Tragedy in Tucson...

[joev]

Loss for words...

http://tucson.com/news/local/bicyclists-killed-driver-arrested-in-crash-on-nw-side/article_c68e8e72-e17c-11e5-87d9-4350db0e079b.html

[Cicli]

Man o man. That sucks.

[Tickdoc]

Loss for words...

http://tucson.com/news/local/bicyclists-killed-driver-arrested-in-crash-on-nw-side/article_c68e8e72-e17c-11e5-87d9-4350db0e079b.html

Very sad. And they were in the bike lane. Prayers to the dead and their family and hope the others heal well.

[ripvanrando]

I think they were stopped in the bike lane when the homicidal criminal crashed into the victims

[DarrinNYC]

Sorry to the families and victims. Now throw away the key on this guy!

[Peter P.]

Very sad. And they were in the bike lane. Prayers to the dead and their family and hope the others heal well.

And they were STOPPED at a red light.

[joev]

I ride through that intersection every so often. A major Saturday morning ride goes through here. This road was just rebuilt with more lanes and bike lanes added. It's dead straight through here!!!!!

I've had the great pleasure with riding and talking with folks visiting for the weather and look forward to continuing to meet with them.

I just don't know what to do when stuff like this happens.

[Black Dog]

Drinking and Driving...:( When will we ever learn to treat it like the crime it really is. This is all so sad and preventable.

[nesteel]

Drinking and Driving...:( When will we ever learn to treat it like the crime it really is. This is all so sad and preventable.

Bingo.

[merlinmurph]

Man, that's awful.

One thing I noticed in the article (and that I appreciate) is that the article does not call this an "accident" - it uses the word "crash". I just listened to a Fattycast podcast with a ex-racer lawyer named Megan Hottman. In the podcast, she mentions how she never uses "accident" and always refers to these incidents as a "crash". Anyways, just an observation.

And again, this is just awful.

[soulspinner]

bingo.

+1000

[Fatty]

Horrible news. Very sad.

[earlfoss]

Drinking and Driving...:( When will we ever learn to treat it like the crime it really is. This is all so sad and preventable.

I understand the spirit of your message but impaired driving doesn't necessarily mean alcohol was involved. There are lots of drugs that impair you!

[YesNdeed]

The SOBs (Seniors on Bikes) are well known and liked in and around Santa Fe. This is a very sad loss.

[ripvanrando]

One of the newspapers said drunk driving but it could have been any substance that he intentionally took and negligently crashed into the riders.

[DRZRM]

Wow! That is so horrible.

[BobO]

I ride through that intersection every so often. A major Saturday morning ride goes through here. This road was just rebuilt with more lanes and bike lanes added. It's dead straight through here!!!!!

I've had the great pleasure with riding and talking with folks visiting for the weather and look forward to continuing to meet with them.

I just don't know what to do when stuff like this happens.

I ride through there all the time. LaCanada is the best north-south route from Oro Valley down to Ina, Orange Grove and River. It really is a good safe road. I ride it solo, with GABA, with BR, groups ranging from five to fifty. This is horrible, not a reason in hell for this to have happened. It was nice of the news to put that SCOTT ROOFING truck on the clip. Though I suspect this effer is no longer employed there.

One of the newspapers said drunk driving but it could have been any substance that he intentionally took and negligently crashed into the riders.

I couldn't really care less what he was on at the moment, he made a choice that cost the lives of two innocent people. Eff him, I hope he spends 20 years in prison getting treated very badly by the bad dudes inside.

The crazy thing is this could have been worse. There's a major school crossing right down the road from where this happened.

[BobO]

Man, that's awful.

One thing I noticed in the article (and that I appreciate) is that the article does not call this an "accident" - it uses the word "crash". I just listened to a Fattycast podcast with a ex-racer lawyer named Megan Hottman. In the podcast, she mentions how she never uses "accident" and always refers to these incidents as a "crash". Anyways, just an observation.

And again, this is just awful.

The reporter did a good job of placing blame where it belonged. No mention of "side by side" or "helmet" just that an asshole committed a crime. Kudos to the news on that.

Edit- They now have a picture of this assclown up.
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/31379145/la-canada-overtonhardy-closed-by-serious-collision

As it turns out one of the riders killed was local. Ken Vieira of the Cactus Cycling Club. I actually had the pleasure of riding with him a couple years back, nice man. Sad.

[kevinvc]

Crap. My mom will see this on the news and I'll have to go through the whole discussion with her again on why it's safer and healthier for me to ride a bike than not. She'll bring up the "think of your kids having to grow up without their father" argument, I'll get upset, and it will wind up ending badly. It's predictable and happens pretty much anytime she sees a story about a cyclist being killed. My mom is at an age and temperament where she thinks the world is an incredibly scary and dangerous place. It's sad.

[DreaminJohn]

Crap. My mom will see this on the news and I'll have to go through the whole discussion with her again on why it's safer and healthier for me to ride a bike than not. She'll bring up the "think of your kids having to grow up without their father" argument, I'll get upset, and it will wind up ending badly. It's predictable and happens pretty much anytime she sees a story about a cyclist being killed. My mom is at an age and temperament where she thinks the world is an incredibly scary and dangerous place. It's sad.

I've got one of these living a phone call away as well. Unfortunately I've let it cut into my overall enjoyment of cycling as I mainly ride MUTs and back roads now.

[jt2gt]

I've got one of these living a phone call away as well. Unfortunately I've let it cut into my overall enjoyment of cycling as I mainly ride MUTs and back roads now.

+1...I've turned to trail running/running and Mtn. Biking. I hardly road ride anymore. With 8/10 folks driving by me on handheld phones and others doing who knows what like this driver...its stressful road riding these days. Not a relaxing getaway activity like it used to me for me.

[unterhausen]

my riding has gone more towards gravel too. Although that's because the roads aren't that great until I get pretty far from the house, and the people that I have to ride alongside are angry with their boss at Walmart and wish they could get a job closer to home. So they take it out on a relatively powerless cyclist.

[BobO]

I think I'm gonna go ride past there after work today and give a quick salute to fallen comrades. :(

[tumbler]

Horrible.

[cv1966]

My condolences to the families and victims of this tragedy. I truly love road riding but sometimes reading stuff like this makes me think I should stick to trails. And I hate that idiot drivers make me think that way.

[Black Dog]

I understand the spirit of your message but impaired driving doesn't necessarily mean alcohol was involved. There are lots of drugs that impair you!

Fair enough. I mentioned dunking as it was mention in the article. Hoever, I do consider driving under the influence or even distracted driving to be equally vicious crimes.

[BobO]

Fair enough. I mentioned dunking as it was mention in the article. Hoever, I do consider driving under the influence or even distracted driving to be equally vicious crimes.

I agree, they are equal crimes based on result. I rode through the site this afternoon. I'm choked up, it was horrible. I strongly suspect this was both DUI and distracted. There were at least three unique skid marks, suggesting that there were two more cars behind this guy who weren't paying attention either. His skid marks start in the bike lane at the stop line. At least one bike was completely through the intersection, maybe 100 or more feet from the stop line. Horrible.

[Idris Icabod]

Local news tonight claims the driver was under the influence of methamphetamine and marijuana.

[eddief]

Claire Rhoades, one of the victims, was a person I had the pleasure of cycling with last year on an organized tour in S. France. A dynamic, strong, waif of a woman at age 72. Cut down in her mid-years by an apparent drug addicted human being. Beyond sad.

[unterhausen]

really sad.

Nobody on the road was safe, motorists are delusional if they think they are safe from a person this badly impaired.

[BobO]

really sad.

Nobody on the road was safe, motorists are delusional if they think they are safe from a person this badly impaired.

True enough and I think most people most people condemn impaired driving even if they do so themselves occasionally.

I believe this incident would have been relatively minor for someone in a car. The skid marks were only about 30 feet long from start to stop. I'm gonna guess he was doing less than 40 to begin with.

[54ny77]

This is so awful. I learned of this yesterday from a pal, who has a friend that was on that ride. He was lucky and not hit by the truck. Such a senseless terrible tragedy, can only offer condolences to friends and family.

Sadly, the lesson here is I am now going to pay that much greater attention to all lanes of traffic when at intersections, especially when stopped. Already do, but will consciously step it up even more.

Be safe out there, folks.

[Peter P.]

True enough and I think most people most people condemn impaired driving even if they do so themselves occasionally.


Yeah; they only condemn OTHER peoples' actions. Of course, the condemners can ALL handle their liquor, meth, and pot...

[BobO]

Yeah; they only condemn OTHER peoples' actions. Of course, the condemners can ALL handle their liquor, meth, and pot...

Such is human nature. Unfortunately, there will always be DUI, as sad a statement as that is, there's nothing we can do to stop it. What I would like to see are automated cars that can do the driving for the intoxicated people.

This case is pretty extreme. This guy was seriously impaired at noon in a company vehicle. That's a really special kind of stupid and selfish.

[oldpotatoe]

Such is human nature. Unfortunately, there will always be DUI, as sad a statement as that is, there's nothing we can do to stop it. What I would like to see are automated cars that can do the driving for the intoxicated people.

This case is pretty extreme. This guy was seriously impaired at noon in a company vehicle. That's a really special kind of stupid and selfish.

Has it been reported what the driver was impaired with?

Below, thanks Walter-at 12:00 no less. Hopefully he'll spend some time with 'Bubba, and hopefully the families will have their attorney sue the company..they hired him.

[Walter]

Has it been reported what the driver was impaired with?

Local news reported meth and pot...

[CSKeller]

Interesting article.

http://tucson.com/news/local/columnists/steller/article_af9eefbb-1f90-5ecb-8cf7-5a89a8d85fe6.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

What angers me the most is this: The fine for seriously injuring a cyclist, he pointed out, is $500. For killing one, it’s $1,000. In other words, unless you’re committing another crime, like hit and run, when you crash into a cyclist, you’re likely to get off relatively easily in Arizona, if you have any consequences at all.

Seems like this kind of legistlation is standard across the country. I recently spoke with a friend who's son was hit by a car while cycling...and he is the one that was charged even though the woman that hit him was texting.

It's unfortunate...just be careful out there Paceliners!!

[Black Dog]

Interesting article.

http://tucson.com/news/local/columnists/steller/article_af9eefbb-1f90-5ecb-8cf7-5a89a8d85fe6.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

What angers me the most is this:

Seems like this kind of legistlation is standard across the country. I recently spoke with a friend who's son was hit by a car while cycling...and he is the one that was charged even though the woman that hit him was texting.

It's unfortunate...just be careful out there Paceliners!!

If you want to commit murder: get in a car and hit someone. You will get a fine and light slap on the wrist. Anything to do with cars in North America get an automatic pass on personal responsibility.

[BobO]

If you want to commit murder: get in a car and hit someone. You will get a fine and light slap on the wrist. Anything to do with cars in North America get an automatic pass on personal responsibility.

The penalties for killing a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist, driver, etc., with a car are all the same. If the incident is determined to be an accident, as in not a deliberate act, those penalties appear to be somewhat light. When there are aggravating circumstances those penalties ramp up rapidly. Here's the thing, if every fatal collision were treated as murder, what would be the unintended consequences?

[Black Dog]

The penalties for killing a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist, driver, etc., with a car are all the same. If the incident is determined to be an accident, as in not a deliberate act, those penalties appear to be somewhat light. When there are aggravating circumstances those penalties ramp up rapidly. Here's the thing, if every fatal collision were treated as murder, what would be the unintended consequences?

I am suggesting that the burden of responsibility be placed on the operator of the vehicle. There are very few accidents but there are a lot of collisions. I was not suggesting that everyone be charged with murder. Just illustrating a point.

[ferrell]

This is horrible. It's sad to know that this could happen to me at any time.

[Bob Ross]

Here's the thing, if every fatal collision were treated as murder, what would be the unintended consequences?

I'm not sure I care; I'm feeling pretty darn comfortable with the intended consequences.

But happy to hear a different perspective: What am I missing?

[BobO]

I'm not sure I care; I'm feeling pretty darn comfortable with the intended consequences.

But happy to hear a different perspective: What am I missing?

The issue becomes how one goes about defining civil vs criminal infractions. (I'm not an attorney) If we want to go about reclassifying an error made in the operation of a vehicle toward being criminal that has an effect on the legal process in that we have lowered the bar for being prosecuted as a criminal. In the current system intent and aggravated status have an effect on how cases are handled. For example, while driving if someone accidentally changes lanes into me and runs me off the road, when considering intent that is different than someone road-raging and running me off the road. Net effect is the same, but the behavior of the responsible party is criminal in one instance and not the other. If we were to take both instances as criminal, even varying degrees of criminal, we have entered the slippery slope.

While we may like to see that as cyclists, I don't think its a net gain for us as a whole. What would happen if a kid chased a ball in front of a paceline doing 30 mph? He'd probably get killed, are the actions of the cyclists criminal? Maybe they shouldn't have been in a paceline on a residential street, maybe they were going too fast, the guy eleventh in line could not see as far as legally required, etc. We all perform activities on a daily basis that put us at risk for civil liability based upon mistakes, do we want to add criminal to that?

There's definately a slippery slope to watch for. It's better in the long run to severely punish the clearly criminal behavior like this particular case, and handle the mistakes in civil courts where people can hold each other accountable. We can argue for stiffer fines for mistakes, but again, just how far do we want to push that envelope?

Now, consider the potential that by reducing the standard by which we measure criminal behavior may have the net effect of weakening legal process against actual criminal behavior. Again, I've been run off the road by a road-rager. That is no more severe a crime than the little old lady who accidentally changed lanes into me. When viewed publicly, the behavior of the road-rager may now be viewed as less severe than it may have otherwise been.

I want the criminal in this case, who killed two cyclists, to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, I want to see him serve serious time in prison for his obviously criminal behavior. I don't want to the appalling nature of his choices weakened by equating them with mistakes that lacked criminality.