this option.

[RedRider]

I might need another cup of coffee but if I understand your presentation...
You are inviting one of the top framebuilders to speak to your class and you are marginalize their product, custom frames?

[bcroslin]

They are much cheaper than a porsche turbo.

This is EXACTLY what I keep telling my wife

[bobswire]

Very cool,as they say a picture(s) is worth a thousand(s) words. You almost sold me a $4000 frame until I looked at my bank account.

[sandyrs]

Noticed a typo on the Ten Dam bloody face slide. It says "times outs" instead of "time outs."

I think there is one slide too many showing bloodied riders. You could maybe replace one of those slides with a shot of two sprinters leaning into each other, shoulder-to-shoulder. There is certainly no shortage of drama in cycling and I understand a lot of it is hard to capture in a still frame but that shot could work.

I would not write "made in Asia plastic" immediately followed by "hand made custom." Asian-manufactured *carbon* (calling it plastic to a bunch of cycling outsiders gives a distinctly negative connotation, which may be the point of your presentation, but I don't think it is) is also hand-made. Your shot literally shows two human beings working on the frames by hand. I would call it "mass-produced carbon" vs "small shop custom" or something less loaded. You could also include something showing marketing materials from large bike manufacturers touting the stiffness and weight of their bikes versus a shot of a rider getting fitted for a custom- something to show the difference in the experience of off-the-shelf vs custom.

I'm assuming Firefly will let you use photos of other bikes of theirs, considering they post them to Flickr. It might be nice to include a shot of some other bikes of theirs along with yours to show the range of sizes, paint, purposes, etc. that Firefly produces.

Overall this looks like a great presentation! If any of your students are into bikes or get into bikes later in life, they will look back fondly on getting to attend this talk.

[velomonkey]

I think you're missing the critical points for some people: fit and feel



Good point: I did cover that, though. When I went over the stuff about cobbles I talked about how the 'ride' of a bike does matter - you might not go faster, per se, but the bike itself will be a totally different experience. Talked about box rim tubulars and carbon clinchers and that plays into the whole "feel" aspect and that some carbon frames have missed those targets.

[velomonkey]

I would not write "made in Asia plastic" immediately followed by "hand made custom." Asian-manufactured *carbon* (calling it plastic to a bunch of cycling outsiders gives a distinctly negative connotation, which may be the point of your presentation, but I don't think it is) is also hand-made. Your shot literally shows two human beings working on the frames by hand. I would call it "mass-produced carbon" vs "small shop custom" or something less loaded. You could also include something showing marketing materials from large bike manufacturers touting the stiffness and weight of their bikes versus a shot of a rider getting fitted for a custom- something to show the difference in the experience of off-the-shelf vs custom.


Oh it was totally loaded!!! I use a lot of analogies when I instruct: I told them it's analogous to mass produced bread or small-batch, wood-fire baked, hand kneaded bread: both are bread and have the same nutritional value and both can make a sandwich - but each is a unique product.

For homework they have to look at this site

https://donalrey.exposure.co/firefly-bicycles

He has a lot of shots of the fit - they were really surprised to hear not everyone goes to firefly and gets a fit.

[FlashUNC]

Sport of Kings is, if anything, the exact opposite of what the sport has always been. Its more or less always been the sport of the commoner.

And ease up on the crash porn.

[bicycletricycle]

The more one learns about any topic, the more likely it is that their tastes become exotic or esoteric.

[velomonkey]

I might need another cup of coffee but if I understand your presentation...
You are inviting one of the top framebuilders to speak to your class and you are marginalize their product, custom frames?

Not sure 'marginalize' is the word - at all - they are students not into bikes - an ikea table is a table, so why would anyone buy a hand-made table for 10 times the cost - if I explain that I'm not marginalizing anything.

I don't want to just say "because."

[velomonkey]

Sport of Kings is, if anything, the exact opposite of what the sport has always been. Its more or less always been the sport of the commoner.


Sport of Kings was a joke. Crash Porn was in there only inasmuch as I have hockey players in my class - PC won the D1 championships last year - most 220 pound hockey players don't consider bike racers tough - at all. It was to sell up that and the drama, but I get ya.

[Bob Ross]

we're also number dorks

I don't think that statement needs the qualifier.

[rwsaunders]

Not a negative comment but you asked for a critique of your presentation so here goes...

I'd venture to say that most of those $4K frames end up as what, $8-10K bikes? That's the story which needs to be discussed with your students. I also don't fully understand the heavy emphasis on racing in your presentation, unless there are statistics that link an interest in racing to the primary reason for buying an exotic/high end bike.

I see a discussion around a highly skilled fabricator of a luxury product selling to a consumer that is more likely to purchase luxury goods than a link to a bicycle racing fan. This type of consumer just happens to have an interest in riding bikes, and most likely the balance of the goods that they own...car, home, clothes are representative of their lifestyle and income as well.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/250745

PS for the record, I ride Veloflex tubulars when I could ride Vittoria Rally's.

[benb]

You are going to offend some people with the Asian Made Plastic comment. Just because they've scaled it up doesn't in any way mean they are less skilled or less passionate than Seven or Firefly or whoever, and anyone who sees your presentation who is Asian could be offended.

The whole thing is also weird since you yourself are in the slides as an example of someone buying a $4k frame. It comes off as you trying to prove something to people? Why not leave yourself out of it?

I agree with the above comment. There is less connection to racing than ever with these super expensive custom frames. They are not being used at the upper levels of racing, they get sporadically used in amateur racing & a very few lower level pros. They mostly get ridden by recreational riders like us who are trying to differentiate themselves through their consumer choices. The custom shops/builders/companies are better than your typical bike shop at figuring out what people need, no doubt about that, so if someone wants to differentiate themselves and hasn't worked out their fit particularly well on stock bikes (and I argue this is hard for lots of people) the custom bike route can be a big shortcut. (Which might actually be worth the extra money in and of itself.)

I get the idea, I put a deposit on a $4k custom Ti frame myself a few months ago, and then backed out and bought a $2k "Asian made plastic" frame instead. It has been a big mental debate for me but in the end the $4k frame seemed very much a luxury item.

Pro $4k Custom frame:


I do have an oddball fit, I am your classic T-Rex, all legs, not much torso, and my upper spine is curved a little which exacerbates it
I do strongly perceive the Ti frames as being the most durable with the most possibility of riding the bike for a very long time.


I asked for my deposit back for several reasons:

$2k is a lot extra when you have a family and other concerns and the benefit of the $2k is mostly intangible. I was mostly on the fence to begin with but family events just pushed me over the edge. Not spending that $2k allowed me to eliminate some other concerns instead.
Can get the exact same fit on the plastic bike once I got myself past the idea of using a +17 stem. It doesn't look as good to my eye but it's just looks. No real difference in ride or handling. The Custom bike was going to have 8mm more stack or something and get ridden with 10mm of spacers and a +6 stem, the carbon bike gets ridden with 20mm of spacers and a +17 stem. Both were going to be pointing up, the 11 degrees isn't that big of a difference actually. You don't necessarily get the flat slammed stem on a custom bike even when you're built like me apparently.
Other than head tube length I was able to find a stock bike that is incredibly close to the custom bike. Same length chainstays. Essentially same top tube length. Same trail. Front center within 1cm.
I got to demo ride an example of the $4k custom frame that was set up to fit like mine would have (~50 miles). The stock bike rides & handles better. Both were good, but the stock bike is better. Much more compliant, much stiffer in the BB, much more lateral stiffness when cornering hard. My custom bike would have probably come out more compliant and less stiff than the demo bike I rode, putting it even further behind the stock bike I bought I think. Then the stock bike is somewhere in the 1-2lb lighter range AFAICT.
For the second time I went down the custom route, the custom guys still didn't get a good fit spec for me. I went in complaining about one thing, they made a pretty big change to my position and caused another problem. Initial problem was more than likely not fit, just the lack of quality of the bike I was riding. They aren't perfect either. I was actually semi-upset about the cost of the custom fitting too. Most expensive fitting I ever had and the tape measure never even came out, just eyeball stuff, essentially the same thing you get at a bike shop just with a more experienced eye. I could have gotten a Retul fit or any of the other high tech stuff for that price. (That fitting would have been credited towards the custom bike of course.) At least in this case I think the custom bike still would have been great, it wasn't off enough to have not been a perfect bike, it just wouldn't have had the contact points right out of the box the way they promised.

[sandyrs]

Oh it was totally loaded!!! I use a lot of analogies when I instruct: I told them it's analogous to mass produced bread or small-batch, wood-fire baked, hand kneaded bread: both are bread and have the same nutritional value and both can make a sandwich - but each is a unique product.

For homework they have to look at this site

https://donalrey.exposure.co/firefly-bicycles

He has a lot of shots of the fit - they were really surprised to hear not everyone goes to firefly and gets a fit.

I didn't realize there were other components to the presentation- I thought this was the first the students would be learning about Firefly. Gotcha.

I would second the point that racing is only a small aspect of what inspires people to buy a Firefly or other custom domestically-produced metal bike. The most impressive Firefly bikes, to me, are their all-rounders, rando bikes, and highly integrated utility bikes (this coming from someone who races, I should note).

Overall I know it's very difficult to present a coherent explanation of something that it takes many of us years of experience to realize is worth considering.

[tv_vt]

Have not looked at link, but read your OP.

I agree with those who've said you're too focused on racing. Why even bother with Lance and Eddy? I would bet that most custom frames are not raced in USCF events. Fit and Feel are indeed prime motivators. Also there is no doubt a bit of " I can afford this, so why not? I've always wanted a 'custom, built for me' frame."

Ask Firefly folks the average age of their buyers. I would again bet it's over 50yo, or very close to it.

You're also ignoring the touring/rando crowd, it seems. Look at Eric Estlund's Winter Bicycles page here and notice all the fancy touring bikes he's building, with racks, lights, 650 wheels, etc. Those aren't race bikes, unless you count brevets as races maybe. And Pegoretti, Sachs, Goodrich, Kirk, Hampsten, etc - I'd bet most of those bikes aren't raced USCF.

The only racing categories where I'd expect to see a few customs are Masters categories, and even then I wouldn't plan on seeing many. Customs are too precious to race imo. (But I haven't stood at a start line in over a 1.5 decades, so maybe I'm clueless, too. Just going on what I see in my 'hood.)


PS. "If you're a big fan of the sport you have two choices: plastic and custom made from some type of metal (some carbon), but the custom market exists because it plays into the drama, appearance and history of the sport we all love ." Disagree --- there seems to be a huge market for used steel and ti frames. "Big fans of the sport" love classic steel, and lust after well made titanium, too. And you're ignoring the big return of aluminum - Gaulzetti to name one, but Spooky, Rock Lobster, and more. It's definitely in the game these days.

[velomonkey]

You are going to offend some people with the Asian Made Plastic comment. Just because they've scaled it up doesn't in any way mean they are less skilled or less passionate than Seven or Firefly or whoever, and anyone who sees your presentation who is Asian could be offended.

The whole thing is also weird since you yourself are in the slides as an example of someone buying a $4k frame. It comes off as you trying to prove something to people? Why not leave yourself out of it?

I agree with the above comment. There is less connection to racing than ever with these super expensive custom frames. They are not being used at the upper levels of racing, they get sporadically used in amateur racing & a very few lower level pros.

Distinction between actually racing a custom bike and being a fan of the sport and the product(s) used in the sport - both current and historically. In fact, I actually said "you get to be my age and you have more money than speed" - was not at all implying the products are used exclusively for racing - though they can bet and are.

As for myself being in there - fully disagree. Entrepreneurship especially is best taught from people who have done it - versus tenured professors who have only ever been in academia. Furthermore who better to explain a customer rational than the customers themselves. I read a lot of HBS case studies and often they get it wrong. Direct experience matters.

[sparky33]

And ease up on the crash porn.

Agreed.
The crash gore is off-message to the point of distraction - you will turn your audience away with that. I also don't think any industry person wants that to be their introduction.

[velomonkey]

I would second the point that racing is only a small aspect of what inspires people to buy a Firefly or other custom domestically-produced metal bike. The most impressive Firefly bikes, to me, are their all-rounders, rando bikes, and highly integrated utility bikes (this coming from someone who races, I should note).


I brought up the Randos, gravel bikes and others, but since I'm not that market I was going to have firefly speak to it, but I for sure made mention of it.

I spoke to my market which was I still wanted a race/worthy bike but I wanted one that went to the prior days when there was some artisanal and bespoke aspect to frame.

[velomonkey]

Agreed.
The crash gore is off-message to the point of distraction - you will turn your audience away with that. I also don't think any industry person wants that to be their introduction.

Fair enough - will for sure edit it for future use, like I said put it together VERY last minute (cause I was gonna bring in my bike and couldn't). Hoogerland to me is less about the crash and more about the story of him finishing the stage and getting the polka dot jersey and there drama that the sport has. But I get ya.

Thanks for looking at it.

[nm87710]

i also don't fully understand the heavy emphasis on racing in your presentation, unless there are statistics that link an interest in racing to the primary reason for buying an exotic/high end bike.

I see a discussion around a highly skilled fabricator of a luxury product selling to a consumer that is more likely to purchase luxury goods than a link to a bicycle racing fan. This type of consumer just happens to have an interest in riding bikes, and most likely the balance of the goods that they own...car, home, clothes are representative of their lifestyle and income as well.

+1

[sparky33]

They are much cheaper than a porsche turbo.

Houston gets it.

The thought process of suburban joe rider (i.e. typical customer) is this: I work hard, I take care of my family, I deserve something special, I like bikes...what is the coolest bike I can imagine. Done.
Could you insert a picture of a hard-working fit dad somewhere?

It is not that off-the-shelf carbon etc bikes are ill suited - really they are just fine... even ideal when it comes to actual racing.

[MattTuck]

I think you're giving them a taste of some of what cycling is. It is tough to take 100+ years of sport and equipment and condense it down to a quick deck. You should talk about the bottom bracket wars. ;)


You're going to miss stuff, so I don't have a problem with what you've included.

I do think that there comes a point in a cyclist's life where he (or she) says "Do I want something off the shelf? or something custom?" There are $4,000 stock frames and some people are happy to buy and ride them. I don't think the $4,000 mark is relevant when it comes to the idea of a custom, since there are custom options available for under $2K. And I think that the $1,800 custom buyer has more in common with other custom buyers (at any price point) than the guy spending $10K for a top of the line off the shelf product.

I didn't see in the slides anything about the custom process (waitlist, not immediate gratification, anticipatory utility, picking colors, picking other details, etc.) that are different from buying a bike off the shelf.

To me, those are the relevant topics to explore if you're looking at the custom frame market in particular.

[fuzzalow]

Your class. Your call. Teach it the way you want. Teach it the way you know how.

There is more to the presentation than just the slide pictorials. Publishing your lecture outline and notes might have helped.

I do agree that the racing aspect of bicycling and the gore is overemphasized. And the singular contradiction between entrepreneurship and artisanship is an ongoing conundrum to specifying and defining the core value proposition underlying the venture. Hard to be an entrepreneur when you lack the ability to scale or the capacity to create or redefine a genre.

Good luck with your presentation and I wish I could attend.

[Ralph]

You're making some assumptions I would not make.

Small US custom better than mass produced Asian.....How do you know that is so? It sounds logical...but is it true?

Pro's race on cheap throw away stuff....if it works and fits....not on super expensive stuff.

Maybe it's just me....but I get the "tone" as somehow a high price tag somehow makes it better. And many times it doesn't.

Some bike snobbery here? I know it's not your intent....but is that what the class will feel?

[palincss]

Explanation of the 4 types of frame materials
Cannondale CAAD is the best dollar to performance
How do we get to where a dude will pay 4k just for the frame
Let's discuss bike racing
The Sport is filled with drama and intrigue, it's also a sport where appearance matters, we're also number dorks
The distinction between Eddy's steel bikes and Lance carbon bikes are striking
If you're a big fan of the sport you have two choices: plastic and custom made from some type of metal (some carbon), but the custom market exists because it plays into the drama, appearance and history of the sport we all love
Bike Porn


Clearly, the sport of which you speak is racing. A good part of the custom market has nothing at all to do with racing, and much to do with the fact that there are many kinds of bicycles that have not been well represented in the local bike shop.

[velomonkey]

Clearly, the sport of which you speak is racing. A good part of the custom market has nothing at all to do with racing, and much to do with the fact that there are many kinds of bicycles that have not been well represented in the local bike shop.

Fully agree. I grok you.

[jh_on_the_cape]

This can come full circle, the more one participates in an activity, the more one comes to realize what are needs and what are wants.

The more one learns about any topic, the more likely it is that their tastes become exotic or esoteric.

[benb]

Clearly, the sport of which you speak is racing. A good part of the custom market has nothing at all to do with racing, and much to do with the fact that there are many kinds of bicycles that have not been well represented in the local bike shop.

This definitely should be a major point in the presentation.. the small guys seem to adapt to new things much much faster and are able to offer a much wider diversity in the style of bikes they offer.

Things that they seem to have gotten done way way faster and with less nonsense:

- Integrating Electronic shifting cleanly
- Disc brakes (without oddball BBs or hub designs)
- Big tire clearances
- Endurance type geometries (comes as part of custom)
- Adventure/Mixed terrain geometries

Part of their advantage is surely that they can seemingly build a new style of bike basically in the time of their lead/build time.

It'd be interesting to know what the turnaround time is for a new design that gets built in Asia. Does it take Big S or Trek a year, 2 years, more from idea to the factories in Asia turning out the bike? Seems like it to me I guess. They might produce a better bike in the end if it fits you but you're going to wait for years for it.

The big one for me that seemed to take forever is I basically could fit on stock bikes with quill stems for the most part. Once they switched over to threadless it seems like it essentially took almost 10 years before they were making bikes that fit the same range of people again. Small builders got that figured out way faster.

[Climb01742]

For me, a big part of the appeal of a Firefly and other small builders (David Kirk comes to mind, too) is how finely and beautifully crafted their frames are. The craftsmanship, the patience, the details and sheer skill are a large part of the lure. Not snobbery, not elitism, not cost -- just how amazingly well crafted they are. It's akin to extraordinary wood furniture or paintings.

Years ago I worked with Volvo at a time when they were trying to evolve their brand beyond safety. They wanted to be seen as a 'premium' brand. And they went to the default meaning of premium: luxury. And decided that they needed to be seen as a luxury brand to be a premium brand. Oh, the arguments we had. Because the true and most fundamental definition of a 'premium' brand is pretty simple and wide: A brand people will pay a premium for. Historically, Porsche has been a premium car brand and folks paid a premium for speed, not luxury. Apple is a premium brand...a premium paid for design and ease of use, not luxury. Hinckley boats are premium...for their craftsmanship and design.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying you may be overlooking one of the strongest reasons folks pay a premium for a hand crafted custom frame...because it's a beautifully crafted object that works beautifully. Yes, there are other components to why we may want one, but maybe the most intrinsic one, especially for a Firefly, is the craft.

[seanile]

I also don't think any industry person wants that to be their introduction.^. and have you talked with firefly about what you're presenting? it'd probably be good to have all parties on the same page so they're not thrown by questions they weren't expecting, but were ultimately led to by your presentation.

[Ti Designs]

They are much cheaper than a porsche turbo.

Per pound they're not...

I think it's more accurate to say that for $4K they can have the best of something.

[velomonkey]

^. and have you talked with firefly about what you're presenting? it'd probably be good to have all parties on the same page so they're not thrown by questions they weren't expecting, but were ultimately led to by your presentation.

I guess I should have given a caveat if you're looking at the picture-heavy deck and not getting my lecture with it you're gonna paint it the way the pictures lead you - the accompanying lecture goes differently.

Questions students asked:

How much financing have they had, who is their competition, did they speak with VCs, can we see a bike, what channels aside social do they use to market, do all the customers come in to get fitted (then we were done for the day).

Racing questions and specifically crash questions were not even remotely on their mind. I'm more than confident the salient points were addressed and the crash porn was received not as a main point but a point to buttress the drama and mystique of the sport and the equipment.

Thanks for reading.

[texbike]

The more one learns about any topic, the more likely it is that their tastes become exotic or esoteric.

Like espresso/coffee? ;)

This can come full circle, the more one participates in an activity, the more one comes to realize what are needs and what are wants.

Agreed. I've personally found this to be the case in cars, bikes, and coffee. None of which are really needs.

Oh, and to stay on topic, I disagree on a few of your points Velo, but it's cool that you're doing a presentation on the cycling industry for your class.
I hope that it goes well. I'm sure that most of your class won't be as knowledgeable or as opinionated about the industry as we are here....

Texbike

[AngryScientist]

Oh, and to stay on topic, I disagree on a few of your points Velo, but it's cool that you're doing a presentation on the cycling industry for your class.
I hope that it goes well. I'm sure that most of your class won't be as knowledgeable or as opinionated about the industry as we are here....

Texbike

Yes, this i agree with. The deck is the deck - it gets the conversation started and adds some visual stimulation. If velomonkey were teaching a class on how to start a bespoke framebuilding business in particular - many of the comments in this thread would be relevant, but he's not. He's offering Firefly's experience as a successful small biz to the class, and unless there are some other serious cyclists in the room, the details of racing, randeneuring and sport touring really dont matter.

should be a good and interesting lecture and interaction, let us know how it goes!

[seanile]

Questions students asked:
...
Thanks for reading.
cool cool, i agree without knowing the vocal track it's hard to judge what the real takeaways would be for the audience. sounds like your kids are focusing on the rights stuff.
i was an entrepreneurship & marketing major at northeastern and am good friends with the FF guys, so the idea of this talk is really intriguing to me. hope it goes well for you.

[sitzmark]

Maybe clarify that the 4 predominant frame materials are steel, alu, Ti, and carbon fiber. Wood - specifically bamboo - fiberglass, paper, and other "exotic" materials are/have been used and experimented with.

Regardless of desired intent/effect, referring to carbon as "asian plastic" may create a false understanding of the manufacturing/construction process between a metal based frame and a carbon fiber frame. CF frames made in Asia are not injection-molded, as is the typical understanding of how plastic items are made. CF frames (currently) require hands-on manual CF layup regardless of origin. The process of creating a CF frame may (or may not) be as exacting as fitting metal-based tubing together. Depicting an asian assembly line building up frames and parts into a complete (shippable) bike is not analogous to manufacturing of a frameset - except possibly robotic mig welding of metal-based frames.

The market for custom frames, regardless of cost, reflects an appreciation for craftsmanship (as previously stated), celebrations of accomplishment (life accomplishments, sport, etc), performance tweaking/personalization, and yes even conspicuous consumption. The market for custom bicycles is not unlike custom homes, cabinets, hand-made suits/clothing, jewelry, automobiles, tools, etc. A motivated entrepreneur can find a niche in any product market to supply, and the motivations of buyers will almost always be as diverse and overlapping as those of bicycle frame customers.

[RedRider]

If class is composed of aspiring entrepreneurs why not focus on the business of bicycles? Who are the people making the bikes and why are they making their specific product?
Firefly is an excellent example of a a small group with a vision and how they execute their business model. Trace their history with IF and how they got where they are. Not with opinion but rather circumstance/opportunity. Compare the small, handmade builders with the Big Guys. What challenges are their in the bike building/selling business? Who are the success stories? Why did some fail?

[KWalker]

I didn't pay $4k for my bike, but its easy to understand why someone with money could:

-It rides well.
-It looks great.
-If anything ever malfunctions or needs warranty repairs I can probably drive or ride 10min and find a dealer.

Lots of other custom or fancy bikes also tick those boxes too, sure, but many of them approach the cost or greatly exceed the cost of what a customer that has a generous shop would sell them a frame for.

Lets be real, as the for sale section of this board shows, no one keeps a "forever" bike for that long. Or maybe they rarely do. Stock geometry is easy to re-sell and Trek H1 and S-Works have great resale value. They oddly depreciate far less than many other frames.

[bking]

They are much cheaper than a porsche turbo.

No it's not, not if you buy enough of them.https://bking.smugmug.com/Tour-de-Bike/My-Bikes/i-9j9SVTQ/0/L/my%20bikes%20034-L.jpg

[sparky33]

The story I see here is really about running a small business that taps into the growing custom hand-made consumer culture, be it bikes, dress-shirts or handbags. There are high-quality off-the-shelf substitutes, but how does a business demonstrate premium value while maintaining viable production?

It would be fascinating to understand the specific strategies Firefly chooses to create what looks to be a perennially relevant and successful enterprise.

[buddybikes]

This discussion is weird. This is an enterpreneal class - tyler et al created from almost day 1 a mystic BRAND. So this is fantastic marketing strategy. 2 they agreed on a clear business plan - custom bicycles, don't grow just because thats what businesses do (and often fail) 3. Enjoy what you are doing 4. Develop complete efficient, clean, organized design through complete infrastructure.
(If you see their shop it awes you in comparison to some others). 5. Building perfect team, Tyler - artist and finish welder, Jamie - worlds best machinist (yes I am being overblown here but he is amazing), Kevin - organizer, and top end designer that does get stressed due to weird requests.

If you look at above, this show a fairly complete (except for financial management which of course we don't have insight into) exercise of how to create a successful business. They knew what they wanted to do and executed and didn't do it blindly.

[sparky33]

This is an enterpreneal class - tyler et al created from almost day 1 a mystic BRAND. So this is fantastic marketing strategy.

can FF tell us how they quickly created an audience and then turned that audience into paying customers?...moreso than less successful companies.

[joosttx]

Per pound they're not...

I think it's more accurate to say that for $4K they can have the best of something.

fascinating....

[buddybikes]

Nice little read:http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2013/03/firefly-bicycles-true-story.html

http://www.thebicyclestory.com/2014/05/kevin-wolfson/

They built a marketing plan (even name Firefly) with an outfit that Tyler when to school with. This created the "brand". Realistically - they had a name image with probably a backlog of people that wanted a "real IF" when IF took off to New Hampshire - so that kickstarted them (my guess). Tylers artistry work, then pushed them to differentiate themselves with other equal Ti builders.

Personally I think at times they have gone "too posh" with 3,000 weekends in Vt after foliage season.

Are they a model for real entreprenures that want to be the next twitter, no but if you have a unique skill it does exemply a model that can put decent food on your table rather than eating pnut butter and jelly every day

[msl819]

Sport of Kings is, if anything, the exact opposite of what the sport has always been. Its more or less always been the sport of the commoner.

And ease up on the crash porn.

I thought horse racing was called the Sport of Kings.

[BobbyJones]

I thought horse racing was called the Sport of Kings.

Falconry is.

[makoti]

Because, with as much as "regular" bikes (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) cost, why not pay just a bit more and get something unique? I would never pay those prices for a mass produced bike, but will for a custom.

[tv_vt]

No it's not, not if you buy enough of them.https://bking.smugmug.com/Tour-de-Bike/My-Bikes/i-9j9SVTQ/0/L/my%20bikes%20034-L.jpg

Well, yeah, and especially when they're (let's see what I can recognize) a Pegoretti, a Colnago, a Richard Sachs, and whatever the other ten are...

[benb]

Do you buy that many fancy bikes to compensate for living in a place where the riding is not that great? ;)

[beeatnik]

No it's not, not if you buy enough of them.https://bking.smugmug.com/Tour-de-Bike/My-Bikes/i-9j9SVTQ/0/L/my%20bikes%20034-L.jpg

Bking, I like your City of Excess Stealth Brag Style

[beeatnik]

I think it's more accurate to say that for $4K they can have the best of something.

This is at least half of the psychology/motivation, whether conscious or not.

Anyhoo, some prof at the University of Chicago won a major prize in economics modelling this stuff.

[Mikej]

A $4k custom frame is purchased by somebody who wants to relate to or be associated with the brand. I bought a custom ti frame, it was from a guy I thought was making the best of something I liked. Now I get to relive that feeling whenever somebody on a ride asks me about my 4k custom ti frame. It is like "inverse marketing" - instead of spending a money to advertise a product that isn't that great, but its continually pounded into your face -Firefly make such a great product they don't have to advertise.
The question is, will they ever lose business because they cant make enough frames in a timely enough manner to keep people signing up for the wait? And do they think if they were able to put out frames in 4 weeks, would it remove some of that "mystique" that people want to be associated with? I love a FIREFLY BTW -

[AJM100]

Because, with as much as "regular" bikes (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) cost, why not pay just a bit more and get something unique? I would never pay those prices for a mass produced bike, but will for a custom.

+1 - the cost of mass produced frames with lower end components has increased to the point of making an "investment" in a custom build (and in yourself by extension) an attractive alternative. I would hazard a guess that the market for custom builds is really driven by the baby boomers - translation not competitive or pro cyclists - since they have all the coin for lux goods. A custom build is also more attractive IMO to those who care about what others think (i.e., need to be seen on the latest and greatest status symbol) - they are unique, one of a kind works of art. Then there are always those who just love craftsmanship, the feel and history associated with the sport/building to justify the expense.

[joosttx]

Bking, I like your City of Excess Stealth Brag Style

I like his garage floor-style.

[velomonkey]

I would hazard a guess that the market for custom builds is really driven by the baby boomers - translation not competitive or pro cyclists - since they have all the coin for lux goods. A custom build is also more attractive IMO to those who care about what others think (i.e., need to be seen on the latest and greatest status symbol) - they are unique, one of a kind works of art. Then there are always those who just love craftsmanship, the feel and history associated with the sport/building to justify the expense.

+1: one other note: the deck isn't meant to say why the founders of firefly started firefly - that's for them to say next week when they speak - the deck was meant to say why I, as a middle aged man, decided to buy a 4k custom frame when a $600 American made mass produced aluminum frame was just fine. As Angry noted earlier: it wasn't a deck on why to start a bespoke business - it's to start the conversation and rationalize my 4k purchase as a firefly customer.

Even the title of my OP 'why buy a 4k frame' - I wanted to explain to the students why a market even exists - cause in their limited view they didn't even know there was a market, so if they have that base understanding it makes the conversation with firefly go that much better.

[fuzzalow]

No it's not, not if you buy enough of them.

Bravo. Living well is nice to do.

I'd driven my PCA buddy's Turbo many times on the street and at the track. Looks about the same vintage as your's which is saying a modern, water-cooled AWD Turbo. Fastest car I had ever driven on the street - effortless, virtually unlimited power but most importantly, with the AWD it had grip to utilize its abundantly buxom torque curve. What an enjoyable car, even on the street.

I also drove it on the track (he'd drive mine) and there it was a bit less fun for me in the purist sense - AWD detracts from the feel and response of a track car which, in fairness, was not setup biased towards oversteer as I like a track car to be. But still as fast as you have the nerve & skill to drive it - unbeatable even driven as point 'n squirt. But for me not the true track experience. I'm a NA rear-drive P-car guy.

Pardon on the tangent from the OP.

[velomonkey]

Pardon on the tangent from the OP.

Discussions of driving a Porsche are never a tangent from my posts.

Now to go rev up my poor-man's BMW.

[beeatnik]

I like his garage floor-style.
That is a nice poured surface!

I want to retire in Bking's garage

[msl819]

Falconry is.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O214-sportofkingsthe.html

[Louis]

This is an interesting piece. I don't know how much I believe it, but it is relevant to this discussion.

http://www.luxurydaily.com/why-luxury-brands-should-rely-less-on-aspirational-consumers/

Why luxury brands should rely less on aspirational consumers

There are two types of luxury consumers: The aspirational and the ultra-high-net-worth (UHNW, or the already arrived). The aspirationals are the middle classes and the lower-upper financial stratus.

The fashion industry, cosmetics, skincare, sporting goods, accessories, food and spirits, and other low price-point luxuries depend on the first category for up to 80 percent of their sales.

The private jet companies have only UHNW customers, so they are not as affected by downturns in the economy.

The middle financial groups can save up and buy a $3,000 handbag, but will never pack enough brown paper lunches, or skip enough Starbucks runs, to save up $300 million for a yacht.

[bfd]

+A custom build is also more attractive IMO to those who care about what others think (i.e., need to be seen on the latest and greatest status symbol) - they are unique, one of a kind works of art. Then there are always those who just love craftsmanship, the feel and history associated with the sport/building to justify the expense.

I agree that those who pay $4k+ are looking for both uniqueness and craftsmanship. Someone like Mark DiNucci charges over $5k for one of his framesets, but the workmanship is exquisite.

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Dinucci-cycles-NAHBS-best-lug-lugs-2015-7.jpg

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Dinucci-cycles-NAHBS-best-lug-lugs-2015-6.jpg

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Dinucci-cycles-NAHBS-best-lug-lugs-2015-3.jpg

That chainstay bridge is a work of art and he said it was very difficult to do. He also said that the amount of work he puts into this frameset ends up netting him about $15-17/hour, he's not getting rich for this amazing craftsmanship. It is my understanding that he has like a 6 months or so wait list, which is not much compared to Sachs or Vanilla (6+ years?!). So, if you want to support a craftsman and have the money, DiNucci should be on your short list! Good Luck!

[cnighbor1]

About 40 hours to build a fame At $125 per hour that is $5k
$125 times one years of work or 40 x 52 =2080 hours = $260k per year
No frame builder can work on a frame all those 40 hours per week
Say 20 hours max. or 1/2 $260k or $130k per maximum gross pay
Deduct overhead taxes etc. maybe in a good year he nets $65K
So a $4k frame is a decent price and a bargain
Just be glad persons like David Kirk even builds frames
Charles

[pdmtong]

$4kis what the market is bearing. The cost and time to produce is irrelevant.

I think a more interesting discussion is not the cost in the absolute, but the cost relative to substitutes (other bikes) and alternatives (other sports, other recreation, other luxury).

[Louis]

$4kis what the market is bearing. The cost and time to produce is irrelevant.

Cost to the producer isn't completely irrelevant. After all, they help define the supply curve.

http://i.investopedia.com/inv/tutorials/site/economics/economics5.gif

[KWalker]

Bikes are meant to be ridden first, looked at second. Both get boring without change.

[fuzzalow]

Without getting into cost, luxury good and just plain 'ol consumer preference, these are all demand-side analyses that are no doubt a part of what to know about before starting a venture. But I'm not so sure this is the largest part of the equation for why Firefly did and does what they do.

I'd be interested in what Firefly themselves have to say about this. Because I'd conjecture that their blend of entrepeneurship was less opportunistic in capitalistic motivation as entrepeneurship but rather as entrepeneurship as a means to an end to advance their unique craft in their commercialization of a high-end bicycle product. Slightly different approaches.

There's a world of difference between Zuckerberg/Facebook entrepeneurship and the almost charming petite bourgeois entrepeneurship of Firefly. Both valid under the lexicon as entrepreneur but existing in parallel universes in reach, scale and objective.

I think there's discussion throughout this thread that is missing the point of what I think is the crux of velomonkey's class. I say this only because my view of entrepeneur is less driven by figuring out who & what my potential customers are - which is an easy vantage point to speak from because we are all consumers. I truly believe the basis of entrepreneurship is the creativity and innovation on the supply side. As famously said by Steve Jobs, make things that people don't yet know they want. Do this and the demand side will work things out for themselves.

[dustyrider]

I really wonder if rationalization even matters?
Purchasing decisions surrounding X at X price is a matter of perspective after all. Just look through the classifieds you'll see some asking prices that are crazy and some that are crazy nice! What about the myriad of what's it worth threads?

I read posts on here all the time about how chaps can't justify another bike to the wife. Nothing will convince her of our rationale.
Heck, I've passed up a couple real beauties myself because other expenses were of more priority. Stupid priorities.

When I accidentally click on d2 shoes, thanks to my fat thumbs, I get a kick out of the fact that people actually purchase them. But they're a sponsor here for a reason, and I know it's only a $300 deposit today!

My conclusion is: There is no rationalization that is universal. Only rationalizations that work for the individual at that given time.

Given my above conclusion, does deconstruction of an individual's descison making process, rationalization, help "predict" larger market trends or help identify groups of consumers spending habits so you can advertise and actively target a certain consumer group? (Not sure if those things mean the same thing or not)

"In the ever changing world in which we live in" will these "predictions" stay relevant?

Great of you to combine passions!

[pdmtong]

My conclusion is: There is no rationalization that is universal. Only rationalizations that work for the individual at that given time.

Given my above conclusion, does deconstruction of an individual's decision making process, rationalization, help "predict" larger market trends?

that's why I think it more interesting to consider the purchase decision against substitutes and alternatives, not stand alone.

[Louis]

that's why I think it more interesting to consider the purchase decision against substitutes and alternatives, not stand alone.

I went through something like this a few years ago when deciding between a 70's era Alfa GTV and a Subaru BRZ. As neat, modern and relatively trouble-free the BRZ would have been, the Alfa won mostly because I thought it was the cooler, more distinctive vehicle and because I don't really see myself as a racer-boy.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697904824&stc=1&d=1438994757

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/11q4/424156/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-first-drive-review-car-and-driver-photo-432774-s-429x262.jpg

[dustyrider]

that's why I think it more interesting to consider the purchase decision against substitutes and alternatives, not stand alone.

yeah, I noticed you brought that up. I'm not sure how to set up something like this. I also liked fuzzy's comment above, and it got my gears turning.

I guess the real question must be: Can the difference in purchasing rationale between oem and bespoke be labeled?

Maybe the better question and the one you seem to propose is:
What if I put out a firefly, a specialized and a next all with a $99 price tag, which would the consumer pick? Then ask consumer why X over the others?

I just feel like it's just another bird walk into someone else's perceptions. Where rationalizations are not universal.

[pdmtong]

I went through something like this a few years ago when deciding between a 70's era Alfa GTV and a Subaru BRZ. As neat, modern and relatively trouble-free the BRZ would have been, the Alfa won mostly because I thought it was the cooler, more distinctive vehicle and because I don't really see myself as a racer-boy.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697904824&stc=1&d=1438994757

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/11q4/424156/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-first-drive-review-car-and-driver-photo-432774-s-429x262.jpg

this exactly gets to the meat of the question - consumer is going to make a purchase. what factors lead to supporting a non-mainstream choice that also has a price premium over substitutes?

the question of alternatives - is $4k in frame like $x k in clubs?

windsurf gear is also $$$.....$2500 board, $150 fin, $500 mast, $600 sail (need 3-4), $700 boom (need 1-2), $150 base....now add wetsuit. booties.

dont forget to add the pre-internet adage - its not a sport unless you spent $5000 and subscribe to at least one publication.

[dustyrider]

I went through something like this a few years ago when deciding between a 70's era Alfa GTV and a Subaru BRZ. As neat, modern and relatively trouble-free the BRZ would have been, the Alfa won mostly because I thought it was the cooler, more distinctive vehicle and because I don't really see myself as a racer-boy.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697904824&stc=1&d=1438994757

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/11q4/424156/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-first-drive-review-car-and-driver-photo-432774-s-429x262.jpg

Just think what the brz will represent when it has the kind of vintage of the alfa. Not that we'll be able to enjoy it or anything!

[AJM100]

+1 on the Alfa . . .:beer:

Not sure about the OP captioning of this thread . . .

But the more I think about what I read here on PL - the constant trolling of eBay and CL for old steel, Ti, customs, etc., the repeated comments about wives griping about "not another bike" - the more I believe the purchase of a 4k custom frame is akin to collecting mechanical watches . . . the buying and selling patterns are very similar (i.e., in search of the "grail") . . . and the motivations are similar - wanting a one of a kind piece of art, well fitted and finished . . . that also functions as a tool . . . and can be passed on through generations . . .

[fa63]

"A Review and a Conceptual Framework of Prestige-Seeking Consumer Behavior"

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.198.6625&rep=rep1&type=pdf

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m27/fikretatalay/Untitled_zpsgiiold1c.jpg

[rounder]

I bought two K, Bedford bikes that both cost under $4,000. I am not rich, but wanted to see what a custom frame built for me would be like. The first one was pretty and beautiful. I was so happy with it that I bought another. For me, it was not about spending a lot of money, it was more about buying something that you really like.

The other part that that was enjoyable was that they were both project bikes where I learned a lot along the way. I got to pick out and find all of the parts.

[BobbyJones]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O214-sportofkingsthe.html

keep searching...and check your history.

Interesting that even golf shows up as a "sport of kings" in some references.

Sheesh.

[Steelman]

Why buy a $4000 frame?

Well, unless you are competeting, I would say the underlying reason is style points. Perhaps to put an exclamation mark on your biking lifestyle, if you live that.

Its kinda like driving a Porsche Turbo in a 60mph world. Fun, ok, but is it really necessary? And when you get right down to it, bikes, unlike cars, are pretty much all the same, once you get past a certain price point.

[smontanaro]

Good point: I did cover that, though. When I went over the stuff about cobbles I talked about how the 'ride' of a bike does matter - you might not go faster, per se, but the bike itself will be a totally different experience. Talked about box rim tubulars and carbon clinchers and that plays into the whole "feel" aspect and that some carbon frames have missed those targets.

I suspect most people who drop $4k on a frame will never get close to cobbles. Or race. There's a thread on Classic Rendezvous right now, trying to help a woman identify the builder of a custom bike she inherited from her mom. She wrote:

My mother loved this bike and describes it as "feeling like it pedaled itself".

There's more to fit and feel than how the bike rolls over cobbles. I don't know Firefly. Maybe they only sell to racers, but I suspect not.

[slidey]

Couldn't agree more.
This can come full circle, the more one participates in an activity, the more one comes to realize what are needs and what are wants.


OP: What is the intent of your lecture? I know the class is entrepreneurship, and you're an entrepreneur, and that the slides are only one component of a larger picture, but speaking ONLY to the slides, it seems to be focusing on components of the activity (crashes/cobbles/racing) that have absolutely nothing to do with entrepreneurship.

Of course, if you have data to back it up that a majority of bikes in the peloton are white-labeled Firefly's then that perhaps makes some sense.

[kitsnob]

Because, with as much as "regular" bikes (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) cost, why not pay just a bit more and get something unique? I would never pay those prices for a mass produced bike, but will for a custom.

AMEN, My brother! :hello:

[velomonkey]

OP: What is the intent of your lecture? I know the class is entrepreneurship, and you're an entrepreneur, and that the slides are only one component of a larger picture, but speaking ONLY to the slides, it seems to be focusing on components of the activity (crashes/cobbles/racing) that have absolutely nothing to do with entrepreneurship.


The intent of slides, and the slide deck only, was to explain to the students why I purchased a 4k bike. My reasons are not the reasons others have - why firefly started their business may or may not be the same as my reasons for buying - the students in my class had no idea that there was even a market for 4k hand-made frames. My reason for buying one was that the sport is rich in history and drama and carbon frames, in my view, have gotten away from that.

Yes I race my firefly - the deck spoke to why one person purchased one frame - not as to why the founders started the company or even what segment they feel they serve best.

[weaponsgrade]

I'd like to suggest the following topic/paradox for your students to explore: the less time I have for riding the more I spend on bikes.

[slidey]

The intent of slides, and the slide deck only, was to explain to the students why I purchased a 4k bike. My reasons are not the reasons others have - why firefly started their business may or may not be the same as my reasons for buying - the students in my class had no idea that there was even a market for 4k hand-made frames. My reason for buying one was that the sport is rich in history and drama and carbon frames, in my view, have gotten away from that.

Yes I race my firefly - the deck spoke to why one person purchased one frame - not as to why the founders started the company or even what segment they feel they serve best.

Ah, just your personal perspective - fair enough.

I'm curious though, about the Firefly example at large, given they're a private company, have you been able to drill down on if they're a success per simple profit/loss definitions? More importantly, what made Firefly standout in such a niche business, with such a small market, with so much potential competition?

Put another way, would you encourage any of your students to set up a custom bike manufacturing house - and, if yes, what would your caveats to them be?

[IJWS]

6 pages later and nobody mentioned Rapha, the Porsche GT4 (or the 911 R), or a Ducati Scrambler??? :crap:

It's 2016. Experience trumps Performance.

Fit
Feel
Identity
Commemoration
Lifestyle
Etc..

This is why "normal" people have $3-8k bikes in their garages. Not because they are luxury items or the highest-performing items in their categories. Or most expensive.

I think it is a really unproductive way to start a conversation in a classroom about high-end sports/lifestyle goods and pin it to performance. Any student not into biking isn't going to get sucked in from the images in that stack, and you're going to leave the rep from Firefly with a lot of backpedaling to do when they have to explain where FF is coming from.

At the end of the day, your stack glosses over the most interesting point from an entrepreneurial point of view which is the blurring between performance and lifestyle that has been happening in cycling and other traditional sports since the early 2000's.

[msl819]

keep searching...and check your history.

Interesting that even golf shows up as a "sport of kings" in some references.

Sheesh.

As does War... Go figure!

[jlwdm]

...

I'm curious though, about the Firefly example at large, given they're a private company, have you been able to drill down on if they're a success per simple profit/loss definitions?

...

Custom frame building is not a way to make money. At least not enough for me.

Jeff

[fuzzalow]

Custom frame building is not a way to make money. At least not enough for me.

Jeff

For some, if frame building is what you know how to do, then you do it.

It brings to mind one of Michael Lewis' ("The Big Short", "Moneyball", "Blind Side" etc.) earlier books "Boomerang" in telling the tale of Iceland that in the late 2000's went from a nation of fisherman to a nation of investment bankers/traders. Wow! Who needs fish when you can make money like this! Of course, it didn't last, that whole side of an illusionary economy went bust. And, eventually...they went back to fishing.

Money isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

[jwess1234]

Definitely a cultural/learned thing too. Outside of a very small group of obsessed friends (some post here), I only know one person who has purchased a custom frame and he had to for being extremely tall. There is no real market exposure or understanding without the collective knowledge, etc.

I've been on this forum going on year 2 or so and a friend of mine had a custom made last year. If you would have asked me in 2013 whether I'd expect to purchase a custom bike anytime soon the answer would have been no. After a few years of seeing others, reading up, appreciating shared experiences (and saving a bunch of $$!), my first custom is headed to the painter this week.

With respect to Firefly, they've been successful tapped in the culture, and had the good fortune of significant momentum/reputation/brand recognition being at IF, etc. (separate and apart from the actual learned skills).

The instagram and other posts of exclusive, super $$$ bikes certainly helps the marketing where some with super stressful jobs use the bike stuff to "destress" by looking at bike porn on their phone when walking to the next meeting--sort of a retail therapy.