Is hip range of motion set in stone?

[MattTuck]

Lots of talk lately about pedaling technique.

One thing that I wonder about position and the human body is just how fixed things like hip range of motion, hamstring flexibility, back strength, etc.

I see a pretty big range of pedaling style in the pro peloton, and those guys (presumably) could spend hours per day working mobility/flexibility/strength to achieve the best position. So, what hope do I, a rank amateur with a real job, have of achieving improvement?

[Black Dog]

Flexibility is a good thing from a biomechanics perspective. Hamstrings and back flexibility in cycling is key. The good news is that it does not take a lot of work to increase your flexibility. Simple stretches will get you there. There is no set target, just a goal of getting as close as you reasonably can to your personal limits in flexibility. There is a wide range of potential flexibility among humans.

[Mikej]

In a way it is - if your pelvis is tilted forward it will affect the rotation of the acetabulum. Hip sockets are not perfectly round, so even flexibility may not help.

[MattTuck]

In a way it is - if your pelvis is tilted forward it will affect the rotation of the acetabulum. Hip sockets are not perfectly round, so even flexibility may not help.

So you're saying it isn't set in stone; but it may be set in bone ;) :banana:

[Mikej]

So you're saying it isn't set in stone; but it may be set in bone ;) :banana:

Yeah - good one!

[firerescuefin]

Most adults can absolutely improve their hip mobility...drastically. Kelly Starrett (Mobility WOD/ Becoming a Supple Leopard) has some awesome stuff out there. I've had bilateral hip scopes and my hip mobility is now better than most in their mid twenties.

Hip mobility will save your lower back....fact.

[Grumbs]

Hip mobility will save your lower back....fact.[/QUOTE]

I would love to hear more about this, if you wouldn't mind explaining a bit more.

[slidey]

From personal experience, no.

What you can do is a whole lot of exercises targeted at strengthening the glutes/hips/back, etc, i.e. not just the hips, but also the surrounding muscle groups.

[OtayBW]

So you're saying it isn't set in stone; but it may be set in bone ;) :banana:
Depends....:D

[LouDeeter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcBnjYv9gUY

Miranda's workouts, not just this one, will improve your flexibility. My wife and I have 20 of them saved from Public Broadcasting channel. The full workouts are 23 minutes long and make a heck of a lot of sense. This one is specifically for hips and a bit shorter.

[jamesau]

Certain yoga poses help my hip mobility a lot. These include: 'Thread the Needle Pose', 'Half Pigeon Pose', 'Low Lunge', and 'Butterfly Pose'.

When my hips aren't loose on the bike, my pedal stroke won't be fluid and it'll feel like I'm crashing the pedals around. This happens because some muscles/structures are asked to move beyond their working range given the position I've adopted on the bike (reach, drop, setback, etc). The pedals follow a constrained motion so something has to give to accommodate the inflexibility. For me, the knees or lower back can suffer if the hips are tight (tight because of slacking off on stretches or not warming up adequately).

[stephenmarklay]

Hip mobility will save your lower back....fact.

I would love to hear more about this, if you wouldn't mind explaining a bit more.[/QUOTE]

I think what he is getting at is if your hip mobility allows a good amount of hip “hinging” your back does not have to go into flexion (bent over).

The spine is not great with flexion under load. Your head is plenty load enough that when you muscles fatigue undue stress is taken on your back.

Hinging at the hips allows a more neutral spine saving the muscles of the back from fatigue and ultimately the spine from taking the load.

[stephenmarklay]

Flexibility is a good thing from a biomechanics perspective. Hamstrings and back flexibility in cycling is key. The good news is that it does not take a lot of work to increase your flexibility. Simple stretches will get you there. There is no set target, just a goal of getting as close as you reasonably can to your personal limits in flexibility. There is a wide range of potential flexibility among humans.


Can you go into a little more detail on that thought?

[fuzzalow]

You guys are talkin' right over my head. 'Cos I don't think you need any extraordinary flexibility beyond normal function to ride a drop bar sport bicycle.

I do not stretch. I have never stretched. In fairness, maybe I can just somehow ride EuroPro without a second thought on the basis of inherent natural range of motion. But c'mon, I don't think so as I am completely, boringly ordinary.

This entire hamstring thing with muscle limitation and handicap to riding I do not get at all. That little muscle overpowers an entire riding posture to throw everything outta whack? I won't argue with you so, yeah, sure, if you say so. My goodness, the hamstring Nautilus machine at the gym has these small plates. You perform a bent over row lifting a barbell with hundreds of pounds. What on earth does the hamstring have to do with hip angulation? The muscle functions to raise the ankle to the buttock. Huh?

[wallymann]

What on earth does the hamstring have to do with hip angulation? The muscle functions to raise the ankle to the buttock. Huh?

it's not a strength thing with the hamstring, it's a tightness thing that affects hip mobility and thus affects position on the bike.

hamstring tightness can limit your ability to bend forward, which limits your femur-torso angle, thus your ability to "get low" while at the same time extending your leg fully.

it may be a small muscle and not much strength (the latter is debateable), but the tension is real for many people.

can you touch your toes? i cannot by a long shot, with consistent stretching of the hamstring over the course of a year getting to the point of just brushing my fingertips against the tips of my toes is big progress for me. my friends dont stretch at all and can grab their feet easily.

[MattTuck]

it's not a strength thing with the hamstring, it's a tightness.

hamstring tightness can limit your ability to bend forward, limit your hip-torso angle, your ability to "get low" while at the same time extending your leg fully.

it may be a small muscle and not much strength (the latter is debateable), but the tension is real.

can you touch your toes? i cannot by a long shot, with consistent stretching of the hamstring over the course of a year i'm doing fantastically if get to the point of just brushing my fingertips against the tips of my toes. my friends dont stretch at all and can grab their feet easily.

How is your recovery going, btw? Are you back to 100%?

[wallymann]

How is your recovery going, btw? Are you back to 100%?

yep, pelvis healed up nicely. did lots of running miles in the fall/winter, then gym-work in winter thru january. focused on 1-leg squats and the like to address the strength and coordination deficits on the left leg.

bike-wise, i've been logging solid miles...the biggest mile-tallies for jan and feb since i can remember! of course i'm older and all the rest of it, but its nice to be getting some decent saddle time and building some condition.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12742621_10207789000794868_7260066796527499271_n.j pg?oh=66fb4608541157c5bbf476ca24c04027&oe=576CAA50
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/t31.0-8/12377697_10207339351873926_1191589876641957761_o.j pg
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/t31.0-8/12716256_10207750022220428_8013827014257313549_o.j pg

[Joachim]

can you touch your toes? i cannot by a long shot, with consistent stretching of the hamstring over the course of a year getting to the point of just brushing my fingertips against the tips of my toes is big progress for me. my friends dont stretch at all and can grab their feet easily.

And then there is the back vs hamstring flexibility when touching your toes. I can put my hands underneath my feet, but my hamstring are hopelessly tight. How is that? Flexible back.

[LouDeeter]

Cyclist have strong quads. Strong quads pull the hamstring tighter. A tight hamstring pulls on the lower back. Thus, tight hamstrings lead to lower back pain. If you stretch your back, hip flexors, hamstrings and quads, you'll relieve the tension on the lower back. This isn't rocket science and my background is rockets!!

[stephenmarklay]

Cyclist have strong quads. Strong quads pull the hamstring tighter. A tight hamstring pulls on the lower back. Thus, tight hamstrings lead to lower back pain. If you stretch your back, hip flexors, hamstrings and quads, you'll relieve the tension on the lower back. This isn't rocket science and my background is rockets!!


There is actually no evidence I am aware of that tight hamstrings lead to lower back pain. I would refer to Dr. Stuart McGill on this one. Hey I did some rocket science too!

[MattTuck]

And then there is the back vs hamstring flexibility when touching your toes. I can put my hands underneath my feet, but my hamstring are hopelessly tight. How is that? Flexible back.


That's a good point. If you're loose in one area, it can make up for tightness in another. If you can be on the saddle, and have a neutral pelvis, then you can achieve a lower position by flexing in the back. I think that this, perhaps more than hip range of motion, is visible as the camera pans up a line of riders. Many different levels of curve in the back.

https://cdn.tutsplus.com/vector/uploads/2014/02/The-lumbar-spine.jpg

[fuzzalow]

can you touch your toes? i cannot by a long shot,

I just tried it. No I cannot touch any lower than by about 6 inches above my feet.

http://www.eorthopod.com/sites/default/files/images/knee_hamstring_intro01.jpg

The attachment points of the hamstrings effect pelvis rotation but biomechanically it's limit it will be felt at the top 12o'clock of the pedal stroke. The amount of travel in the pelvic attachment point relative to increased angulation is very small. I don't get it but I don't have this malady that many seem to have. To me, blaming hamstrings defies common sense - how do you sit in a chair and bend & reach downwards to tie your shoe? Tight hamstrings means even this simple skeletal geometry cannot be done.

I just get on the bike, situated with my sitz bone points angled rearwards into the saddle, pivot the torso forwards along the toptube, dangle my arms from the shoulders, drop my hands into the drops - and go.

I disagree with using the bend in your back to ride a drop bar bike. Very bad thing to do. The amount of hip angle as seen in Matt's picture above with caption 'Lumbar + hips' is more than any EuroPro position will ever need. Riding a bike using a forced bend in the back will eventually destroy the spinal discs in the back. Don't do this.

[jimcav]

having had Achilles surgery last month (avoid this BTW) I think my various hamstring pulls over the years of running was the cause--left side, multiple instances of pulls or worse (nearly all were my fault trying to train through stuff--dumbest was running USMC marathon to qual for boston when I had a hammy pull going into it)
anyway, that tightness led to pressure and tension on my Achilles, so I ended up with tendonosis and haglunds deformity on the heel--which they had to address by very low tech bone chipping and rasping--I was awake to watch it in the mirror and it was surreal to see them using plier-like clippers to nip at the bone and then rasp at it.

anyway, I'd highly recommend assessing your muscles and tendons for tightness and stretch and roll/massage it for prevention.

[MattTuck]

I just tried it. No I cannot touch any lower than by about 6 inches above my feet.

http://www.eorthopod.com/sites/default/files/images/knee_hamstring_intro01.jpg

The attachment points of the hamstrings effect pelvis rotation but biomechanically it's limit it will be felt at the top 12o'clock of the pedal stroke. The amount of travel in the pelvic attachment point relative to increased angulation is very small. I don't get it but I don't have this malady that many seem to have. To me, blaming hamstrings defies common sense - how do you sit in a chair and bend & reach downwards to tie your shoe? Tight hamstrings means even this simple skeletal geometry cannot be done.

I just get on the bike, situated with my sitz bone points angled rearwards into the saddle, pivot the torso forwards along the toptube, dangle my arms from the shoulders, drop my hands into the drops - and go.

I disagree with using the bend in your back to ride a drop bar bike. Very bad thing to do. The amount of hip angle as seen in Matt's picture above with caption 'Lumbar + hips' is more than any EuroPro position will ever need. Riding a bike using a forced bend in the back will eventually destroy the spinal discs in the back. Don't do this.

I just found that picture to be informative from a theoretical sense, not a representation of actual angles that could be achieved.

If you lay on your back, keep your pelvis neutral, and one leg on the ground, how far can you bring the other leg (while keeping it straight) up toward your head? Clearly, if you bend your knee, you can bring the knee closer, but then straightening the leg is impossible. I think the lay person would say that is due to tight hamstrings. Is there another cause that you attribute that limit?

[fuzzalow]

I just found that picture to be informative from a theoretical sense, not a representation of actual angles that could be achieved.

C'mon Matt. We're both capable of the intellectual abstractions and extensions in discussion something without the exact visual representation of the motion and the angles, right?

If you lay on your back, keep your pelvis neutral, and one leg on the ground, how far can you bring the other leg (while keeping it straight) up toward your head? Clearly, if you bend your knee, you can bring the knee closer, but then straightening the leg is impossible. I think the lay person would say that is due to tight hamstrings. Is there another cause that you attribute that limit?

I don't know where you are going with this. There is no correlation between your example of motion and the pedal stroke. It is illustrative of nothing salient to what we are discussing as far as limits to tight hamstrings and the pedal stroke.

Unlike your suggested exercise, the knee is bent at the top of the cycling pedal stroke which is also the limit of greatest travel to either of the attachment points anchoring the hamstring. Why or how some people claim not to be capable of this movement, I have absolutely no idea. I know I can do it. I believe that biomechanically there is no reason most people can't do this. I hear lots of people blaming why they can't ride because of 'tight hammies' but, to me, the pieces don't add up.

I take this topic up as a point of conversation. Why anyone has maladies when they ride is not really my concern. But I do think that many are barking up the wrong tree when they think hamstrings are the reason why. The pieces don't add up and common myths repeated enough times become truths.

That's all for me on this one. See you at the next stop.

[BobO]

If you lay on your back, keep your pelvis neutral, and one leg on the ground, how far can you bring the other leg (while keeping it straight) up toward your head? Clearly, if you bend your knee, you can bring the knee closer, but then straightening the leg is impossible. I think the lay person would say that is due to tight hamstrings. Is there another cause that you attribute that limit?

I have a hamstring tightness issue on the left side. I suspect there is some form of defect that I was born with as I spent years trying to loosen it up and did not succeed in balancing it with the right side. In your example, I would see significantly more flexibility on the right side.

That said, this issue appears to have no impact at all on cycling. I agree with Fuzz's reasoning on this. At the point in the pedal stroke when the leg is fully extended the hip rotation is not in a position that exposes that lack of flexibility. When the hip is in that position the knee is flexed.

[MattTuck]

C'mon Matt. We're both capable of the intellectual abstractions and extensions in discussion something without the exact visual representation of the motion and the angles, right?



I don't know where you are going with this. There is no correlation between your example of motion and the pedal stroke. It is illustrative of nothing salient to what we are discussing as far as limits to tight hamstrings and the pedal stroke.

Unlike your suggested exercise, the knee is bent at the top of the cycling pedal stroke which is also the limit of greatest travel to either of the attachment points anchoring the hamstring. Why or how some people claim not to be capable of this movement, I have absolutely no idea. I know I can do it. I believe that biomechanically there is no reason most people can't do this. I hear lots of people blaming why they can't ride because of 'tight hammies' but, to me, the pieces don't add up.

I take this topic up as a point of conversation. Why anyone has maladies when they ride is not really my concern. But I do think that many are barking up the wrong tree when they think hamstrings are the reason why. The pieces don't add up and common myths repeated enough times become truths.

That's all for me on this one. See you at the next stop.

Went to a myofascial release massage therapist this week, boy oh boy, lots of the stuff we talked about dovetailed with this conversation and made me think more about what fuzz was trying to say.

Yes, I may be more prone to tight hamstrings (she worked on my hamstrings a bit) but we also worked a great deal on range of motion in the ankle (specifically dorsiflexion) and with the hip flexor known as the iliopsoas. That is one little bastard of a muscle. She did some release on it, working her fingers toward the inside of my pelvis, that was incredibly painful but really opened it up.

With the iliopsoas pulling the pelvis forward, it puts the hamstring in a compromised position.

I think fuzz's point about people incorrectly blaming their hamstrings as the culprit is a good one. Unless you are working mobility and strength on both sides of the ankle, knee and hip, it is too easy to blame the hamstring for problems, because the real cause may be more complex.

It is the squeaky scapegoat muscle. It speaks up, like a squeaky wheel, when other things are going on. It may be the canary in the coal mine, but people blame their problems on it, instead of seeing it for what it is, a signal that something else is amiss.

So, people lie on their back and stretch that poor little hammy out. and stretch it some more. and it doesn't seem to help because that isn't the actual problem. It is just the muscle that happens to feel the problem.

So, there you go. it's the squeaky wheel that get's the grease as people work on it when it bothers them, it's the canary in the coal mine letting you know something is wrong, it's the favored scapegoat, the one everyone knows about, and gets blamed for discomfort/lack of ideal position.

Enough metaphors?

[malcolm]

Hip mobility will save your lower back....fact.

I would love to hear more about this, if you wouldn't mind explaining a bit more.[/QUOTE]

Not to speak for the fire dude but many believe that's lots of non surgical back pain is secondary to short/tight hamstrings and tight hip flexors