Steel , its the real deal , Kirk , Zank and Sachs owners ?

[Smiley]

I have read now enough great reviews on custom steel bikes PLUS I can add my own 2 cents about returning to the magic of riding a steel frame that was dialed in for my current position and use of new 10 speed brifters. All I can say is steel is really good stuff and if you all stop and think about it NOBODY ever complained about the ride of steel, the weight maybe but never the ride.
I find that with my Uniscasi Steel Rapid Tour frame which I deliberately designed around a lower BB , kicked out trail , longer chain stays and YES Wider tire clearances feels so much sure footed and just an all around joy to ride. So Kirk owners , Zank owners and Sachs owners and let me add to this list Serotta Nobioum steel owners ...... enjoy the rides of your finely crafted steel frames. Steel never died its just got forgot with the new bike materials available today.

[cydewaze]

Don't hold back Smiley, tell us how you really feel, lol.

[saab2000]

The only people who really complain about the weight of steel are those who don't own steel bikes or are new to cycling.

There is probably about a 1 lb penalty for a steel frame and 1.5 if you go with a steel fork too. The reason steel bike tend to be a bit heavier is that most people who own them don't go weightweenie on them.

[Redturbo]

I think if all those guys were building bikes with other materials they would be just as good ;)

turbo

[dirtdigger88]

agreed- and in a couple of weeks I can add some additional comments about the quilaty of a Serotta steel ride- :banana:

Jason

[kong79]

Right On Smiley. My one and only roadie is an early 90's Serotta Nova Special X, made with Columbus SLX and a Columbus CroMoly fork. I keep looking at all the new Carpet Fiber bikes and lust sets in and I think - "I gotta have one of them." But then I go for a ride, and the road dissappears under my wheels, and all is right with the world, and I think that there can't be anything better than this. Maybe there is, but not for me.

[Roy E. Munson]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

[JasonF]

The reason steel bike tend to be a bit heavier is that most people who own them don't go weightweenie on them.

I agree 100%, at least as it pertains to my Sachs. I once set up a spreadsheet listing the weight differential between my bike with Chorus (its current set up) and Record. I think the bottom line figure came to just under a pound. Not worth it to me.

[dirtdigger88]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

True- but I have learned there is so much more to cycling than racing

Jason

[Tailwinds]

True- but I have learned there is so much more to cycling than racing

Jason

I agree -- there is A LOT more to cycling than racing! :D

And there is more to bicycles than carbon, Al, and Ti. Vive la difference!

Oh, and I might be reporting on the ride of an old Masi later.

[Fat Robert]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.


the fat one is looking at something that is steel and a 100% race bike...OS columbus spirit tubes, OS stays, some serious round sheeyat...and like a marcelo, it's a go-fast race bike...local uscf racers are turned off to steel because there are not a lot of affordable good steel race bikes...face it, a CDA or an emma ain't cheap...and what the 3 and 2 dudes get on shop deals is usually what the shop wants to sell...which is AL or carbon...

anyway

is all about the saddle. turbos rule. makes any bike comfortable.

[saab2000]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

Most racers I know nowadays have bikes which are through their sponsors and teams and they get a good deal on them. It is marketing. Nothing wrong with that or the bikes they ride at all. But most of them I know would have no problem riding steel if it were the same deal. But most of them ride what is cheap and at the club I am active with here in the Twin Cities it is usually a Bianchi San Lorenzo that they ride for the team.

[dirtdigger88]

On a ride just last week I hooked up with one of the local fast guys- on his brand new team bike- Six13 full dura ace no less

as we rode the questions started-

is that steel- thats no good for racin'-

why ya got fenders on there- doesnt that make the bike weigh a lot-

why ya do your shifting down there- if you were racing it would be better up here-

dont those fat tires slow you down-

but as we rode- the questions turned to more interest about the bike- why- because we were both going hard and HIS carbon/al bike wasnt pulling away from my old steel bike- :confused:

by the end of the ride I had given him dave's web address because he wanted to look into one for himself-

hmmm . . . :D

Jason

[Ginger]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

In a way, you're right, even if you put it in a way that could put people in a bucket. You always hear: Don't race what you don't want to crash.

If I were crit racing I'd probably be riding some ill-fitting, stupid-light aluminum rocket that I didn't have in anything more than money.

But then again, maybe not. :banana:

[dbrk]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

I think this is most certainly true and that the slant to carbon and aluminum has also taken hold in the olderslower crowd, not just racers. It's what's in the shops. It's new. Folks seem to be happy riding such bikes.

But as I see it, why should I care what other people like so long as I know myself? It's true that a fun bicycle in any style can be made of any material but there are limitations I associate with other-than-steel (fewer fork options, particularly) and as much as I like the feel of many titanium bikes, steel still meets all of my preferences for ride, design, etc.

dbrk

[Big Dan]

Right on Captain..... :D
DD, I'm pretty sure you are going to like the CSi...

:bike:

[93legendti]

I have read now enough great reviews on custom steel bikes PLUS I can add my own 2 cents about returning to the magic of riding a steel frame that was dialed in for my current position and use of new 10 speed brifters. All I can say is steel is really good stuff and if you all stop and think about it NOBODY ever complained about the ride of steel, the weight maybe but never the ride.
I find that with my Uniscasi Steel Rapid Tour frame which I deliberately designed around a lower BB , kicked out trail , longer chain stays and YES Wider tire clearances feels so much sure footed and just an all around joy to ride. So Kirk owners , Zank owners and Sachs owners and let me add to this list Serotta Nobioum steel owners ...... enjoy the rides of your finely crafted steel frames. Steel never died its just got forgot with the new bike materials available today.

I wish I could agree 100% with you this time, as I usually agree with your posts. I have a 2004 CDA that I have been riding the last 2 weeks, alternating (sometimes the same day) with my Legend and 2 Ottrotts (one ST, one ti rear trinagle). The CDA is the fastest of the 4 bikes (confimed with hr moniter and cycle computer over the same loops), but also, by far, the harshest--as I sit here waiting for my 2nd massage in 2 days because my back is so stiff I can barely move. The CDA just beat me up too much, the last ride being a very fast 45 mile club ride.

The contact points of the 4 bikes are the same, as are the saddles, posts, stems, hbs (width and make), sti shifters, bar tape, cranks, pedals, tires, air pressure and the wheels (I used the same 2 sets to keep the comparison as close as possible). I started with the '04 Mavic K's on my '02 Ottrott, which feel just right on the Ottrott--no go on the CDA. I switched to my Speeddreams--better, but still harsh on the CDA. On Sunday I rode the same loop back-to-back with my '05 Ottrott and CDA, switching the wheels to keep it as head to head as possible. Same result. The Ottrott was much more comfortable and ate up the bumps. Now, I am using 22c Veloflex Paves clinchers, pumped to 95 psi. Sure I could ride/test the CDA with wider tires--but that would change an important variable.

I went so far as to call Serotta and ask if my CDA could be made less stiff/more comfortable, but keep the same performance. I was told that the tubeset on my CDA was the standard CDA tubeset; that there was no way the CDA could be made as comfortable as a Legend or an Ottrott AND keep the same performance and that Serotta could make the CDA in a RT geometry/lengthen the wheelbase and that would help for comfort, but performance might suffer.

So while I absolutely love the performance of my CDA for the flats, climbing, turning, etc. I will take ti or ti/carbon every time for rides lasting over an hour.

[Too Tall]

Steel it like you ride.

Wise words Smiles

[dbrk]

snip...I Now, I am using 22c Veloflex Paves clinchers, pumped to 95 psi. Sure I could ride/test the CDA with wider tires--but that would change an important variable....snip


I think this is the crucial sentence...imhoatmoyo, the more tire under you the more comfortable the ride. Tires (and wheels) make so much more difference than frame material I think it's not even a close comparison.

Ride what you like!

dbrk

[yim]

The only people who really complain about the weight of steel are those who don't own steel bikes or are new to cycling.

There is probably about a 1 lb penalty for a steel frame and 1.5 if you go with a steel fork too. The reason steel bike tend to be a bit heavier is that most people who own them don't go weightweenie on them.

My Sachs with record carbon and eurus wheels is lighter than my former C40 with steel fork and DA9 nearly 1/2 pound.

With the UCI limitation, you cannot race a 14.8 pounds bike.

[93legendti]

I think this is the crucial sentence...imhoatmoyo, the more tire under you the more comfortable the ride. Tires (and wheels) make so much more difference than frame material I think it's not even a close comparison.

Ride what you like!

dbrk

The point of my post was that, in my experience, the difference between my Serotta steel bike and Serotta ti and ti/carbon bikes, using the same wheels and tires, was so large that it was not even a close comparison. FOR ME, the difference was the frame material. This was confirmed by my talk with Steve at Serotta, because I thought about ordering a new CDA. Now, I could compare my CDA with the most comfortable tires and wheels to my Serotta ti and ti/carbon bikes (as they are built now), but what would be the point? It would not be a valid, apples to apples, comparison and my Serotta ti and ti/carbon bikes are as comfortable as I need for short, slow, fast and/or long rides.

[William]

On a ride just last week I hooked up with one of the local fast guys- on his brand new team bike- Six13 full dura ace no less

as we rode the questions started-

is that steel- thats no good for racin'-

why ya got fenders on there- doesnt that make the bike weigh a lot-

why ya do your shifting down there- if you were racing it would be better up here-

dont those fat tires slow you down-

but as we rode- the questions turned to more interest about the bike- why- because we were both going hard and HIS carbon/al bike wasnt pulling away from my old steel bike- :confused:

by the end of the ride I had given him dave's web address because he wanted to look into one for himself-

hmmm . . . :D

Jason

It's funny, you hear all kinds of stupid comments when you get into the group rides:

"is that a steel bike, oh it's gotta be slow"

"You couldn't race that"

"It must weigh a ton"

"It'll really slow you down on the hills".

And as DD said, when they have trouble even staying on your wheel, then the attitude starts changing.

Beungood on a recent group ride had a guy putting down his steel Spectrum Beam bike.
"Oh, that's for people with bad backs". "You couldn't race that". :rolleyes: I wonder what he was thinking when Beungood and another guy rode the whole group off their wheel? ;)


William

[FlaRider]

I think the posts above illustrate the notion that each frame material, depending on choice of tubing, geometry etc., can be tuned to ride as comfortably or as harshly as you want.

Recently, I have been training on two all-out "race" bikes, each with a power meter - an Ottrott ST and a Time VXRS. Each of them is very responsive to pedal input (ie, is "stiff") and handles superbly but the compromise is a somewhat punishing ride, especially when travelling over bumps and bad pavement.

This morning, I rode easy on the new (and very beautiful) lugged steel bike that Peter Weigle built for me. I asked him for a "race bike" and gave him the geometry of my Time to give him a sense of the bike I was used to riding. The ride on the Weigle underscored for me the "sweetness" of the ride of fine steel. It was much more comfortable than either my Time or my Ottrott and gave up very little in terms of performance. I did feel the weight penalty when climbing but overall that was not a big deal. Steel is real :banana: :banana:

[obtuse]

redux redux redux.....

it's not about the material it's about the design.

obtuse

[ben rabin]

For what its worth, I regularly ride one of three road bikes, a Trek 5500 OCLV carbon, with carbon fork; a custom Seven Cycles Odonada (titanium and carbon fiber frame with carbon fork) and a custom Serotta CSI steel frame with steel fork. Granted the Serotta has a custom wheelset with Phil Wood hubs and tubular tires, while the others have lighter dura ace hubs with clinchers, but without a trace of doubt, the most comfortable ride is the steel on steel CSI.

I'm glad we had this little talk. We shoud do it again some time soon.

[zap]

Sorry, I didn't like the ride of the steel Serotta's that I tested with my wheels.

However, having ridden the CSI and Atlanta, I can understand why some have the need to go with wider tires (other than really bad roads) at lower pressure. But there are products out there that don't ride like crap with 21-23c tires pumped to 120psi

That being said, there are several ti frames that don't ride that well either. Some carbon composite frames are also too stiff, but still ride differently from steel.

Zip on the other hand just loves the ride and handling of her CSI.

I doubt I would ever purchase a steel frame (single) as a perfomance machine, but would consider one as a beauty queen as there are some great craftsmen out there producing works of art.

But really, everyone should ride what they like.

[coylifut]

It's funny, you hear all kinds of stupid comments when you get into the group rides:

"is that a steel bike, oh it's gotta be slow"

"You couldn't race that"

"It must weigh a ton"

"It'll really slow you down on the hills".



William


people actually say that kind of stuff. all the fast guys around here know, at best, the bike only adds performance at the margin.

[TimD]

Smiely, you forgot Pegoretti, but we won't hold it against you!

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.

You'd probably also find the racers are half as old, weigh 30% less, and have much smaller incomes... ;)

[Roy E. Munson]

but I have learned there is so much more to cycling than racing

Cycling is what each individual gets out of it. If it's racing - great. If it's touring - great. If it's the companionship - great. If it's being online talking about it - great. yadda yadda yadda

[Fat Robert]

yo adam

if you're beat up from riding a steel bike, you need more core conditioning

(sorry if you have disk issues or something I dunno about)

[93legendti]

yo adam

if you're beat up from riding a steel bike, you need more core conditioning

(sorry if you have disk issues or something I dunno about)

Rob, been doing my core stuff 2 x day, 7 days a week for 3 years--per my phys therapist's program. I do have a disc issue, but it is under control. I have had NO problems (until now), even hauling around my 2 kids up and down the stairs, giving them shoulder rides, horsy rides and rolling around on the floor with them, etc. My back is FINE on my other bikes. Steve@ Serotta confirmed to me that, given the same geometry, NO WAY would a CDA be as comfortable as an Otrott or a Legend. He told me he had a CSi and an Ottrott and his experience was the same as mine. I told him I had all 4 bikes already, so he was NOT trying to sell me one! I wish the CDA was more comfortable, 'cuz it flat out smokes as a go fast bike.

I ride small bikes and I am a small guy, so maybe if these were 60cm bikes and I was over 200 lbs it would be a different story...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=64176&postcount=18
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=63484&postcount=8
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=161995&postcount=40

[72gmc]

You always hear: Don't race what you don't want to crash.

If I were crit racing I'd probably be riding some ill-fitting, stupid-light aluminum rocket that I didn't have in anything more than money.

There's a lot of truth to that, and the other comments about the demographics of this forum perhaps leaning a bit away from no-nonsense race bikes. But I think it's also about experience, and deciding that even a "tool" can be rewarding to ride. Watched a guy riding the rain-soaked criterium stage of last year's Tour of Enumclaw on a beautiful Hampsten. I feared for his bike, but it was great to see among the cookie cutter rides.

[alancw3]

i have owned many classic steel bikes. i.e. schwinn paramounts, raleigh professionals, peuquet px10's and the greatest bob jackson, but i have to say that you all are delusional to think that steel is a better frame material for a racing bike. i recently purchased a c'dale six13 team and i have to say that it is the best bike i have ever owned. unlimited power on demand. steel, great to look at (i love the look), very retro but not the best material for "racing" bikes. oh it is an easy material for buiders to work with from what i understand. imho!!!

[Fixed]

bro when i race i 'm the only cat on an all steel bike but i don't mind having an un- fair advantage . my miele is like a track bike with gears I love sprinting on it .
cheers

i agree a lot of bros have never been on steel .

[Big Dan]

i have owned many classic steel bikes. i.e. schwinn paramounts, raleigh professionals, peuquet px10's and the greatest bob jackson, but i have to say that you all are delusional to think that steel is a better frame material. i recently purchased a c'dale six13 team and i have to say that it is the best bike i have ever owned. unlimited power on demand. steel, great to look at (i love the look), very retro but not the best material for "racing" bikes. oh it is an easy material for buiders to work with from what i understand. imho!!!

Me, "delusional" and happy bro. Dropped many Six13's with a cheap steel Lemond. GO figure...... :eek:

[dirtdigger88]

Me, "delusional" and happy bro. Dropped many Six13's with a cheap steel Lemond. GO figure...... :eek:

they just took it easy on you - Im sure!!!!

they were held back by the rust flying off- yeah. . . thats it

Jason

[alancw3]

my point is that steel is not the optimal racing bike material. i personally think that there is nothing prettier than a lugged steel bike (work of art) to look at but not the best for racing in today's world.

[dirtdigger88]

my point is that steel is not the optimal racing bike material. i personally think that there is nothing prettier than a lugged steel bike (work of art) to look at but not the best for racing in todya's world.

yeah it really sucked for Merkex et. al.

Jason

[fiamme red]

i recently purchased a c'dale six13 team and i have to say that it is the best bike i have ever owned. unlimited power on demand.Unlimited power on demand? I thought the Six13 was a bicycle, not a motorcycle? :confused:

I have my good and my bad days on the bike. It depends on the weather, my mental state, my physical condition, etc.; but not on the frame material.

[Big Dan]

The CIII I was riding last year was as good as any Cannondale that I've ridden.
Believe me I like Cannondales....

Come on Fixed, give us more love..... :D

[alancw3]

eddy merckx is imho the greatest racer of all time!! again you are missing the point of what i am saying. steel is wonderful, just not the optimal material for a "current day' racing bike!!

[Roy E. Munson]

yeah it really sucked for Merkex et. al.

ahhh, i believe that was many years ago. did they even have al or carbon bikes back then? I doubt.

using your logic, should we all be on those bikes with the huge front wheel and the rider perched 10 feet in the air? after all, at some point in time, someone won a bike race on one of those. as well, i guess carbon tubulars are uselss too? merckx won without them.

[dirtdigger88]

I have read now enough great reviews on custom steel bikes PLUS I can add my own 2 cents about returning to the magic of riding a steel frame that was dialed in for my current position and use of new 10 speed brifters. All I can say is steel is really good stuff and if you all stop and think about it NOBODY ever complained about the ride of steel, the weight maybe but never the ride.
I find that with my Uniscasi Steel Rapid Tour frame which I deliberately designed around a lower BB , kicked out trail , longer chain stays and YES Wider tire clearances feels so much sure footed and just an all around joy to ride. So Kirk owners , Zank owners and Sachs owners and let me add to this list Serotta Nobioum steel owners ...... enjoy the rides of your finely crafted steel frames. Steel never died its just got forgot with the new bike materials available today.

but Mr. Smiley said nothing about racing- what % of the members here REALLY race? 1-2% at best-

Jason

[Roy E. Munson]

In the context of making a point, racing was bought up. Take any post on this forum in vacuum as you have and this place dies a quick death.

[dirtdigger88]

In the context of making a point, racing was bought up. Take any post on this forum in vacuum as you have and this place dies a quick death.


ok- I agree

but I bet Im still faster than 90% of the people out there riding non steel bikes-

so with this logic- steel bikes are faster :p

but I dont race-

so steel bike must be terrible for racing-

oh what fun on a Friday- when I should be riding

Jason

http://www.pcdon.com/vacuum.gif

[Fixed]

bro a new bike ain't going to make you faster a new bike might make you ride more . when i do a crit i may ride my cannondale they are fine but my miele is like a part of me I'm still working on getting the merckx corsa to fit like the miele . .. the big thing is i would rather crash out on my cadd7 than my pride and joy that i could never replace and is like a body part .
..... that springy feel in a sprint is priceless and that is one thing the cadd7 lacks but that is a matter of taste and your bike history i.m.h.o.
but i do like them better than trek compaired to an oclv they are springy
cheers

[Big Dan]

The problem I have is with comparing a PX10 or another 20 year old bike with a Six13.
Now that's "delusional" imho....... :D

[Ahneida Ride]

By accident and the Grace of God, I had the pleasure to recently converse with a true luminary and dignitary of the Bicycling community . I just can't mention this person's name. But this person really likes the CSI (Steel !)
and this is from a person who could ride anything. For marketing reasons
I just can't mention the name. So, if Steel is the preference of this genius...

Steel can be far lighter then Ti. My Rapid Tour Legend is no lightweight.
She is heavy. I recently lifted a steel Rivendell Rambo and it is far lighter.
Who cares? The Legend was designed to lug my carcass around and it does
with exemplary aplomb. I love this "heavy" bike. The ride is sublime.

I know a rider who owns an Ottrott, Legend and CDA. The CDA is his go to
comfort bike.

Steel should not be discounted.

[Jason E]

I hate these threads that get started just so we can pat ourselves on the back about frame materials... No offense, but it's like that. There was a "?" in the title, but no actual question. Ha!

Anyway, my question is for "Ahneida Ride".

Exactly why can you not name this individual? Do you represent them? Their company? The company they are known to ride?

If I ran into Levi Leipheimer and he saw my Bike and was lik, "Hey, duuude, I like your bike. Serotta makes nice bikes." I'd tell you guys.

Those guys are allowed to have opinions. There is nothing wrong with sharing them.

Pointing out that you heard it, but can't say who said it? Not really necessary.

Imho, which we are all entitled to.

[iml]

I've ridden and raced lots of very nice custom steel and ti bikes. For a long time, I looked down my nose at aluminum. I was a hater for sure. I picked up a cheap Cannondale CAAD8 frame as an experiment for this season. And yeah, I'm pretty focused on training and racing, so take that into consideration.

I love the thing. It happens to fit me, which is key, of course. Beyond that, it feels fast, responsive, springy, comfy, smooth, etc. Does it make me a faster racer than my equally well-fitting steel bike? Gosh, I think in some situations it actually might. Does it make me a faster racer than some dude on a steel bike who's stronger than me? Nope. Still, it's the best performing road frame I've ever had, although I don't expect to ride it for more than a couple of seasons.

It's all great.

[sspielman]

By accident and the Grace of God, I had the pleasure to recently converse with a true luminary and dignitary of the Bicycling community . I just can't mention this person's name. But this person really likes the CSI (Steel !)
and this is from a person who could ride anything. For marketing reasons
I just can't mention the name. So, if Steel if the preference of this genius...

Steel can be far lighter then Ti. My Rapid Tour Legend is no lightweight.
She is heavy. I recently lifted a steel Rivendell Rambo and it is far lighter.
Who cares? The Legend was designed to lug my carcass around and it does
with exemplary aplomb. I love this "heavy" bike. The ride is sublime.

I know a rider who owns an Ottrott, Legend and CDA. The CDA is his go to
comfort bike.

Steel should not be discounted.





Please tell me that it wasn't Arni Nashbar!!!!

[Ahneida Ride]

Anyway, my question is for "Ahneida Ride".

Exactly why can you not name this individual? Do you represent them? Their company? The company they are known to ride?



I do not represent any company. I am just a plain old very happy Serotta
owner. POVHSO ;)

Look ... I just can't say much more. This person knows a lot about Ti and
carbon .... not just steel.


I've posted here for quite a while. My fellow phorumnite buddies may make
an individual assessment of my integrity ... or lack thereof.

[William]

I do not represent any company. I am just a plain old very happy Serotta
owner. POVHSO ;)

Look ... I just can't say much more. This person knows a lot about Ti and
carbon .... not just steel.


I've posted here for quite a while. My fellow phorumnite buddies may make
an individual assessment of my integrity ... or lack thereof.

Integrity?

You will never find, a more honest guy of integrity and character. :cool:


William

[cpg]

my point is that steel is not the optimal racing bike material.


Why?

Curt

[Jason E]

Please tell me that it wasn't Arni Nashbar!!!!

See, THAT's good stuff.

Ahneida Ride, I know you've been here a while. No hard feelings. I just think vague comments like that are, well.... crap.

I would go so far to say that in general , though maybe not here, comments like that do more to harm one's integrity/word then anything other then flat out lies.

Again, jmho.

[Ahneida Ride]

Ahneida Ride, I know you've been here a while. No hard feelings. I just think vague comments like that are, well.... crap.

I would go so far to say that in general , though maybe not here, comments like that do more to harm one's integrity/word then anything other then flat out lies.

Again, jmho.

Jason

I can't disagree with you. Your point is most valid. ;)

[jasont]

When I was shopping for my first road bike I decided on a lugged steel frame (De Rosa) because it was pretty. The fact that they have a reputation for riding nice also helped. And the rep isn't wrong (at least in the case of my bike) I love the ride.

But when I'm ready for another bike, I doubt it'll be lugged steel. I think I'd like to see what carbon (or perhaps something like an Ottrott) has to offer. I like the idea of having a few different types of bikes in the stable to choose from.

[Big Dan]

When I was shopping for my first road bike I decided on a lugged steel frame (De Rosa) because it was pretty. The fact that they have a reputation for riding nice also helped. And the rep isn't wrong (at least in the case of my bike) I love the ride.

But when I'm ready for another bike, I doubt it'll be lugged steel. I think I'd like to see what carbon (or perhaps something like an Ottrott) has to offer. I like the idea of having a few different types of bikes in the stable to choose from.

Jason, I know what you are saying .
That's why my 5 active bikes are all steel, the other stuff is hanging in the attic.......... :D

[jasont]

Jason, I know what you are saying .
That's why my 5 active bikes are all steel, the other stuff is hanging in the attic.......... :D

Heh, cool.

I'm curious though, how do you differentiate between 5 steel bikes? Do you have a fast light one, a comfortable one for centuries, one to cruise around town on, etc.? Or is it something else?

Just curious.

[Jiwa Jiwa]

fast/geared road. cross (geared, as a cross trainer and commuter). single speed (cross). fixie. mtn bike. them's my five steelies, that's how i differentiate.

[Big Dan]

Serotta
Merckx
Tesch
Lemond
Lemond

They are all fast, but different colors.......... :D

[Jiwa Jiwa]

mmmm! show me your tesch!

i have a 101 (in original bright PINK) in a box that may need to come out this year....

[jasont]

Serotta
Merckx
Tesch
Lemond
Lemond

They are all fast, but different colors.......... :D

Haha, nice.

[Big Dan]

.

[William]

Road & cross. Steel & steel. :cool:


William

PS: Got word that the "Effin" cross bike got it's final clear coat this morning. :banana: Should be getting finished pics tonight. Can you say "ROAD TRIP"!!!!

[davids]

Steel is real. Titanium is ritanium. Aluminum is raluminum. Carbon is rarbon. Even Bamboo is almost certainly ramboo.

Materials are only as good as the designer and fabricator, which is to say they're all great, and they all suck.

Referring to Smiley's original posting - No one ever complained about a well-designed, well-made bike. Unless they tried using it for a purpose for which it wasn't intended.

I think most people here understand this on some level. But we seem to have a material thread every few weeks. So, maybe the issue really has more to do with the marketplace? Of course, that point's also been made a thousand times.

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

I don't get it - Why does this keep getting argued?

[dirtdigger88]

[QUOTE=davids
I don't get it - Why does this keep getting argued?[/QUOTE]

because we get b*tched at for talking about politics- short stems- fat people- OT subjects and porn :crap:

belive me- Id rather be talking about one of the above subjects instead

so ***???

Jason

[Fixed]

bro nice bike big dan
old cars -are cooler to me than new cars
lp's are -"""""" than cd's
old jazz -"""""""" new music
old clothes -"""""" new clothes
old house""""""" than new house
but that's me bro
steel lugged bike with d.t. shifters and tubulars
some people find these things are hip a personal choice about what you ride and how you ride .

[97CSI]

There is a slant towards steel on this forum because of the demographics of its members. If we were to go to a local race, I'm sure you'll find a lot less people raving about steel.They are all a bunch of kids. What do they know? :confused:

[Fixed]

They are all a bunch of kids. What do they know? :confused:
touche

[William]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

I don't get it - Why does this keep getting argued?

http://kevinremde.members.winisp.net/images/beating_2Da_2Ddead_2Dhorse.gif


William

[shaq-d]

<snip>
imhoatmoyo
<snip>

oh geezus. i just giggled like a schoolgirl. :banana:

sd

[Grant McLean]

bro nice bike big dan
old cars -are cooler to me than new cars
lp's are -"""""" than cd's
old jazz -"""""""" new music
old clothes -"""""" new clothes
old house""""""" than new house
but that's me bro
steel lugged bike with d.t. shifters and tubulars
some people find these things are hip a personal choice about what you ride and how you ride .

bro I like this list. But one further point, is that there is old stuff that's
crap, and lots of new stuff that's ugly, crappy and worse than what came
before. But there is new stuff that's cool too. The wise one knows the
difference, and which way is up.

g

[eddief]

why have this conversation? something to do when not riding.

All of these bikes bring a smile to my face when I ride any of them:

*20 year old lugged steel Specialized Sequoia
*Coupled Kogswell all steel (sometimes I trade in a Kestrel fork.)
*Custom steel fillet Rex with all carbon fork
*Riv Rambouillet orange (the orange color adds immeasurably to the ride quality)
*The new joy in the herd is the Giant OCR C. Haven't been on a steel bike since this was built.

I don't give a goodgoshdarn (ggd) what anyone says. I see your "steel is real" and raise you a "light is right."

I do try to figure out if I could only have one, which I'd choose. Glad I don't have to make this choice. Since I do almost exclusively smooth road riding with lots of hills, at the moment, I'd choose pure carbon custom; which I don't yet own.

[vaxn8r]

I have a question that's been on my mind for awhile regarding steel bikes.

I keep hearing things like you can't compare old steel with new steel. So a steel bike of the 80's or 90's will not compare to a steel bike of the 2000's? Is this true? Because I also hear it said repeatedly that performance has nothing or little (inconsequential) to the variety of tubing used except that some newer steels you can use less of it and still duplicate the stiffness of the frame. This reduces the issue to weight. But I also hear repeatedly that a pound or 2 of frame weight should make zero quantifiable difference in "how fast" a bike rides or climbs since it's nonrotational. So if it's really just all about fit or contact points and then design, what difference should it make what decade your steel frame was built?

I've ridden a lot of classice steel over the years but never anything from the 2000's. Am I missing something or not?

[atmo]

This reduces the issue to weight. But I also hear repeatedly that a pound or 2 of frame weight should make zero quantifiable difference in "how fast" a bike rides or climbs since it's nonrotational. So if it's really just all about fit or contact points and then design, what difference should it make what decade your steel frame was built?

atmo the builder evolves as does the quality of the material ya'll.

[Ray]

But I also hear repeatedly that a pound or 2 of frame weight should make zero quantifiable difference in "how fast" a bike rides or climbs since it's nonrotational.
Zero? I think the point is a couple of pounds (particularly non-rotational) doesn't make enough difference for a recreational rider to worry about and that it's waaaaay secondary to fit, handling, etc, etc, etc. But for high level racers on a mountainous route, it can make enough difference to matter. I forget where the calculator is, but I've seen the numbers and since seconds can matter in racing, a couple of pounds can matter when you're climbing all day. It'll NEVER matter to me and I never hesitate to ride one of my steel bikes because of weight but that's different than zero difference.

All of that said, I've ridden steel from the '80's and early '90s with skinny little tubes of thicker steel and much more recent steel with bigger diameter tubes of thinner guage steel and, yeah, it makes a difference. Just like an old Alan alu feels real different than a Bud-can(nondale).I think the bottom line is that steel builders today have more options which can lead to better frames for a particular purpose. But there are plenty of great riding older steel frames and I'm sure there would still be plenty of poor riding newer steel frames if there were plenty of production steel frames still being made.

-Ray

[Smiley]

Who said anything about racing with steel ?
And yes the new steels are very nice I think atmo even commented on the Columbus Nobium steel in a past thread. Mine seems really sweet. And yes to 93 Ti guy , I would not compare a CS stay'd frame to a Rapid Tour frame in steel for comfort. I deliberately went to a longer chain stay for comfort and wider tires.

[dbrk]

Who said anything about racing with steel ? snip...

Okay, I will. There are recent pro victories on steel cyclocross bikes and Dede DeMet Barry's famous ride in Montreal on a custom Mariposa. The notion that steel is too heavy to race is perception, marketing, and the usual usual. But what pro racers have to do with us is entirely beyond me, even those among us who still race locally or even nationally. Of course, why any recreational rider is on 23mm tires is also entirely beyond me. In fact, I'd say that about 99% of everything about the hype/word/marketing/"facts" of modern recreational cycling is beyond me. I'm pretty good in Sanskrit but no one really cares about that. Thank goodness.

dbrk

[Big Dan]

:D

[Grant McLean]

Okay, I will. There are recent pro victories on steel cyclocross bikes and Dede DeMet Barry's famous ride in Montreal on a custom Mariposa. The notion that steel is too heavy to race is perception, marketing, and the usual usual. But what pro racers have to do with us is entirely beyond me, even those among us who still race locally or even nationally. Of course, why any recreational rider is on 23mm tires is also entirely beyond me. In fact, I'd say that about 99% of everything about the hype/word/marketing/"facts" of modern recreational cycling is beyond me. I'm pretty good in Sanskrit but no one really cares about that. Thank goodness.

dbrk
Douglas,
At this point, quoting Dede's very fine victory only makes your point weaker.
One rider in a North American race win, that happened years ago?
Hardly convincing against the Giro d'Italia win on an 800gr carbon frame, no?

The UCI weight limit has gone a long way to reinforce the public's obsession
with weight. The fact that pro bikes are now at the 6.8kg/15lb mark has created
a target for everyone's perception. I guess the irony (nice pun!) of Frame & Forks
at 1.1kg, is that leaves 5.7kg for the rest of the stuff. The new generation of
carbon frames are a smaller percentage of the overall weight of
the UCI limit, which means the wheels can be heavier, which makes no sense.

g

[sailorboy]

not good for racing only because the steel bikes I own are special enough to me that i wouldn't risk mixing it up with the other troglodytes in my local crash fest on any of them. Would love to see what I can do on them though. They're not un-replacable, but close:
Hampsten Giro 88
Merckx MXL motorola
Serotta CSI 7-11 "huffy"


That's why a nice used Ti, alu or carbon frame will always do fine by me for race days. They are replacable or expendable and a dime-a-dozen in my book. I don't race them because of some inherent weight advantage. That's what race wheels are for. A couple of seasons ago I had a modern landshark that I raced and did well on, had nothing (or everything?) to do with what the frame was made of.

I'll have a serious dilema when my slightly used della santa arrives and is built up. To me the perfect race-ready all steel bike. It could probably be fixed or replaced if trashed, but that would be a sad day.

[93legendti]

On my CDA, the extra weight of the steel fame is a non-issue (which was a surprise for me). The bike climbs, accelerates and rides fantastically. Except for the comfort issue, it is a great bike. BTW, here are the specs on my CDA:

wheelbase: 96.82 cm
trail: 6.21 cm
hta: 72.5 deg
sta: 73.2 deg
slope: 7 deg
effective tt: 53.5 cm
front center distance:56.67 cm
cs length: 41.5 cm
bb drop: 8 cm
calc setback: 13.87

[stevep]

Okay, I will. There are recent pro victories on steel cyclocross bikes . In fact, I'd say that about 99% of everything about the hype/word/marketing/"facts" of modern recreational cycling is beyond me. I'm pretty good in Sanskrit but no one really cares about that. Thank goodness.

dbrk

you have to tell me about the cross races won on steel by pros.
i cannot name a pro riding steel...does not mean there is not one...but i cannot name one.

i accept that 99% of the prerformance stuff eludes you ( salt here ) but performance equipment will not likely include steel in the foreseeable future ( salt, salt ).
which is not to say that steel bikes are not great bikes... because they surely are... but they are not really nor will be used in the top levels of competition anymore. ...( emergency kool aid substitute here ).
now go for it...

[dbrk]

you have to tell me about the cross races won on steel by pros.
i cannot name a pro riding steel...does not mean there is not one...but i cannot name one.

i accept that 99% of the prerformance stuff eludes you ( salt here ) but performance equipment will not likely include steel in the foreseeable future ( salt, salt ).
which is not to say that steel bikes are not great bikes... because they surely are... but they are not really nor will be used in the top levels of competition anymore. ...( emergency kool aid substitute here ).
now go for it...

'Cross: on a Sachs, our man Jonathan, albeit a few years back when the situation wasn't much different in terms of weight, materials, etc.

As for all the rest, you are right and right and right again. But my contention is that its all marketing, perception, and hype because it's not the material that makes the racer and a steel bike would not be a disadvantage in most/many cases. Still, you are right and so the perception too will follow. Perception is reality, I cannot deny.

dbrk[oolaidforbreakfast]

[Grant McLean]

But my contention is that its all marketing, perception, and hype because it's not the material that makes the racer and a steel bike would not be a disadvantage in most/many cases. Still, you are right and so the perception too will follow. Perception is reality, I cannot deny.

dbrk[oolaidforbreakfast]

Anyone remember the '03 tour? The "legalize my Cannondale" promotion
was brilliant, despite the fact that Simoni's bike was about pound OVER the
weight limit, before they stuck those little weights on the top tube.
Brilliant Marketing!! Everyone accepted it at face value. Anyone ever seen
that bike on a registered scale? I think not.

g

[CNote]

But my contention is that its all marketing, perception, and hype because it's not the material that makes the racer and a steel bike would not be a disadvantage in most/many cases.

Right-ee-oh. And that steel cpg-built gravel road racer you have a-comin' is about as perfect as a bike can be!

[Fixed]

bro the fit and peace of mind I have on my steel is an unfair advantage in my mind I road today with 2 bros from toyota united team and about 60 other riders at the end it was about 6 riders and i was still there on my steel . bros asking me about my bike they had never seen one like it .my bike 's got soul bro . steel fork and d/t shifters tubulars it loves to sprint
cheers

[BillyBear]

love my CSI with steel fork but as Douglas stated above, love my csi with the 25mm tires even more... :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Grant McLean]

Hey bro, i just got back from a ride on the geesawa, tweaked a few things,
new stem, tape, and spaced the pedals. Today was one of the best feeling
days ever. Beautiful blue sky, nice temperature, breeze in the
air. I had to stop to pinch myself that I wasn't dreaming. No chain.
(so i took a photo)

g

[Serpico]

the new stem looks great

[Grant McLean]

the new stem looks great

thanks Serpico,

I don't know why I was trying so hard to like the ITM one that
was on there before, only just cause it matched the bar,
but that stem was ugly.
The new one is 5mm longer worked out way better anyway,
and I found this Nitto Pearl in the perfect size, and for some reason
it has no logo stamped on it? Anyway, the bike is happy now.

g

[Fixed]

bro your bike makes me smile thanks
cheers

[zap]

sniped

I deliberately went to a longer chain stay for comfort and wider tires.

Thats my point.

There are other options out there where someone doesn't have to make these compromises in order to get a better ride.

[Fat Robert]

tube shape and geo

my ridley is an unforgiving short-course beast if there ever was one (quick handling and stiff like concrete), but its still more comfortable than the zona steel megatube (diamond-shaped OS downtube, top tube, seatstays, chainstays) I had four years ago. that was a steel bike that was unrideable outside of a 1 hour crit.

its all about the saddle. turbomatic bro.

[stevep]

bro the fit and peace of mind I have on my steel is an unfair advantage in my mind I road today with 2 bros from toyota united team and about 60 other riders at the end it was about 6 riders and i was still there on my steel . bros asking me about my bike they had never seen one like it .my bike 's got soul bro . steel fork and d/t shifters tubulars it loves to sprint
cheers

you're the man fixed.
you should have to ride a carbon bike to slow you down. its not fair to the other guys that you have the secret weapon...they should put weights on your bike.
maybe you need fewer gears? how many gears do you have?
i hope that you jumped thornton in the sprint! hahaha

[Fixed]

bro I got 8 and the front doesn't work I didn't win the sprint but my bro shook did .he always knows where to be .

[Smiley]

sniped



Thats my point.

There are other options out there where someone doesn't have to make these compromises in order to get a better ride.

Zapper , I was committed to longer chain stays when I decided to do medium panniers , the fact that the stays are only 1 cm longer does not really make this bike a comfort machine, now if I had asked for NONE oversized stays that may have made a difference. Trust me this bike compared to the Hors is plenty stiff enough. The Hors is the bike that all others should be judged against for comfort :)

[xcandrew]

Douglas,
The UCI weight limit has gone a long way to reinforce the public's obsession
with weight. The fact that pro bikes are now at the 6.8kg/15lb mark has created
a target for everyone's perception. I guess the irony (nice pun!) of Frame & Forks
at 1.1kg, is that leaves 5.7kg for the rest of the stuff. The new generation of
carbon frames are a smaller percentage of the overall weight of
the UCI limit, which means the wheels can be heavier, which makes no sense.


Why not?

Moment of inertia of wheels doesn't matter... heavier wheels keep rolling longer and reduces the magnitude of microaccelerations/deccelerations from uneven pedal stroke :rolleyes: which balances out the fact that they take a negligible amount more power to accelerate (accelerations are negligible in cycling). The savings and gains from a heavier or lighter wheel with the same total bike weight are negligible...

But heavier wheels are generally stronger so there is a reduced chance of wasting effort (and results) due to a mechanical. Some of the extra weight can be used to make them more aerodynamic and safer (say, aluminum braking surfaces instead of carbon), all of which promotes better results than a lighter wheel/heavier frame/same total weight combination.

[vaxn8r]

I just rode 80 miles and 6,000 feet with about 15 guys including Gasman and bcm119. bcm's steel CIII didn't seem to slow him down on the hill. He's a natural born climber. A second rider was on a Lemond 853 and he seemed to be moving pretty up the hill pretty well on his steed as well.

As for me, my Legend was the tool for the day. It more than sufficed.

[93legendti]

tube shape and geo

my ridley is an unforgiving short-course beast if there ever was one (quick handling and stiff like concrete), but its still more comfortable than the zona steel megatube (diamond-shaped OS downtube, top tube, seatstays, chainstays) I had four years ago. that was a steel bike that was unrideable outside of a 1 hour crit.

its all about the saddle. turbomatic bro.

In my experience and opinion based upon riding my 4 Serottas, I am convinced that it is the tube material that accounts for differences in ride quality--given the same builder and same shaped tubes. My '93 Legend and '04 CDA are near twins (angles, tt length and build kit), except for the slope on the CDA. My '02 Ottrott is close to the CDA and my '05 Ottrott ST is a compact, but has a shorter wheelbase, shorter chainstays and less trail than my CDA (same fork and rake). Same tires, posts, pedals and saddles on all 4 bikes. 3 of the bikes have Reynolds Ouzo Pro forks. (The '02 Ottrott has an Alpha Q, which is a bit stiffer.) Tires, wheels and air pressure are the same. So basically the 4 bikes are almost all the same, but for the tube material.

As Steve@ Serotta confirmed, the Ottrott and Legend are more comfortable than the CDA. No need for tires wider than 23c on the ti bikes (same for my Strong 6/4 Ti Compact). I put some 28c's on the CDA.

[Fat Robert]

never said it makes no difference

it does make less difference than tube shape and geo

get on a Ti frame with diamond-shaped "sprinter" tubeset and an "everything wacked" geo and you'll wish you were on your "uncomfortable" CDA....


everything that goes into the total picture affects ride quality...tube shape and geo are the most important things to start with, though....

[team_sheepshead]

Late to chime in here...I race on steel, a Curtlo S3 bike with carbon fork. It "feels" as stiff as any of the OS tubing C'dales I've tried. But more importantly, it fits. It's basically the same size and angles as my Zank bike made of Deda Zero steel (frame and fork). But the Zank bike rides like a magic carpet. (Most of the components on the two bikes are identical, and I often use the same wheels.)

IME, people race what they can afford. I race the Curtlo b/c the fame costs ~$950. Guys on my team and in my club race what they can afford. I've got teammates on an "old" Basso and an "old" Masi with DT shfiters. Other guys ride brand-new carbon Times.

BTW I picked up a 1980 Panasonic DX2000 the other day as a commuter rig. Tange Cro-Mo frame and fork, I believe, with 27" rims. The thing rides like a brick. Slow to accelerate, slow to turn, stiff as h*ll. And I hate the DT shifters...not the best choice for NYC traffic.

[Fixed]

bro here is the trick for d.t. 's put it in one gear make belive it's a single speed . I'm used to them they are easy for me I like the drops a lot .
cheers

[93legendti]

bro here is the trick for d.t. 's put it in one gear make belive it's a single speed . I'm used to them they are easy for me I like the drops a lot .
cheers
F, what gear do you put it in? I'm guessing 53 x 13.

[Fixed]

bro I good with that in a group ride I ride in the middle of the cluster most of the time 12 -21 .cheers .