More tubular gluing questions

[kgreene10]

I'm in the middle of my first gluing ever and started with new carbon rims and new Vittoria Evo CX tires.

So far, I have put two coats on the rims and two coats on the tires. I have only used 1.5 tubes of Mastik One (30g each). Is that too little? Should I put on a third layer thickly before the final layer for mounting?

Also, lacking a truing stand, I glued the rims with cardboard on the floor and a bit of cardboard stuck to the rim's ridge/edge. Should I remove this section with acetone and use new glue or simply glue over it? I feel like this was a silly error but I'm also unsure how to handle the rims while gluing to avoid it (short of buying a truing stand). Ideas?

Thanks.

[FlashUNC]

Thick layers are, in my experience, no bueno. Always thin coats. If that means a third go-around, so be it.

I sometimes go a bit heavier with the first layer on the tire, just because the base tape will suck up a fair bit of that. But several thin coats beats one thick one.

[Jad]

+1 on thin coats. As for the cardboard, I'd want that out of there--sounds like it could compromise the job.

I don't have a truing stand, but I used a couple of those screw-in vinyl-coated large hooks to hang the wheels from, which seemed to work well.

[redir]

I would remove the cardboard for sure.

As was mentioned on a new rim it's probably a good idea to layer it up a bit. I would think two coats is enough. Same with new tires the tape on some of them can soak that stuff right up.

The thing about this glue is that it is contact cement. So you really want an almost fresh layer on when you mount the tire. So my recommendation is to remove the cardboard then put a thin coat on the tire followed immediately by a think coat on the rim, wait about 15 minutes and then mount it. When you mount it pump up to like 60 PSI and put the wheels in your frame then sit on the bike and roll it out in a straight line. Then spin the tires and sight the tires like your are shooting a rifle to see if there is any wobble. Adjust as necessary.

Pump up to 110-20 PSI and let sit over night.

[chiasticon]

re: truing/gluing stand. if you don't have an old fork that you can clamp into a vice or something, one thing I've seen done is to clamp one side of the wheel into the outside of the drop-outs (front or rear of bike) using the quick release skewer. just be careful not to get glue all over your bike. this of course is much easier if you have a work stand to mount the bike in (or an old bike you can put upside down on the floor).

example: https://www.instagram.com/p/2CQNgoo9-3/

[coffeecake]

Do you have a stationary trainer? I clamp my wheels in my kurt kinetic when I need to glue up some tires.

I cover the resistance unit in a shopping bag so I don't get mastik One on it! :)

[Neil]

Get one of these folding work benches:

http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/2010/10/p_Workmate.jpg

Fold both the moving flaps into the "up" position, then move them in so that they are a width that accomodates the width of the wheel, and keeps it upright when placed between them.

The rim rests on the metal frame, the wooden flaps keep the wheel upright.

Rotate the wheel until the valve hole is at the top, then start painting the glue on with a plumbers brush, rotating the wheel as you go.

The rim will happily spin on the metal frame, and as the tyre bed is concave the glue (if you are neat) won't ever transfer to the frame.

I leave the rim in the work-mate overnight for the glue to dry, then a quick, thin coat, rotate until the valve hole is right at the top, tyre on, stretching it as you go, hold at the midpoint, spin the wheel top-for-bottom, pull the tub over the rest of the rim, then whip it out and spin it to check for straightness, straighten as required, etc etc.

[echappist]

I'm in the middle of my first gluing ever and started with new carbon rims and new Vittoria Evo CX tires.

So far, I have put two coats on the rims and two coats on the tires. I have only used 1.5 tubes of Mastik One (30g each). Is that too little? Should I put on a third layer thickly before the final layer for mounting?

Also, lacking a truing stand, I glued the rims with cardboard on the floor and a bit of cardboard stuck to the rim's ridge/edge. Should I remove this section with acetone and use new glue or simply glue over it? I feel like this was a silly error but I'm also unsure how to handle the rims while gluing to avoid it (short of buying a truing stand). Ideas?

Thanks.

that's way more than i'd ever use for a wheel (usually slightly more than a tube all said and done). Just make sure the edges are very well covered

[kgreene10]

I am a dunce to your common-sense sensibilities. Of course I could a) hang the wheel on a hook, b) mount it in a bike in my work stand, or c) put it on my stationary trainer! I've literally got wheel-holding apparatuses all over the house and I go and glue my wheels on top of a cardboard wheel box. Doh!

Okay, so consensus seems to be that I should remove the bits of glue that picked up slight amounts of cardboard. This isn't in the rim bed, mind you, just on the highest part of the lip in a couple of spots. I will do that with acetone and a rag.

After that, I think I would like to do another full coat on the rims and let that dry (that will be the third one). Then, tomorrow, do the final coat on the rim and mount the tires. That will make a total of two coats on the tires and four coats on the rims except for the spots where I had to remove and reapply some on the rims -- those will have two coats.

Any objections?

[FlashUNC]

I am a dunce to your common-sense sensibilities. Of course I could a) hang the wheel on a hook, b) mount it in a bike in my work stand, or c) put it on my stationary trainer! I've literally got wheel-holding apparatuses all over the house and I go and glue my wheels on top of a cardboard wheel box. Doh!

Okay, so consensus seems to be that I should remove the bits of glue that picked up slight amounts of cardboard. This isn't in the rim bed, mind you, just on the highest part of the lip in a couple of spots. I will do that with acetone and a rag.

After that, I think I would like to do another full coat on the rims and let that dry (that will be the third one). Then, tomorrow, do the final coat on the rim and mount the tires. That will make a total of two coats on the tires and four coats on the rims except for the spots where I had to remove and reapply some on the rims -- those will have two coats.

Any objections?

Fwiw, I always go with the tackier coat -- the fresher one -- on the tire right before mounting. But that's after a final thin coat on the rim and then the tire, let em sit for a bit to tack up, and then mount the tire. Get it all straight and no hops, pump up the pressure, let it sit 24 hours and ready to roll.

[JamesEsq]

I just glued some new Conti tubbies with Conti's own glue. I believe it recommends 1 layer on the rim, let sit a day, then one more layer on the rim. Mount the tires while the second layer is still tacky. Pump-up, let dry for a day.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm in the middle of my first gluing ever and started with new carbon rims and new Vittoria Evo CX tires.

So far, I have put two coats on the rims and two coats on the tires. I have only used 1.5 tubes of Mastik One (30g each). Is that too little? Should I put on a third layer thickly before the final layer for mounting?

Also, lacking a truing stand, I glued the rims with cardboard on the floor and a bit of cardboard stuck to the rim's ridge/edge. Should I remove this section with acetone and use new glue or simply glue over it? I feel like this was a silly error but I'm also unsure how to handle the rims while gluing to avoid it (short of buying a truing stand). Ideas?

Thanks.

Add a thin layer to rim, immediately mount tire, little air, center, roll on floor, let dry.

[ultraman6970]

I havent read what other people said ok? But anwering your 1st question about if you put too little glue??? the answer to that is... you put way too much glue to my taste.

WHat are you doing is the st thing guys do put like one glue tube per wheel, then they end up with glue even in their pubes at the time of mounting the tubular. One small tube should be enough easy for 2 sets of tubulars. Thats the reason you hear horror stories about how messy it is to mount them.

1 light coat in the tubular, then a regular coat in the rim, wait a few minutes and mount, done. what Ive noticed is that some rubber globes, those thin ones do not get stuck to the tubular glue, making your life easier.

Once mounted, put like 40 psi and try to get the tubular straight, this is the part you have to figure it out because everybody does it differently. Dont get surprised if there some sections in the tubulars that cant get straight, it is what it is.

Once done put 80 psi and roll the tubular against the floor a little bit, put all your weight, then let it sit over night. Done.

[carpediemracing]

I use about a tube of Mastik per wheel.

I use the tag that comes with the Evo tire as a spreader. It's plastic, sort of thick, and big enough so I don't get glue on my finger. Not sure if they still come with such a tag.

I'd scrape off the cardboard with a knife or something.

You should use a thin layer on the rim just before you put the tire on, esp if the other layers are pretty dry. You want some fresh (not-evaporated) solvent to "activate" the glue. This way the glue on the rim and glue on the tire become one. Also the thin layer of more liquid glue makes it easier to mount and adjust the tire.

Hope this helps.

[kgreene10]

I'd scrape off the cardboard with a knife or something.

Okay, so scraping perhaps rather than acetone. That should be easier to control. We are talking about very small bits, but I understand that the edge is the most important spot for tire adhesion to the rim, so sounds like it would be best to attend to it rather than glue over it. Lesson learned.

[Tim Porter]

Do you know about acid brushes at about 39 cents each at your hardware store? Trim the business end to the contour of the tip of your thumb if you're really OCD. If contoured like this they spread the glue nicely following the shape of the rim. No rubber gloves, etc. Just stick the wheel in the truing stand or other fork shaped object, lay a THIN bead about a foot long (skipping the spoke holes if they're there, of course) and draw it out with the acid brush. Takes about five minutes to do one coat on a rim, edge to edge, after a little practice. I buy a box every few years:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoguFJurqtvKZR8X-gl3abrMUqvQgW_4mcWwBkswhmLThj1acqog

PS Use the brushes on the tire as well . . . .

[kgreene10]

Yes, I'm using precisely those brushes.

[Tim Porter]

Cool, they were a game changer when I discovered them.

[Scuzzer]

A six pack, a box of brushes, a can of Vittoria tubular cement and a half dozen wheels and tires seems like party now that I'm an old man. Love gluing up some new tires.

[TimAZ]

I'll post my tips. I use the same acid brushes as pictured, but I cut off the first few mill with scissors. It stiffens up the bristles and hollows me to control keeping the glue on the rim bed. I also, use a can of Vittoria glue and funnel it in to a cheap 99 cent clear style ketchup bottle. I pick them up at Walmart. With the bottle I can lay out a smooth bead of glue half way around a rim with very little stringers to deal with. Makes gluing way faster as well. Just smooth it out with the brush and lay out another bead. I do the same for the tires.

:beer:
Tim

[lhuerta]

One small tube should be enough easy for 2 sets of tubulars.

1 light coat in the tubular, then a regular coat in the rim, wait a few minutes and mount, done.

Yikes!!! Respectfully this is dangerous advice.

A minimum of two coats on the rim is needed with at least one liberal coat on the tire.

[ultraman6970]

How thick are your regular coats? :) you have to start there :D Mines are really generous but not fanatical.

[kgreene10]

These are the kind of debates that scare the bejeezes out of newbies.

I took care of a few questionable spots on the rims and tires. Tomorrow, I'll put one final coat on the rim and mount. If all looks good on Friday, they will be raced hard on Saturday and Sunday.

[Satellite]

Or you could use one roll of Tubular tape and be done. Tape and orange seal were game changers for me. I have converted all my bikes over to Tubular now except my S&S travel bike because even during Ride the Rockies it was hard to find Tubular stuff when I blew/blew a tire up and I had a spare tire. I didn't bring a roll of tape and only one vender ended up having glue but he had to dig for it and I got lucky he found it.

[chiasticon]

These are the kind of debates that scare the bejeezes out of newbies.this.

[rwsaunders]

One of the best visual and written descriptions on the subject of gluing tires published by the illustrious framebuilder and XC fanatic Mike Zancanato...

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f7/how-gluing-cx-tubulars-not-tonight-honey-ive-got-mastik-1-headache-10244.html

[summilux]

^^That's the perfect link. I like the use of electrical tape to keep the rims clean. Also, the first few inches of the install are the most critical, you want to show the tubular who is boss. Stretch the tubular outward as much as you can before sticking the valve into the rim. Otherwise your tubular is going to be going bumpity bumpity.

[rwsaunders]

^^That's the perfect link. I like the use of electrical tape to keep the rims clean. Also, the first few inches of the install are the most critical, you want to show the tubular who is boss. Stretch the tubular outward as much as you can before sticking the valve into the rim. Otherwise your tubular is going to be going bumpity bumpity.

+1...ask me how I learned about the "bumpity factor".

[summilux]

+1...ask me how I learned about the "bumpity factor".

We've all been there.

Grasshopper, you can leave the temple when your tubulars are smooth on rollers.

[redir]

Yikes!!! Respectfully this is dangerous advice.

A minimum of two coats on the rim is needed with at least one liberal coat on the tire.

If anything we should teach tubular noobs (no insult intended the OP is new to this) to use to much glue rather than too little.

[denapista]

Using thick layers will do nothing but cause headaches when you puncture and need to remove the tire on the road.. I learned the hard way. I think with Tubular gluing, people overthink the process. If you can make it home with a spare tire rolled up with a coat of glue that's been sitting for months after you puncture, think about that.. You don't need multiple layers of glue to begin with. I punctured last month and had my spare Tufo s33 tire rolled up. Slapped it on and rode home like nothing ever happened. I even got a PR on one stupid section of my ride home, on a spare tire with and old layer of glue on it.

Key to tubular gluing, is thin coats and making sure you get the sides of the inner rim and not only the middle channel.

Last thing you want to do is over glue and when you puncture, rip the base tape when removing the tire. This happens from too much glue. In some cases you can rip up the Carbon from a Carbon hoop. Don't use too much glue!

[kgreene10]

Or you could use one roll of Tubular tape and be done.

I'm gluing now because three attempts with Effeto Mariposa's Carogna tape failed and failed pretty spectacularly. I chronicled much of it in another thread. The company owner and it's US distributor were very responsive and I have been thrilled with their customer service; however, the product simply did not work. It peeled away quite easily from both the tire and the rim. I am 110% certain that I followed the instructions perfectly on each of the three attempts. In fact, the third install was done by the head wrench at an LBS who is a former pro-team wrench and I watched him do precisely what I had done the prior two times. Many people have reported great success with the product, so it could be that it doesn't work well with Bontrager Aeolus wheels or with Vittoria Evo CXIII tires or perhaps there was a bad batch or a batch that went bad in transport or storage, or who knows what. Anyway, I'm now on the glue.

[thwart]

Anyway, I'm now on the glue.

Old Spud says Panaracer is best for that effect... :D

[Jad]

One of the best visual and written descriptions on the subject of gluing tires published by the illustrious framebuilder and XC fanatic Mike Zancanato...

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f7/how-gluing-cx-tubulars-not-tonight-honey-ive-got-mastik-1-headache-10244.html

Right--and a great reference. But there have gotta be differences in needs between CX tubulars and road--cornering on off-camber grass and dirt w/ 20psi adds challenges to a glue job that road racing may not present!

[chiasticon]

Right--and a great reference. But there have gotta be differences in needs between CX tubulars and road--cornering on off-camber grass and dirt w/ 20psi adds challenges to a glue job that road racing may not present!agreed. that's not really the best reference for road tub gluing. other than to say "it could be much worse! you could have to do all this!" however, if you just leave off the tape step and maybe use one less layer of glue per surface, it's basically the same. and there's good tips to be had within it and the comments.

[11.4]

I'd chime in from a slightly different perspective.

First, while excessive glue doesn't do anything, it isn't fair to compare your gluing job to getting home on a spare tire. A tire will stay on surprisingly well with nothing holding it at all, but the threshold at which it'll come off is significantly reduced, plus if it goes flat, it doesn't hold at all. People always forget to consider what happens to a bad glue job if you flat and you're at speed, turning, descending, whatever.

My recommendation is always to look at the tire and the rim and give it the glue it needs. For a rim, that's typically two very thin coats, as thin as you can brush them without leaving gaps. For a tire, that's enough that the last coat isn't absorbed right into the base tape, leaving the tire basically without a good adhesive base on the surface. For most tires, the first coat pretty much gets absorbed (if it's piled on top, it was probably too heavy to begin with, which doesn't count). The second coat leaves some tackiness on the surface, but only a small percentage of the base tape's surface area is actually capable of bonding to the rim -- the uppermost edges of the threads in the fabric. And you want more of the tape bonding than just that 20-35%. The next coat should fill, at least to a significant degree, the gaps between the threads. That's still a thin coat.

When you have rim and tire prepped like that, and both are dry enough that your fingernail can't gouge or move any of the glue (which sometimes can be 24 hours, sometimes 2 hours -- again, look at the glue job, not at some blind recommendation on the internet), one fresh thin coat and then immediately mount the tire. The fresh coat does two things. It actually lets you reposition the tire (if you do it quickly) and it adds to the gluing mechanism of the rim cement. Let me explain the latter: Rim cement works by electrostatic attraction -- an attraction between the components on the two surfaces. It doesn't need a rough surface or grip to work, and in fact works best when the two surfaces are absolutely smooth and co-planar and extremely close together. This is how it sticks so well to an alloy rim (and you don't need to score or gouge an alloy rim to make it work). But it also has a fairly high tensile strength, and adding that last wet coat means that you not only have two surfaces bonding electrostatically, but both surfaces will dissolve slightly and bond in a merged joint that is at least as strong as the tensile strength of the glue itself. That makes for a joint that is strong, that you can pull off when you need, and also one that still has electrostatic properties so if the glue pulls loose (say, on a tight descending turn at speed), it'll be able to reattach immediately without allowing the tire to roll off.

Now that's really all there is to gluing. It's more about using your eyes to see how the tire and rim are accepting glue. If you put on an extra thin coat, does it hurt anything? Not at all. If you go one coat too few? The bond may not be as strong but may still be considerable and enough to do the job -- that depends on how aggressively you ride and the conditions you face.

It also has a bit to do with rim and tire profiles. If your rim and your tire don't have the same profile, your tire will sit on the edges of the rim, or sit only in the middle of the rim. In either case, gluing is impaired. Your only choice then, short of changing equipment, is to build up extra rim cement. It isn't perfect, but it's better than letting water and dirt get into the gap and having the joint deteriorate rapidly. A lot has been written about this in other threads.

You can remove a tire safely without tearing the base tape, regardless of how much glue is involved, if you just GENTLY work a screwdriver blade under the tire and out the other side. Do this at a ferrule so you aren't really having to dig as much through the rim cement. And do it gently so you don't cut into the base tape. Once the screwdriver is through, rock it sideways slightly to lever the tape loose, and then roll it a couple inches and repeat. Once you are about a third of the way around the rim, you can pull the tire off and just pull the tire straight away from the rim bed. I've done this literally thousands of times and never had a damaged tire. And that's doing it mostly with ultralight and ultra fragile track tires that were glued to hell and back to begin with. If you damage a tire this way, you were just being too ham handed.

It's all been said before, but basically it just needs a little bit of common sense and paying attention to what you're doing. Watch a European pro team mechanic gluing tires and after one or more glue coat has gone on a tire, he'll check each one he grabs for the next coat and will toss some onto a finished pile and give others an extra coat. He's just paying attention. With some experience you learn how to put just enough glue on so you may only need one coat and still get a great adhesive bond.

If you watch the average Joe on your club ride doing a glue job, the chances are she/he has a glue job in pretty close correlation to how fast and aggressive she/he rides. People who basically ride upright at 15-20 mph, aren't racing through turns, and aren't doing crazy hairpin descents can go a lifetime without needing much of a glue job. They aren't challenging the glue job to do much. But if you race crits a lot and you really don't want to roll a tire, or if you have a bad tire to rim match (most cross riders here), you really want to do it better. So if someone says how to do a glue job, check out how they ride. If you want to learn from someone, pick someone who can take the fastest line through corners in crits every week and never rolls a tire. It doesn't matter whether they do one coat or six -- they know how to keep the tire on the rim, and that's really all that matters.

[kgreene10]

...basically it just needs a little bit of common sense...

I'm doomed.

[11.4]

I'm doomed.

I've had that said of me so many times and yet, here I am. Just don't take what anyone says too seriously. Think out the problem and you'll figure out the issues just fine. It's a learning experience anyway.

[redir]

Don't use too much glue!

It's much better then using too little.

[etu]

I'd chime in from a slightly different perspective.

First, while excessive glue doesn't do anything, it isn't fair to compare your gluing job to getting home on a spare tire. A tire will stay on surprisingly well with nothing holding it at all, but the threshold at which it'll come off is significantly reduced, plus if it goes flat, it doesn't hold at all. People always forget to consider what happens to a bad glue job if you flat and you're at speed, turning, descending, whatever.

My recommendation is always to look at the tire and the rim and give it the glue it needs. For a rim, that's typically two very thin coats, as thin as you can brush them without leaving gaps. For a tire, that's enough that the last coat isn't absorbed right into the base tape, leaving the tire basically without a good adhesive base on the surface. For most tires, the first coat pretty much gets absorbed (if it's piled on top, it was probably too heavy to begin with, which doesn't count). The second coat leaves some tackiness on the surface, but only a small percentage of the base tape's surface area is actually capable of bonding to the rim -- the uppermost edges of the threads in the fabric. And you want more of the tape bonding than just that 20-35%. The next coat should fill, at least to a significant degree, the gaps between the threads. That's still a thin coat.

When you have rim and tire prepped like that, and both are dry enough that your fingernail can't gouge or move any of the glue (which sometimes can be 24 hours, sometimes 2 hours -- again, look at the glue job, not at some blind recommendation on the internet), one fresh thin coat and then immediately mount the tire. The fresh coat does two things. It actually lets you reposition the tire (if you do it quickly) and it adds to the gluing mechanism of the rim cement. Let me explain the latter: Rim cement works by electrostatic attraction -- an attraction between the components on the two surfaces. It doesn't need a rough surface or grip to work, and in fact works best when the two surfaces are absolutely smooth and co-planar and extremely close together. This is how it sticks so well to an alloy rim (and you don't need to score or gouge an alloy rim to make it work). But it also has a fairly high tensile strength, and adding that last wet coat means that you not only have two surfaces bonding electrostatically, but both surfaces will dissolve slightly and bond in a merged joint that is at least as strong as the tensile strength of the glue itself. That makes for a joint that is strong, that you can pull off when you need, and also one that still has electrostatic properties so if the glue pulls loose (say, on a tight descending turn at speed), it'll be able to reattach immediately without allowing the tire to roll off.

Now that's really all there is to gluing. It's more about using your eyes to see how the tire and rim are accepting glue. If you put on an extra thin coat, does it hurt anything? Not at all. If you go one coat too few? The bond may not be as strong but may still be considerable and enough to do the job -- that depends on how aggressively you ride and the conditions you face.

It also has a bit to do with rim and tire profiles. If your rim and your tire don't have the same profile, your tire will sit on the edges of the rim, or sit only in the middle of the rim. In either case, gluing is impaired. Your only choice then, short of changing equipment, is to build up extra rim cement. It isn't perfect, but it's better than letting water and dirt get into the gap and having the joint deteriorate rapidly. A lot has been written about this in other threads.

You can remove a tire safely without tearing the base tape, regardless of how much glue is involved, if you just GENTLY work a screwdriver blade under the tire and out the other side. Do this at a ferrule so you aren't really having to dig as much through the rim cement. And do it gently so you don't cut into the base tape. Once the screwdriver is through, rock it sideways slightly to lever the tape loose, and then roll it a couple inches and repeat. Once you are about a third of the way around the rim, you can pull the tire off and just pull the tire straight away from the rim bed. I've done this literally thousands of times and never had a damaged tire. And that's doing it mostly with ultralight and ultra fragile track tires that were glued to hell and back to begin with. If you damage a tire this way, you were just being too ham handed.

It's all been said before, but basically it just needs a little bit of common sense and paying attention to what you're doing. Watch a European pro team mechanic gluing tires and after one or more glue coat has gone on a tire, he'll check each one he grabs for the next coat and will toss some onto a finished pile and give others an extra coat. He's just paying attention. With some experience you learn how to put just enough glue on so you may only need one coat and still get a great adhesive bond.

If you watch the average Joe on your club ride doing a glue job, the chances are she/he has a glue job in pretty close correlation to how fast and aggressive she/he rides. People who basically ride upright at 15-20 mph, aren't racing through turns, and aren't doing crazy hairpin descents can go a lifetime without needing much of a glue job. They aren't challenging the glue job to do much. But if you race crits a lot and you really don't want to roll a tire, or if you have a bad tire to rim match (most cross riders here), you really want to do it better. So if someone says how to do a glue job, check out how they ride. If you want to learn from someone, pick someone who can take the fastest line through corners in crits every week and never rolls a tire. It doesn't matter whether they do one coat or six -- they know how to keep the tire on the rim, and that's really all that matters.

thank you for this very insightful post

[FlashUNC]

Just don't use a screwdriver, or a metal tire lever, on carbon.

[Satellite]

Just don't use a screwdriver, or a metal tire lever, on carbon.

Right very important point (pun intended). I found that just continued rocking the tire back and forth will eventually get the tire loose. Some left me crying with sore thumbs that's for sure.

[wgp]

I'd chime in from a slightly different perspective.

First, while excessive glue doesn't do anything, it isn't fair to compare your gluing job to getting home on a spare tire. A tire will stay on surprisingly well with nothing holding it at all, but the threshold at which it'll come off is significantly reduced, plus if it goes flat, it doesn't hold at all. People always forget to consider what happens to a bad glue job if you flat and you're at speed, turning, descending, whatever.

My recommendation is always to look at the tire and the rim and give it the glue it needs. For a rim, that's typically two very thin coats, as thin as you can brush them without leaving gaps. For a tire, that's enough that the last coat isn't absorbed right into the base tape, leaving the tire basically without a good adhesive base on the surface. For most tires, the first coat pretty much gets absorbed (if it's piled on top, it was probably too heavy to begin with, which doesn't count). The second coat leaves some tackiness on the surface, but only a small percentage of the base tape's surface area is actually capable of bonding to the rim -- the uppermost edges of the threads in the fabric. And you want more of the tape bonding than just that 20-35%. The next coat should fill, at least to a significant degree, the gaps between the threads. That's still a thin coat.

When you have rim and tire prepped like that, and both are dry enough that your fingernail can't gouge or move any of the glue (which sometimes can be 24 hours, sometimes 2 hours -- again, look at the glue job, not at some blind recommendation on the internet), one fresh thin coat and then immediately mount the tire. The fresh coat does two things. It actually lets you reposition the tire (if you do it quickly) and it adds to the gluing mechanism of the rim cement. Let me explain the latter: Rim cement works by electrostatic attraction -- an attraction between the components on the two surfaces. It doesn't need a rough surface or grip to work, and in fact works best when the two surfaces are absolutely smooth and co-planar and extremely close together. This is how it sticks so well to an alloy rim (and you don't need to score or gouge an alloy rim to make it work). But it also has a fairly high tensile strength, and adding that last wet coat means that you not only have two surfaces bonding electrostatically, but both surfaces will dissolve slightly and bond in a merged joint that is at least as strong as the tensile strength of the glue itself. That makes for a joint that is strong, that you can pull off when you need, and also one that still has electrostatic properties so if the glue pulls loose (say, on a tight descending turn at speed), it'll be able to reattach immediately without allowing the tire to roll off.

Now that's really all there is to gluing. It's more about using your eyes to see how the tire and rim are accepting glue. If you put on an extra thin coat, does it hurt anything? Not at all. If you go one coat too few? The bond may not be as strong but may still be considerable and enough to do the job -- that depends on how aggressively you ride and the conditions you face.

It also has a bit to do with rim and tire profiles. If your rim and your tire don't have the same profile, your tire will sit on the edges of the rim, or sit only in the middle of the rim. In either case, gluing is impaired. Your only choice then, short of changing equipment, is to build up extra rim cement. It isn't perfect, but it's better than letting water and dirt get into the gap and having the joint deteriorate rapidly. A lot has been written about this in other threads.

You can remove a tire safely without tearing the base tape, regardless of how much glue is involved, if you just GENTLY work a screwdriver blade under the tire and out the other side. Do this at a ferrule so you aren't really having to dig as much through the rim cement. And do it gently so you don't cut into the base tape. Once the screwdriver is through, rock it sideways slightly to lever the tape loose, and then roll it a couple inches and repeat. Once you are about a third of the way around the rim, you can pull the tire off and just pull the tire straight away from the rim bed. I've done this literally thousands of times and never had a damaged tire. And that's doing it mostly with ultralight and ultra fragile track tires that were glued to hell and back to begin with. If you damage a tire this way, you were just being too ham handed.

It's all been said before, but basically it just needs a little bit of common sense and paying attention to what you're doing. Watch a European pro team mechanic gluing tires and after one or more glue coat has gone on a tire, he'll check each one he grabs for the next coat and will toss some onto a finished pile and give others an extra coat. He's just paying attention. With some experience you learn how to put just enough glue on so you may only need one coat and still get a great adhesive bond.

If you watch the average Joe on your club ride doing a glue job, the chances are she/he has a glue job in pretty close correlation to how fast and aggressive she/he rides. People who basically ride upright at 15-20 mph, aren't racing through turns, and aren't doing crazy hairpin descents can go a lifetime without needing much of a glue job. They aren't challenging the glue job to do much. But if you race crits a lot and you really don't want to roll a tire, or if you have a bad tire to rim match (most cross riders here), you really want to do it better. So if someone says how to do a glue job, check out how they ride. If you want to learn from someone, pick someone who can take the fastest line through corners in crits every week and never rolls a tire. It doesn't matter whether they do one coat or six -- they know how to keep the tire on the rim, and that's really all that matters.

Adding my thanks too - beautiful delineation of the important pieces of a glue job!

[11.4]

I always use a screwdriver and find the blade, used carefully, works just fine without damaging anything. Using something bulky like a tire iron just creates other problems for me. But I did soften the edges on the screwdriver, it has a round shaft, and frankly one should be able to loosen the tire in one small spot so you aren't digging through rim cement with the screwdriver. I've tried lots of tools and it just comes down to being careful with any of them. The only rim I've ever damaged in my life while changing tires was an Enve 2.68 that I dented on the edge of the rim bed using a tire lever. Like everything with tubulars, be careful and show common sense. Different strokes for different folks.

[AngryScientist]

i pull em off with my teeth.

[rwsaunders]

i pull em off with my teeth.

Chuck Norris just stares at a glued tubular and it removes itself.

[11.4]

i pull em off with my teeth.

Moderators are always so oral.

Of course AS now has complete dentures because he also glues his tires really well. Not smart enough to stop using his teeth before they were all embedded in rim cement, but that's another story.

[bthornt]

This is from the bike tires direct webpage:

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/articlewindow?a=557&h=1495

[kgreene10]

Well, they are on. No glue at all on the brake tracks but too many errant brush strokes got glue on the side of the tires. I assume that's not a functional problem but makes me look very amateur. I would say that the installation could be both truer and rounder. It's not bad but it isn't as good as I would like. I plan to squirt some sealant in there and race them tomorrow.

The one thing that does bother me a bit is that I took great care to apply glue to the high point on each side of the rim bed -- the top of the ridge, if you will. Yet the base tape doesn't make contact there. Making that happen would have required building up a lot of glue. I don't know if it is necessary. I'll try to grab a grizzled looking racer before the start tomorrow and have him inspect my work.

[oldpotatoe]

This is from the bike tires direct webpage:

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/articlewindow?a=557&h=1495

Once again, 'hang to dry separately overnight'-balderdash. It's just contact cement. NO need to make a 30-40 minute job last 2-3 days..please.

50 posts on something really simple. Not a black art. Many good ways to do it. Most all work great. Find one and do that.

-out

[11.4]

The one thing that does bother me a bit is that I took great care to apply glue to the high point on each side of the rim bed -- the top of the ridge, if you will. Yet the base tape doesn't make contact there. Making that happen would have required building up a lot of glue. I don't know if it is necessary. I'll try to grab a grizzled looking racer before the start tomorrow and have him inspect my work.

Bad profile match between rim bed and tire?

[Dead Man]

Well, they are on. No glue at all on the brake tracks but too many errant brush strokes got glue on the side of the tires. I assume that's not a functional problem but makes me look very amateur. I would say that the installation could be both truer and rounder. It's not bad but it isn't as good as I would like. I plan to squirt some sealant in there and race them tomorrow.

Hey you know what? The more tubulars I glue on, the sloppier I get about glue on the sidewalls. I don't even care, since I'm usually just trying to slam the job out at 10pm in time for a 6am ride sorta thing. I'm pretty sure nobody's gonna critique your gluing skill based on that. Dont sweat it!


The one thing that does bother me a bit is that I took great care to apply glue to the high point on each side of the rim bed -- the top of the ridge, if you will. Yet the base tape doesn't make contact there. Making that happen would have required building up a lot of glue. I don't know if it is necessary. I'll try to grab a grizzled looking racer before the start tomorrow and have him inspect my work.

I have started using the broom-handle technique for gluing round-profile tubular rims... especially since the Vittorias I've been using for the last couple years have a V-shaped base. once you get the tire seated and straightened, deflate and roll it along a skinny broom handle to push the base against the rim bed. I'll rock it back and forth and even twist a little, on rims with in-bed eyelets.. just to ensure everything makes contact and adheres. Then I let it set up for 15-20 minutes before I reinflate for curing.