Lance at CU in Boulder

[oldpotatoe]

Wish I knew about this, I would have gone.

http://cyclingtips.com/

numbskull right below gets it, IMHO.

[numbskull]

Thanks for posting this.
Lance Armstrong makes the world a more interesting place.
I, for one, am glad he just does not "go away".
I believe he is a hugely important data point in the fascinating subject of how athletic competition molds human behavior.
I find no reason to judge him since my opinion does not matter and will not change anything.
I find good reason to listen to him objectively and try to understand him (not excuse or affirm him) since I think his example can teach us much about sport.....and ourselves.

[redir]

IT would have been interesting.

[FlashUNC]

Leopard cannot change spots. Film at 11.

[Tickdoc]

such an a$$hole. (and I would've gone, too :~O)

[LegendRider]

Pielke later said Armstrong’s claim about Tygart’s participation was “not accurate.”

Dog bites man.

[cdn_bacon]

Thanks for posting this.
Lance Armstrong makes the world a more interesting place.
I, for one, am glad he just does not "go away".
I believe he is a hugely important data point in the fascinating subject of how athletic competition molds human behavior.
I find no reason to judge him since my opinion does not matter and will not change anything.
I find good reason to listen to him objectively and try to understand him (not excuse or affirm him) since I think his example can teach us much about sport.....and ourselves.

+1 gets it. and I agree.

can we start a fund to get him some hair dye though? I've always been curious as to what that amount of PED consumption will do to their lives in the long run. He looks aged. And it happened in a very short period of time.

[velomonkey]

Armstrong pulled no punches, saying that USADA is “one of the most ineffective and inefficient organisations in the world,”

Says the guy who got all tour titles taken away and is in a lot of hot water due to the USADA.

Oh that's rich. I can't believe this stuff was fed to college students.

[GregL]

Armstrong pulled no punches, saying that USADA is “one of the most ineffective and inefficient organisations in the world,”

Says the guy who got all tour titles taken away and is in a lot of hot water due to the USADA.

Oh that's rich. I can't believe this stuff was fed to college students.
Give the college students (and their professor) some credit. They can be very perceptive. The professor had Travis Tygart speak to the class the prior week, so the students were getting two sides of the story.

I heard G. Gordon Liddy speak when I was in college. This was about ten years post-Watergate. He was charismatic and charming. That didn't mean that we couldn't see right through his self-serving presentation...

-Greg

[PaulE]

Is the gray hair part of the redemption and comeback story?

Juan Pelota said "But then, when this ball started rolling..." hehe!

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59001161.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Armstrong pulled no punches, saying that USADA is “one of the most ineffective and inefficient organisations in the world,”

Says the guy who got all tour titles taken away and is in a lot of hot water due to the USADA.

Oh that's rich. I can't believe this stuff was fed to college students.

I applaud the professor for bringing them both, albeit separately. He had some good reasoning in the piece for why he wanted both men to show up and talk about their perspectives and experiences.

[CunegoFan]

Armstrong pulled no punches, saying that USADA is “one of the most ineffective and inefficient organisations in the world,”

Says the guy who got all tour titles taken away and is in a lot of hot water due to the USADA.

Oh that's rich. I can't believe this stuff was fed to college students.

Why don't you quote all of what he said instead of a small soundbite made before he finishes his point?

The whole quote says that USADA's positive rate is extremely small and it catches a tiny fraction of those who are doping. Testing is ineffective so USADA needs a few big cases like his to fool the public into thinking that the process is working.

He is right. Anti-doping is a PR campaign set up by sports organizations so they don't have to admit the truth about doping. It is a charade.

[FlashUNC]

Why don't you quote all of what he said instead of a small soundbite made before he finishes his point?

The whole quote says that USADA's positive rate is extremely small and it catches a tiny fraction of those who are doping. Testing is ineffective so USADA needs a few big cases like his to fool the public into thinking that the process is working.

He is right. Anti-doping is a PR campaign set up by sports organizations so they don't have to admit the truth about doping. It is a charade.

So was Lance also right when he said on Oprah that out of competition testing and better testing is doing a more thorough job of keeping dopers at bay?

Because he can't have it both ways. Either USADA is more effective in their methods now or they're not.

But that's Lance too, his statements change depending on whichever way the wind blows.

[OtayBW]

I believe he is a hugely important data point in the fascinating subject of how athletic competition molds human behavior.
Haha! Added to my list of quotable quotes!

[93legendti]

It's not like he deliberately mishandled classified and top secret information or made millions in speaking fees from Wall Street banks...;)

[unterhausen]

if I need political lies and misrepresentation, I know where to find it, thanks

[CunegoFan]

So was Lance also right when he said on Oprah that out of competition testing and better testing is doing a more thorough job of keeping dopers at bay?

Because he can't have it both ways. Either USADA is more effective in their methods now or they're not.

But that's Lance too, his statements change depending on whichever way the wind blows.

The haters like you will twist anything to justify your bile. Anything he says, you'll read something into it.

Testing has changed. It is different than it was twenty years ago. It is different than it was ten years ago. Even if you believe the UCI's public story about cycling being all cleaned up now then it is not due do traditional testing. It is due to the ABP, which USADA has nothing to do with.

Armstrong is also in a difficult situation. He has to play along with the UCI's story because he hopes that it will eventually come to its senses about admitting the obvious, that doping was the norm during the 90s and 00s. He cannot exactly go to the press, point to Froome, and laugh about how blatant the doping still is.

[FlashUNC]

He could. Yanno, what Greg did. Tell the truth.

But that's never been Lance's strong suit.

[Mark McM]

Why don't you quote all of what he said instead of a small soundbite made before he finishes his point?

The whole quote says that USADA's positive rate is extremely small and it catches a tiny fraction of those who are doping. Testing is ineffective so USADA needs a few big cases like his to fool the public into thinking that the process is working.

He is right. Anti-doping is a PR campaign set up by sports organizations so they don't have to admit the truth about doping. It is a charade.

Sorry, no revisionism allowed here. USADA is an independent organization that was forced upon the sporting bodies by WADA. WADA was forced upon the sporting bodies by the IOC. The sports bodies don't want USADA, and would get rid of it if it could. Non-Olympic sports in the US like the major league sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) are not required to be under USADA jurisdiction, and they have chosen not to be associated with USADA at all.

It is true that USADA has a relatively small rate of finding dopers (we assume). But it has to cover many, many sports (basically, all the Olympic sports) with a relatively small budget. By analogy, the FBI and local police agencies make only a relatively few arrests in crimes like burglary, identification theft, shoplifting, etc. Does that mean they should stop trying to pursue these crimes?

It also quite possible that USADA specifically targeted Armstrong due to his high public profile. But this is a standard tactic used by every enforcement agency - making a few very high profile cases can serve as a better deterrent than making many low profile cases that no one ever hears about. In this way it is often a more efficient use of resources.

[Tickdoc]

I'm curious what the collective say about this whole situation post lance.

I would go see him, hear his side, etc. There is something to learn from everyone, IMO. I admired the heck out of him when he was a trip-dominating teen, and then when he transferred to road racing. Until I saw what an asshole he can be.

How do you compare the infractions of him (lance) compared to say....Floyd?

What about compared to say...Millar?

And then, compared to say....a cocaine/speed using rider from the fifties?

It is a tangled web to try and discern what line separates an unfair advantage, and what role the organizers play.

[OtayBW]

I'm curious what the collective say about this whole situation post lance.

I would go see him, hear his side, etc. There is something to learn from everyone, IMO. I admired the heck out of him when he was a trip-dominating teen, and then when he transferred to road racing. Until I saw what an asshole he can be.

How do you compare the infractions of him (lance) compared to say....Floyd?

What about compared to say...Millar?

And then, compared to say....a cocaine/speed using rider from the fifties?

It is a tangled web to try and discern what line separates an unfair advantage, and what role the organizers play.
By infractions, do you mean 'doper/cheater', or 'liar/bully'? I would go to see a speaker regarding the former; I'm not so sure about the latter.

[FlashUNC]

I'm curious what the collective say about this whole situation post lance.

I would go see him, hear his side, etc. There is something to learn from everyone, IMO. I admired the heck out of him when he was a trip-dominating teen, and then when he transferred to road racing. Until I saw what an asshole he can be.

How do you compare the infractions of him (lance) compared to say....Floyd?

What about compared to say...Millar?

And then, compared to say....a cocaine/speed using rider from the fifties?

It is a tangled web to try and discern what line separates an unfair advantage, and what role the organizers play.

For me I never had a problem with the doping. He's right in that was the time and the era, and Pete's sake, it isn't as if the entire history of the sport isn't inextricably tied up in doping.

My problem is how he manipulated his comeback story and cancer sufferers globally as a shield to deflect any allegations that, hey, he might be using the same drugs as the guys he's beating into a pulp.

Instead of the same pat denials, he decided to take advantage of the sick and the dying.

I can forgive the doping. I can't forgive being a general scumbag.

[paredown]

I would attend, given a chance but...

[livingminimal]

For me I never had a problem with the doping. He's right in that was the time and the era, and Pete's sake, it isn't as if the entire history of the sport isn't inextricably tied up in doping.

My problem is how he manipulated his comeback story and cancer sufferers globally as a shield to deflect any allegations that, hey, he might be using the same drugs as the guys he's beating into a pulp.

Instead of the same pat denials, he decided to take advantage of the sick and the dying.

I can forgive the doping. I can't forgive being a general scumbag.

What's lost in your summary is how he bullied people during his "reign." He ended careers, ruined reputations, and ����ed with peoples mental and financial well-being considerably. This is not theory or opinion.

The doping bothers me because I don't like cheating in sport. However, had he been just another doper that was caught and disgraced, despite having been a perennial TdF winner, I would feel a lot less disgust for him and schadenfreude for myself. I don't try to deny it.

My biggest issue is that he, throughout all of this, showed a lot of the tendencies that make up for some the worst qualities and traits in human beings. "Bullying" may sound like something that happens at your locker when you don't give a bigger kid your extra tater tots, but the truth is our whole human experience is filled with occasions of ����ing assholes taking advantage of other people's weakened positions to fulfill their own self-aggrandizing "glory."

How he behaved, what he did, etc was ����ed. During his career, and for the most part, after. Though lately he seems to be toning it down some.

He's consistently shown himself to be a douchebag of the highest order with plenty of sociopathic tendencies. My opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, not to anyone here and especially not to LA, but he would have to ����ing cure cancer at this point to make me think he's got much worth outside of (hopefully being a good) dad.

[PQJ]

if I need political lies and misrepresentation, I know where to find it, thanks

[x] Like

[FlashUNC]

What's lost in your summary is how he bullied people during his "reign." He ended careers, ruined reputations, and ����ed with peoples mental and financial well-being considerably. This is not theory or opinion.

The doping bothers me because I don't like cheating in sport. However, had he been just another doper that was caught and disgraced, despite having been a perennial TdF winner, I would feel a lot less disgust for him and schadenfreude for myself. I don't try to deny it.

My biggest issue is that he, throughout all of this, showed a lot of the tendencies that make up for some the worst qualities and traits in human beings. "Bullying" may sound like something that happens at your locker when you don't give a bigger kid your extra tater tots, but the truth is our whole human experience is filled with occasions of ����ing assholes taking advantage of other people's weakened positions to fulfill their own self-aggrandizing "glory."

How he behaved, what he did, etc was ����ed. During his career, and for the most part, after. Though lately he seems to be toning it down some.

He's consistently shown himself to be a douchebag of the highest order with plenty of sociopathic tendencies. My opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, not to anyone here and especially not to LA, but he would have to ����ing cure cancer at this point to make me think he's got much worth outside of (hopefully being a good) dad.

Oh totally. I can even forgive the omerta stuff to some degree, but its the exploitation of cancer sufferers that I found to be the notably unforgivable sin.

[choke]

I wouldn't walk across the street to see him speak...even if it included free beer.

[gasman]

It's not like he deliberately mishandled classified and top secret information or made millions in speaking fees from Wall Street banks...;)

:no::no: You know better than that. NO POLITICS

[Mark McM]

It's not like he deliberately mishandled classified and top secret information or made millions in speaking fees from Wall Street banks...;)

That we know of ...

[PeregrineA1]

What's lost in your summary is how he bullied people during his "reign." He ended careers, ruined reputations, and ����ed with peoples mental and financial well-being considerably. This is not theory or opinion.

The doping bothers me because I don't like cheating in sport. However, had he been just another doper that was caught and disgraced, despite having been a perennial TdF winner, I would feel a lot less disgust for him and schadenfreude for myself. I don't try to deny it.

My biggest issue is that he, throughout all of this, showed a lot of the tendencies that make up for some the worst qualities and traits in human beings. "Bullying" may sound like something that happens at your locker when you don't give a bigger kid your extra tater tots, but the truth is our whole human experience is filled with occasions of ����ing assholes taking advantage of other people's weakened positions to fulfill their own self-aggrandizing "glory."

How he behaved, what he did, etc was ����ed. During his career, and for the most part, after. Though lately he seems to be toning it down some.

He's consistently shown himself to be a douchebag of the highest order with plenty of sociopathic tendencies. My opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, not to anyone here and especially not to LA, but he would have to ����ing cure cancer at this point to make me think he's got much worth outside of (hopefully being a good) dad.

Crossing the political line...again. We have people running for a high office in this country that subscribe to the same principles. It's a power thing. Absolute power and all that.

Not a problem limited to cycling or politics.

[Ray]

I thought it was an interesting tape. I agree with most of what he said actually. Like others, I don't and never really did have an issue with his doping, because it so clearly WAS a level playing field. In that context, he should still be remembered as a great Tour rider, official wins be damned. The thing I always hated about him was his total lust for power and how he'd do ANYTHING to ANYONE to maintain that, even to people who'd been loyal to him and even his closest friends. Based on that stuff I feel like he got what he deserved and I don't feel sorry for him a bit.

But I don't think some level of personal redemption is out of the question. I don't think he'll ever get or deserve PUBLIC redemption, but at the personal level, he seems pretty clearheaded about the situation and what he did. He obviously doesn't regret the doping, but he SEEMS to regret the reign of terror he left in his wake.

I read Emma O'Reilly's book recently. Really good book I thought - she recounted all of the ways she was victimized by Lance, and victimized just as surely by David Walsh. Understood the doping and Omerta but not the politics of personal destruction, etc. Lance wrote the forward. In it, he's very clear that everything she had said publicly had been true, that he'd tried to destroy her in his attempt to hold onto his position, and that he didn't deserve her forgiveness.

But they'd seen each other since, he'd apologized fully to her. And she'd seen it in herself to forgive him. Less for him than for her - forgiveness is powerful ����, as we've seen pretty recently in Charleston, SC. And the last two lines in Lance's forward read "I honestly don't know if I'd have the courage and character to do what Emma did. This won't come as a shock to anyone, but this woman is a much better person than I am or will ever be".

To me that's impressive, regardless of the purity of his motives for writing it. I'd still never vote for the guy for public office (hope that didn't cross the political line!) and I'm sure he won't get any of his endorsements back. But it SOUNDS like personal growth. Regardless, I wish him some level of personal peace as he lives out his years. He did some terrible things in pursuit of his very lofty goals and he's been and being punished for it, as he should be. But I don't wish him a lifetime and pain and suffering for it. The punishment seems to fit the crimes for the most part.

-Ray

[Mzilliox]

I wouldn't walk across the street to see him speak...even if it included free beer.

but would you do it to punch him in the face? did anyone punch him in the face? i just want him to get punched every time he makes a public appearance. its fine for him to still think hes famous, but he should be famous for getting punched in the face daily. hes a sore loser and a worse winner.

He can eat full bag of dicks

[Black Dog]

I thought it was an interesting tape. I agree with most of what he said actually. Like others, I don't and never really did have an issue with his doping, because it so clearly WAS a level playing field. In that context, he should still be remembered as a great Tour rider, official wins be damned. The thing I always hated about him was his total lust for power and how he'd do ANYTHING to ANYONE to maintain that, even to people who'd been loyal to him and even his closest friends. Based on that stuff I feel like he got what he deserved and I don't feel sorry for him a bit.

But I don't think some level of personal redemption is out of the question. I don't think he'll ever get or deserve PUBLIC redemption, but at the personal level, he seems pretty clearheaded about the situation and what he did. He obviously doesn't regret the doping, but he SEEMS to regret the reign of terror he left in his wake.

I read Emma O'Reilly's book recently. Really good book I thought - she recounted all of the ways she was victimized by Lance, and victimized just as surely by David Walsh. Understood the doping and Omerta but not the politics of personal destruction, etc. Lance wrote the forward. In it, he's very clear that everything she had said publicly had been true, that he'd tried to destroy her in his attempt to hold onto his position, and that he didn't deserve her forgiveness.

But they'd seen each other since, he'd apologized fully to her. And she'd seen it in herself to forgive him. Less for him than for her - forgiveness is powerful ����, as we've seen pretty recently in Charleston, SC. And the last two lines in Lance's forward read "I honestly don't know if I'd have the courage and character to do what Emma did. This won't come as a shock to anyone, but this woman is a much better person than I am or will ever be".

To me that's impressive, regardless of the purity of his motives for writing it. I'd still never vote for the guy for public office (hope that didn't cross the political line!) and I'm sure he won't get any of his endorsements back. But it SOUNDS like personal growth. Regardless, I wish him some level of personal peace as he lives out his years. He did some terrible things in pursuit of his very lofty goals and he's been and being punished for it, as he should be. But I don't wish him a lifetime and pain and suffering for it. The punishment seems to fit the crimes for the most part.

-Ray


This is a myth. 1st of all there were a few guys who played by the rules and did not dope. Tilted field. Second, not all doping is equal and those with more money got better programs and performed better. Also, not everyone responds equally to doping. Tilted field.

[Tickdoc]

but would you do it to punch him in the face? did anyone punch him in the face? i just want him to get punched every time he makes a public appearance. its fine for him to still think hes famous, but he should be famous for getting punched in the face daily. hes a sore loser and a worse winner.

He can eat full bag of dicks

I love your subtle style:hello:

[bikinchris]

Lance had a choice. Dope or go back to the US. He chose to stay. I know others who chose to go home. He made what he thought was his best choice. He made the mistake of defending that choice by attacking others. I don't agree with it, but I don't have the personality needed to rise to the top of a sport either.
I don't hate Lance. I dropped that hate long ago. I just don't agree with his choices. You guys who hate him have to drag that hate around with you. That is another bad choice.

[FlashUNC]

Lance had a choice. Dope or go back to the US. He chose to stay. I know others who chose to go home. He made what he thought was his best choice. He made the mistake of defending that choice by attacking others. I don't agree with it, but I don't have the personality needed to rise to the top of a sport either.
I don't hate Lance. I dropped that hate long ago. I just don't agree with his choices. You guys who hate him have to drag that hate around with you. That is another bad choice.

We're not exactly Ahab with the white whale.

You see Lance, you boo. Its pretty simple.

[Ray]

This is a myth. 1st of all there were a few guys who played by the rules and did not dope. Tilted field. Second, not all doping is equal and those with more money got better programs and performed better. Also, not everyone responds equally to doping. Tilted field.

Yeah, I get all that - I read enough to understand that. But in my mind, you either make the choice to dope or to not dope, and if you don't you accept you're not gonna be competing for the top prizes agains the many guys who do. And if you choose to dope, it becomes another part of your program and you do it as well as you can.

NOTHING, team organizations, rider salaries (and thus the quality of teammates), equipment budgets, etc are equal given that the more successful teams have more $$ and success feeds on itself. So they put the most money and organization into their doping program once they decided to do it. You only have to read Tyler's book to see the difference it made to riders to have the whole program highly organized and executed by the team (with Postal) and then let the riders handle it on their own (with Phonak). So I get it's not equal, but it's as equal as anything else in a competitive situation and everyone starts with the same opportunity to do it or not, and to do it as well as they can if they're gonna choose to do it.

The point about different people reacting differently to doping is also true, so that's an element of luck for Lance - he obviously benefitted from it a lot. He wasn't the only one who did, but he was one of the ones who did and that made him one of the contenders.

I simply don't judge that part of it - with such a huge % of the peloton using EPO or blood doping, the "high octane" stuff as he puts it, the guys who chose not to do it we mostly don't know much about - a lot of them went home and good on 'em for making that choice. But we still watched high level bike racing, and the highest level of bike racing from the mid-90s forward was being done on that high octane dope.

Him being a complete and total a$$hole to those around him to me was the big sin, the reason he took the fall he took, and the thing he'll be judged for. Many will judge him for the doping too, but I don't. Or the other guys who chose to do it as the price of entry for being competitive. I guess I blame the first few people who discovered the benefits of the stuff and set the precedent, but if they hadn't done it, others would have...

-Ray

[malcolm]

This is a myth. 1st of all there were a few guys who played by the rules and did not dope. Tilted field. Second, not all doping is equal and those with more money got better programs and performed better. Also, not everyone responds equally to doping. Tilted field.

Nothing is ever completely fair and the field is never completely level. A doper is a doper, you can't honestly punish one more because he was more effective at it.

I agree with the sentiment that Lance is getting what he got not because of doping but because he's a dick.
I see it all the time in my own career, people are ruined for things other nicer people could get by with. When you are on the top and beneath your feet are crushed souls of people you've made your enemy it's very difficult to stay on top. Much easier when you are on the shoulders of your friends.

[peanutgallery]

I thought the cancer carpet bagger died from public riducule and chris horner was conducting an awareness campaign about the dangers of said public ridicule?

I can almost for give the sociopath and doping thing but the livestrong bully pulpit deal is hard to look past. May he rot in hell or at least jail for that

Not sure how he sleeps at night, but then again. ..he is a socipath