Aero bikes: How much difference do they make?

[Onno]

I enjoy doing triathlons, but I've resisted the (very mild) temptation to get a dedicated 'tri-bike', in part as a way of not becoming an all out tri-geek. I put aero bars on my Concours and push the saddle forward, and that's about it. I can average about 22mph on most triathlon rides, and I often pass folks on tri bikes with all the aero trimmings.

So how much difference do all the trimmings make? My guess is that the aero bars help some and that wheels might make a similar small difference. But what about everything else--the aero tubing and handlebars, seat post etc.? Are these features just about looking fast or do they actually make a measurable difference? Are we talking about seconds over a 40k race, or minutes?

[Fixed]

you make the biggest difference . bro
cheers

[victoryfactory]

They make a big difference to me,
I can't stand looking at them.
I can't imagine being flexible enough to ride like that
I don't want to ride like that.
I can't catch them.

VF, old school is now in session

[Bruce K]

This has been a fairly hot topic of discussion around here lately as our club's TT season has gotten underway.

One of our race guys knows the kid at MIT who did all the wind tunnel testing for CSC et al.

His take is that position/aero bars is the major factor. Then wheels, closely followed by the helmet.

He actually said that for the buck, an aero helmet buys you more time than aero wheels after you have your position dialed in.

Another interesting comment was that some of the cheaper helmets like the Garneau Prolog (now being discontinued and on sale cheap at several websites) are almost as good as the whiz-bang big buck super-duper helmets.

Again, this was the chat in the TT parking lot and has been going on for a while now, so take it FWIW.

BK

[Bruce K]

To avoid any confusion, the comment of helmet vs wheels was meant to indicate time gain for dollars spent, not that helmets give you a greater advantage then wheels.

BK

[dbrk]

Eight seconds. Ask Fignon.

manet inspired,
dbrk

[ada@prorider.or]

Are we talking about seconds over a 40k race, or minutes?

we talking minutes here
even tyre´s in aerodynamics make a differance

there is a lot to be gained

[swoop]

a dedicated tt bike with a disc will knock minutes off your time in a tt. the longer the tt the more time it will save. the flatter the tt the more time it will save.

enough so that you will feel the diffeence before you even look at your time.

[Onno]

This is pretty interesting, to me at least.
A couple more questions:
How much difference does the frame itself make?

How much difference is there between various degrees of 'aero' wheels?
I'm thinking about getting some new wheels, but I'm not that interested in getting high tech and (can't afford in any case) carbon wheels. Does it make sense simply in terms of improving speed to get wheels with an aero rim and bladed spokes?

Thanks.

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=Onno]This is pretty interesting, to me at least.
A couple more questions:
How much difference does the frame itself make?


about 35 watts at 50 km/h

we tested 2 best time trail frame´s
both with exactly same component setups


(i informed the frame producer there funny they where not interested in the result)


How much difference is there between various degrees of 'aero' wheels?
I'm thinking about getting some new wheels, but I'm not that interested in getting high tech and (can't afford in any case) carbon wheels. Does it make sense simply in terms of improving speed to get wheels with an aero rim and bladed spokes?


on wheels i do not comment because i do not want to comment on competitors product




Thks.[/QUOT

[Jason E]

we tested 2 best time trail frame´s

How do you know which two are the best two..... ;)

[Orin]

They make a big difference to me,

I can't imagine being flexible enough to ride like that

VF, old school is now in session

The whole point of the steep seat angle forward position is that it shouldn't require you to be any more flexible... the angles between legs, arms and torso should be pretty much the same as they are with your regular road position.

As to whether a TT bike is faster, the people I ride with groan if I ride my Cervelo Dual rather than my Legend. Seems that it's a couple of mph faster in the aero position and puts the hurt on them if I'm on the front. Unfortunately, the non-aero position doesn't seem as good as that on the drops on the Legend, with the result that I feel it's easier pulling on the Cervelo in the aero position than sitting in in the non-aero position.

Orin.

[ada@prorider.or]

How do you know which two are the best two..... ;)

well easy by measuring its aerodynamics
and calc its dynamic presure

[Jason E]

the " ;) " means I was just kidding, as that's another can of worms from this discussion, but since you mentioned it.....

You guys got your hands on and measured EVERY top level TT frame out there and got their measurements??

[ada@prorider.or]

the " ;) " means I was just kidding, as that's another can of worms from this discussion, but since you mentioned it.....

You guys got your hands on and measured EVERY top level TT frame out there and got their measurements??

well we do measuments on differant level
and even we can do it live !!!!
with the right protocal and equipment

that is result of years programming testing and analysing

[Jason E]

well we do measuments on differant level
and even we can do it live !!!!
with the right protocal and equipment

that is result of years programming testing and analysing

How do you factor out ALL of the other conditions? Rider, weather, course, components, etc?

[ada@prorider.or]

How do you factor out ALL of the other conditions? Rider, weather, course, components, etc?

the frame testing we do in a windtunnel
a complete CDA and CRR we can do out side of windtunnel we also can make a 3D drawing and make CFD calc and compare those
with our experiance in both we can determine and predict alot

[Jason E]

So.... What are the two best? :D

[palincss]

Eight seconds. Ask Fignon.

manet inspired,
dbrk

I thought that was the ponytail, not the aero bars. ;)

[ada@prorider.or]

So.... What are the two best? :D

well you asking numbers that others payed for
and that of course we cannot reveal
sorry but i think you would understand
this is something a magazine sould do
:banana:

[keno]

the frame testing we do in a windtunnel
a complete CDA and CRR we can do out side of windtunnel we also can make a 3D drawing and make CFD calc and compare those
with our experiance in both we can determine and predict alot

are the results independent of who is sitting on the bike in the wind tunnel? That is to say, the absolute differences between the two bikes would be the same regardless of the shape of the person sitting on it as well as regardless of differences in clothing, so long as each person was the same and dressed the same for each test?

keno

[ada@prorider.or]

are the results independent of who is sitting on the bike in the wind tunnel? That is to say, the absolute differences between the two bikes would be the same regardless of the shape of the person sitting on it as well as regardless of differences in clothing, so long as each person was the same and dressed the same for each test?

keno
well its complex
becuase riders interact on the frame ´s air flow
and you have angle of attack of the wind too
so to test you do a lot of differant setups to determine what is the best
and of course if you can predcit something by cfd calc you have won a lot of windtunnel time

and of course the test must be the same person and dressed the same in the same position

at every degree of attack of the wind

[Ginger]

Ok...I'll ask a stupid question. When you write: Every angle of the attack of the wind.


Do they test with a tailwind?

[obtuse]

cees-
an obtuse question if i may; what is your feeling on steep seat angle positions versus slack? which is more aerodynamic? which is faster?

obtuse

[ada@prorider.or]

Ok...I'll ask a stupid question. When you write: Every angle of the attack of the wind.


Do they test with a tailwind?<
well no this because the most wind comes from 10-20 degrees
and it has no point in doing that
because the aerodynamic gain is when to calculate this
and when its more the 30 degree as a result of riding speed and tailwind you must have very hard tailwind an then how bigger you are the faster


its easy to calc this

[ada@prorider.or]

cees-
an obtuse question if i may; what is your feeling on steep seat angle positions versus slack? which is more aerodynamic? which is faster?

obtuse
depands on the riders shape and form
you cannot say this is faster then that

i personaly am for a 72 degree angle
i rode in my triathlon time also very steep angle´s
up to 90 degree
but my fastest time´s where always at 72 degree
and i can tell you i was a fast rider


but in a lot of testing its really up to the rider what´s ideal

and we can have a 3D tool now to measure all this

[stevep]

i dont want to mention the glaring and most obvious point. it all depends on how fast you can go...cees is used to doing this for athletes who can go fast. a lot of riders do not go fast enough to benefit very much.
if you are riding along at 22mph average...all the aero shiite in the world wont make much difference...
if you can tt something like 30mph the benefit will be tremendous.
my recollection of the lemond final tt was that he averaged something like 34 mph for the distance.
this would hugely benefit from aero stuff....not to repeat but ask fignon.
i would hesitate to recommend to dbrk that he put aero wheels on the rambouillet for the ramble... or that he wear an aero helmet...
although the entertainment value might make it all worthwhile.

[ada@prorider.or]

well i my time i was doing 50 km/h with out any problem
i was just a riders who loved and trained his bike and running ,i could bike fast so why should not some else do that it not fair to say that we normaly ride at time trail 22 mph

well if you give me your parameters i can roughly calc how much gain you would have with a better aerodynamics
give me your avg power weight and i will do a simpel calc and do a screen dump from the calculation

[stevep]

note the initial post. onno said his tt times average 22 mph.
if he gets your wheels will he be able to go 50k per hour?
in that case he surely should go for it.

...how much does this equipment help a rider who rides 37k per hour?

[ada@prorider.or]

note the initial post. onno said his tt times average 22 mph.
if he gets your wheels will he be able to go 50k per hour?
in that case he surely should go for it.

...how much does this equipment help a rider who rides 37k per hour?
again this has nothing to do with wheels

please skip that i only wanted to say that aero will help at 40 km time trail

and no he does not go from 37 km/h to 50 km /h
at least if you does not take what mr jim advised (for 160.000 $ a year ) then he might get close to it

[Jason E]

Sorry, I was out for a few hours.

I would like to know how you compare/model different frames without actually haveing them?

You had said this was not the right way to go (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=180440&postcount=1), and the modeling of the frames would need to be precise, so how did you get the info for all of the different frames?

[ada@prorider.or]

well i did rough calc
if you did 37,km/h
you would go about time trail 40 k about 1:04:48 sec
and with good aero you would go avg
41,9 time 57:16

all same power out put
250 watts

[ada@prorider.or]

Sorry, I was out for a few hours.

I would like to know how you compare/model different frames without actually haveing them?

You had said this was not the right way to go (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=180440&postcount=1), and the modeling of the frames would need to be precise, so how did you get the info for all of the different frames?
we measure the frame´s our selve in windtunnel

[CJH]

Get these:

http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Wheel+Cover&vendorCode=CHAERO&major=1&minor=24

[zeroking17]

Here's a taste of the kind of aerodynamic testing that Cees is talking abount:

http://ada.prorider.org/aero


...

[Jason E]

the frame testing we do in a windtunnel
a complete CDA and CRR we can do out side of windtunnel we also can make a 3D drawing and make CFD calc and compare those
with our experiance in both we can determine and predict alot

we measure the frame´s our selve in windtunnel

I know he's got experience... He's freakin' Cees! :D

My question was regarding how they get which two are the best, as per his earlier statement. He said they could do them live, but then he talks about prediction, but in earlier threads discussing aerodynamics predictions were no good and situations had to be exaclty the same.

My question is how'd he get his hands on every top end frame for testing to determine which two were the best. Seems like a rediculous amount of windtunnel time.

Cee's, maybe you meant "two of the best" as opposed to "the two best"? Because "the two best" is saying you've tested everything equally in the same conditions, no?

[ada@prorider.or]

ICee's, maybe you meant "two of the best" as opposed to "the two best"? Because "the two best" is saying you've tested everything equally in the same conditions, no?

yes we tested evrything in the same conditions!


and by live i mean that we can determine the rider´s cda and roll coeff
by doing a certain protocal

and with the right equipment to do this

and out doors( with out windtunnel)

[Jason E]

How can it be done live/outdoors and be under the same conditions?

You had said in a post regarding wheel aerodynamics that things like atmospheric pressure and even the amount of smog in the air made a difference. You had said that different windtunnels have different reynolds numbers and that it was very important to test under the same conditions.

These were some of the cornerstones in your argument against others claims about wheel aerodynamics, which is much less complex then a frame, a drivetrain and a moving human body..... And wheels.

This does not follow the logic you had laid down for us.

Help me understand how you can KNOW the aerodynamics of so many different frames without being able to get your hands on them and put them in similar testing conditions to claim to know which two are the best, please.

[ada@prorider.or]

How can it be done live/outdoors and be under the same conditions?

You had said in a post regarding wheel aerodynamics that things like atmospheric pressure and even the amount of smog in the air made a difference. You had said that different windtunnels have different reynolds numbers and that it was very important to test under the same conditions.

These were some of the cornerstones in your argument against others claims about wheel aerodynamics, which is much less complex then a frame, a drivetrain and a moving human body..... And wheels.

This does not follow the logic you had laid down for us.

Help me understand how you can KNOW the aerodynamics of so many different frames without being able to get your hands on them and put them in similar testing conditions to claim to know which two are the best, please.

i think you mis understand me
we can do live cda measurement of bike rider on a bike
thats means at that moment

well i testing in windtunnels (wich each have a specific reynolds number and what you call a profile of air pressure)
if you want to compare numbers you have to do that in the same tunnel with the same air speed
so if you do the same test at another windtunnel you get an other number this is due how the windtunnel is build and how they measure


its riding in a box
and evry box is differant

so if you measure out doors
you can do that test the same day under the same circumstance´s

so same temp same smog same air presure

[Onno]

i dont want to mention the glaring and most obvious point. it all depends on how fast you can go...cees is used to doing this for athletes who can go fast. a lot of riders do not go fast enough to benefit very much.
if you are riding along at 22mph average...all the aero shiite in the world wont make much difference...
if you can tt something like 30mph the benefit will be tremendous.
my recollection of the lemond final tt was that he averaged something like 34 mph for the distance.
this would hugely benefit from aero stuff....not to repeat but ask fignon.
i would hesitate to recommend to dbrk that he put aero wheels on the rambouillet for the ramble... or that he wear an aero helmet...
although the entertainment value might make it all worthwhile.


Yes, I think this is the key point. At the few triathlons I've done, no one rides faster than about 24 mph over 40 k (though it's worth pointing out that the rides have all been relatively hilly, being in CNY). In these conditions, at these speeds, will a fully 'aeroized' bike gain minutes or seconds? Someone I rode with a few years ago who only did TTs told me that unless you averaged over 25mph, aero gear was relatively pointless. I find it hard to believe that the benefits are discrete as this, though. Presumably if you're riding 15mph into a 10mph headwind, aero gear is helping you as much as if you're going 25mph into calm air.

[ada@prorider.or]

Yes, I think this is the key point. At the few triathlons I've done, no one rides faster than about 24 mph over 40 k (though it's worth pointing out that the rides have all been relatively hilly, being in CNY). In these conditions, at these speeds, will a fully 'aeroized' bike gain minutes or seconds? Someone I rode with a few years ago who only did TTs told me that unless you averaged over 25mph, aero gear was relatively pointless. I find it hard to believe that the benefits are discrete as this, though. Presumably if you're riding 15mph into a 10mph headwind, aero gear is helping you as much as if you're going 25mph into calm air.
well i do not want to make this a long discussion but i do not agree with you
i done a simple calc for you see prev answer there you can see its minutes

and as a former tri athlete i also know it from experinance

[Onno]

I think I'm agreeing with you, actually. Average speeds are deceptive, because especially on a windy or hilly course, one is almost never riding one's average speed. I can be riding seemingly long stretches at 45kph on gentle descents or good flat roads, or less that 20 kph going uphill. So my guess is that even for slower riders, aero gear can make a not insignificant difference.

Are wheel aerodynamics more important than frame aerodynamics? Equivalent?

[ada@prorider.or]

I think I'm agreeing with you, actually. Average speeds are deceptive, because especially on a windy or hilly course, one is almost never riding one's average speed. I can be riding seemingly long stretches at 45kph on gentle descents or good flat roads, or less that 20 kph going uphill. So my guess is that even for slower riders, aero gear can make a not insignificant difference.

Are wheel aerodynamics more important than frame aerodynamics? Equivalent?


well the basis of cycling is over come roll resitance,
and air resistance
the air resitance is much and much bigger then roll resisistance so very gain what you can get here is important this detemine your speed!!!
if there where no air resistance and only rolling resistance you woul be flying with a minimum of power
if your are climbing you have to overcome gravity of your weight
but again do not mimimize air restistance and think it simply not there when your climbing

well that why we developed software to easy see where you gain the most
minimize weight over aerodynamics

as time trial of triathlon are seldom at high climbing perc
you could generale say air resistance is and minimize this is the most important here
and again we talk about min here not seconds

if you give me a race course i easily can calc this
with or with out mountains climbs

[flydhest]

Cees,
Thanks for the insights. I think one question people are still wondering, though, is the relative importance of aero wheels relative to "good" position on the bike (which you can define as you like) and aero tubing on bikes. It's my guess (with no data at all) that the last is by far the least important, but I don't know about the other two.

What is your view based on your exerience?

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees,
is the relative importance of aero wheels relative to "good" position on the bike (which you can define as you like) and aero tubing on bikes. It's my guess (with no data at all) that the last is by far the least important, but I don't know about the other two.

What is your view based on your exerience?

well this of course depands of the wind,but roughly your body takes 2/3 of the aerodynamics 1 /3 the bike

the more wind the more important the shapes are

if you take a round tube frame as a example
and a frame like cervelo for normal climbing the cervelo is much faster

as for wind on every bike 2 disc wheels are always the fastest
compare to any other wheel

[gt6267a]

I am enjoying this thread but find myself searching for more information (not sure it is available?) and suspect the original poster is looking for similar info? I am curious to know the expected impact of upgrades over a standard road bike. To know what gains are achieved by purchasing aero components and make a cost benefit analysis.

The way I am thinking comes out like this, let us say that I ride at an average of 20mph=32kmh over 40 KM on a Serotta Concours in “standard” road bike setup with open pros, and giro monza helmet. I weigh 185lbs.

Given the same power output, what is the expected time for these upgrades:

* TT wheels only.
* TT helmet only.
* Aero bars only.
* TT frame only. No TT wheels, helmet, or aero bars ( though I do recognize it may be difficult odd to upgrade the frame without the bars?)
* Some other upgrade I don’t know to include here.
* Everything, TT wheels, helmet, bars, and frame.

Then, what about with initial speeds of 25mph=40kmh and 30mph=48kmh? As the percent increase in benefit is non-linear, at what speed comes the sharp bend in the curve?

While I don’t know if this information is available, this is the type of information that seems relevant. Or, I suppose, a published number representing a product’s wind resistance?

[ada@prorider.or]

F=Cd*A*0,5*rho*V^2 (bij rolweerstand 0)

Cd.A=F/(0,5*rho*V^2)

so you can calc your selve

F=force
rho=airdensity
v=velocity

[Onno]

I am enjoying this thread but find myself searching for more information (not sure it is available?) and suspect the original poster is looking for similar info? I am curious to know the expected impact of upgrades over a standard road bike. To know what gains are achieved by purchasing aero components and make a cost benefit analysis.


This was indeed the kind of information I'm looking for, but I think I'm getting it. I began by thinking that much of the fancy and very expensive tri-bike stuff was superfluous. I now think that it really does gain you some time, even at my level.

There are other questions here though, much vaguer ones, not susceptible to formulas. I've finished in the top 10% of finishers in the races I've entered, with only aero bars on my bike. I think a full-on tri bike might gain me a couple of minutes, moving me up one or two spots on the over-all finish list. Since only vanity is at stake here, I'm inclined to buy some good aeroish wheels, and perhaps a helmet, and keep riding the Concours, telling myself I've done enough to play the game fairly seriously. Then too I can always keep thinking that I might have beat the next guy if I'd had his bike.... :D

Onno

[swoop]

get a rear disc, a tt helmet, aero bars with your hands together as possible, and a skin suit. train on it at least twice a week. i promise you that you will move up in the standings.

tt'ing is a psychological and physiological skill. you have to train both systems. it requires a different level of concentration and focus.do youknow your optimal cadence and wattage at threshold?

have you trained yourself to not shut down at above threshold? it's like learning not to gag.
practice practice practice.

[stevep]

cees,
remember a couple of years ago some mechanic put ullrichs front aero 4 spoke wheel on backwards?
how much did this cost the big german?
a lot i bet.

you know these wheels? how are they for tt?
i have a set that my team guys use..they seem very fast...

[obtuse]

cees,
remember a couple of years ago some mechanic put ullrichs front aero 4 spoke wheel on backwards?
how much did this cost the big german?
a lot i bet.

you know these wheels? how are they for tt?
i have a set that my team guys use..they seem very fast...


untill you bring those things in in tubular; i'm going to have to deny you the chance to have 38th place or lower being won on them in the fitchburg cat 2 time trial.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

I am enjoying this thread but find myself searching for more information (not sure it is available?) and suspect the original poster is looking for similar info? I am curious to know the expected impact of upgrades over a standard road bike. To know what gains are achieved by purchasing aero components and make a cost benefit analysis.

The way I am thinking comes out like this, let us say that I ride at an average of 20mph=32kmh over 40 KM on a Serotta Concours in “standard” road bike setup with open pros, and giro monza helmet. I weigh 185lbs.

Given the same power output, what is the expected time for these upgrades:

* TT wheels only.
* TT helmet only.
* Aero bars only.
* TT frame only. No TT wheels, helmet, or aero bars ( though I do recognize it may be difficult odd to upgrade the frame without the bars?)
* Some other upgrade I don’t know to include here.
* Everything, TT wheels, helmet, bars, and frame.

Then, what about with initial speeds of 25mph=40kmh and 30mph=48kmh? As the percent increase in benefit is non-linear, at what speed comes the sharp bend in the curve?

While I don’t know if this information is available, this is the type of information that seems relevant. Or, I suppose, a published number representing a product’s wind resistance?


I think this is what you are looking for:

http://www.damonrinard.com/aero/formulas.htm

At over 30 km/h the wind resistance becomes significant.
Personally, i've always considered 40 km/h as the point at
which the fashion police won't pull you over if you're pimped-out
in full aero gear. If you can't do 40 for an hour, spend time
on the bike instead of money on gear.

g

[stevep]

untill you bring those things in in tubular; i'm going to have to deny you the chance to have 38th place or lower being won on them in the fitchburg cat 2 time trial.

obtuse


hahaha.
3 yrs ago j mckone ( 35+ ) rode the tt and finished 7th.
2 yrs ago i gave him those wheels to use for the tt...
he won by considerable seconds. it subtracted something like 50 seconds from his time. he was surprised. i was not.
those wheels are cool and fast. im interested in what cees has to say about them.
if you get on the first page in the tt i will owe you dinner... with frytshythyus credit card.

[nm87710]

Maybe this "Speed For Sale" info will help...
http://www.usacycling.org/membership/support/SpendMoney.pdf

[ada@prorider.or]

. im interested in what cees has to say about them.
.

well as much that i like to give detailed comments about differant wheels ,i wonn´t becuase people will think that i am only talking that way becuase i am also a manufacture

what i can say these wheels your meantioned are fast
faster then normal old fashion spoke wheel
but not the fastest wheels
and with all the test i have done disc wheels where always the fastest!!


of course there lot differant disc wheels also and a lot differance between them


and as you know my main field is in the top segment where every second count´s and advise my client also that way ,even if another product is better then our´s we advise to take that
hence the train so much only winnning thats whats all about it here



well that why i am glad that the state championships is won at a certain class

is it not surpising that a old men about 50 beats a lot of pro rider´s got to mean something that we doing
good
:banana: :banana:

[William]

What Bruce said:

You the motor...
Aero bars...
Wheels...
Helmet..
Period.



William

[stevep]

disc wheels are certainly fast... but are there not conditions which affect the performance?
hilly course?
windy day?
i rarely see anyone race with a disc front wheel... even though clearly the front wheel would have more benefit that the rear wheel disc. why is that?

how much advantage to front vs rear disc? 70%/30%? ?


and what about...how much time did ullrich lose when his wheel was put on backward?

[ada@prorider.or]

disc wheels are certainly fast... but are there not conditions which affect the performance?
hilly course?
well this you can calc whic is best in curcumstance
but general you can say disc is also the fastest here in most situations


windy day?
then even more


i rarely see anyone race with a disc front wheel... even though clearly the front wheel would have more benefit that the rear wheel disc. why is that?

the only reason not to use a disc wheel is that you cannot hold the bike due to its dynamic pressure of the wind
i pesonaly have tested it up to 6 beaufort
with 2 disc was the fastest
i personly always would ride them
but can uderstand that light people are worried that they would blow of their bike´s ,due to its dynamic pressure




how much advantage to front vs rear disc? 70%/30%? ?
depands on wind yaw and dynamic pressure


and what about...how much time did ullrich lose when his wheel was put on backward?
well that was depanding on the wind
becuase we have tested several wheel like that also 3 +4 +5 spokes
they where actuly faster in o yaw but when it came to yaw they where losing
its a complex thing you must have a profile of the terrain and cda data of the wheel to make a hard statement

[stevep]

thanks for the response.

it is getting like nordic skiing in classical.
so dependent on the right wax to perform and the wax is so dependent on the conditions and the temp and the variation in the temperature.
right wax + good athlete= gold medal
wrong wax + better athlete= no medal

the jerk told me to put both aero wheels on backward to slow down... like a parachute behind a race car...seems to work actually....except i cant get the thing going.

[Ken Lehner]

note the initial post. onno said his tt times average 22 mph.
if he gets your wheels will he be able to go 50k per hour?
in that case he surely should go for it.

...how much does this equipment help a rider who rides 37k per hour?

The slower rider will save more time than the faster rider with a given aerodynamic improvement; if you take the time to think about it you'll understand. There's no magical difference in aerodynamics between 50kph and 37kph.

[Ken Lehner]

Yes, I think this is the key point. At the few triathlons I've done, no one rides faster than about 24 mph over 40 k (though it's worth pointing out that the rides have all been relatively hilly, being in CNY). In these conditions, at these speeds, will a fully 'aeroized' bike gain minutes or seconds? Someone I rode with a few years ago who only did TTs told me that unless you averaged over 25mph, aero gear was relatively pointless. I find it hard to believe that the benefits are discrete as this, though. Presumably if you're riding 15mph into a 10mph headwind, aero gear is helping you as much as if you're going 25mph into calm air.

Here are the top ten bike splits from this weekend's Eagleman triathlon, which was a 56 mile bike (to be followed by a 13.1mile run). Note that there was a huge wind on this day:

OVERALL BIKE RESULTS - MALE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place No. Firstname Lastname S Ag City St Bike Rate
===== ===== ======================= = == ========================== ======= ====
1 1144 JOSH BECK M 28 CARLISLE PA 2:07:53 26.3
2 2 CHRISTOPHER LEGH M 33 LYONS CO 2:08:43 26.1
3 24 KIERAN DOE M 25 SAN DIEGO CA 2:10:25 25.8
4 947 MARC BONNET-EYMARD M 34 WINTER GARDEN FL 2:12:32 25.4
5 10 TJ TOLLAKSON M 25 URBANDALE IA 2:13:06 25.2
6 5 LEON GRIFFIN M 25 KANGAROO FLAT CA 2:14:25 25.0
7 1025 JOE LIBERTO M 32 NEW WINDSOR MD 2:15:17 24.8
8 3 RAGNAR ALNE M 24 BROOKLYN NY 2:16:51 24.6
9 1154 MIKE CAIAZZO M 29 SCARBOROUGH ME 2:17:05 24.5
10 1229 ALEX MROSZCZYK-MCDONALD M 25 BURLINGTON VT 2:17:24 24.5

18 riders were over 40kph for the 56 miles.

[Onno]

I don't know what the Eagleman course looks like, but the Keuka Lake Intermediate triathlon I did this weekend had a 700ft climb over about 2 miles that slowed things down a lot, and a strong wind. The bike speeds of the top 15 finishers were between 22.3 and 19.4.. On the one flatish course I've done so far I averaged 3mph faster than I did on Sunday.

[coylifut]

given 3/4s of the cat 3 field can do a sub 1 hour 40k tt, the results below don't surprise me at all. What really blows me away is how fast those guys can run a 1/2 marathon after doing it.

I think the question is still floating out there un answered. How much time can the average athlete cut by buying speed in the form of a disk, aero front wheel and a funny looking helmet?

Do you think it's as much as a couple of minutes over 40k?


Here are the top ten bike splits from this weekend's Eagleman triathlon, which was a 56 mile bike (to be followed by a 13.1mile run). Note that there was a huge wind on this day:

OVERALL BIKE RESULTS - MALE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place No. Firstname Lastname S Ag City St Bike Rate
===== ===== ======================= = == ========================== ======= ====
1 1144 JOSH BECK M 28 CARLISLE PA 2:07:53 26.3
2 2 CHRISTOPHER LEGH M 33 LYONS CO 2:08:43 26.1
3 24 KIERAN DOE M 25 SAN DIEGO CA 2:10:25 25.8
4 947 MARC BONNET-EYMARD M 34 WINTER GARDEN FL 2:12:32 25.4
5 10 TJ TOLLAKSON M 25 URBANDALE IA 2:13:06 25.2
6 5 LEON GRIFFIN M 25 KANGAROO FLAT CA 2:14:25 25.0
7 1025 JOE LIBERTO M 32 NEW WINDSOR MD 2:15:17 24.8
8 3 RAGNAR ALNE M 24 BROOKLYN NY 2:16:51 24.6
9 1154 MIKE CAIAZZO M 29 SCARBOROUGH ME 2:17:05 24.5
10 1229 ALEX MROSZCZYK-MCDONALD M 25 BURLINGTON VT 2:17:24 24.5

18 riders were over 40kph for the 56 miles.

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=coylifut]given 3/4s of the cat 3 field can do a sub 1 hour 40k tt, the results below don't surprise me at all. What really blows me away is how fast those guys can run a 1/2 marathon after doing it.
QUOTE]

well what do

you think then
after 360 km a 84 km marathon?


1/2 marathon make just my toes warm(just kidding)

[ada@prorider.or]

and a strong wind. .
the stronger the wind the more important the aerodynamics!

[coylifut]

[QUOTE=coylifut]given 3/4s of the cat 3 field can do a sub 1 hour 40k tt, the results below don't surprise me at all. What really blows me away is how fast those guys can run a 1/2 marathon after doing it.
QUOTE]

well what do

you think then
after 360 km a 84 km marathon?


1/2 marathon make just my toes warm(just kidding)

1/2 marathon make me want to cutt my toes off (no kidding)

[gt6267a]

I think this is what you are looking for:

http://www.damonrinard.com/aero/formulas.htm

At over 30 km/h the wind resistance becomes significant.
Personally, i've always considered 40 km/h as the point at
which the fashion police won't pull you over if you're pimped-out
in full aero gear. If you can't do 40 for an hour, spend time
on the bike instead of money on gear.

g

G

This is fantastic. About half way down on a page he links to, http://www.damonrinard.com/aero/aerodynamics.htm, the table is great.

What is the Gold Rush position?

Thanks and regards,
K

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=gt6267agreat.

What is the Gold Rush position?


K[/QUOTE]
what we call human powered vehicle position
a very low lying postion the bike called cold rusch



If one does not consider the regulations which limit the application of technology, efficient structures are possible. The speed record for bicycles over a distance of 200 m with flying start is a good 105 km/h (May 1986 at 2400 m altitude). The world hour record is at present 73 km/h (September 1989). Both records are held by the vehicle "Gold Rush", built by Gardner Martin, with Fred Markham ("Fast Freddy") as rider. Gold Rush has very good aerodynamics: an effective frontal area of 0.046 m2 is indicated - a twelfth of a conventional racing bicycle; the vehicle weighs only 14.5 kg (19). Vehicles such as the Gold Rush are not suited to everyday life. Besides, other vehicles quite suited to everyday life have lower drag than racing machines which meet the regulations of the sport federations.

[Orin]

[QUOTE=ada@prorider.or]

1/2 marathon make me want to cutt my toes off (no kidding)

I always say my limit for running is 60 feet (the distance between bases on a Softball field ;) ).

Orin.