Cyclist Killed

[elcolombiano]

Cyclist killed in my own neighborhood. Does anyone know what happened?

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/bicyclist-hit-by-moving-truck-killed-rancho-palos-verdes-371463891.html

[KJMUNC]

ugh.....terrible. I've climbed Hawthorne many times but only felt comfortable descending it if it was early with no traffic. You can absolutely blast down that section and it sounds like that's what the rider was doing......awful news.

[ultraman6970]

You cant go downhill fast in streets with a lot of traffic, drivers cant see you.

[Peter P.]

If I understand. the truck was turning right. It sounds like the cyclist was to the right of the truck and probably traveling straight. The cyclist was likely trying to pass the truck on the right at a high rate of speed while truck was making a right hand turn.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[joe.e]

In a situation like this (no bike lane?), with the bike and the car traveling at similar speeds, who has the right of way?

[johnniecakes]

In a situation like this (no bike lane?), with the bike and the car traveling at similar speeds, who has the right of way?

Right of way doesn't really matter when a 175 lb person on a bike tangles with a ton or more of steel. When my son started riding I told him I would have "I had the right of way" on his tombstone

[joe.e]

Right of way doesn't really matter when a 175 lb person on a bike tangles with a ton or more of steel. When my son started riding I told him I would have "I had the right of way" on his tombstone

yea, I know. I'm still curious as to what the actual rule is though.

update: so, according to calbike.org, it looks like the cyclist should have taken the whole lane and act as a car, and peter p's hypothesis about an inside pass is the most likely outcome.

[MattTuck]

yea, I know. I'm still curious as to what the actual rule is though.

No idea what the laws are like in California, but in a lot of states bikes are considered vehicles. If a car were driving and tried to pass another car (that was legally turning right, from the right lane) on the right, it would be ridiculous to think it wasn't at fault if it hit the turning vehicle.

[cachagua]

I think right of way might matter a lot here. If something like Peter's description is what happened -- IF that's what happened --the right of way would belong to the vehicle in front (the truck), and it would have been the cyclist's responsibility to anticipate and deal with the truck's movements.

Also, to pass on the right is not legal anywhere I know about.

[ultraman6970]

Pass at the right at speeds over 15 mph using a bicycle is just wrong. If the guy was coming fast, fast like over 45 km/h downhill there is a big chance the truck did not see him, specially if the street has a lot of traffic (and my wife wonder why i like team jerseys from the 80s), the other option is that this dude took the wrong decision... you never know what he was trying to do a fraction of a second before the accident, well another car was waiting in front of him and he thought he was going to be able to pass at the inside line?

Lesson for everybody, never assume the car saw you, never think the driver is going to let you pass, but at the same time you have to be assertive and sure of what are you doing 100%, that will keep you alive specially because for some reason the drivers sense that and will let you be.

[bikinchris]

Speed positioning rule:
When traveling at or near the speed of auto traffic, take the lane. Ride near the center of the lane to reduce the chance of being passed and getting a right hook.
When travelling a little slower, stay at the right wheel track of the lane, especially at intersections and especially a Y intersection.
When travelling a lot slower than other traffic, ride farther right but not so far right as to place yourself in danger of going off the road. Still be aware of the right hook at intersections.

[Mzilliox]

this is very sad and unfortunate. ride safely folks, its a tough world out there.

[cachagua]

You have to be assertive and sure of what are you doing 100%, that will keep you alive specially because for some reason the drivers sense that and will let you be.

This is true. There is definitely a form of "body language" in traffic, not so different from the way people communicate their intentions walking along a crowded sidewalk. Good drivers do this in their cars, and good cyclists do it on their bikes: make it clear what space you intend to occupy, behave consistently and predictably, and you make it easy for other vehicles to give you the space you want.

Of course this is no use against a sociopath, but the great secret is there are astonishingly few sociopaths.

[fuzzalow]

but at the same time you have to be assertive and sure of what are you doing 100%, that will keep you alive specially because for some reason the drivers sense that and will let you be.

This is true. There is definitely a form of "body language" in traffic, not so different from the way people communicate their intentions walking along a crowded sidewalk. Good drivers do this in their cars, and good cyclists do it on their bikes: make it clear what space you intend to occupy, behave consistently and predictably, and you make it easy for other vehicles to give you the space you want.

No. I do not agree with this and it is a faulty and possible fatal line of reasoning. It is terrible advice. I do not say this directed as a personal remark but it is stupid advice that became fact because it was repeated enough times on the web. This advice is the listener being D-K'd (Dunning-Kruger). Do not do this.

Do not do what is quoted above because you think there is some kind of communication and cooperation going on between bicyclist and motorist, in real time, in a dynamic traffic situation, while everything else is concurrently going on in and during the entire time, in seconds, of everything in a traffic situation.

It is fatal and stupid to trust your life to a possible miscommunication. The mere exchange of looks, glances and nod-is-as-good-as-a-wink will cost you time, creates indecision and can get you killed.

Respond and act decisively only by what you see in deciding and controlling your own actions. The only things that count and matter to you are movement, direction, time and intercept. React accordingly and only to that in maintaining your seperation and safety zone.

[merlinmurph]

I gotta go with fuzz on this. Basically, assume nothing. Yes, it's great that the driver sees you and all, but don't assume that the driver is going to behave logically after that.

Again, assume nothing.

[oldpotatoe]

I gotta go with fuzz on this. Basically, assume nothing. Yes, it's great that the driver sees you and all, but don't assume that the driver is going to behave logically after that.

Again, assume nothing.

Agree. I always assume a car at an intersection, ahead of me, is going to right hook me. I also always assume the car on the other side, waiting to turn left, doesn't see me. If I am really unsure, I just stop.

The cyclist mentioned did have the right of way but wasn't riding defensively. He should have gotten behind the truck or slowed, waited till it turned, then pressed on, IMHO. Sad tho.

[downtube]

I put a few hundred thousand miles on a motorcycle, and found it is best to always believe you are invisible to motor vehicles. You need to take responsibility for watching them and making safe decisions. Do your best to be seen, lights front and rear, bright clothing and don't put yourself in high risk situations. Sometimes you just need to slow down. All that being said, I feel bad for this person and any rider who gets hurt or worse. Stay safe.

[Seramount]

...make it clear what space you intend to occupy, behave consistently and predictably...

this is my MO, seems to work pretty well.

head on a swivel, a lot of pointing to indicate intended movements, positioning to avoid being squeezed, and assuming the other guy is always going to do the worst thing at the worst time goes a long way towards keeping me safe.

[cachagua]

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher"...

If I hadn't been using this method successfully for upwards of forty years, maybe I could have been Dunning-Krugered by posts on the web. But I began to watch how I rode and lived to tell about it, many years back, and this is what I've observed.

And yet, this is at best only half of the truth. The other half, as several have already mentioned, is -- assume nothing!

In other words, communicate your ass off, but don't think that it guarantees you anything. Do everything you can to prevent problems, but anticipate them anyway.

[ivanooze]

Cyclist killed in my own neighborhood. Does anyone know what happened?

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/bicyclist-hit-by-moving-truck-killed-rancho-palos-verdes-371463891.html

his name is jon. he was part of my cycling team. It would be awesome if everyone in the south bay can show up to the FDR ride to honor him this saturday

[beeatnik]

ugh.....terrible. I've climbed Hawthorne many times but only felt comfortable descending it if it was early with no traffic. You can absolutely blast down that section and it sounds like that's what the rider was doing......awful news.

Ya, I've ridden northbound (descending) on Hawthorne twice. The first was on a night group ride where I forgot my helmet. The guys in front where bombing the descent at 50-55mph. I played it safe and and slow at 30mph (ya, I know). In any case, there wasn't a car on the road (very wide 6 lane urban highway) and the road surface was very smooth but I was terrified. I don't think I've ever felt more g-forces on a long stretch of urban road. About a quarter mile from the bottom, I had slowed to 20mph.

Next time I descended Hawthorne, I was in a hurry to get home. My average was above 45mph. As I was coming down the hill and being passed by some cars at 70mph, while passing slower moving cars in sections (at 50mph), I moved into the center lane just a little right of center. That may have been the first time I ever took a full lane at a high speed on an urban road.

Thoughts and prayers to the cyclist's family.


https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2016/03/10/in-our-backyard/

[fuzzalow]

I was unequivocal in how I responded to what ultraman6970 and you had chimed in on because it was a muddled post given as advice. Which I understood to be lousy half-baked advice on a very serious topic that is deserving of nothing less than a serious response.

Lesson for everybody, never assume the car saw you, never think the driver is going to let you pass, but at the same time you have to be assertive and sure of what are you doing 100%, that will keep you alive specially because for some reason the drivers sense that and will let you be.

What the hell is that all about? You have no call to giving this as a lesson in safety to anybody. The dig I took at being D-K'ed was aimed at this absurdity.

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher"...

If I hadn't been using this method successfully for upwards of forty years, maybe I could have been Dunning-Krugered by posts on the web. But I began to watch how I rode and lived to tell about it, many years back, and this is what I've observed.

And yet, this is at best only half of the truth. The other half, as several have already mentioned, is -- assume nothing!

In other words, communicate your ass off, but don't think that it guarantees you anything. Do everything you can to prevent problems, but anticipate them anyway.

Sure, you fill in what you didn't say before here in reply to what I posted but what good is trying to give advice when you do more harm than good in presenting it in the half-baked form that you originally did?

My response is not personal at you. This is a very serious topic. Life and death serious. Anything that makes light or diminishes the gravity of how critical our skills and behaviour out in open traffic is a disservice to any reader of this thread and of this forum.

Besides which IMO trading non-verbal communication between a motorist and bicyclist is a fatal mistake and assumption of which I explained why in my post. If you disagree, I'd be happy to discuss the merits of your view in opposition to mine.

Peace cachagua, we are really on the same side here even if the words we trade are unvarnished.

We need only be reminded by the death of this rider who, by most evidence, made a mistake. But when the penalty is death, we as riders cannot approach any mistake as just a simple mistake.

Back to safety: Anyone who has taken a Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) course is taught a fundamental method which I repeat for you here: S.I.P.D.E. . I was taught this long ago and I'm sure you can get more details on the web.


S - Scan
I - Identify
P - Predict
D - Decide
E - Execute

Let's all be careful out there.

[ultraman6970]

Love you too :D

[beeatnik]

Ultra, fuzz isn't aware that you're from sudamerica, land of no traffic laws

[ultraman6970]

Well, the yoda style accent is heavy noticeable tho :D But either way, every advice is based in experience, maybe I been lucky? but I grew in a 6 million (10 million now) people city :) you have to read drivers in advance, your judgement and common sense has to be quick and you have to handle your bike or you will die, as simple as that.

So you have to weight your attitude and skills in the street as a rider, if you ride with fear drivers notice that and usually the fear is translated in poor handling, judgement situations skills, and those are the 1st guys to get ran over because are doing dumb things, lack of judgement. Not weighting the possibility of a driver that is an idiot here ok?

Sold a set of wheels locally like 4 months ago maybe... we went for a ride with the dude, at the 1st light the old dude was doing weird stuff, dude like 40 years riding and still riding with no confidence and with a giant lack of common sense.

In the case of this dude that died, well... sad what happened but from the little I understood from the article the dude might have been at fault too, add a moment of bad fortune and those are the results, you can control your fortune up to some level, thats all.

[fuzzalow]

Gentlemen, there's nothing personal here. You stand on the validity and weight of what you bring to the discussion. Make yourself out to be an expert if you like. Puff out your chest all you want on that. Just be prepared to back it up that you really know what you are talking about.

My goodness me, spout goofy advice that somebody might look up to and follow and possibly face consequences of how bad that advice is. Sorry, I don't do that and I'll always voice against certain types of goofy advice. Bad advice on wheels, saddle, bike clothes - all fun 'n' games and I don't care. But bad advice that might get somebody hurt or killed, I can't let that pass in good conscience.

Love you too :D

That's swell. This isn't between you and me. It is about the subject at hand. Man's got to know his limitations.

Ultra, fuzz isn't aware that you're from sudamerica, land of no traffic laws

Wonderful. Anecdotal proof of ultraman6970's me-myself-and-I stayin' alive in a crowded city with no traffic laws. Which doesn't mean he knows ding about how to tell anyone else how to do the same. But in fairness, maybe he does know how. I just haven't heard it from him yet.

[Big Dan]

Gentlemen, there's nothing personal here. You stand on the validity and weight of what you bring to the discussion. Make yourself out to be an expert if you like. Puff out your chest all you want on that. Just be prepared to back it up that you really know what you are talking about.

My goodness me, spout goofy advice that somebody might look up to and follow and possibly face consequences of how bad that advice is. Sorry, I don't do that and I'll always voice against certain types of goofy advice. Bad advice on wheels, saddle, bike clothes - all fun 'n' games and I don't care. But bad advice that might get somebody hurt or killed, I can't let that pass in good conscience.



That's swell. This isn't between you and me. It is about the subject at hand. Man's got to know his limitations.



Wonderful. Anecdotal proof of ultraman6970's me-myself-and-I stayin' alive in a crowded city with no traffic laws. Which doesn't mean he knows ding about how to tell anyone else how to do the same. But in fairness, maybe he does know how. I just haven't heard it from him yet.


Wow, you have issues dude.

[unterhausen]

most truckers aren't driving a truck because they are misunderstood rocket surgeons. If a vehicle pulls up next to me and starts to slow down, it's a sure sign that I should slam on the brakes and get ready for emergency maneuvers. But fortunately, I have never been in the situation that this cyclist was in, it's quite possible he had no options.

I think it's too bad we can't have a thread like this without trying to reassure ourselves that it isn't going to happen to us. It might.

[soulspinner]

we start a thread about a death and we succumb to.......prayers to the family no matter who is at fault.

[merlinmurph]

his name is jon. he was part of my cycling team. It would be awesome if everyone in the south bay can show up to the FDR ride to honor him this saturday

I'm sorry about your friend and teammate.

Murph

[classtimesailer]

I'v done that descent a bunch of times and never have I been at that intersection when a vehicle was taking a right. I fear a car not seeing me and cutting me off as they come in from the side street. The more dangerous, IMO, intersection is further back up the hill. Sad.

[rugbysecondrow]

Sorry about your friend and teammate.

his name is jon. he was part of my cycling team. It would be awesome if everyone in the south bay can show up to the FDR ride to honor him this saturday


Fuzz, you are going overboard a bit my man. I think people can grasp the gravity of what you offer without the attitude.

Cheers to a great weekend!

Gentlemen, there's nothing personal here. You stand on the validity and weight of what you bring to the discussion. Make yourself out to be an expert if you like. Puff out your chest all you want on that. Just be prepared to back it up that you really know what you are talking about.

My goodness me, spout goofy advice that somebody might look up to and follow and possibly face consequences of how bad that advice is. Sorry, I don't do that and I'll always voice against certain types of goofy advice. Bad advice on wheels, saddle, bike clothes - all fun 'n' games and I don't care. But bad advice that might get somebody hurt or killed, I can't let that pass in good conscience.

That's swell. This isn't between you and me. It is about the subject at hand. Man's got to know his limitations.

Wonderful. Anecdotal proof of ultraman6970's me-myself-and-I stayin' alive in a crowded city with no traffic laws. Which doesn't mean he knows ding about how to tell anyone else how to do the same. But in fairness, maybe he does know how. I just haven't heard it from him yet.

[fuzzalow]

Fuzz, you are going overboard a bit my man. I think people can grasp the gravity of what you offer without the attitude.

Well rugbysecondrow, it's OK if you think that. I put content out there and people are entitled to respond as they like. I'm not gonna sit on my hands and do nuthin'. In my own defense and in fairness to me, when I post this stuff the only thing I want is for all of youse to stay alive.

I'm of the belief that I can't go too far wrong if I approach things with this guy's wisdom & advice:
"Intensity is the price of excellence." - Warren Buffett

[54ny77]

so sad to hear. concolences to family, friends, teammates.

hawthorne in pv is (or can be) a crazy fast descent.

terrible news all around.

[elcolombiano]

Maybe we should not be going 50 mph down Hawthorne blvd. Maybe we need to slow down to have more of a chance to maneuver in the event of an emergency. There is a reason a speed limit is posted.