"randonneur" riding position

[mosca]

Recently I've been considering the idea of building up a randonneur/credit-card-touring type of bike. Something geared toward longer, slower-paced rides, with longer hours in the saddle. I am wondering if this new bike should have a different riding position than my current "go-fast" road bike. I am currently running about 80mm saddle-bar drop - would it be good to reduce this? Shoud I consider adjusting the saddle setback or the saddle-bar distance?

Any info is much appreciated, thanks!

[Ken Robb]

how do you feel when you finish a long ride now? If nothing hurts you must be doing it right. I couldn't ride 2 miles with that much drop.

[goonster]

I'm no authority, but the more brevets I ride the more I'm starting to think that the whole notion of approaching randonneuring as some "other" kind of riding is hooey.

If your contact points are OK for the duration of a 50 mile club ride, or a tough century, there's nothing that will suddenly get you in trouble beyond that.

In a recent issue of VBQ a seasoned randonneur (can't remember who) advised "start with your regular road bike setup and adjust things from there, as needed." I think that's very good advice. Start out with what works for you now, and make changes from there.

In the same article, Roger Baumann said, "for the very long we raised our handlebars 1 cm." (photos show his bars several cm's below the saddle, although he says his bars were low compared to his peers)

My own handlebars are approx. 7 cm, or so, [I]below the saddle, and that's probably higher than most bikes I see on brevets.

[dbrk]

These days folks ride all sorts of bikes for long distances, most of which look too small to me: too much post, riser stems and spacers, etc., an old saw. Have a look in the gallery for my custom Mariposa Randonneur. (It's also on the Mariposa website.) What you'll see is a bike that significantly reduces saddle bar drop. My own long distance position in comparison to my go fast has me further behind the spindle, longer, flatter, taller. The tip of the saddle to center of the clamp position is the same (compensating for saddle differences in length) on all the bike (within about 1.5cm). For a good description of how the great French builders---masters of this style---solved fit issues look at Le Petit Vivre by Daniel Rebour. Here you will find that you can stand over pubic bone height minus 25cm on nearly any frame and that this is a basic starting point. Why? Simple, to reduce saddle/bar drop without the compromises of stacking or goose-neck-like stems. Of course, from this starting point there are dozens of considerations. Folks who really specialize in touring style bikes, people like Mike Barry or Hiroshi Iimura (of Jitensha Studio), build bikes like this: very balanced and reducing bar/saddle drop using traditional solutions. My own bars are usually 2-3cm below the saddle. But you would be surprised how "level" that looks.

Some folks strive to have the same position on every bike, as if there were one optimal fit for each person. I don't subscribe to that view. Every bike is different in design and invites adjustments. I would go so far as to say that not even my randonneuring style bikes all fit the same. Some folks adjust well, others prefer one position. Your call.

dbrk

[goonster]

These days folks ride all sorts of bikes for long distances, most of which look too small to me: too much post, riser stems and spacers, etc., an old saw.

I agree with you that it looks wrong, and yet my experience has shown that bikes with "modern race" configuration can be ridden comfortably over very long distances. These folks are spending 80+ hours in the saddle with 15+ cm of bar drop, and they are not stretching out aching backs or shaking out stiff fingers.

[Bradford]

Recently I've been considering the idea of building up a randonneur/credit-card-touring type of bike.

I don't know a thing about Randonneur bikes, but I do know what I like in a touring bike. Are they actually the same thing? My understanding is that Randonneur bikes are used in timed events, which is not what touring bikes (credit card or fully loaded) are used for.

My Legend has twice the drop of my touring bike. I've ridden up to 140 miles in one day on my Legend and up to 126 miles on a fully loaded touring bike. Both were great days and both bikes were fine for the purpose. But, the purpose was considerably different. The purpose of my 140 mile day on my Legend was to ride fast and hard for 140 miles. When I tour, my purpose is to take all day to ride 50 or 60 miles, stop at least once an hour to look at things and talk to people, and take in as much scenery as I can.

The point is not that I couldn’t do that in the same position as my road bike, it is that I don’t want to. I want to be more upright, I want to take my time, I want to see what is going on around me, and I don’t want to be in racer-boy position. However, when I ride in a pack for a long ride, sometimes I want to be fast and I don’t want to be in tourer-boy position.

I’ve done 5 PMCs, which has a 110 mile first day. I’ve done two on my touring bike and 3 on my road bike. The two on the touring bike were social, casual affairs where I talked to people the whole time as I rode along. The 3 on my road bike were with other good riders and were more like a fast group ride that went all day. Both good, both completely different.

So, what are you going to use this bike for? That will tell you what your position should be. Fast, timed, competitive—just use your road bike. Don’t care about speed, want to see what is around you, are you going to be carrying any weight (even a light load)—raise the bars, relax the tube angles, and stretch out the chain stays. Want to do both—get two bikes.

[dauwhe]

There's also quite a range of folks who are "randonneurs". I plug along at 12mph (if I'm lucky) when Sandy W. might be plugging along at 24mph (uphill). He doesn't carry a jacket--I bring the kitchen sink. His bars look to be foot below the saddle--mine might be a millimeter below the saddle.

I like the diversity--fast people on racy bikes, slow people on racy bikes, fast people on Bob Jackson touring frames, slow people on Salukis (I've seen a lot of fast folks riding Rambouillets). And we all seem to get along just fine! Now if only my saddle would stop hurting...

Dave

[Fat Robert]

15 cm of drop? maybe is they're six three and very fit.

the bottom line is that you want a position that is comfortable and efficient for 100 miles or more: now, as bradford points out, there are two ways to be comfortable. You can be as comfortable as your LT allows you to be and comfortable on the wheel of some little guy. you can be comfortable rolling along at 19mph and taking in the scenery.

for me, comfort is a racing position, but that's because I'm racing with other olf fat slow farts. I have 5mm of spacer under the stem on my ridley, which gives me 12 cm of drop. I'd like to get it to 12.5cm...but that will require more work off the bike and more miles. Please don't think that Fat Man is off his head, but I'd put a new seatpost on it that I'm fitter and more flexible than 98% of us here -- I'll defer to the Cat2s on up. For all that, 12cm is a lot of drop, and it would not be possible, let alone comfortable, for a lot of riders. for senor obtuse of the monkey arms, 12 cm would be a relaxed touring position....

If I was in no hurry to get where I was going, had a credit card with me (which would mean I'd have to get one first...I'm working on it...I figure 40 is a good age to get my first credit card), I'd run 6cm of drop with deep drop round bars...leather tape...fenders...and be relaxed and stylish.

you can set your bike up to be comfy and handle well at 30, or you can set it up to be comfy and handle well at 20. you can't set it up to do both.

[Fixed]

bro i'm kinda weird if my h.bars are too close and too high that makes my back hurt i have to be low and long to be comfy.

[dauwhe]

you can set your bike up to be comfy and handle well at 30, or you can set it up to be comfy and handle well at 20. you can't set it up to do both.

Let's not forget 10! :)

[bcm119]

I've never been able to get comfortable riding slow, thats why I can never do a proper recovery ride. Ambling along slowly puts too much weight on my hands and makes my triceps hurt. It also hurts my ***. Raising the bars makes it worse. I agree with doof about a slow bike and fast bike being set up differently, but I haven't found the slow position yet.

I think the "racing position" is the most comfortable because the right amount of bar drop, reach and saddle setback allows most of your weight to be supported by your pedaling forces (glutes/quads/hams), not your hands or sit-bones.

[Too Tall]

Yes, you should consider it. Only to say it makes sense you design a bike that has adjustments avail. without harming the bikes balance(s). No, you won't need to change the saddle setback significantly or the reach etc. etc.

Good PBP bikes are often good road racing bikes...in a raincoat...boots and a hat ;)

[Rapid Tourist]

Speaking of randonneur positioning, I found this randonneuring bar from modolo. I thought it was interesting. I guess the idea is to shorten the reach to the tops. Reach to the hoods is pretty short too, only around 80 mm.

[eddief]

where can one find those bars?

[dbrk]

snip... No, you won't need to change the saddle setback significantly or the reach etc. etc.
Good PBP bikes are often good road racing bikes...in a raincoat...boots and a hat ;)

Yes indeed. If I were still interested in road racing I would think of any of my randonneur style bikes fit for that purpose in terms of handling and fit. Of course, the racer guys get wet, have to ride in daylight only, and for the most part are limited by design choices made on their rigs that _could_ be more versatile if, say, carbon forks had eyelets, stnd reach brakes and wider tires _could_ be fit, etc. ;-) Once upon a time most race bikes had such options and sensible overall designs (like tire clearances). Nowadays we live in the age of specialty bikes doing limited things....mostly.

dbrk

[Brons2]

I have a comment on this as a brevet and Rivendell rider.

It seems to me that you can't just raise the bars up on a bike that is built to be a go-fast racing bike.

It has to be built as a integrated system. Rivendells have higher bars on most of their models. They also have shorter top tubes than many of today's square frames. It's all meant to work together. If your frame wasn't designed that way, it makes sense that raising the bars would be uncomfortable.

[ChrisK]

It seems to me that there is no better way to determine your riding position than by experimenting with it. I've been riding bikes for 33 years and my position has evolved over that time. The caveat is, that once you raise your bars, for example, you have to leave them that way for a couple of weeks to learn anything because for the first few rides the new position will just feel funny. But after a couple of weeks you can tell if you like, or hate, the adjustment.

[palincss]

the bottom line is that you want a position that is comfortable and efficient for 100 miles or more

Just a little clarification: the minimum distance for the shortest brevets is usually 200km, or 125 miles. They go up from there, way up, to three times that distance and more. So "comfortable for 100 miles" isn't the whole story; it isn't even the end of the beginning of the story.

[atmo]

<snipped>the bottom line is that you want a position that is comfortable and efficient for 100 miles or more<cut>



<snipped>So "comfortable for 100 miles" isn't the whole story; it isn't even the end of the beginning of the story.


i think it's worth considering that the distance for
racing/not racing/randoneurring and the respective
positions are not really the issue. if you're not in race
condition, then all the fit and position tenets in the world
will not apply. similarly, if a fit racer dude that can race
a 100 miles, and does so because that's what he does,
he will likely use his road position when he rides on the
road - period. trying to determine what is appropriate
for athletes of different fitness levels, who have different
goals, and who compete in events that have no overlap,
is not a black/white, one-size-fits-all issue.

[Dekonick]

here is an interesting bar....

From wallingford bike

http://www.wallbike.com/content/JPG/itmsynergo.jpg

and this is another one

http://www.wallbike.com/oddsnends/bbbmultibar.html

Any thoughts about either one?

I was thinking about trying the ITMsynergo on my soon to be fixee Colorado CR

Looks like it gives a lot of hand position options. (and fore/aft bar movement)

[Eric E]

Hi all,

As a touring and recreational cyclist, I've found that I need to:

- get my weight over the petals and off my hands - I need a lower angle seat tube and a set-back seat post for this due to my dimensions,

- have less weight on my toes - setting my cleats back a bit helps with this, and

- have a more upright position, with my handlebars approaching the seat height and a saddle with a front-to back downward curve, a wide back and a narrow middle (Koobis are great for me).

Best, Eric

[Rapid Tourist]

eddief, I found the bars on the modolo website. Go to handlebars, then to "gran fondo". I don't know where they sell them, but this is the manufacturer's site. I just ordered some modolo venus bars from "bicyclebuys.com." They are nice people and very helpful.

http://www.modolo.com/

[Too Tall]

Dekonick - who loves yah babe? ME! I draw the line at putting those wretched bars on your nice bike. Say it's a gag, for old time sake k?

[Dekonick]

Heh - I was thinking about it...but stuck with bullhorns.

[mosca]

Boy, you guys are all over the map here :D

Thanks for all the feedback, though - it was enjoyable and informative. Looks like some trial and error is in my future - looking forward to it!

[obtuse]

put the stem on top of the headset. spacers are mp.

obtuse

[Fixed]

spacers on top of the stem bro .. you might want to sell it someday ..
cheers

[Fat Robert]

1cm under
1.5cm over

my bike is mp to the 3


(but hey, I found an Oval 140 in Columbia SC...life is good)

[Long Rider]

Mosca - Most of the Brevet bikes I've ever seen are infact good race bikes. What bike you use for the job is a matter of choice. Practically speaking a Riv. is a custom bike. A d@mn fine one too.

[palincss]

I agree with you that it looks wrong, and yet my experience has shown that bikes with "modern race" configuration can be ridden comfortably over very long distances. These folks are spending 80+ hours in the saddle with 15+ cm of bar drop, and they are not stretching out aching backs or shaking out stiff fingers.

At the same time, if you go on an event like Bike Virginia which has made provision for massages after the rides and get a massage, you'll find the number one issue everybody's there to get fixed is neck and shoulder pain.

My own experience is, when I was 49 years old, a 5-8 cm drop felt great. I could ride a century on my then-new Spectrum Ti and feel great at the end. By the time I turned 59, riding that same century on that same bike with the identical setup was giving me excruciating pain in the neck by around mile 75, and for the last 25 miles I felt like I had a large railroad spike nailed into my spine. I tried the Rivendellian bars-level-with-saddle position, and no more neck pain. 5 years later, still doing fine.

[Grant McLean]

Lots of hand positions.

Some of the racer-types only ride on their hoods, and their bikes are set up that way.
If you want the most variety, make sure you really can ride in the drops.
There's a real art to set up the height and reach so that the tops, hoods,
and the drops give you lots of choices.

g

[atmo]

Lots of hand positions.


perfect fit atmo -