OT: car delimma

[Tickdoc]

Ok I need some advice here.

My son is now legally driving and can get himself to school, etc. woo hoo.

I've been saving my beloved old 2001 bmw 525 wagon for him to drive. I bought it new in 2001, ordered it from the factory. Well, it hasn't had a slot in the garage for about five years now. It has some minor body damage( front bumper, dings, couple of pitted areas, needs a new windshield seal, headlights fogged, etc.

I start and drive it about once a month just to keep the juices flowing, until last month it wouldn't start. Dead battery. Tried to jump, still wouldn't start. Towed it in to repair shop where they diagnosed about 2x the value of the car to get it tip top. I opted for just get it running service and we got it back this week.

Took it to a body shop and they want 3x value to get it tip top.

My wife wants to spend about 10k to get him a "decent " used car. We go look at a couple of lots and holy Jesus the crap available in the 10k range is staggeringly bad.

I say take our time and fix the things in pieces. I have a nice set of wheels for it already. I have a cool hood available from my former service rep. I think it would be a cool project to fix as we go.

I'd rather take it to our land and park it then trade it in for pittance.

What to do, oh wise ones?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Handgod/1330BDF6-5477-478E-8964-26537C4C819C_zpsqwivfgdw.jpg

[MattTuck]

May be of interest to you. (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-08/deflation-coming-auto-industry-used-car-prices-drop-lease-deluge-looms)

[AngryScientist]

That's a great car doc! Is it a manual?

I think you and your wife may be setting the bar too high for the kiddo. He's a boy who's getting back and fourth to school with a cell phone. Basic transportation is all he really needs. If the two of you have any mechanical ability at all, with the advent of online forums and BMW enthusiast websites, there is little you shouldnt be able to tackle on that car to get it running well and reliably.

New driver - trust me on this one: FORGET the body work. primer/touch up any rust to prevent it from spreading, but dont worry about small dings and dents - there are sure to be more as he learns to pilot a car over the next few years. everything doesnt need to be "tip top" shape. make sure the brakes work well, the suspension is decent and it has some tread left on the tires. everything else you can coax to life along the way.

[CampyorBust]

Get it running and safe then let him drive it into the ground. I am assuming this will be a good amount cheaper than 10K. The car has served your family faithfully thus far, I would be inclined to let it continue to do so till the end. You know it inside and out. He will learn a lot about driving in a familiar car and will get an idea of what he wants out of a car. Plus that’s a pretty sweet 1st car, chicks will dig it! 10K should get you a very nice used car me thinks.

[Saint Vitus]

The larger question is what does your son want to drive? Does he even care, or is he very specific?

The Beemer is worth maybe $2k, what does it truly need mechanically? And personally I'd never pay a dime to sort out cosmetic issues on a used car for a first time driver, unless they impacted the safety and operation of the vehicle.

[zap]

We have a '98 MB that became our beater car 3 years ago. Beater meaning we don't take care of every little item.......body rust (happens fast when you don't wash off salt), AC compressor (went kaput last year), etc.

But it comes in handy for business (stopped depreciating years ago) and close in parking locations.....after all, the USA is known for cars with numerous door dings.......and driving around pothole town. So we keep up with basics such as oil changes and the like. Will get the AC repaired this spring.

But, every time we rent a car I'm reminded how good this old Mercedes is compared to '16 GM's or Toyota's.

So, I say keep the wagon (these wagons are really handy), get it to running condition and if your son wants, have him bring it up to tip top shape.....with your assistance.

[josephr]

been there, done that....giving teens nice cars is like buying a Pinarello for a newbie...I wouldn't fix the body/dents --- plan on more of those coming. I wouldn't put $ into getting it into tip-top shape either...reality is its a 15 year old car, there's no way tip-top is realistically feasible. Get it running, let him drive it.

Joe

[mgm777]

Tickdoc -- We just went through a similar dilemma. Wanted to get a used, but decent & safe car for the kids, as we have a 16 yo daughter and 14 yo son. Initially set our budget at $5K and were unable to find anything decent, or more importantly, that my wife would allow our kids to drive. So, we raised the budget to $10K, and found slightly more and better inventory, but not by a large degree. In the end, one of our elderly neighbors sold us his 2006 Honda Pilot with 89K miles for $8.5K. The car is pretty clean, inside and out. For a new driver, it has lots of visibility, very neutral driving characteristics, lots of airbags, and from what I've read and heard, it has a solid reputation for being dependable. As for your BMW, I would just get it running and ensure it is safe, and be done with it. It is a great car, from a safety perspective, for the kids. If you have the budget and the willingness to maintain it, I'd say get the Beemer running.

[eddief]

Got bucks, wanna hobby, fix the Bimmer. Want something reliable and practical for your son not to get stuck in, get an Accord. In fact, no matter what, get an Accord for your son and spend the bucks to cherry out the BMW...and then don't leave it outside to rot. For my eyeballs, that year / model in the sedan is maybe the best looking BMW in a really long time.

[Schmed]

There's no way I'd part with that BMW. I love BMW wagons, and a known quantity is way better than an unknown quantity. If it were a 540i, I might shy away due to the expense of maintaining that engine and cooling system.

Are you going to a good indy BMW shop? Not the dealer, right?

I'd throw some 17 or 18" wheels on there, work on it with your son (if that's your thing), and drive it to 500k miles. I had a 325is with 308,000 miles on it, and I had it at the race track when it turned 300,000 miles.

[tuscanyswe]

Got bucks, wanna hobby, fix the Bimmer. Want something reliable and practical for your son not to get stuck in, get an Accord. In fact, no matter what, get an Accord for your son and spend the bucks to cherry out the BMW...and then don't leave it outside to rot.

+1

Well got no experience with accords but i did get to buy a used bmw as my first car from a family member. It was a great price but the upkeep costs of that fairly high-tech car for its time was not worth it. This was an 88 tho so a bit earlier.
This summer i sold my dads old 01 328i. I was surprised how little money that nice of a car brought. Like a really nice set of campy carbon wheels.. Ridiculous :D

[sitzmark]

A lot depends on your son.

Is it a vehicle HE is interested in? Is it in keeping with the "image" he has caved out for himself with his peers and at school. If not, it's likely he will not care for the car in a way that will do justice to the vehicle or minimize the cost to maintain it. Meaning if he thinks it's a POC, then he'll treat it as such and "drive it hard", which will increase the overall wear and tear on the vehicle ... and thus the cost to maintain.

A 525 wagon is a nice handling vehicle for a car its size and very functional for a kid involved in "equipment sports". An early 2000s vehicle well maintained throughout its life has far less resale value than its intrinsic transportation value. Very solid car, but one that can have higher than average repair expenses because of options and advanced technology (for the day). More than likely the exterior is going to incur a few more "dings" with a teenage driver than it has now, so making it pristine is probably a losing proposition. Especially if he doesn't respect the vehicle.

Most of the $10K junk you'll find probably needs the same amount of TLC to restore it to "tip top", but depending on the vehicle the parts and labor needed to bring all components to original operating condition could be significantly less than for the 525.

If he likes the idea of a wagon, I'd say go with what you know and not get caught up in someone else's cast-off that you have no idea how it was treated.

[druptight]

New driver - trust me on this one: FORGET the body work. primer/touch up any rust to prevent it from spreading, but dont worry about small dings and dents - there are sure to be more as he learns to pilot a car over the next few years. everything doesnt need to be "tip top" shape. make sure the brakes work well, the suspension is decent and it has some tread left on the tires. everything else you can coax to life along the way.

This. He's only going to make more mistakes, ding it up, hit curbs, park under trees with falling objects above, sit on it, etc. Get the engine up to snuff so it's reliable, make sure the headlights/windshield are safe and provide what he needs to drive safely at night and let her rip.

[rwsaunders]

I don't know your kid but the accident statistics regarding young males behind the wheel is not enviable. A 16-17 yo male is 9X more likely to be involved in accident as a middle aged driver. The stats become better when they reach 25 yo. You'll also find that you car insurance goes nuts when he's assigned his own car on your policy, especially a BMW.

Fix the car, let him be a part of it and make having a job a condition of assigning him the car if that's the way that you go. It teaches a little responsibility along the way and an appreciation for exactly what it takes to own and operate a car. It's also nice for a kid to have to ask to use a car as opposed to having a free reign. After all, you're still the parent and responsible for his actions.

Signed,
Teddy Roosevelt

[Vinci]

If you trade/sell that E39, you'll get almost nothing for it. It's a terrible shame because they are such great cars and a Touring is already immensely cool.

You've got the benefit of having the 6cyl (M52TU?), which is bulletproof and shared with a LOT of other BMWs (3 and Z series at least). As a result, parts are plentiful. Maintenance is easy too, for the most part.

If it's also a manual, you get the benefit of a bulletproof transmission that was also used in almost every BMW model at that time (3, 5, Z, probably euro 7's). I don't know much about the automatics, so no comment there.

If you are mechanically-inclined, you can keep that baby running until it completely falls apart. The electrical gremlins were a pain in the E39, but you can fix a lot of those with a can of De-Ox-It.

The exterior/aesthetic issues aren't that big of a deal. The headlights can be sanded/polished. Failing that, the covers were actually REPLACEABLE on the E39, if you can find some new ones. Failing that, I think you can even get entire Hella replacement units.

If you're not mechanically-inclined or don't want to deal with it, then your options are very limited. An E39 (or any old BMW) will eat you out of house and home if you have to pay someone else to work on it. Doing it yourself, though, is pretty affordable.

[MattTuck]

Saying this with no kids, so it may seem odd. I have to say, there is a sort of maturation process that happens when driving an unreliable car.

I remember driving with my buddy in college, and his head gasket blew, on the highway. Good times. Coming up with money for the tow truck, showing up to campus on the back of a flat bed... And then there was the time another friend's ford tempo, (leaking transmission fluid, we later found out) was unable to make it up moderate hills without flooring the pedal. We barely made it home.

Becoming an independent resourceful person requires you to adapt to new situations and figure out solutions to problems as they arise. Depriving him of these learning opportunities so you have peace of mind is not doing him any favors.

[p nut]

I had an old 3-series back in the day. Constant nickel/dime. If I were in high school, it would drive me nuts to have to fix the thing all the time vs. doing other things.

My vote would be to sell it (or keep it as your project, whatever), get something like an older Tacoma 2WD, manual. All he needs to do is change the oil and put gas in it. And you won't get a call at 11PM from your son asking you to pick him up...due to the car breaking down anyway.

[paredown]

If your son shows any interest in the car, I agree with the fix as you go plan--I mean it is not like any of us had perfect cars when we were 18...

Lots of good forums for DIY too, if your interest leans that way.

Agree with not doing the body, unless you can figure out a way not to pay retail--barter services with someone?

Or--if you want to get rid of it, PM me (if auto, wife refuses to learn manual)--we are a wagon family and are looking for a replacement for our long in the tooth V70

[eddief]

I love that philosophy :).

Saying this with no kids, so it may seem odd. I have to say, there is a sort of maturation process that happens when driving an unreliable car.

I remember driving with my buddy in college, and his head gasket blew, on the highway. Good times. Coming up with money for the tow truck, showing up to campus on the back of a flat bed... And then there was the time another friend's ford tempo, (leaking transmission fluid, we later found out) was unable to make it up moderate hills without flooring the pedal. We barely made it home.

Becoming an independent resourceful person requires you to adapt to new situations and figure out solutions to problems as they arise. Depriving him of these learning opportunities so you have peace of mind is not doing him any favors.

[William]

...If he likes the idea of a wagon, I'd say go with what you know and not get caught up in someone else's cast-off that you have no idea how it was treated.

+100

We are at the same juncture. Our son is starting to drive and we originally hung on to the Volvo S70 for that purpose. It had been sitting most of the time not getting a lot of use and there were some things that needed fixing...brakes and an ABS warning light. Otherwise it starts every time and goes. Most of the time I just used it to load my board on and drive down to the water to go paddle boarding.

For a first car, I'm not going to drop a lot of coin, but I do want something that is safe and reliable. Mrs. William didn't want to drop money into it to fix it and was leaning toward getting another car. My argument was that the Volvo was a known quantity, sure we need to fix somethings, but we know that the car is otherwise reliable. We buy another used vehicle we have no idea what we are getting into. Luckily I won that argument and went ahead and had the repairs done. I'm not going to worry at all about minor cosmetic issues. A little sanding, a little primer, and its good to go!

I would say you know what you have, make sure its running well and the brakes are good and let him go fourth!







William

[summilux]

That is a great car. Mercedes is the only company importing luxury wagons into North America now. I would buy the new Jag wagon in a heartbeat but that's Europe only. The current BMW 3 series wagons and the Audi version are OK but not great. A 5-series wagon is essentially irreplaceable and has great style points.

I would be tempted to ignore the market "value" of your car but rather think about its replacement value. You want to spend $10K on a used car, so what if you put $5k into your wagon? You might find an independent mechanic who specializes on BMWs, someone who you could locate through a local BMW car club. Your repair bill could be cheaper. I'm sure you have a local club, they are everywhere.

I keep my cars forever. We've got a '05 Volvo XC90 and an '07 BMW 328i sedan, both bought from new. Our Volvo, like your wagon, essentially has no value. $2K on trade in last time we checked because it has nearly 200K miles on it. We'll keep repairing it within reason because we've maintained it, it's solid and the alternatives are going to cost a whole lot more.

The new BMWs don't drive like old ones, save yours if you can.

[Bradford]

... We go look at a couple of lots and holy Jesus the crap available in the 10k range is staggeringly bad...



A kid's first car is supposed to be staggeringly bad. My first car was a 72 Duster with a green door on a blue car (that didn't open, buy the way), ripped bench seats, a Radio Shack cassette player bolted under the dash, and a muffler that didn't muffle anything. I wouldn't give my kid a BMW anything even if I had Bill Gates money.

He needs something safe, slow, and boring, like a Honda. He doesn't need anything cool or fast. So, go buy him a used Civic or CRV and be done with it.

[Tickdoc]

Holy smokes this place is great.

I haven't had time to delve into all responses yet, but thank you all for the advice and suggestions.

Couple of items:

My son hardly factors in here. He is not a car guy, just wants to look decent. He's a shy guy who is cautious and pretty safe....way more Than I was at his age!

He goes to a nice public school where there are kids in Porsches and kids on scooters, and he really is a wallflower and doesn't want to draw much attention to himself.

He doesn't have a lot of mechanical inclination like I do, so any shade tree repairs would be done by moi.

I do have a nice bmw/Mercedes specific off the reservation shop to do the work. They are reputable but still expensive.

I think he will be fine in this car, and this whole delimma is more of a disagreement between my wife and me.

This car fits into our family well in that I can haul bikes in the back, mulch, furniture, etc without worry. It's past pristine so we don't have to baby it.

With its staggered rims (18" I think ). It rides nice and will cruise all day along at 100mph and gets a tick over 20 mpg in the process. Way more than he needs.

I considered a small truck as a replacement that would also fit our needs, but I already have use of a truck that I don't have to maintain. Plus the resale on a decent truck is high and they are hard to find unabused, even here in the land where trucks outnumber cars two to one.

I drove it today and I hate to say, I would rather fix this one up for myself and lend him my e350 to drive than see this one go away. I'd lose my heated seats and satellite radio and navigation, but I could live with either one happily. That sounds crazy but true. It's just a damn car at the end of the day.

[adrien]

That is a great car. Mercedes is the only company importing luxury wagons into North America now. I would buy the new Jag wagon in a heartbeat but that's Europe only. The current BMW 3 series wagons and the Audi version are OK but not great. A 5-series wagon is essentially irreplaceable and has great style points.

I would be tempted to ignore the market "value" of your car but rather think about its replacement value. You want to spend $10K on a used car, so what if you put $5k into your wagon? You might find an independent mechanic who specializes on BMWs, someone who you could locate through a local BMW car club. Your repair bill could be cheaper. I'm sure you have a local club, they are everywhere.

I keep my cars forever. We've got a '05 Volvo XC90 and an '07 BMW 328i sedan, both bought from new. Our Volvo, like your wagon, essentially has no value. $2K on trade in last time we checked because it has nearly 200K miles on it. We'll keep repairing it within reason because we've maintained it, it's solid and the alternatives are going to cost a whole lot more.

The new BMWs don't drive like old ones, save yours if you can.

Actually, Volvo is importing the small wagon they have, and is bringing the new big wagon (v90) shortly. I think they will bring the twin-engine hybrid, which is the same drivetrain we have in our T8. It is seriously cool.

To the OP...I just traded in a car I would raise as a possibility: a 2007 Subaru Outback. Has a lot of the utility, lacks the power / wow / high insurance factor, and is very reliable. My wife and I were joking we would look for something just like it in 5 years when our daughter starts driving -- not expensive, not powerful, and pretty reliable. Also, not very cool.

[ceolwulf]

I would keep the wagon. But if you get something else I'd suggest a Lexus IS300 like mine. Nice ones can be had easily within your $10k budget - half that with a bit of patience and looking around. By far the most reliable car I've ever had, not even close. Inline six and RWD, good suspension geometry gives you BMW style driving dynamics with none of the maintenance issues. Many of them have been (badly) modified though so watch out for that.

[Catdr]

Keep the car. Keep it running. Leave the body alone. Ride it into the ground.

[Vinci]

With its staggered rims (18" I think ). It rides nice and will cruise all day along at 100mph and gets a tick over 20 mpg in the process. Way more than he needs.
The wheels in your photo are 16" and the same all around (non-staggered).

The E39 M5 got staggered 18's, but that was it as far as the factory wheels go.

FWIW, aftermarket wheels are tricky for the E39 if you're considering "jazzing it up". It used a larger center bore than pretty much all other BMWs and has very low offsets. This means that it is something of an oddball when it comes to finding aftermarket wheels.

[p nut]

The wheels in your photo are 16" and the same all around (non-staggered).

The E39 M5 got staggered 18's, but that was it as far as the factory wheels go.

Didn't E39 "Sport" also get staggered 17" wheels? Too many years since I've been into that sort of thing, but seem to recollect something like that.

[559Rando]

It's a sweet car, but I'll second/third/fourth the suggestions to not fix the cosmetics, if you have him drive it. Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys are great cars for anyone.

My first car was the old family wagon and it was great experience. Wish I still had it.

Great cars can be had for $10k. I sold a very nice sub-100k miles '04 Acura TSX last year for about $9k. Perfectly reliable, great cosmetics, good features. Heresy to some, but I put 87 octane in with nary an issue.

[Mzilliox]

that car "as is" is still far nicer than what i drive on the daily. teach him its a tool, not a luxury/status device. if it runs and gets you and your gear where you need to be with reasonable efficiency, then its a great vehicle. thats the important thing. after all, we ride bikes right?

[jtakeda]

that car "as is" is still far nicer than what i drive on the daily. teach him its a tool, not a luxury/status device. if it runs and gets you and your gear where you need to be with reasonable efficiency, then its a great vehicle. thats the important thing. after all, we ride bikes right?

Same. My car is way crappier than this.

I'd probably have him work and buy it from you for a fair "learn a lesson" price.

Making him pay some "significant to him" amount of money for the car will make him appreciate it and take care of it as something he bought/invested in rather than a family hand me down that gets trashed.

The car deserves the upkeep.

[peanutgallery]

Exactly, drop the boy off at the farm on Saturdays until he makes enough to buy a 76 Pontiac lemans off of a little old lady. He's not a precious flower, the trials and travails of vehicle ownership must come with an appreciation. Nothing will set him up better for life than figuring car repairs under the shade tree:)

Wait till you get an insurance quote, it'll like buying a new carbon camber comp every year

A kid's first car is supposed to be staggeringly bad. My first car was a 72 Duster with a green door on a blue car (that didn't open, buy the way), ripped bench seats, a Radio Shack cassette player bolted under the dash, and a muffler that didn't muffle anything. I wouldn't give my kid a BMW anything even if I had Bill Gates money.

He needs something safe, slow, and boring, like a Honda. He doesn't need anything cool or fast. So, go buy him a used Civic or CRV and be done with it.

[slidey]

Holy smokes this place is great.

I haven't had time to delve into all responses yet, but thank you all for the advice and suggestions.

Couple of items:

My son hardly factors in here. He is not a car guy, just wants to look decent. He's a shy guy who is cautious and pretty safe....way more Than I was at his age!

He goes to a nice public school where there are kids in Porsches and kids on scooters, and he really is a wallflower and doesn't want to draw much attention to himself.

He doesn't have a lot of mechanical inclination like I do, so any shade tree repairs would be done by moi.

I do have a nice bmw/Mercedes specific off the reservation shop to do the work. They are reputable but still expensive.

I think he will be fine in this car, and this whole delimma is more of a disagreement between my wife and me.

This car fits into our family well in that I can haul bikes in the back, mulch, furniture, etc without worry. It's past pristine so we don't have to baby it.

With its staggered rims (18" I think ). It rides nice and will cruise all day along at 100mph and gets a tick over 20 mpg in the process. Way more than he needs.

I considered a small truck as a replacement that would also fit our needs, but I already have use of a truck that I don't have to maintain. Plus the resale on a decent truck is high and they are hard to find unabused, even here in the land where trucks outnumber cars two to one.

I drove it today and I hate to say, I would rather fix this one up for myself and lend him my e350 to drive than see this one go away. I'd lose my heated seats and satellite radio and navigation, but I could live with either one happily. That sounds crazy but true. It's just a damn car at the end of the day.

Given your son's summary, he sounds closer to me with regard to automotive inclination or lack thereof, so I'll say that a used, japanese reliable car in the 5k-6k range will be the tool that he'd appreciate the most. My demands from a car are 2 fold: reliability+cheap, the rest can go to hell.

Also, statistically, I'm convinced you're wrong when you say that 10K is getting you a crappy car - it might be a true characterization of the lots, but nothing beats patience + CL, as well as not comparing a used cheap car with a brand new one. In short, I suspect, you've looked at the wrong places, spent not enough time in the search, and are bringing your prejudices of what a car should be to the table.

I bought my present car (mazda 6), second hand, for 7K two years back, with 44K miles on it (manual tranny+clean title) - took me close to 5-6 days of vigorous searching. And I live in CA, so yeah, I'm sure you can find better value for your money with some patience. Moreover, this was not a one-off, it was my second car, for a similar price. My only caution would be: don't buy a used GM - trash cans with wheels might be more reliable.

[Ken Robb]

I think all 525it wagons in the USA were automatics and generally speaking after 100,000 miles the trannys were on borrowed time. Self-leveling rear suspension can be expensive when worn out. I have had/loved many BMWs since 1986 and I maintained them more frequently than "normal" because they saw extensive time on race tracks. They good news: they all drove like new at 100,000 miles. The bad news: it cost a lot of $$$ to keep them that way and it wasn't the track driving that made it cost so much. I never replaced a clutch, tranny, diff, engine and I am not counting the brake pads/discs that I used up. But from 1992 on my 3 series cars needed suspension bushings every 30-40,000 miles, radiators-water pumps-thermostat housings every 60,000 miles, window regulators every 3 years.

It's a good thing you son is shy. Wagons were the love vans of my youth. :D

[christian]

You have a decent used car and a 16 year-old. There is literally no question about what to do. Stuff one into the other and hope he doesn't crash it before college.

[Vinci]

Didn't E39 "Sport" also get staggered 17" wheels? Too many years since I've been into that sort of thing, but seem to recollect something like that.
Yep. The 540i sport (V8, 6-speed manual). I nearly bought one of those some years back.

[alancw3]

Holy smokes this place is great.

I haven't had time to delve into all responses yet, but thank you all for the advice and suggestions.

Couple of items:

My son hardly factors in here. He is not a car guy, just wants to look decent. He's a shy guy who is cautious and pretty safe....way more Than I was at his age!

He goes to a nice public school where there are kids in Porsches and kids on scooters, and he really is a wallflower and doesn't want to draw much attention to himself.

He doesn't have a lot of mechanical inclination like I do, so any shade tree repairs would be done by moi.

I do have a nice bmw/Mercedes specific off the reservation shop to do the work. They are reputable but still expensive.

I think he will be fine in this car, and this whole delimma is more of a disagreement between my wife and me.

This car fits into our family well in that I can haul bikes in the back, mulch, furniture, etc without worry. It's past pristine so we don't have to baby it.

With its staggered rims (18" I think ). It rides nice and will cruise all day along at 100mph and gets a tick over 20 mpg in the process. Way more than he needs.

I considered a small truck as a replacement that would also fit our needs, but I already have use of a truck that I don't have to maintain. Plus the resale on a decent truck is high and they are hard to find unabused, even here in the land where trucks outnumber cars two to one.

I drove it today and I hate to say, I would rather fix this one up for myself and lend him my e350 to drive than see this one go away. I'd lose my heated seats and satellite radio and navigation, but I could live with either one happily. That sounds crazy but true. It's just a damn car at the end of the day.

sounds like you already answered the question. safe reliable car for child. what more could you ask for?

[Tickdoc]

sounds like you already answered the question. safe reliable car for child. what more could you ask for?

An understanding wife?

[sevencyclist]

A lot has been said about mechanics of the car etc.

Here is a perspective on finance. One thing to keep in mind is that with high car insurance for new drivers, might be financially sound if you have a "cheap junky car" around for him to designate as his car. Does not have to be the car he drives all the time, but that designation helps to reduce cost while he is still covered for all other cars he drives.

[Ken Robb]

A lot has been said about mechanics of the car etc.

Here is a perspective on finance. One thing to keep in mind is that with high car insurance for new drivers, might be financially sound if you have a "cheap junky car" around for him to designate as his car. Does not have to be the car he drives all the time, but that designation helps to reduce cost while he is still covered for all other cars he drives.

Insurance fraud is not a good idea. My pal used to be an investigator for insurance companies and a lot of his work involved "casual" conversations with the neighbors of insureds as to who drove what cars and how often.

[93legendti]

A BMW as a first car? Not what I could call a good idea. I grew up with many, many luxuries, but my first car was a Chevy without power windows or locks. Amd I was glad to have it to drive when I needed it.

[Tickdoc]

A BMW as a first car? Not what I could call a good idea. I grew up with many, many luxuries, but my first car was a Chevy without power windows or locks. Amd I was glad to have it to drive when I needed it.

I wouldn't call it fast. At 16 yrs old with a straight 6 and extra weight of the wagon it is of average performance.

It is just really solid in its handling and stability, which I like for a kid.

[Dead Man]

Here's the car I'll be purchasing for my kids

http://www.myalarmcenter.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/2014/09/empty-parking-space.jpg

Yea, the one in the middle.

[William]

Here's the car I'll be purchasing for my kids

http://www.myalarmcenter.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/2014/09/empty-parking-space.jpg

Yea, the one in the middle.

Nice!!!

My parents gave me that one as well!:banana:






William

[bikinchris]

Safety first. Cosmetics can wait.

That reminds me of the time I was gassing up my 1970 Mustang. This was about 1988. I had rebuilt the whole car including the suspension, engine, brakes etc. and hadn't gotten to the paint yet. It was a well faded paint that didn't look good. A guy in a 1969 Camaro was across from me filling his car up and giving me a hard time because his car had a great paint job. When he went to start it, it just wouldn't. I called out to him and said, "Hey, watch this." and I reached into the window and tapped the key and it came to life like a champion, rumbling nicely. I left him to his paint job with no car under it.

Do the important stuff first.

[Louis]

Used Honda Civic.

Problem solved.

[jimcav]

but i would get the very safest car you can afford for him. As a cyclist what i have noticed since i started commuting to work the week after 9/11 is that the level of distracted drivers is insane. Safety requirements changed in 2011 or 2012, i think it mainly focused on rollover, but older cars can't pass the new safety standards. Regardless, nothing is more precious than your child, and the distracted drivers don't give a ···· about anyone but themselves. It takes years to get the judgement of how to react to all the a-hole moves distracted drivers make. Loan Rates are still low, my son is 12 and i am already thinking about rates, military discounts (i retire in July) and may sell my cherished but unsafe trans ams (70's) and get a car we can use and then give to him in 4 years.

my 2 cents: assume worst case that a texted hits him, get whatever is the max stars on all types of collision testing that you can afford!

[bigman]

As a father of a daughter who was in a bad accident shortly after getting her license and where she needed to be airlifted due to head trauma I would put safety and reliability as paramount. Newer automobiles truly are new and improved.

[Louis]

As a father of a daughter who was in a bad accident shortly after getting her license and where she needed to be airlifted due to head trauma I would put safety and reliability as paramount. Newer automobiles truly are new and improved.

Safer cars are better, but IMO you'll get a better bang for your buck (so to speak) by having a safer driver (and safe passengers who don't egg them on to do risky stuff).

[ultraman6970]

My opinion is this one, get him a car that is reliable and cheap to repair, no matter how cool a bmw is, at the time of the repairs well... is a BMW, unless you and him can do repairs.

A friend crashed his brand new car, was a nissan sport model, totalled it. Dad told him, doesnt matter here you have the keys of a new one, it is parked outside... Friend was jumping in 1 foot... went outside and did not see any car... Dad where's the car? is this a joke? the only car I see outside is a taxi (in my country are black with yellow top)... Thats you car!!! It is at my name, not at yours so you cant sell it, you wont touch my car or any of the other cars (they had 3 already), so have FUN and hope you dont crash this one.

I knew about this because i saw him parking the taxi like 5 streets away from the university, imagine driving and people trying to make you stop where ever you go. WHen I saw him I said... "hi... Hmm... your dad is funny, he made you learn a lesson the right way, you should be happy he is doing this". he stopped f.... around big time that year. Even the G/f gave him the boot... He learn that lesson too

[jimcav]

Safer cars are better, but IMO you'll get a better bang for your buck (so to speak) by having a safer driver (and safe passengers who don't egg them on to do risky stuff).

definitely agree do all you can to make your child a safe driver, but he/she will be on the road with dozens, hundreds, thousands (depending on your area) who are NOT--that is why you need the safest car. cars that brake themselves don't do anything about the idiot about to hit you (maybe in the future that tech will be mandatory like airbags)

[93legendti]

I wouldn't call it fast. At 16 yrs old with a straight 6 and extra weight of the wagon it is of average performance.

It is just really solid in its handling and stability, which I like for a kid.

I wasn't referring to speed. I think it's too nice of a car for a 16 yr old.


A BMW as a first car? Not what I could call a good idea. I grew up with many, many luxuries, but my first car was a Chevy without power windows or locks. Amd I was glad to have it to drive when I needed it.

[Louis]

definitely agree do all you can to make your child a safe driver, but he/she will be on the road with dozens, hundreds, thousands (depending on your area) who are NOT--that is why you need the safest car.

This raises an interesting point - I bet for males aged 25 yrs and less (guess on my part) the majority of accidents in which they are involved are primarily their fault. Above that I bet it starts to even out, depending on the individual, then above, say, 65 they are again disproportionally responsible for their share of accidents.

[cmg]

get him an 89 honda civic. always cool, easy to fix, parts abound, ton of youtube repair videos, cheap to buy, cheap to drive, no repairs are major.....what's not like? safe..... non-vtecs, non-turbos, it's slow. if you want to spend $10K, buy one for $3k and upgrade the radio

[fogrider]

I drove it today and I hate to say, I would rather fix this one up for myself and lend him my e350 to drive than see this one go away. I'd lose my heated seats and satellite radio and navigation, but I could live with either one happily. That sounds crazy but true. It's just a damn car at the end of the day.

"I bought it new in 2001, ordered it from the factory."

you ordered it from the factory...of course you're going to keep it! not sure why you even asked us! I'm sure it's a fine car and it drives good...but it's just not worth anything. just regular maintenance every year will be more than half the value of the car. the thing about old cars is that it's going to need stuff...the alternator is going to go, hoses need to be replaced, starter, battery, tires, oil change every 3 to 5k, how about the timing belt...oh yeah, belts...just make sure to budget at least $1K a year for it...for a BMW, make it 1,500 a year.

I've always bought my cars, and drove them for 10 plus years. but a few months ago I leased a car. it's a 3 year lease and my monthly is 125. It was 1,150 up front and it comes with a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty. I did the math and it was just way cheaper than keeping my old car going.

[stien]

I want to know what you looked at for 10k...I would be thrilled with that budget. My first car was given to me sure, but with no wheels and a blown out clutch!

I only do Toyota now, I know some people here are euro or die.

[christian]

I wasn't referring to speed. I think it's too nice of a car for a 16 yr old.It's a 14 year-old station wagon. The blue book can't be more than 3-4 grand. Also, note the OP's wife isn't suggesting they buy their son a crappier car, rather a $10k nicer used car. Of those two options, the shaggin' wagon is clearly the right choice.

[Tickdoc]

get him an 89 honda civic. always cool, easy to fix, parts abound, ton of youtube repair videos, cheap to buy, cheap to drive, no repairs are major.....what's not like? safe..... non-vtecs, non-turbos, it's slow. if you want to spend $10K, buy one for $3k and upgrade the radio

my first car that was truly mine was an 87 crx.

It was reliable, but slow.

Wait, it wasn't that reliable. If I recall, there was an expensive timing belt, and some valve issues, and the interior started coming apart after about 150k miles....

[Mikej]

Have you called your insurance agent? I've found WILDY varying costs for a 16 yo -06 Honda PILOT = $1800 per year, SUBARU STI-$5000:eek: That is for a 3.0 GPA primary driver and also includes the Umbrella increase -

[ceolwulf]

^ a 16yo has no business being anywhere near an STi ...

[fuzzalow]

I am truly outta touch if this thread reflects the tribulations of handing down a car to a first driver. They don't get their own car, they access what is available in the family fleet. Anything that runs reliably is all I'd be looking for - which disqualifies the Bimmer wagon. I remember when I first started driving I was happy for anything that moved and that I could actually drive anything and not be walking.

If my kid squawked at anything to do with image of the car I'd say that they can choose anything they like when they can pay for the car themselves.

Most of the millennials don't seem to care that much about cars like the baby boomers does/did. But at a younger age, hard to tell to what degree car culture has taken hold. The good thing is it is temporary - a few more years and the car is no longer needed because it is off to college. The bills from that make car stuff seem trivial.

[Tickdoc]

I am truly outta touch if this thread reflects the tribulations of handing down a car to a first driver. They don't get their own car, they access what is available in the family fleet. Anything that runs reliably is all I'd be looking for - which disqualifies the Bimmer wagon. I remember when I first started driving I was happy for anything that moved and that I could actually drive anything and not be walking.

If my kid squawked at anything to do with image of the car I'd say that they can choose anything they like when they can pay for the car themselves.

Most of the millennials don't seem to care that much about cars like the baby boomers does/did. But at a younger age, hard to tell to what degree car culture has taken hold. The good thing is it is temporary - a few more years and the car is no longer needed because it is off to college. The bills from that make car stuff seem trivial.

You are close, but it is the mom that is squawking here. I say drive it into the ground and then buy something reliable. It is paid for, safe, running, has a good ac, is roadworthy, but not in perfect shape.

Our family has the same ethos....you don't get a car of your choosing unless you pay for it. This is a loaned car you get to use...graciously.

Sure I could sink a lot of money into it to make it better, but why? I'd rather do some minor cosmetic stuff to make it more appealing and wait until the day it billows smoke or blows it's tranny before we get rid of it.

Perfect for a first time driver, IMO.

It is a different generation, for sure. I drove anything that started. I was also anxious to start driving and the first in line at the DMV when I was sixteen.

He waited till he was sixteen and a half and still hasn't taken the thing to school yet. He is still riding the bus. that is crazy, IMO.

Mom is the one who threw out the "lets get you something more reliable" BS and tainted getting this old wagon.

[sitzmark]

It's a 14 year-old station wagon. The blue book can't be more than 3-4 grand. Also, note the OP's wife isn't suggesting they buy their son a crappier car, rather a $10k nicer used car. Of those two options, the shaggin' wagon is clearly the right choice.

Yes. Sounds like an upper/upper middle class neighborhood environment. Kid is not going to fool anyone into thinking he's rich-man-on-campus with a 15yo wagon, nor that he's driving a race car. In dollar terms it isn't worth "anything". We don't know how many miles are on it, but it has been well cared for. The car is a well built vehicle with advanced safety/performance technology for its day, much of which is still relevant - not leading edge, but relevant. Cars of this ilk will easily ride into 150K+ miles with grace if cared for and driven responsibly. As with all higher-end vehicles of the day, electrical gremlins are an ever-present gamble. The mechanics are pretty sound, again depending on miles. $10k will buy a lot of repairs on the vehicle. Maybe it will take $10K to keep it operational for 4-5+ years and maybe it won't. My hunch is it won't.

Dad's not selling the beemer, so the $10k discussed is $10K out-of-pocket day one. Buying someone else's used vehicle will no doubt come with some level of the same gamble regarding what potentially fails. Whatever might fail is money on top of the $10K to get a seat at the table.

Same car to same car, leasing is always more expensive because it covers the heaviest depreciation period. The auto industry does not do leases to lose money. The lease example is another option that could also work depending on the situation, but it won't be "way cheaper". $1150 + $4500= $5650 ($1885/year), with no value at the end of 3 years - turn in the keys. That's $335/year more than the estimated $1,500/year average to maintain the wagon. Maybe the wagon will be somewhat more and maybe it will even be somewhat less, but is still in the ballpark. What a lease does is remove uncertainty ... at a cost, which is generally a very tight bandwidth of miles allowed.

No "cheap" answers for getting a 16yo into driving. Its a game of finding a solution that fits his budget/the family budget and work it from there. Wagon should score some insurance discount, but insurance always requires an advanced degree to navigate unscathed. Research and add to the mix. Or, live a little and don't spreadsheet everything to the penny and compromise on what makes son and dad happy. Mom too!

[Tickdoc]

Yes. Sounds like an upper/upper middle class neighborhood environment. Kid is not going to fool anyone into thinking he's rich-man-on-campus with a 15yo wagon, nor that he's driving a race car. In dollar terms it isn't worth "anything". We don't know how many miles are on it, but it has been well cared for. The car is a well built vehicle with advanced safety/performance technology for its day, much of which is still relevant - not leading edge, but relevant. Cars of this ilk will easily ride into 150K+ miles with grace if cared for and driven responsibly. As with all higher-end vehicles of the day, electrical gremlins are an ever-present gamble. The mechanics are pretty sound, again depending on miles. $10k will buy a lot of repairs on the vehicle. Maybe it will take $10K to keep it operational for 4-5+ years and maybe it won't. My hunch is it won't.

Dad's not selling the beemer, so the $10k discussed is $10K out-of-pocket day one. Buying someone else's used vehicle will no doubt come with some level of the same gamble regarding what potentially fails. Whatever might fail is money on top of the $10K to get a seat at the table.

Same car to same car, leasing is always more expensive because it covers the heaviest depreciation period. The auto industry does not do leases to lose money. The lease example is another option that could also work depending on the situation, but it won't be "way cheaper". $1150 + $4500= $5650 ($1885/year), with no value at the end of 3 years - turn in the keys. That's $335/year more than the estimated $1,500/year average to maintain the wagon. Maybe the wagon will be somewhat more and maybe it will even be somewhat less, but is still in the ballpark. What a lease does is remove uncertainty ... at a cost, which is generally a very tight bandwidth of miles allowed.

No "cheap" answers for getting a 16yo into driving. Its a game of finding a solution that fits his budget/the family budget and work it from there. Wagon should score some insurance discount, but insurance always requires an advanced degree to navigate unscathed. Research and add to the mix. Or, live a little and don't spreadsheet everything to the penny and compromise on what makes son and dad happy. Mom too!

Nice summation that clears up "the delimma".

Add in the fact that dad has an emotional attachment issue with this old wagon and that is where we are.

I am stubborn to a fault, and just don't want to throw good money away for something that is only marginally better.

WTT for a truck would be a good compromise for me. It would suit the family needs for a third car.

Truth is, none of it matters, just a middle class problem of no real consequence.

[fuzzalow]

You are close, but it is the mom that is squawking here. I say drive it into the ground and then buy something reliable. It is paid for, safe, running, has a good ac, is roadworthy, but not in perfect shape.

Our family has the same ethos....you don't get a car of your choosing unless you pay for it. This is a loaned car you get to use...graciously.

[SNIP]

Mom is the one who threw out the "lets get you something more reliable" BS and tainted getting this old wagon.

Your approach sounds sensible to me. Good luck sorting this through. I'd say the Mrs. violated the first rule of Parental Managerial Solidarity & Cohesion by bringing up an offshoot strategy OR you didn't sell her well enough on the reliability aspect of the old Bimmer. In fairness, you can't fault her underlying reason in seeking reliability - Moms will be Moms.

I'm frugal. I'd force the Bimmer into use or get the cheapest reliable car I could find. There must be hundreds of used Toyota Camrys out there for dirt cheap that can reliably run a few years before young Master Tickdoc trundles off to college. All this is temporary - it is car culture that wants people to think that the car reflects something of themselves. But it is just an appliance to get from A to B. Don't overthink this. Car insurance for a teen? Ha! Tuppence compare to tuition-room/board/books that is coming at you faster than you think! Hey, all parents survive that too so this car stuff is really a nit in the bigger picture. Good luck.

[Mikej]

^ a 16yo has no business being anywhere near an STi ...

I know, it was for my own entertainment-

[William]

I think a Bimmer wagon is a pretty safe vehicle as long as all mechanicals are maintained. The reason we hung on to the Volvo was its reliable, and for its time...it's a tank. Older Camerys and the like are reliable vehicles, but they are tin cans in comparison.

My first vehicle I bought from a friends grandfather for about $100. A 69 Buick Electra (not as nice as the one pictured), some rot and mismatched colored doors, but it only had around 60,000 on it and it ran smooth as could be. Learned a lot about taking care of a vehicle, and the one fender bender I had did way more damage to the other persons vehicle then to mine...that was a real tank!

Second car I bought for a couple hundred from a friends dad...240 wagon. Not a looker either, but it lived for a long time and took all the punishment I could dish out on it. :)

So let him use the Bimmer and learn to take care of it. He may or may not dent it up, but no big deal.









William

[nm87710]

I am stubborn to a fault, and just don't want to throw good money away for something that is only marginally better.


Good Luck!

[estilley]

Second car I bought for a couple hundred from a friends dad...240 wagon. Not a looker either, but it lived for a long time and took all the punishment I could dish out on it. :)

So let him use the Bimmer and learn to take care of it. He may or may not dent it up, but no big deal.

William


I'll second the 240...my family went through two of them during the high school years.

As for me, this was my high school beast. Rigged it to run biodiesel...usually worked except when the temp dropped below 40 degrees and the oil coagulated.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ecUqCaTeYIU/maxresdefault.jpg

[93legendti]

It's a 14 year-old station wagon. The blue book can't be more than 3-4 grand. Also, note the OP's wife isn't suggesting they buy their son a crappier car, rather a $10k nicer used car. Of those two options, the shaggin' wagon is clearly the right choice.

I got all that.

I still think a BMW is too nice a car for my 16 yr old.
The issue of it being the lesser of two evils doesn't make it a good choice. There is a difference between good and best of 2 options.

Luckily, I just discussed this with my teenager and she indicated that IF she got a car to use, she would be ecstatic with something that runs well and has 4 wheel drive for Michigan winters.

Ymmv.

[christian]

l and has 4 wheel drive for Michigan winters.Kids need to learn about snow tires I guess. :)

[William]

I learned how to drive in the snow in a rear wheel drive beater boat. I wasn't worried about putting it into a snow bank, but what I learned then about driving on slick surfaces has served me well ever since.







William

[slidey]

Maybe I'm missing something very basic here.

OP: You say your son is presently commuting via public transportation. If he doesn't see the need, as his actions show, why all the hustle bustle to get him on a vehicle? :confused:

[azrider]

Here's the car I'll be purchasing for my kids

http://www.myalarmcenter.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/2014/09/empty-parking-space.jpg

Yea, the one in the middle.

lol

[Tickdoc]

Maybe I'm missing something very basic here.

OP: You say your son is presently commuting via public transportation. If he doesn't see the need, as his actions show, why all the hustle bustle to get him on a vehicle? :confused:


By public transportation, he is riding a school bus.

Fine with me, but being sixteen, legally licensed, and having a car to drive...there is no way in hell I would ride a school bus.

Part of that is this elitist stigmatism with public transportation that exists here where I live.

Public transit is rarely used by anyone able-bodied or gainfully employed. Hell, we'll drive across the street to get milk.

Walking, bike riding, or public transportation of any sort caries with it a huge connotation that you are poor here where I live, and it is sadly considered socially unacceptable.

A big part of that is our infrastructure. It is hard to walk here where side walks are few and distances between stores and such are separated. (thank you car companies)

[Tickdoc]

My first vehicle I bought from a friends grandfather for about $100. A 69 Buick Electra (not as nice as the one pictured), some rot and mismatched colored doors, but it only had around 60,000 on it and it ran smooth as could be. Learned a lot about taking care of a vehicle, and the one fender bender I had did way more damage to the other persons vehicle then to mine...that was a real tank!

Second car I bought for a couple hundred from a friends dad...240 wagon. Not a looker either, but it lived for a long time and took all the punishment I could dish out on it. :)

So let him use the Bimmer and learn to take care of it. He may or may not dent it up, but no big deal.



William

Both of those are great but I love that Electra.

I watched the French Connection last night and had a blast watching the old 60's-70's cars and being reminded of how far we have come, yet how much we have lost.

Very analogous to the difference between a steel bike and carbon.

[buddybikes]

Perfect car to sew his oats

[Louis]

When I was in HS (late 70's) this was my first car. (not this specific one, but this model and color) The engine compression was so bad that on a slight hill and engine off 1st gear was not enough to hold the car in place. But it ran and got me around town just fine.

http://www.vantagesportscars.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/22.68JC-542x404.jpg

[Ken Robb]

Perfect car to sew his oats

What size needle does one use to "sew" oats? :)

[Tickdoc]

Coerced my wife into fixing up the old wagon.

Found a guy who does "dealer prep work". For many of the car lots. Brought him a bumper skin I found on eBay, he had to buy some new undergrad and small parts, painted the bumper, hood, and the rear bumper, and then he polished and sealed the old headlights to a brand spanking new gleaming finish.

My estimate from two different body shops was $4-5000 for the same work. The final tally was $1600! Still a chunk of change, but way less than a new car and he has done well proving he can take care of the car.

Still needs a new valve cover gasket and some steering pump work, but it looks a hundred times better and he is loving it.

Heck, I'm tempted to just keep it for myself and give him mine!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Handgod/77145BD0-1D73-496F-BDCD-2BA054065681_zpsawvp6xjx.jpg

[AngryScientist]

that came out great doc. looks sharp. i'd drive that, for sure.

[pjm]

Looks great. Looks like you slapped some fancier wheels on it, too. And staggered to boot!

[azrider]

dude that is for sure a keeper. well done :hello:

[sitzmark]

Niz!

[estilley]

Wow that's about to be a babe magnet! Better watch out!

Beats my old Mercedes 240D I had in high school...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gsinill]

Nice, congrats, $1,600 well spent! :)

[Gsinill]

Beats my old Mercedes 240D I had in high school...


Nope, the only thing that beats that one is a 200D (had 3 of them)

[thirdgenbird]

Lucky kid. That's one of my favorite cars ever made.

[Tickdoc]

Lucky kid. That's one of my favorite cars ever made.

Thanks for all the nice words.

I bought it new in 2001, first new car I ever bought. It was early in production phase in Germany, so we got to pick the black interior and everything but the exterior color, which I already liked. Been a good car, just neglected over the last five or six years. Hauled my daughter home from the hospital in it, along with bikes, furniture, plants, dogs, Etc over the years.

It represents the end of the line of old school bmw's. I feel they kinda went off the tracks after this series ran out. You used to be able to tell a 3 from a 5 from a 7 by the shape of the grill alone. The straight six is still strong, and even with 140k it still is happy all day cruising in the 90-100 mph range.

[stephenmarklay]

Looks great.

Safety will be my main concern when my kids are old enough. Young drivers run into ****. When I was 16 I did a number on my dads company car. That was the only accident I have ever had.

[wasfast]

One caution a friend of mine mentioned back when our kids were starting to drive; don't give them a vehicle that can haul lots of their friends (station wagons, vans etc.). Given the odds that they've have an accident in those early years, better not to have a car load of people involved as well. Multiple people of that age in a car also lead to plenty of distractions and such. Food for thought.

[carpediemracing]

One caution a friend of mine mentioned back when our kids were starting to drive; don't give them a vehicle that can haul lots of their friends (station wagons, vans etc.). Given the odds that they've have an accident in those early years, better not to have a car load of people involved as well. Multiple people of that age in a car also lead to plenty of distractions and such. Food for thought.

Although rules aren't always followed, in this state it's illegal for a younger driver to drive at night, with passengers, etc, at least until they're 18. It doesn't mean there aren't crashes with multiple kids in a single car when the driver is 18 but at least there's some expectations in place.

The passenger rule is related to peer pressure, not necessarily reducing casualties. Accident rates apparently climb with peers around.

[shovelhd]

That is one sweet wagon.