Hermes Sport VK11 Wheels - A (Somewhat) Brief Review

[eBAUMANN]

As most of you are probably aware, I tend to go through wheels like most people go through tires. Not necessarily because I don’t like a particular wheel, I just like trying different stuff, exploring new designs, materials, and build configurations…a subconcious quest for first-hand experience.

That said, when an opportunity presented itself for me to get my hands on a set of Hermes Sport VK11 wheels (http://hermes-sport.com/products/), I jumped on it...here's why:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1623/25457165122_522b015cea_z.jpg

Just look...at...that...thing.
That is where the magic happens.
A pretty hub, like a pretty human-being, can skate by on looks alone, for a bit...but it usually doesn't take long for the piss-poor internals to shine through.
Not the case here. Quite the opposite in fact...

I had been following the Hermes Sport Instagram account since I first noticed a post by Alex on here and was absolutely blown away by their hub design. Somehow they were able to improve upon one of my favorite engagement systems of all time - the DT star ratchet - making it simpler and replacing the springs with magnets...FRICKIN MAGNETS!

One ratchet ring, pushed into engagement against the splined back end of the freehub body itself by a magnet...simple and effective :cool:

To complement the amazing internals, they’ve employed a triplet lacing pattern on the rear (16 DS crossing spokes with 8 radial NDS) and an off-center rim profile. What does that yield? A 24h wheel that feels every bit as stiff and planted as a wheel with 32 spokes.

Ive ridden MANY low spoke count/low profile wheels from every major manufacturer and these are right up there with the best of them, if not a touch above. Not a hint of brake rub out of the saddle or anything else to suggest that the wheels had even the slightest amount of lateral flex. Maybe its the spoke tension, maybe the lacing pattern, maybe even the OC rim? I like to think its a combination of all 3 (and it likely is).

Moving up front, the wide stance of the spokes entering the hub and the large 17mm diameter axle creates a confidence-inspiring experience in even the hairiest of road conditions. Again, riding like a wheel with way more spokes.

The ONLY weakness I can see in this freehub/ratchet design is the points of engagement. While there are 26 notches in the ratchet ring, they are spread out over a much larger diameter ring (compared to DT), which creates slightly larger gaps in engagement. On the road, this isn’t really all that noticeable (because of a more constant/consistent cadence) but where I could see it becoming slightly more noticeable would be off-road in a disc version of these wheels. While not as easy a swap as with DT, upgrading the ratchet ring and freehub to a more toothy version for off-road use would not be that much of a stretch and is upgrade-option I hope Alex will consider as he moves forward with his disc-brake offerings.

Moving right along…from a price-point perspective, how do these stack up against similar offerings from the BIG 3 (White Ind, Chris King, DT Swiss)? Well, a quick glance around at a few common websites where one might purchase a nice custom set, and its easy to see that VK11’s are priced extremely competitively at $750 (their web store currently says $995 but Alex informed me recently of a price drop for both the VK11's and 51's). When you break out the pricing on the hubs, spokes, rims, and labor…its pretty incredible that Alex is able to feed himself...

Anyways, this is getting a little long-winded, so, the bottom line:

The Hermes Sport VK11 wheelset is the best alloy clincher wheelset I have ridden to date. From the world class design and machining of the hubs, to a build quality surpassed only by their ride quality, these wheels have set the bar very VERY high for me and I hope you might consider them as well if you are ever in the market!

http://hermes-sport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/i-tjBXGfV-XL.jpg

[kramnnim]

Wouldn't 26 point engagement be the same, regardless of the size of the ring?

[eBAUMANN]

Wouldn't 26 point engagement be the same, regardless of the size of the ring?

Yes but the I think the degrees of that engagement would change as the diameter changes.

26 points around a 1" circle would be closer together than 26 points around a 2" circle.

Unless I'm missing something...

[ceolwulf]

^ the 2" circle would also be moving faster.

[bicycletricycle]

The distance between the points grows but the angle between them remains the same .

360/26=13.84 no matter how big the ratchet ring is.

Engagement angle is not effected by growing the diameter of the ratchet ring.


Reminds me of how people sometimes think the placement of the magnet on the spoke will somehow change the speed the cyclometer would read.

[ultraman6970]

Ultra likes those blue hubs. Are made at home?

[likebikes]

this post sounds a little sales-y. did you buy the wheels at retail or were you given them as a demo set / paid to review them?

[stev0]

The distance between the points grows but the angle between them remains the same .

360/26=13.84 no matter how big the ratchet ring is.

Engagement angle is not effected by growing the diameter of the ratchet ring.


Reminds me of how people sometimes think the placement of the magnet on the spoke will somehow change the speed the cyclometer would read.

I think what eBAUMANN means is that the distance between each engagement point grows as the diameter does - the angle will always be the same, but the point of the engagement gets farther away from the center as the diameter grows. 26 points are not as close on a 1" circle as they are on a 2" circle.

[eBAUMANN]

I think what eBAUMANN means is that the distance between each engagement point grows as the diameter does - the angle will always be the same, but the point of the engagement gets farther away from the center as the diameter grows. 26 points are not as close on a 1" circle as they are on a 2" circle.

Im not an engineer, but I am pretty sure there is a reason by DT swiss makes 36t and 52t ratchets for their hubs as replacements for the 18t stock units.

[eBAUMANN]

this post sounds a little sales-y. did you buy the wheels at retail or were you given them as a demo set / paid to review them?

Im not sure why anyone would pay me to review something, as I have no website or audience to serve with said review...that said, Alex asked me if I would be interested in trying out a set of wheels, no strings attached. If I felt so inclined to post my impressions of the wheels, great, if not, no big deal.

Alex has designed a quality product using domestically sourced materials/labor, a design that in my opinion is easily on par with the best hubs currently on the market today and very much deserving of recognition.

I would invite any other boston paceliner to come and try these wheels themselves and see if anything I have said in the above post is not 100% accurate.

[beeatnik]

I got a wheelset from Hermes Alex once....

[Tickdoc]

what do they sound like?

Reliability/serviceability would be my biggest concerns here. Well, that and the sound....and the color ;~)

[oldpotatoe]

Ultra likes those blue hubs. Are made at home?

Who's home? Weisan? Interesting, I'm sure components sourced off shore, then assembled. Private label type stuff. Nice design but not sure I would compare to the 'big 3' hubs.

[AngryScientist]

edited.

[kramnnim]

I've known Alex for...5 years? I think these hubs were just an idea in the back of his mind then. Saw pics of CAD drawings, then the 3D printed test versions...it's been cool to follow along as they grew from an idea to the real thing.

IIRC, the hubs shells and axles are machined here, freehub bits are European. These are not the same tier as Boyd's hubs from Taiwan...

Freehub is loud, I believe he has a video on Facebook.

[kramnnim]

Im not an engineer, but I am pretty sure there is a reason by DT swiss makes 36t and 52t ratchets for their hubs as replacements for the 18t stock units.

Yes, more teeth=more engagement points, but the actual size of the star ratchet doesn't matter. It would be like comparing the length of an hour as measured by a pocket watch vs the clock on Big Ben.

[livingminimal]

Cant speak to the wheels but Alex is a really nice guy and clearly knowledgable and passionate about his work, and I definitely would try them if I had the wallet and/or need for it presently. I hope he's super successful with hermes sport.

[eBAUMANN]

Who's home? Weisan? Interesting, I'm sure components sourced off shore, then assembled. Private label type stuff. Nice design but not sure I would compare to the 'big 3' hubs.

Having logged countless miles on and completely disassembled and rebuilt hubs from the big 3, I can tell you these hubs are EASILY just as nice, if not nicer. They are machined here in the US, all info is on the website there if you'd like to learn more about em.

[aaron 1804]

Maybe I missed it here or at the link, but what width (internal/external) are the alloy rims?

Thanks!

[chiasticon]

pretty awesome hub design. would be interested to hear a comparison to the design Zipp uses in their new NSW wheelsets, which also use magnets to engage/disengage. cool stuff :hello:

these look to be Velocity A23 rims and cx-rays. any info on that? didn't see on the website.

[AngryScientist]

Maybe I missed it here or at the link, but what width (internal/external) are the alloy rims?

Thanks!

Right from the description on the site:

Hermes Sport VK11 wheelset:

23mm wide 700c alloy wheelset, clincher, tubeless compatible. 1450 grams

[Joachim]

Right from the description on the site:

For clinchers it's really the internal width that matters and I can't find that on the site.

[aaron 1804]

For clinchers it's really the internal width that matters and I can't find that on the site.

Exactly!


Thanks for the 23mm width info. I read too quickly and scanned below to see the 50mm depth for the carbons and must have thought the 23mm was for depth on the alloys.

Anyway, these are pretty appealing given the 'system' like package. Most of the tech is lost on me but a highly favorable review from someone that has real experience with so many others speaks volumes.

[bicycletricycle]

thread drift.

Do you think he will get sued by Hermes?

[kramnnim]

Only if Specialized gets involved.

[Hermes_Alex]

Hey! Just saw this - thanks for the kind words, everyone! I put the Sport at the end partly to keep Hermes off my back, a la Apple Records/Apple Computer. If you find an article in BRAIN involving me being found dead, strangled to death with a $5000 scarf, you'll know it didn't work.

Some more details:

The carbons are 24.5mm wide - delivery is about 3-4 weeks out on those right now. Both rims are 17mm internal.

I went with the lower-engagement-point ratchet design partly because I didn't place an especially high priority on fast engagement for road riding - if I were putting together some MTB wheels, it would be another story entirely :).

I use Mach1 for spokes, from France. The spokes themselves are a bit beefier, made from 2.0-1.7-2.0 wire than CX-Rays, which are made from 2.0-1.5-2.0 wire. I've had a fantastic time with them - I have them blackened locally by Lilly's Precision, who performs the same service for a number of other major wheel and spoke brands, and he was really impressed with the quality of the wire that went into making them.

[eBAUMANN]

Yes, more teeth=more engagement points, but the actual size of the star ratchet doesn't matter. It would be like comparing the length of an hour as measured by a pocket watch vs the clock on Big Ben.

26 points around a 2" circle will be spaced further apart than 26 points around a 1" circle, simply because of the difference in the circumference of each circle
If I had the ability to accurately draw this out for you I would, but I dont.
That space between each point is what matters because that space is what directly translates into whatever lag or "slop" you might feel in the freehub engagement when riding.

Someone please feel free to correct me here if Im wrong but this seems pretty cut and dry...

[jdp211]

Yes but the I think the degrees of that engagement would change as the diameter changes.
26 points around a 2" circle will be spaced further apart than 26 points around a 1" circle, simply because of the difference in the circumference of each circle
If I had the ability to accurately draw this out for you I would, but I dont.
That space between each point is what matters because that space is what directly translates into whatever lag or "slop" you might feel in the freehub engagement when riding.

Someone please feel free to correct me here if Im wrong but this seems pretty cut and dry...

The degrees separating the points matter, not the distance between them. The arc length of the circle would be different, yes, but the degrees of engagement remains the same. They're further out, but moving more quickly than if the circle was a smaller diameter. That's the reason why manufacturers measure points of engagement in degrees. The 36 and 52t upgrades from DT serve to reduce the degrees between points of engagement, they don't change the diameter of the circle.

As has been previously mentioned, the clock/watch analogy is an excellent explanation of this 'phenomenon.'

[AngryScientist]

the clock analogy is a good one. 12 hours do not go by faster on a watch then they do a wall clock.

unless that watch is in a las vegas casino and the wall clock is hanging in your dentists office.

[makoti]

thread drift.

Do you think he will get sued by Hermes?

I hate to say it, but when I saw the title, I thought "Damn! Those are going to be pricey!" Different Hermes, I see. ;)

[eBAUMANN]

The arc length of the circle would be different, yes, but the degrees of engagement remains the same. They're further out, but moving more quickly than if the circle was a smaller diameter. That's the reason why manufacturers measure points of engagement in degrees. The 36 and 52t upgrades from DT serve to reduce the degrees between points of engagement, they don't change the diameter of the circle.

Ok, THAT makes sense, thank you for the 2c.

So, to revise my earlier statement about the P-O-E, I think that a disc brake version designed for off-road use could benefit from more points of engagement, which I guess could be said for almost any freehub design ;) Instant engagement is your friend when you run out of momentum at the crest of a steep rise.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion everyone, I certainly learned something today. :beer:

Oh and my offer still stands for any Boston paceliner who wants to come test ride these wheels, just shoot me a PM.

[bicycletricycle]

26 points around a 2" circle will be spaced further apart than 26 points around a 1" circle, simply because of the difference in the circumference of each circle
If I had the ability to accurately draw this out for you I would, but I dont.
That space between each point is what matters because that space is what directly translates into whatever lag or "slop" you might feel in the freehub engagement when riding.

Someone please feel free to correct me here if Im wrong but this seems pretty cut and dry...

nope, degrees not distance matters.

[denapista]

Alex is building quality products and I know a few people who say nothing but good things about him and is wheels. The hub design is either similar or based off the Soul Kozak rear, which got well received praise from the guys at Fairwheel Bikes. Soul Kozak either folded or are just don't have the resources to distribute their products in the US. Always was interested in getting a pair of Soul Kozak hubs. I'm really into that Teal Color set of Hermes Sports though..

[Joachim]

I'm still torn between a set of tubular VK51 and Campy Bora's. Price wise they are the same.. :)

[AngryScientist]

I'm still torn between a set of tubular VK51 and Campy Bora's. Price wise they are the same.. :)

:hello:

edited, again.

[Muffin Man]

Alex is building quality products and I know a few people who say nothing but good things about him and is wheels. The hub design is either similar or based off the Soul Kozak rear, which got well received praise from the guys at Fairwheel Bikes. Soul Kozak either folded or are just don't have the resources to distribute their products in the US. Always was interested in getting a pair of Soul Kozak hubs. I'm really into that Teal Color set of Hermes Sports though..

I know a guy in Arcadia that has a bunch of Soul Kozak hubs that he's trying to get rid of. The only complain I have with them is that the bearings in the rear hub squeak right out of the box. Our group of friends have used about 3 pairs of them and each one has squeaked. We weren't too motivated to find out which bearing was causing the problem so we just changed all 4 6903 bearings to enduro bearings and they've been problem free for the last 7-8 months. The freehub is also super super loud, and its fun to tell people I have a magnetic freehub.

[FlashUNC]

Analogy I've had explained to me, which is now somewhat archaic, is a record on a record player.

Follow one point close to the center and one point further out. Both travel at very different relative speeds to make the same number of revolutions per minute.

The number of engagement points is a whole nother ball o' wax. You're changing the angle between points with that, and reducing the engagement time. Has nothing to do with the distance from hub center.

Could put 'em all the way out on the rim, but that would make for a very weird freehub.

[Formulasaab]

So, to revise my earlier statement about the P-O-E, I think that a disc brake version designed for off-road use could benefit from more points of engagement, which I guess could be said for almost any freehub design ;) [/B]


Almost... ;)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160308/b88bdd35e19d754ca4bb6e7bd8eef618.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Having logged countless miles on and completely disassembled and rebuilt hubs from the big 3, I can tell you these hubs are EASILY just as nice, if not nicer. They are machined here in the US, all info is on the website there if you'd like to learn more about em.

I haven't seen them in the wild..do they use high quality Euro bearings? If not, are the bearings easily replaceable?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is a very savvy marketer. Does Alex know you are a regular poster to an online cycling group with over 12,000 members? I would wager that he does. Hmmmm . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

Im not sure why anyone would pay me to review something, as I have no website or audience to serve with said review...that said, Alex asked me if I would be interested in trying out a set of wheels, no strings attached. If I felt so inclined to post my impressions of the wheels, great, if not, no big deal.

Alex has designed a quality product using domestically sourced materials/labor, a design that in my opinion is easily on par with the best hubs currently on the market today and very much deserving of recognition.

I would invite any other boston paceliner to come and try these wheels themselves and see if anything I have said in the above post is not 100% accurate.

[kramnnim]

I haven't seen them in the wild..do they use high quality Euro bearings? If not, are the bearings easily replaceable?

http://hermes-sport.com/service-faq/

Enduro angular contact.

[eBAUMANN]

Almost... ;)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160308/b88bdd35e19d754ca4bb6e7bd8eef618.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does Onyx have a disc hub? If so, id be very interested...

edit: just checked, looks like they do...that is rad.

[Formulasaab]

Does Onyx have a disc hub? If so, id be very interested...

edit: just checked, looks like they do...that is rad.

Yeah. They've got a hub to fit more situations than any other manufacturer I can think of. Want to run Campy on your disc brake cyclocross bike with 142mm rear spacing? No problem, what color do you want that in? Choose from 9 anodized colors, 14 powder coated colors, or polished aluminum. Crazy.

Also, according to my source, there's an 80g weight reduction coming soon, retrofit-able. I don't know what models that might apply to nor where the weight is taken from... Not yet anyway.

[Dustin]

Yeah. They've got a hub to fit more situations than any other manufacturer I can think of. Want to run Campy on your disc brake cyclocross bike with 142mm rear spacing? No problem, what color do you want that in? Choose from 9 anodized colors, 14 powder coated colors, or polished aluminum. Crazy.



Also, according to my source, there's an 80g weight reduction coming soon, retrofit-able. I don't know what models that might apply to nor where the weight is taken from... Not yet anyway.


I have a set of onyx hubs on order for a new MTB build. Cool to hear about the potential weight reduction.

To me, it's not just about the instant engagement, but the SILENCE. It's worth a weight penalty to me to only hear my tires on dirt on the back country.

[bicycletricycle]

Any onyx owners here know if the engagement is squishy feeling like the shimano silent clutch used to be?

[eBAUMANN]

... to only hear my tires on dirt on the back country.

daaaaaaamn dustin, you just transported me dude.

[Mzilliox]

nice wheels

[Formulasaab]

I have a set of onyx hubs on order for a new MTB build. Cool to hear about the potential weight reduction.

To me, it's not just about the instant engagement, but the SILENCE. It's worth a weight penalty to me to only hear my tires on dirt on the back country.

:hello:
Ah, the quiet... I love it. All I hear is the wind and my tires.

[Formulasaab]

Any onyx owners here know if the engagement is squishy feeling like the shimano silent clutch used to be?

I never tried the Shimano silent clutch, but there's no squish in my Onyx hub.

[eBAUMANN]

:hello:
Ah, the quiet... I love it. All I hear is the wind and my tires.

Although...come to think of it...in the TRUE backcountry...BEAR country that is, its probably good to have the loudest freehub you can find.

Riding trails in Jackson, WY last year, we were making as much noise as we could in some of the more remote areas we rode, just to keep from surprising any bears that might be hanging out nearby.

[Formulasaab]

Although...come to think of it...in the TRUE backcountry...BEAR country that is, its probably good to have the loudest freehub you can find.

Riding trails in Jackson, WY last year, we were making as much noise as we could in some of the more remote areas we rode, just to keep from surprising any bears that might be hanging out nearby.

Hmmm...
If your freehub doesn't make a noise in the woods, are the bears there to hear?
:beer:

[Dustin]

Although...come to think of it...in the TRUE backcountry...BEAR country that is, its probably good to have the loudest freehub you can find.

Riding trails in Jackson, WY last year, we were making as much noise as we could in some of the more remote areas we rode, just to keep from surprising any bears that might be hanging out nearby.


Truth be told, I'm kinda worried about the onyx hub on crowded urban trails. But I tend to use a bear bell when descending those anyway.