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oldpotatoe
03-07-2016, 07:46 AM
From Cycling tips...shimano on road disc's future(yes they are a-coming) and sram..why I don't like sram..IMHO-big IMHO..

http://cyclingtips.com/2013/10/disc-brakes-and-road-bikes-what-does-the-future-hold

arrogance with a capital 'A'..

sram-
"People who criticize disc brakes have not ridden them. For those people who want to stand by ‘tradition’, I say that there’s lots of things that are ‘traditional’ in road cycling. Taking drugs is ‘tradition’, but you know what? That has to change as well."

shimano-
"Shimano doesn’t see this as just a fad and I think that there’s a spot in the market for a completely different category of bikes using disc brakes. [But] I can’t see caliper brakes vanishing and becoming obsolete."

out-take it leave it...just irks me.

Disc related article from Bike Radar

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/sram-vs-shimano-hydraulic-brake-pads-in-wet-grit-video-44489

chiasticon
03-07-2016, 08:26 AM
also from Sram rep: I see all bikes evolving to disc brakes. ... I think the change to road disc brakes will be swifter and more strategic than it was to mountain bikes. The reason I think that is because carbon rims (full carbon clinchers) are such a safety issue with all these newcomers not knowing how to brake. Essentially it’s become a safety issue to run a rim brake on a carbon braking surface. The braking power is not good enough.

Sram has a major dog in the fight for discs: Zipp. so of course they'd love it if every bike went that way. no more research into better braking surfaces nor fear of people exploding the things and crashing.

that said, I totally agree that it's an a-hole viewpoint. and I find it hilarious that a company that owns the biggest wheel name in the biz will say that braking power simply isn't good enough and that it's a safety issue. so...why'd you sell the wheels then? and you're admitting you sold hazardous stuff? interesting...

livingminimal
03-07-2016, 08:31 AM
Been spending a lot of time off of discs and on calipers again and its reenforcing to me that, yes, I think hydro disc brakes feel and brake better and more predictably blah blah blah, but my dura ace caliper brakes really do provide all the stopping power I need in 99.9999999999% of the situations.
It's that .0000000001 I worry about.


In any event, for Shimano's "we don't expect them to go away" bit...two words...v-brakes, mountain bikes.

shovelhd
03-07-2016, 08:33 AM
Is that a two year old article?

tigoat
03-07-2016, 08:39 AM
Oh no the old man is at it again:D. Let’s see how many pages will we have this time for this thread?

Regardless of what pros will use, manufacturers are flooding the market with both low and high end road bikes with disc brakes. I was kind of coaching a couple of new riders for our club and was surprised to see their newly bought lower end road bikes with disc brakes. I think it is irreverent what pros will use for the adaptation of disc brakes on road bikes for the mass market.

PaMtbRider
03-07-2016, 08:42 AM
Is that a two year old article?

Yes.

oldpotatoe
03-07-2016, 08:43 AM
Oh no the old man is at it again:D. Let’s see how many pages will we have this time for this thread?

Regardless of what pros will use, manufacturers are flooding the market with both low and high end road bikes with disc brakes. I was kind of coaching a couple of new riders for our club and was surprised to see their newly bought lower end road bikes with disc brakes. I think it is irreverent what pros will use for the adaptation of disc brakes on road bikes for the mass market.

Road discs are coming or are here. That is undeniable.

Not...my...point....remove all reference to disc brakes..my point remains..

out

sparky33
03-07-2016, 09:01 AM
Oh no the old man is at it again:D. Let’s see how many pages will we have this time for this thread?

yes.
It has been at least a few days since we've heard that SRAM is terrible stuff, no?

seanile
03-07-2016, 09:14 AM
i got way too far into this thread before i realized nobody was talking about these.
then i thought maybe the issue was integrating disc rotors onto disc wheels.
then i was wrong again. http://www.bikyle.com/images/Zipp/ZippDiscTub.jpg

gospastic
03-07-2016, 10:20 AM
Guy spends so much time letting people know how much he dislikes something...:help:

Birddog
03-07-2016, 10:41 AM
Guy spends so much time letting people know how much he dislikes something...:help:
Yeah, never mind that he makes a ton of posts telling folks how to fix stuff or workaround problems!

oldpotatoe
03-07-2016, 11:02 AM
Guy spends so much time letting people know how much he dislikes something...:help:

My time, read or don't, see below for the proper German of, 'makes no difference to moi'.... :D

David Tollefson
03-07-2016, 11:05 AM
max nix.

Ugh....

It's "Es macht nichts." Butchery of the German language...

Fatty
03-07-2016, 11:35 AM
Retro style ride yesterday. Did not die of embarrassment or lack of braking power.

FlashUNC
03-07-2016, 11:38 AM
Retro style ride yesterday. Did not die of embarrassment or lack of braking power.

With your lack of ability to transfer power via those platform pedals, I'm not surprised.

oldpotatoe
03-07-2016, 11:38 AM
Ugh....

It's "Es macht nichts." Butchery of the German language...

Sorry, from my early childhood when we lived in Germany(USAF)..like 60 years ago.

54ny77
03-07-2016, 12:05 PM
i was in so cal recently and saw lots & lots & lots of guys on carbon disc-equipped road bikes. while some grumble here online, many are out there buying & riding it in--get ready for it--reality. maybe they're just a new toy to some. who knows, and who cares. companies need to evolve and develop and create products. people can buy them, or not. besides, if you only have one or two bikes in the stable, if one is a disc, why not? i'd gladly give it a whirl if i was inclined.

unterhausen
03-07-2016, 12:09 PM
there was a lot more resistance to discs 2 years ago, so that's probably where Sram was coming from. Now most of us have given up. I don't really see the advantage for road, but in the future I'll have fewer bikes because I can swap wheels so easily. Probably not what the bike manufacturers wanted to hear

Jad
03-07-2016, 12:15 PM
i got way too far into this thread before i realized nobody was talking about these.
then i thought maybe the issue was integrating disc rotors onto disc wheels.
then i was wrong again. http://www.bikyle.com/images/Zipp/ZippDiscTub.jpg

Love it. "I see all road wheels evolving to disc wheels...I think the change to road disc wheels will be swifter and more strategic than it was with mountain bikes."

biker72
03-07-2016, 02:07 PM
Lots of disc brake equipped road bikes sold where I work. The Shimano brake version seems to be selling a little better.

Mark McM
03-07-2016, 02:53 PM
Love it. "I see all road wheels evolving to disc wheels...I think the change to road disc wheels will be swifter and more strategic than it was with mountain bikes."

I don't know why anyone would think this. There are very clear advantage to disc brakes on MTBs in many situations, not just for riding, but also for design and construction (especially for bikes with suspension). The argument for disc brakes on road bikes is far less compelling.

This is similar to tubeless tires, where there are strong arguments for their adoption on MTBs, but not so strong arguments for road bikes.

FlashUNC
03-07-2016, 03:03 PM
Lord knows Hutchinson has been trying to make road tubeless happen for years now.

Ti Designs
03-07-2016, 03:18 PM
I don't know why anyone would think this. There are very clear advantage to disc brakes on MTBs in many situations, not just for riding, but also for design and construction (especially for bikes with suspension). The argument for disc brakes on road bikes is far less compelling.

In many cases it's an argument against. Suspension forks on mountain bikes are designed to be rigid, using the travel of the suspension, not the flex in the fork. It's a good application for a brake that sits on only one side. The good ones already have a large thru-axle. With road bikes you're asking the flex in the fork to add compliance for road surface, adding a brake on just one side throws that off.

I recently tried the Specialized Tarmac Pro Disc. I took it up and over Belmont hill, coming down Concord ave into the center - it's a decreasing radius downhill right turn to a stop light. I ride a 2014 S-Works Tarmac, I have no problem handling that turn on my own bike, but on the disc brake version there were issues. It's not simply a switch to disc brakes, it's a modification of the rest of the bike. Then the question is if it's worth it. Given the braking concerns with carbon wheels, and since everyone NEEDS carbon wheels, I'm sure the answer to that question is yes...

crankles
03-07-2016, 03:25 PM
I like Sram. I like Shimano. I like disc (well, hydro anyway).

On the rainy descents this past weekend, I was glad to be on my Disc CX.
For me, Disc vs Caliper is akin to disc vs drum brakes on some older Honda CB's I use to own. Never crashed one with drums, but I was careful never to push 'em to where it was a possibility ;-)

berserk87
03-07-2016, 03:42 PM
I don't mind disc wheels on a road bike in theory. In practice, what I don't like is the idea that it makes my hoard of wheels with rim brakes inch toward being obsolete. My nightmare would be that Shimano would go to 100% disc brakes on their high end groups - but it is implied that they will not do this - who knows?

I don't like that the manufacturers seem to have foisted the demand on the market, instead of the market clamoring for disc brakes. Folks get paid to innovate at these companies. I guess they have to justify their jobs.

pdmtong
03-07-2016, 04:21 PM
From Cycling tips...shimano on road disc's future(yes they are a-coming) and sram..why I don't like sram..IMHO-big IMHO..

http://cyclingtips.com/2013/10/disc-brakes-and-road-bikes-what-does-the-future-hold

I'm not understanding why you posted what looks to be a two year old article...

ofcounsel
03-07-2016, 04:48 PM
I'm not understanding why you posted what looks to be a two year old article...

Because he likes all his things retro. Even internet news articles.

crankles
03-07-2016, 05:11 PM
Because he likes all his things retro. Even internet news articles.

Winner!

bfd
03-07-2016, 05:19 PM
Love it. "I see all road wheels evolving to disc wheels...I think the change to road disc wheels will be swifter and more strategic than it was with mountain bikes."

All road wheels evolving to disc wheels?! Yeah right, try riding disc wheels across the Golden Gate Bridge on a moderately windy day.....Good Luck!

p nut
03-07-2016, 06:04 PM
Meh, SRAM, Shimano, etc. will sell what is selling. Discs are the thing right now, so they're milking that cow for all its worth.

They're a business, only loyal to their shareholders. Performance, and everything else comes second.

seanile
03-07-2016, 06:26 PM
All road wheels evolving to disc wheels?! Yeah right, try riding disc wheels across the Golden Gate Bridge on a moderately windy day.....Good Luck!

so i wasnt the only one after all

dustyrider
03-07-2016, 06:34 PM
It's already been two years...where is boost? The "improvements" and "choices" are so wonderful!

jc031699
03-07-2016, 07:49 PM
I agree with OP. There have been many innovations, but a lot of the old, simple ways persist. Hey, look centerpull brakes are even back in the guise of aero frame hidden brakes. V-brakes live on with non-disc gravel bikes. Clinchers didn't replace tubulars. Carbon didn't replace aluminum, and aluminum didn't replace steel. It's a big wide world out there. As for the SRAM quotes, that may not be arrogance, but it sure is marketing-speak and wishful drivel that is more spin-oriented than reality-based.

Correction- The Shimano rep says he is not speaking for his company. The SRAM rep quite clearly is.

Tony
03-07-2016, 08:12 PM
Innovation in MTBing is moving faster than road bikes, has been for a while. Things learned there will be looked at closely for road. I think we will see a lot of trickled down technology from MTB to road in the future like disk brakes. We all play a role in this, the introduction of new standards. It's the progression of riders abilities that drive innovation. Disk brakes has allowed us to ride faster, safer and with more confidence. It also revealed limitations with calipers and their relationship with carbon rims. Disk brakes has freed the restrictions that wheel manufactures have had in the past due to brake calipers systems.
I don't think companies are creating standards to problems that don't exist. Bikes are not perfect the way they are, always room for improvement and refinement. There will always be tweaking and chasing perfection, which is never ending.

oldpotatoe
03-08-2016, 07:03 AM
I'm not understanding why you posted what looks to be a two year old article...

First, this isn't about disc brakes but sram's arrogant attitude towards many things 'bike'. This isn't the first time I have seen or been confronted personally by the 'get out of my way', 'my way or the highway', attitude by sram. I have dealt with manufacturers, either reps or the actual owners, many times. shimano, Campag, various frame and component makers, many. But have gotten the, 'you aren't onboard with sram yet?, what is WRONG with you?', attitude consistently from sram. It's like they have a chip on their shoulder, that 'attitude' starts at the top, no doubt(big/taco ed).

As for the article, I was just wandering around CyclingTips and BikeRadar and it was featured somewhere on the page. 2 years old or not, the quote was still said, couldn't be 'unsaid'.


BUT, Not about discs brakes, they are here, for good or ill. Use 'em ya like 'em, groovy...

Burnette
03-08-2016, 08:27 AM
Old “P”, from the many threads you start and participate in, it’s clear that you are a Campy man. But you are so much so as to make your strong opinions overly biased against other brands to the point that you have no middle ground. There is no reasoning with someone who just hates broccoli that there is some good in them, no matter how much you try.

You don’t like SRAM and believe Shimano inferior, we got it. But why in the world would you waste your time following these brands and feeling like you have been disrespected by them for their business practices? It’s like if I didn’t like Ford and I dug out an old article and held it high and said, “See? They’re jerks!”.

If SRAM is running their business in an inappropriate manner, the market will correct it. If they are not, then they will be fine. Campy has certainly pissed plenty of people off in the US for their lack of attention and archaic business model here. There have been plenty of threads about negative phone and email communications in dealings with Campy people that I wonder how you could overlook that? It goes back to your overly biased outlook.

And for someone like yourself in “the business”, I cannot for the life of me understand why you don’t get what SRAM is trying to do. Make no mistake, they are in the fight of their life against a giant (Shimano) and a small, historical and entrenched presence (Campy). They have to move quickly, quicker than the giant for sure. That’s why they are pushing for their products to become some kind of standard over the other two. It’s survival. I would do no different if I was at SRAM. And give them credit for actually making Shimano come to market sooner with products than they would have if SRAM wasn’t there.

And as far as the “attitude”, you are falling for the marketing. I’m going to sin to some and say that it’s the same kind crap that Rapha does that so many eat up. As much as you hate it, some people love it. An American company that makes products they like and has the balls to walk into the arena and stake their place.

I have no dog in the fight. I would buy from any of the three. I love none of them, hold no loyalty to any of them and see them for what they are. Bicycle component companies. That’s all they are. Passion be damned, it’s the market that will sort out the wheat from the chaff. And SRAM knows that. And they know that they had better come out swinging.

oldpotatoe
03-08-2016, 08:37 AM
Old “P”, from the many threads you start and participate in, it’s clear that you are a Campy man. But you are so much so as to make your strong opinions overly biased against other brands to the point that you have no middle ground. There is no reasoning with someone who just hates broccoli that there is some good in them, no matter how much you try.

You don’t like SRAM and believe Shimano inferior, we got it. But why in the world would you waste your time following these brands and feeling like you have been disrespected by them for their business practices? It’s like if I didn’t like Ford and I dug out an old article and held it high and said, “See? They’re jerks!”.

If SRAM is running their business in an inappropriate manner, the market will correct it. If they are not, then they will be fine. Campy has certainly pissed plenty of people off in the US for their lack of attention and archaic business model here. There have been plenty of threads about negative phone and email communications in dealings with Campy people that I wonder how you could overlook that? It goes back to your overly biased outlook.

And for someone like yourself in “the business”, I cannot for the life of me understand why you don’t get what SRAM is trying to do. Make no mistake, they are in the fight of their life against a giant (Shimano) and a small, historical and entrenched presence (Campy). They have to move quickly, quicker than the giant for sure. That’s why they are pushing for their products to become some kind of standard over the other two. It’s survival. I would do no different if I was at SRAM. And give them credit for actually making Shimano come t market sooner with products than they would have if SRAM wasn’t there.

And as far as the “attitude”, you are falling for the marketing. I’m going to sin to some and say that it’s the same kind crap that Rapha does that so many eat up. As much as you hate it, some people love it. An American company that makes products they like and has the balls to walk into the arena and stake their place.

I have no dog in the fight. I would buy from any of the three. I love none of them, hold no loyalty to any of them and see them for what they are. Bicycle component companies. That’s all they are. Passion be damned, it’s the market that will sort out the wheat from the chaff. And SRAM knows that. And they know that they had better come out swinging.

Not in my experience. shimano and Campag on the phone have been great.

I understand, they just don't have to be so rude.

But it was a personal phone call to me that started this whole gig.

Like I said, I have dealt with many reps, owners, etc from the bike biz and IMHO, you don't have to 'swing' to see who you hit, smile and swing some more.

Early on when I was just starting in this forum, somebody took me to task for being such a Campagnolo fan boy...oh well, and guilty as charged..

But it is what it is, for me. I'm really unhappy with my lying thief of a business partner too, and that happened 6 years ago.

BTW-I have no beef with shimano. If Campag didn't exist tomorrow, I would put it on my bike no problem. if it were sram-I'd walk. I like broccoli also.

Discussion group, somethings just don't make sense. my dislike of sram 'may' be one of them to some..oh well...I'm a civilian now, not in the 'biz..

thirdgenbird
03-08-2016, 08:53 AM
In my opinion, the most shocking/troubling statement made by SRAM was during the whole road hydraulic debacle. They publicly admitted they did not use an environmental chamber to test their products and solely relied on field testing. This is baffling to me. Field testing is important to set a benchmark, keep things realistic, and gives you user feedback but it isn't enough. A part that has two years of field testing has exactly that and only in conditions allowed at that paticular time. An environmental chamber lets you test extremes and accelerate the process. In that same two year timeframe, you could potentially test decades of use in far more conditions. The failure of their road hydro system changed their stance on the issue, but it leaves me wondering what other corners they cut.

FlashUNC
03-08-2016, 09:11 AM
In my opinion, the most shocking/troubling statement made by SRAM was during the whole road hydraulic debacle. They publicly admitted they did not use an environmental chamber to test their products and solely relied on field testing. This is baffling to me. Field testing is important to set a benchmark, keep things realistic, and gives you user feedback but it isn't enough. A part that has two years of field testing has exactly that and only in conditions allowed at that paticular time. An environmental chamber lets you test extremes and accelerate the process. In that same two year timeframe, you could potentially test decades of use in far more conditions. The failure of their road hydro system changed their stance on the issue, but it leaves me wondering what other corners they cut.

SRAM uses their customers as their beta testers. You're just paying them for the privilege.

jr59
03-08-2016, 09:15 AM
Ride what you like. Makes no difference to anybody but you.

For myself, I'll stand by what I have said many times.

There is a place for sram. On someone's else Bike!

livingminimal
03-08-2016, 09:24 AM
In my opinion, the most shocking/troubling statement made by SRAM was during the whole road hydraulic debacle. They publicly admitted they did not use an environmental chamber to test their products and solely relied on field testing. This is baffling to me. Field testing is important to set a benchmark, keep things realistic, and gives you user feedback but it isn't enough. A part that has two years of field testing has exactly that and only in conditions allowed at that paticular time. An environmental chamber lets you test extremes and accelerate the process. In that same two year timeframe, you could potentially test decades of use in far more conditions. The failure of their road hydro system changed their stance on the issue, but it leaves me wondering what other corners they cut.

This summarizes where Im at with SRAM as well. It isn't personal for me. If anything, as a Chicago based company, I'd really love to support SRAM more. I like the way the hoods feel and I think the shifting mechanism is neat. I am excited that they're going to spur a wireless arms race, but this kind of has put me over the top.

El Chaba
03-08-2016, 09:34 AM
One of the few advantages of having been around the sport for a while is having some history. I remember SRAM's beginning and what I remember them for is the Gripshift. This was before STI or Ergopower, but I can't give any answer as to how this product was any better than bar end shifters. They were cheap and plasticy, but they eventually found a niche with triathletes to mount on the ends of their tribars. They also found a niche on mountain bikes. Over in Europe, Sachs was making some pretty underrated mountain bike groups that had grip twist shifters similar to the SRAM offering.....except they were far more durable and worked much better. At some point the huge Sachs corporation or their owner Mannesmann wanted out of the bike business and SRAM bought the division. One would think that they would have continued with the better product, but they just shut down the vast majority of it (keeping Sedis chains alive, but moving the factory to Portugal). Since then, my experience has been that they don't really make bike parts, but cheap Chinese copies of them. Clearly, some folks are happy with them.

bobswire
03-08-2016, 09:36 AM
i was in so cal recently and saw lots & lots & lots of guys on carbon disc-equipped road bikes. while some grumble here online, many are out there buying & riding it in--get ready for it--reality. maybe they're just a new toy to some. who knows, and who cares. companies need to evolve and develop and create products. people can buy them, or not. besides, if you only have one or two bikes in the stable, if one is a disc, why not? i'd gladly give it a whirl if i was inclined.

Yes, humans are a consumable species with hucksters selling us the newest and prettiest thingy would be fine if not for the fact we're consuming ourselves out of existence as the planet is unable to sustain nor clean up our garbage after our ravenous appetites.

bobswire
03-08-2016, 09:42 AM
i was in so cal recently and saw lots & lots & lots of guys on carbon disc-equipped road bikes. while some grumble here online, many are out there buying & riding it in--get ready for it--reality. maybe they're just a new toy to some. who knows, and who cares. companies need to evolve and develop and create products. people can buy them, or not. besides, if you only have one or two bikes in the stable, if one is a disc, why not? i'd gladly give it a whirl if i was inclined.

Re-edit, too political for this thread,sorry.

Burnette
03-08-2016, 09:55 AM
Be open minded to all possibilities and see all companies for what they are. For profit entities, that’s all they are. People have just hated Campy and their crap business practices in the US, like, forever. And their customer service too. Shimano has it’s bad actors as does SRAM as far as reps go.

I’ll go back to Ford. My family is adverse to Ford because my father worked at GM for thirty one years. Ford makes a cheap, fun little car that I inquired about at three dealers last year. All three dealers blow, they sucked to tenth power. I was an auto mechanic (hey, that’s Auto Tech to you, Ha!) for six years and know that all car brands have their issues. And even though Pop worked at GM, I’m not so passionate about the brand that I’m blind to their crap and I know that they too have some crappy dealership too.

As far as the SRAM reps go, if it really bothers you, call SRAM and give them a shot at handling the rep. I did that for Ford, respectfully gave them specifics and they followed up with me later to confirm my findings. SRAM wants to make money and they want to get better. If they don’t, they’ll pay for it.
But again, I think that your bias will always guide your mind and pull your hand towards the lever that says “reject”. And that’s a shame. I feel that instead of being a vehicle to move you along, your bias has become a closed door that holds back from truly participating. If I can write your response to an issue for you, that says you are entrenched and repetitive.

In the auto world, there are “fanboys” of brands, and their opinions are quickly discarded as clouded and not based on fact, more so on emotion and therefore not able to be reasoned with or to be included in serious discussion. Their responses are preprogrammed and trend negative. They are avoided.

I want to see the Old “P” that can discuss all sides of an issue. Even when it shows the bad side of company you like, or the good side of a company that you don’t. You’ve been around a long time and have seen a lot of things. Make them more accessible and relevant by being more open. In years and experience, you have way more value to yourself and to the forum than what can be contained in one brand.

54ny77
03-08-2016, 09:57 AM
^^^

i don't think of politics when i'm buying bike parts.

but yeah, i get what you're saying and don't disagree.

would be interesting to see a bike parts company advertising the metals portion of their stuff contain [x%] recycled aluminum. dunno if carbon fiber can be recycled and re-used?

chiasticon
03-08-2016, 10:03 AM
In my opinion, the most shocking/troubling statement made by SRAM was during the whole road hydraulic debacle. They publicly admitted they did not use an environmental chamber to test their products and solely relied on field testing. This is baffling to me. Field testing is important to set a benchmark, keep things realistic, and gives you user feedback but it isn't enough. A part that has two years of field testing has exactly that and only in conditions allowed at that paticular time. An environmental chamber lets you test extremes and accelerate the process. In that same two year timeframe, you could potentially test decades of use in far more conditions. The failure of their road hydro system changed their stance on the issue, but it leaves me wondering what other corners they cut.just curious... are bike parts generally tested in an environmental chamber? the hydro disc failure is the first part to my knowledge that only failed at extreme temps (temps very close to zero fahrenheit). not saying they didn't screw up but I'm just wondering what the precedent for such testing is.

also, I can't friggin' believe that people can't get over this hydro disc crap. there's a new sram hatred thread every week and it's brought up and fists are shaken in the direction of Chicago. and the majority of those enraged never even owned the damn things. I just don't get it.

bobswire
03-08-2016, 10:15 AM
^^^

i don't think of politics when i'm buying bike parts.

but yeah, i get what you're saying and don't disagree.

would be interesting to see a bike parts company advertising the metals portion of their stuff contain [x%] recycled aluminum. dunno if carbon fiber can be recycled and re-used?

That's why I deleted my response,just a knee jerk reaction to things in general.:beer:

54ny77
03-08-2016, 10:16 AM
the only thing i don't like about sram is the shifting at the top cog. if i'm grinding up a hill and click the shifter, thinking i've got the 28 hail mary gear to help me haul my fat ass upwards, when in fact i'm already in the 28, then poof....i get slammed into the 25 (or whatever it is). shimano has a lockout to prevent that kind of shifting.

does the newer generation of sram red prevent that? i have the 1st generation (circa '09 or so), for whatever that's worth. hated it as first because it was so finicky to adjust & stay in place (drivetrain), but it seems to be settling in now that i get more miles on it. using better aftermarket brake & derail cables vs. the oem stuff seems to make huge difference.

otherwise, sram red is light, it works, it's a tool like anything else. ford, dodge, or chevy trucks, they all do pretty much the same thing....

just curious... are bike parts generally tested in an environmental chamber? the hydro disc failure is the first part to my knowledge that only failed at extreme temps (temps very close to zero fahrenheit). not saying they didn't screw up but I'm just wondering what the precedent for such testing is.

also, I can't friggin' believe that people can't get over this hydro disc crap. there's a new sram hatred thread every week and it's brought up and fists are shaken in the direction of Chicago. and the majority of those enraged never even owned the damn things. I just don't get it.

thirdgenbird
03-08-2016, 10:17 AM
just curious... are bike parts generally tested in an environmental chamber? the hydro disc failure is the first part to my knowledge that only failed at extreme temps (temps very close to zero fahrenheit). not saying they didn't screw up but I'm just wondering what the precedent for such testing is.

also, I can't friggin' believe that people can't get over this hydro disc crap. there's a new sram hatred thread every week and it's brought up and fists are shaken in the direction of Chicago. and the majority of those enraged never even owned the damn things. I just don't get it.

At the same time SRAM made that statement, Campagnolo had YouTube videos bench testing eps in an environmental chamber.

It's not the failure that bothers me. Product failures happen. It's the fundamental negligence that lead to the failure. I don't take that lightly on a product that could seriously injure me. We are talking about engineering 101.

FlashUNC
03-08-2016, 10:24 AM
just curious... are bike parts generally tested in an environmental chamber? the hydro disc failure is the first part to my knowledge that only failed at extreme temps (temps very close to zero fahrenheit). not saying they didn't screw up but I'm just wondering what the precedent for such testing is.

also, I can't friggin' believe that people can't get over this hydro disc crap. there's a new sram hatred thread every week and it's brought up and fists are shaken in the direction of Chicago. and the majority of those enraged never even owned the damn things. I just don't get it.

The hydro discs were just latest in a long line of product problems for them. The Powerdome cassettes, the shifters, the FDs that were way too flimsy, the list goes on and on.

I applaud them for building a road group and becoming a third alternative in the market, but some tougher product testing wouldn't hurt.

Tony
03-08-2016, 10:31 AM
One of the few advantages of having been around the sport for a while is having some history. I remember SRAM's beginning and what I remember them for is the Gripshift. This was before STI or Ergopower, but I can't give any answer as to how this product was any better than bar end shifters. They were cheap and plasticy, but they eventually found a niche with triathletes to mount on the ends of their tribars. They also found a niche on mountain bikes. Over in Europe, Sachs was making some pretty underrated mountain bike groups that had grip twist shifters similar to the SRAM offering.....except they were far more durable and worked much better. At some point the huge Sachs corporation or their owner Mannesmann wanted out of the bike business and SRAM bought the division. One would think that they would have continued with the better product, but they just shut down the vast majority of it (keeping Sedis chains alive, but moving the factory to Portugal). Since then, my experience has been that they don't really make bike parts, but cheap Chinese copies of them. Clearly, some folks are happy with them.

What is your experience with Gripshift? After 18 years of abuse my Gripshift still works great? I read stuff like this and it makes me wonder if folks jump on the Sram bash wagon because its the thing to do.

Not long ago someone here called a product a POS without any direct experience with the product, just heard it somewhere. I also wonder if this is the case with some folks with Sram, heard it from someone who heard it from someone who...and now they speak as if they have experience with the item or product.

I understand OP dislike with Sram, accept it, makes more sense to me now. However, I'm willing to bet lots here just talk.

Bostic
03-08-2016, 10:38 AM
the only thing i don't like about sram is the shifting at the top cog. if i'm grinding up a hill and click the shifter, thinking i've got the 28 hail mary gear to help me haul my fat ass upwards, when in fact i'm already in the 28, then poof....i get slammed into the 25 (or whatever it is). shimano has a lockout to prevent that kind of shifting.


I found this video from Art's Cyclery helpful as I would do that as well. Usually near the end of a long ride where I'm worn out and thinking of a nice dinner.

Around 2:50 in he mentions the low limit screw adjustment to give a tiny bit of give.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Cu_jneQFw

pdmtong
03-08-2016, 11:32 AM
the only thing i don't like about sram is the shifting at the top cog. if i'm grinding up a hill and click the shifter, thinking i've got the 28 hail mary gear to help me haul my fat ass upwards, when in fact i'm already in the 28, then poof....i get slammed into the 25 (or whatever it is). shimano has a lockout to prevent that kind of shifting.

does the newer generation of sram red prevent that? i have the 1st generation (circa '09 or so), for whatever that's worth. hated it as first because it was so finicky to adjust & stay in place (drivetrain), but it seems to be settling in now that i get more miles on it. using better aftermarket brake & derail cables vs. the oem stuff seems to make huge difference.

otherwise, sram red is light, it works, it's a tool like anything else. ford, dodge, or chevy trucks, they all do pretty much the same thing....

That problem with my first gen force (silver paddle) went away with my 2010 force so presumably not an issue current

chiasticon
03-08-2016, 11:35 AM
the only thing i don't like about sram is the shifting at the top cog. if i'm grinding up a hill and click the shifter, thinking i've got the 28 hail mary gear to help me haul my fat ass upwards, when in fact i'm already in the 28, then poof....i get slammed into the 25 (or whatever it is). shimano has a lockout to prevent that kind of shifting.Sram allows for this. there's a sweet spot when you're adjusting the low limit on your RD where it's just a little past the point where it's running smoothly in the cog. give the lower limit screw like 1/4-1/2 of a turn more. you should be able to shift down again and hear a double click for this "dummy shift" where it doesn't actually shift up or down. it's like your RD going "nope."

The hydro discs were just latest in a long line of product problems for them. The Powerdome cassettes, the shifters, the FDs that were way too flimsy, the list goes on and on.

I applaud them for building a road group and becoming a third alternative in the market, but some tougher product testing wouldn't hurt.at what point do we say it's growing pains and move on with our lives instead of chastising them forever? it's not like Shimano has never had a recall. and as brought up in a thread last week (like I said, new Sram hatred thread every week around here), they've had plenty of issues as well.

54ny77
03-08-2016, 11:43 AM
chiasticon & bostic, thanks for that tip. never knew of it.

Jad
03-08-2016, 11:44 AM
it's like your RD going "nope."

I've had this awkward conversation a few times.

thirdgenbird
03-08-2016, 11:46 AM
at what point do we say it's growing pains and move on with our lives instead of chastising them forever? it's not like Shimano has never had a recall. and as brought up in a thread last week (like I said, new Sram hatred thread every week around here), they've had plenty of issues as well.

Shortly after they bought Sachs becoming one othe the largest manufacturers in the bicycle component industry. Again, it's not the recall, it's the negligence that lead to the recall.

bfd
03-08-2016, 11:52 AM
I'm a big Campy guy and only have it on my bikes. However, at the NAHBS show, Sram etap was in just about every booth. Didn't get to try it, but it sure looks great with no wires! Very clean.

Sram took a beating monetarily from the hydro disc mishap. Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes and etap will be their way back!

Now, get off my lawn as I go adjust my canti brakes....

bobswire
03-08-2016, 12:02 PM
I'm a big Campy guy and only have it on my bikes. However, at the NAHBS show, Sram etap was in just about every booth. Didn't get to try it, but it sure looks great with no wires! Very clean.

Sram took a beating monetarily from the hydro disc mishap. Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes and etap will be their way back!

Now, get off my lawn as I go adjust my canti brakes....

What part of San Francisco do you live that you can afford a lawn? :D

crankles
03-08-2016, 12:59 PM
What part of San Francisco do you live that you can afford a lawn? :D

lol...St Francis Wood Maybe?
I'm in St. Francis Hood!

FlashUNC
03-08-2016, 01:05 PM
at what point do we say it's growing pains and move on with our lives instead of chastising them forever? it's not like Shimano has never had a recall. and as brought up in a thread last week (like I said, new Sram hatred thread every week around here), they've had plenty of issues as well.

They've been making road -- and by extension cross -- groups since 2006. Its been a decade.

When does it stop being growing pains?

Neither Shimano or Campy are without flaw, but SRAM has had an inability to get basic stuff right for a long time. Mostly in a rush to get product to market or chase some standard like lightest road group out there.

I'm glad folks enjoy their stuff. Anything that gets folks riding is a positive. But I've seen enough issues where its either Shimano or Campy for me.

Red Tornado
03-08-2016, 01:15 PM
I believe many of you have misunderstood the intention of this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that OP's ire is directed at the perceived arrogant/brazen/audacious/etc. attitude of the person being interviewed - not specifically at the disc brakes. IMO, you could insert any new product that stirs up debate or strong feelings for/against it and this thread would have the same intent.

Not so much a for/against disc brake thread, that it seems to have turned into.

pdmtong
03-08-2016, 02:58 PM
I believe many of you have misunderstood the intention of this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that OP's ire is directed at the perceived arrogant/brazen/audacious/etc. attitude of the person being interviewed - not specifically at the disc brakes. IMO, you could insert any new product that stirs up debate or strong feelings for/against it and this thread would have the same intent.

Not so much a for/against disc brake thread, that it seems to have turned into.

The OPs disdain for SRAM and road discs is well known by regular readers of this forum and manifests itself in numerous threads on an ongoing basis.

choke
03-08-2016, 03:23 PM
At some point the huge Sachs corporation or their owner Mannesmann wanted out of the bike business and SRAM bought the division. One would think that they would have continued with the better product, but they just shut down the vast majority of it (keeping Sedis chains alive, but moving the factory to Portugal).I've never forgiven them for killing off the Aris freewheel shortly after taking over Sachs.

People have just hated Campy and their crap business practices in the US, like, forever. And their customer service too. This is the second time you've mentioned this but I really don't recall that coming up much (if any). Can you please point me to a relevant thread?

oldpotatoe
03-08-2016, 06:09 PM
Be open minded to all possibilities and see all companies for what they are. For profit entities, that’s all they are. People have just hated Campy and their crap business practices in the US, like, forever. And their customer service too. Shimano has it’s bad actors as does SRAM as far as reps go.

I’ll go back to Ford. My family is adverse to Ford because my father worked at GM for thirty one years. Ford makes a cheap, fun little car that I inquired about at three dealers last year. All three dealers blow, they sucked to tenth power. I was an auto mechanic (hey, that’s Auto Tech to you, Ha!) for six years and know that all car brands have their issues. And even though Pop worked at GM, I’m not so passionate about the brand that I’m blind to their crap and I know that they too have some crappy dealership too.

As far as the SRAM reps go, if it really bothers you, call SRAM and give them a shot at handling the rep. I did that for Ford, respectfully gave them specifics and they followed up with me later to confirm my findings. SRAM wants to make money and they want to get better. If they don’t, they’ll pay for it.
But again, I think that your bias will always guide your mind and pull your hand towards the lever that says “reject”. And that’s a shame. I feel that instead of being a vehicle to move you along, your bias has become a closed door that holds back from truly participating. If I can write your response to an issue for you, that says you are entrenched and repetitive.

In the auto world, there are “fanboys” of brands, and their opinions are quickly discarded as clouded and not based on fact, more so on emotion and therefore not able to be reasoned with or to be included in serious discussion. Their responses are preprogrammed and trend negative. They are avoided.

I want to see the Old “P” that can discuss all sides of an issue. Even when it shows the bad side of company you like, or the good side of a company that you don’t. You’ve been around a long time and have seen a lot of things. Make them more accessible and relevant by being more open. In years and experience, you have way more value to yourself and to the forum than what can be contained in one brand.

Big/taco Ed is more than a rep. He is The face of sram, USA. He is rude and overbearing and I don't wish him success. Out.

Red Tornado
03-08-2016, 09:16 PM
The OPs disdain for SRAM and road discs is well known by regular readers of this forum and manifests itself in numerous threads on an ongoing basis.

OK, fair enough. That may very well be the case with other threads. But I'm referring to THIS thread that seems more focused on the interviewee & his attitude than the product. However not surprised at OP's view for someone that supposedly doesn't like SRAM. Just seemed like this was moving into the rim vs. disc & SRAM vs. others arena instead of discussing the comments and the implied spirit of said comments.
Personally I didn't think much of the reference to doping from the SRAM person being quoted, either. No issues with the Shimano quote, tho.
For the record, Campy is on my road bikes & SRAM on the MTB.

SoCalSteve
03-08-2016, 09:54 PM
i was in so cal recently and saw lots & lots & lots of guys on carbon disc-equipped road bikes. while some grumble here online, many are out there buying & riding it in--get ready for it--reality. maybe they're just a new toy to some. who knows, and who cares. companies need to evolve and develop and create products. people can buy them, or not. besides, if you only have one or two bikes in the stable, if one is a disc, why not? i'd gladly give it a whirl if i was inclined.

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure why anyone in SoCal would need disc brakes on a road bike...we don't have much rain here ( again, maybe I am missing the " bigger picture ").

Please splain me'

ofcounsel
03-08-2016, 10:03 PM
Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure why anyone in SoCal would need disc brakes on a road bike...we don't have much rain here ( again, maybe I am missing the " bigger picture ").

Please splain me'

No one in SoCal "needs" discs. No one "needs" gears. No one "needs" carbon, or aluminum, or steel.

Yes. You are missing the big picture.

Black Dog
03-08-2016, 10:31 PM
No one in SoCal "needs" discs. No one "needs" gears. No one "needs" carbon, or aluminum, or steel.

Yes. You are missing the big picture.

Need or Want? Unless caliber brakes are suddenly no longer good enough for the task at hand then disks are not really a solution that anyone needs, even if they are better (which compared to callipers they are in many ways) they are not needed just wanted. For mountain bikes it really was a need given the demands of that type of riding. We always seem to forget that there is a "good enough" threshold beyond which we are getting ever diminishing returns.

ofcounsel
03-08-2016, 10:57 PM
Need or Want? Unless caliber brakes are suddenly no longer good enough for the task at hand then disks are not really a solution that anyone needs, even if they are better (which compared to callipers they are in many ways) they are not needed just wanted. For mountain bikes it really was a need given the demands of that type of riding. We always seem to forget that there is a "good enough" threshold beyond which we are getting ever diminishing returns.

The question above was "why anyone in SoCal would need disc brakes on a road bike?" Of course, no one anywhere "needs" them. No one "needed" discs for MTB either. Plenty of old school 80's folks bombed down hills with cantilevers.

But of course, you "want" them, however, and I for one would never seriously consider riding mtb without them. I also "wanted" discs for my road bike, and also would no longer consider buying a new road bike without them. Now that they're out, and they work... I see no reason for me having inferior tech.

54ny77
03-08-2016, 11:03 PM
i haven't the slightest idea.

it's the newest bag of popcorn on the shelf i guess.

there is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of folk out there who know nothing about anything other than what their bro's are saying is "cool" and at the moment, i guess disc brakes are where it's at for those folk. i must've seen, no kidding, at least a hundred over a week of travels. especially when groups/small packs of riders were zipping by and i could see their gear.

if you're a local shop, and a guy comes in and wants to drop several grand or so on a new trekannondalized carbon road rig with discs, what're ya gonna do, get all high & mighty? tell the customer that the ceo of sram is mr. poopie pants and you don't like him, therefore not sell the guy a bike?

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure why anyone in SoCal would need disc brakes on a road bike...we don't have much rain here ( again, maybe I am missing the " bigger picture ").

Please splain me'

ofcounsel
03-08-2016, 11:12 PM
i haven't the slightest idea.

it's the newest bag of popcorn on the shelf i guess.

there is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of folk out there who know nothing about anything other than what their bro's are saying is "cool" and at the moment, i guess disc brakes are where it's at for those folk.

I'm certainly one of those know nothing bro's who loves me some popcorn!

Tony
03-08-2016, 11:17 PM
i'm certainly one of those know nothing bro's who loves me some popcorn!

: )

54ny77
03-08-2016, 11:21 PM
no kidding. before this damned forum, i always only had ONE road bike. for probably 20 years. ONE! and it did it all.

now, i'm "that guy" with a stable of rigs, the kind of guy i made fun of back when i could only afford one bike.

ain't life grand....

boom chicka pop!

I'm certainly one of those know nothing bro's who loves me some popcorn!

ofcounsel
03-09-2016, 12:35 AM
no kidding. before this damned forum, i always only had ONE road bike. for probably 20 years. ONE! and it did it all.

now, i'm "that guy" with a stable of rigs, the kind of guy i made fun of back when i could only afford one bike.

ain't life grand....

boom chicka pop!

Life certainly is! :beer: