Training, performance, diet and vegitarion protein intake

[CampyorBust]

This could go in the other cycle training advice thread, but I don’t want to derail it.

I enjoy having good results in my cycling performance, whether it be on the local online wang measuring competition or just saying to myself “man that was a good ride”. I have dabbled with the idea of trying a race or two both mtb and road. Road is out of the question because I do not want to fall. I checked out a local race last year and man those guys are monsters, really crushing it, I might be able to keep up with them for a few miles but the whole race no way jose. MTB race maybe, its more of a battle with yourself, just what I like. However I don’t enjoy the crowds, frankly I cant staaaand them. Still I want my performance to improve. I find my performance hindered by several things, most of all a lack of stamina and lack of discipline. Also I feel my diet needs to be remedied first.

I am a pesceitarian (read hypocrite) for spiritual reasons, I am not ok with the suffering of cuddly animals. Met a very nice piggy the other day, I also symbolically buried a sheep and a cow two days ago. An OT topic for sure. Anyways I’m a nutter and essentially a junk food vegetarian. I feel like I am not eating right and frankly enjoy the vino a bit too much of late, that seems to be the reason for my gut and lack of stamina, any steps in the right direction in those areas and I immediately see an improvement, staying the course is hard.

The stamina thing: Road - I’ll admit it, I have never ridden more than 50 miles. I just don’t see the necessity, it feels like punishment and I start aching. I can’t pace myself well and if I get off the bike for a rest stop I feel like I am cheating. Mtb - I get my 1-2 hour crush fest in and that seems to suffice, I would like to ride longer rides without feeling the need to brap. However the thought of riding an mtb on the road is an anathema to me, and doing loops is monotonous. In my area you often have to make peace with one of those to get a longer 20+ mile mtb ride in, plus no awe inspiring views to keep you going, just trees and rocks, gnarly ones. (I swore I would never use that word or brap, but a fitting description it is)

So aside from my psychological stamina blocks, I just don’t feel I have the energy. When I drink my protein shakes take my b12 and vitamins I feel much more better. So a question to all the vegetarians and peskytarians how do you keep your energy level and stamina up?

Now the online wang measuring and chasing after the local road and trail sharks has without a doubt taken my riding to the next level. Yet the damage it has done to my body, furthering my lack of discipline and stamina cannot be denied.

There is a guy who rides out from the city and absolutely lays waste to all that he rolls over. Talking like 60-80 mile rides of absolute mind boggling performance. How can I get to that level of performance? Maybe in my dreams…

Thanks in advance.

[cinema]

Ones own diet is a very long journey that you have to discover and no one person will enlighten you. I have done double centuries on only water and low carb snacking like dried mango, bananas, pb+j, nuts. Personally I've found eating a more plant based diet and generally less overall helps.

two things stand out in your post. junk food and discipline. fix one and the other will fall in line. another piece of the puzzle is just doing what makes you happy. sometimes long rides make people happy. that's why they do it. if you don't like them, why suffer? But really, if you want do get the kind of performance you're talking about it's not necessarily hard. you really have to just up your mileage and develop your aerobic ability. you can go quantity over quality and just put in the miles and eat whatever you burn. 100 miles a week is a good place to start. ride to work every day.

that being said. I am also a pescatarian but mainly for taste and health reasons. I don't like meat in general. If you are looking for performance gains on a pesca/veg diet, a mixture of pea and rice protein will give you the entire amino acid profile, totally vegan.

[Pastashop]

Being fit isn't the same as being healthy. They're not mutually exclusive, but I'm not convinced that cycling is a good means to that end. So, I guess, given the constraints you are facing with regard to riding options and preferences, the question is of priority: what's your priority, to "kick butt" on the bike, or to get healthier?

Having said that, the company you keep can have a big influence on the habits you build. Want to become a stronger rider?.. Ride the bike more / faster. Beware that for adaptation (body getting stronger) to take place, you will need to allow ample time for recovery, and to minimize intake of processed " food".

But you knew all that already. :-)

[CampyorBust]

Thanks guys, here is the protein I take…

http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/Foundational-Nutrition/RAW-Protein.aspx

No problem averaging 100 or even 150 miles a week if I am focused on road, but keeping it up for a number of weeks is tough. I am thinking of getting back into jogging. Doing pull ups (I can do 10!) and sit-ups every day now. Replacing bread for oatmeal/kasha in the morning seems to have real results. I eat a lot of eggs lately and I really enjoy the wonderful powder that is curry, tumeric and Cayene pepper, I put them on everything. Love me some curry/tumeric/cayenne eggs in the morning. I am a cheesaholic and eat salads way too seldom.

There comes a point when you have to really start looking after your body. I am at that point, I cant just shove anything down the chute anymore.

[aingeru]

I don't get this fixation with protein...as long as you are eating enough calories (better from healthy food), you are going to be getting enough protein. You can check a food's nutrition facts here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/

Your focus should be carbo loading. Foods rich in carbs have more than enough protein to keep you going. Now, you will have to eat A LOT more to get your body functioning. Telling from experience, I only eat plants.

[OtayBW]

So aside from my psychological stamina blocks, I just don’t feel I have the energy. When I drink my protein shakes take my b12 and vitamins I feel much more better. So a question to all the vegetarians and peskytarians how do you keep your energy level and stamina up?I can't address your particular situation except to say that as a lacto-ovo for 37 years, I don't suffer from the lack of energy as you describe, nor do I respond noticably from drinking protein shakes or taking B12 (when I took it). It's mid-winter right now, so my rides are short (if not eliminated), but typical in-season weekend rides are mostly all 50-80 miles with several longer rides thrown in through the year. Nothing mind-boggling about it, really, and for me, protein uptake seems to have very little to do with short-term performance.

Maybe you need to look at your pre-ride and on-board nutrition and hydration, or possibly get a good physical or something to see thing is going on?

[idrinkwater]

I've been a plant eater (vegan) for my whole cycling career of about 8 years, so I don't know any other diet feels like. I can say that my diet has never been a hindrance or an energy drain, even when I was more serious. When I eat right, I feel "light and tight," which is a good feeling. On 50+ mile rides, I eat oatmeal before and just try to ride the sugar/carb wave with mango, clif bars, peanut butter and nuts. It works for me and for my needs (not racing).

It doesn't apply to any veg people, but grant petersen's new book about paleo is called "eat bacon don't jog." I think he thinks he has it figured out. But there's more than one way to feed a cat.

[sandyrs]

I've been a plant eater (vegan) for my whole cycling career of about 8 years, so I don't know any other diet feels like. I can say that my diet has never been a hindrance or an energy drain, even when I was more serious. When I eat right, I feel "light and tight," which is a good feeling. On 50+ mile rides, I eat oatmeal before and just try to ride the sugar/carb wave with mango, clif bars, peanut butter and nuts. It works for me and for my needs (not racing).

It doesn't apply to any veg people, but grant petersen's new book about paleo is called "eat bacon don't jog." I think he thinks he has it figured out. But there's more than one way to feed a cat.

Grant Petersen would not condone riding 100-150 miles per week though. He has essentially condemned (from a health perspective) any rides over ten miles

[oldpotatoe]

Grant Petersen would not condone riding 100-150 miles per week though. He has essentially condemned (from a health perspective) any rides over ten miles

Grant and Jan(Hiene) need to go have a (Gluten free) beer together.:D

[MattTuck]

I noticed one thing you said. Rides over 50 miles make you sore. Could it be a problem with your saddle or position?

If those two are not comfortable, riding over 50 miles can be a real slog... even if the endurance is there.

[ptourkin]

Ultra-racer/randonneur vegan for over 10 years. I got my initial training diet advice from my friend Matt Ruscigno RD/MPH and five time Furnace Creek 508 finisher years ago. The emphasis on protein and outside supplementation is greatly overstated. We generally get enough from a plant-based diet. Unless we're doing something completely weird, you should be fine on that front. My 508 fueling plan, on his advice is carb-centric -- there is no need to be concerned with protein intake during even a 30 hour effort.

Many ultra-endurance athletes have gone to a plant-based diet for the lower rates of post-exercise inflammation we tend to suffer. I did a tough 188 miles/300k yesterday and could ride today no problem. I'm guessing patronage of your local fitter could bring more benefit than diet for that issue.

[ptourkin]

I don't get this fixation with protein...as long as you are eating enough calories (better from healthy food), you are going to be getting enough protein. You can check a food's nutrition facts here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/

Your focus should be carbo loading. Foods rich in carbs have more than enough protein to keep you going. Now, you will have to eat A LOT more to get your body functioning. Telling from experience, I only eat plants.

+100

Protein shakes and the like are why, as our local cycling guru MD, Arnie Baker has stated, "cyclists have the most expensive piss." Eat food - even a balanced plant-based diet has more than enough protein for recovery.

[shovelhd]

Your questions are all over the place. You seem to be obsessed with ewang and others that can crush you. So what. Let that go for a while and focus on yourself. There will always be someone faster and/or stronger than you. Get over it.

What you should be focusing on is your own training, and along with that, what you are eating. There are plenty of Cat1's that are vegetarians, and you've added fish. Lack of red/white meat is not a crutch. You can reach peak performance with a healthy non-meat diet.

Get a baseline of your performance. Tune everything else out. Focus on improving your performance.

I am not a dietician but I have used one as a consultant when I returned to racing. Protein is great for building/rebuilding muscles and recovery, but what you need for events are carbohydrates and fats. You need to charge up your muscles with glycogen before the event. It's a lot more complicated than that. Point being your focus on protein and performance is fuzzy. You need to look at the big picture of your training and diet, not just protein and ewang.

[ceolwulf]

I would say cut out the food you already know is junk, get rid of processed and sugary stuff, start with that and come back to the other questions in a month or so when you'll undoubtedly be feeling a lot better. Not a matter of not knowing enough, a matter of not doing what you already know ... been there myself, often.

[Geeheeb]

Jack Norris is a great source of info for veg*ans:

http://jacknorrisrd.com/best-study-on-vegan-protein-intakes-to-date/

[Mikej]

Man I had a nice filet and crab legs out with my wife for Valentine's Day -I understand you have a way of looking at circumstances differently. I however feel carb loading is not the answer and feel much better on a higher protein diet. There are enough studies form both sides to cancel each out, so I just hope you find what works.
"Broccoli- pfft vile weed". Jk

[CampyorBust]

Maybe you need to look at your pre-ride and on-board nutrition and hydration, or possibly get a good physical or something to see thing is going on?

Yes I am very very over due.

My on board nutrition is limited at best. With rides under 30 miles I never stop to have a snack, with rides over 35 miles I do one stop and eat 2-3 dates, maybe a cookie if I got one. I do put vega-sport-electrolyte-hydrator (https://myvega.com/products/vega-sport-electrolyte-hydrator/) in my water, and recently squeeze half a lemon into each bottle. I tend to skip lunch all together and go for a ride instead during the winter, then I come home have a a big dinch and pig out. Eating a whole large pizza or a huge tub of pasta after a long ride is not unheard of for me. Moderation eludes me.

When I eat right, I feel "light and tight," which is a good feeling. On 50+ mile rides, I eat oatmeal before and just try to ride the sugar/carb wave with mango, clif bars, peanut butter and nuts. It works for me and for my needs (not racing).

Yup this is when I feel best too. I lack the discipline to eat right all the time.

I noticed one thing you said. Rides over 50 miles make you sore. Could it be a problem with your saddle or position?

If those two are not comfortable, riding over 50 miles can be a real slog... even if the endurance is there.

I almost exclusively ride a SMP Glider and feel about as comfortable as I can on a bike, or so I think. Here is a weird question: Can reducing the amount of spacers under the stem lead to more comfort? I have been tempted to slam it for a while but can’t imagine it being more comfortable.

I did a tough 188 miles/300k yesterday and could ride today no problem. I'm guessing patronage of your local fitter could bring more benefit than diet for that issue.

Thats insane, I sometimes feel dead after a 44 mile ride. I'll need to start with the 100k ride first

Your questions are all over the place. You seem to be obsessed with ewang and others that can crush you. So what. Let that go for a while and focus on yourself. There will always be someone faster and/or stronger than you. Get over it.

What you should be focusing on is your own training, and along with that, what you are eating. There are plenty of Cat1's that are vegetarians, and you've added fish. Lack of red/white meat is not a crutch. You can reach peak performance with a healthy non-meat diet.

Get a baseline of your performance. Tune everything else out. Focus on improving your performance.

I am not a dietician but I have used one as a consultant when I returned to racing. Protein is great for building/rebuilding muscles and recovery, but what you need for events are carbohydrates and fats. You need to charge up your muscles with glycogen before the event. It's a lot more complicated than that. Point being your focus on protein and performance is fuzzy. You need to look at the big picture of your training and diet, not just protein and ewang.

This is good, thanks all for the replies.

I am sitting here trying to mentally weasel myself out of admitting it as an obsessions. But it is what it is, moreover its an addiction! If I don’t best a PR or make top 10 I feel meh. Yet when I do get that ego boost it is fantastic. It’s like Christmas every day, after every ride you get to open up your presents. What I have turned into is a fiend. I want to think I am getting over it.

In all honesty drinking is a major hindrance, I don’t get �����faced just giggly a few glasses of wine or a beer or two with dinner every day has become the norm, and thats how it starts. I don’t like the effect it is having on me.

[bewheels]

Campyorbust - sounds like you have a lot going on and things to sort out.

As to the original question about nutrition and performance -
Whether a person eats animal products or not has little/no impact on their performance provided they are eating a well balanced diet consistently. You could be a gluten-free vegan and perform at your genetic peak. A challenge that a gluten-free vegan faces is diet that require more prep and general work because you can not walk into a coffee shop/connivence store/quick-serve-restaurant and grab something to eat.

It is all about accumulation, habits and practices over time. Just as training only one day does not make a fit strong cyclist, eating well one meal does not make a person healthy, drinking enough water one day does not make a person well hydrated, getting enough sleep one night does not make a person rested, etc, etc

The other way to look at it is that eating a cookie does not make someone unhealthy. Or even bingeing on cookies one day does not make someone unhealthy. Bingeing on cookies 'often' will. We as humans are bad at realizing and/or recognizing our own habits. It is very common to underestimate the frequency that we do things 'often' (good or bad).

The rise of fitness watches/bands has been great for many people because it points out the real patterns of behavior. Many times it is a shock to people when faced with what they think they are doing versus what they actually are doing. Amount and quality of sleep is a big one that people misjudge.

Anyway...a person's diet is less a factor as:
- The quality of the food within their chosen diet
- The frequency they eat
- Hydration
- Sleep
- Recovery time
- A good training plan that fits goals and lifestyle and is followed

[pinkshogun]

i use this product in my water bottles when riding. i dont race or push excessively and it seems to give me enough energy and stamina

http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/Foundational-Nutrition/RAW-Meal.aspx

[chiasticon]

what's a vegitarion? :D

been lacto-ovo for quite a while and definitely as long as I've been riding regularly and racing. I'm normally at 250ish miles a week for the summer, 100 a week in the winter, if I'm lucky, and a lot less miles but the same number of hours during cx season. I don't have a huge issue with energy or going on long rides. there are times when I'm shredded after rides, but usually those are the ones where all my buddies are too (who are mostly all Cat-2 road racers). and of course I'm always shredded after races (I race cx as a 3, halfway to 2); if I wasn't, something's wrong.

I'm what I consider a lazy vegetarian, for sure; mainly because I suck at cooking and just have no patience for it. if it's not something my wife concocted (WAY better cook than me) or eating out, it's usually something quick and simple. I also drink a good bit of coffee and alcohol. cutting out the latter more is always a plus for me, in terms of feeling better-rested and dropping a few lbs.

on long rides, I'm usually just bringing shot blocks or bars, pretty much same as everyone else. I generally eat these as much as others too: about 1-200 cals once an hour for longer rides. less than 30 miles, no food necessary. I too get tired on longer solo rides (50+ miles), but mainly I just get bored. there's maybe something else going on there too, as not only are group rides sometimes easier (people to block the wind on occasion) but I generally feel more relaxed on them, with less soreness and tension in places where I'll sometimes get it.

not sure if any of this helps you...? but at the very least maybe it's worthwhile to know that someone else has a similar diet to you but has less issues with energy and longer rides. the only way to get better at them is to do more of them. if you're still having issues, as others have said, I'd look into your fit.

[shovelhd]

Starving yourself on the bike and binge eating afterwards will cause the issues you are having. Your blood sugar is all over the place. You'll gain unhealthy weight as well. Whether I use something in my bottle or not, I eat a gel after two hours and every hour afterwards. The point is to eat something on a regular basis so that you don't run out of gas.

[ptourkin]

Starving yourself on the bike and binge eating afterwards will cause the issues you are having. Your blood sugar is all over the place. You'll gain unhealthy weight as well. Whether I use something in my bottle or not, I eat a gel after two hours and every hour afterwards. The point is to eat something on a regular basis so that you don't run out of gas.

Yes. I was going to say something similar. Regardless of how long I'll be out, my first bottle is one part Skratch, two parts Carbo Pro and it has to be done in the first hour. That means I have some hydration (although you should also drink plain water when getting liquid nutrition) and 300 calories in the tank. Reasonable restoration of glycogen stores within 25 minutes of your finish will help your next ride and prevent a starved binge.

[tommyrod74]

I'll preface with the information that I'm a Registered Dietitian with a MS in Human Nutrition, and a full-time cycling coach and sports RD.

If you're serious about addressing the issues with your diet (and they are present, from the information you've given), you will seek out a professional to help you:

1) Identify exactly what you are currently doing.

2) Decide on clear, measurable, quantifiable, reasonable goals (and a timeframe to reach them).

3) Formulate a plan to get you from where you are to where you want to be.

Anything else is just a waste of time - you're going to get a ton of information on a message board, some good, some bad, all well-intentioned - and you'll be more confused than before.

It's your health and your time. Best to take it seriously.

[CampyorBust]

what's a vegitarion? :D

Parlez-vous français?:)

I'll preface with the information that I'm a Registered Dietitian with a MS in Human Nutrition, and a full-time cycling coach and sports RD.

If you're serious about addressing the issues with your diet (and they are present, from the information you've given), you will seek out a professional to help you:

1) Identify exactly what you are currently doing.

2) Decide on clear, measurable, quantifiable, reasonable goals (and a timeframe to reach them).

3) Formulate a plan to get you from where you are to where you want to be.

Anything else is just a waste of time - you're going to get a ton of information on a message board, some good, some bad, all well-intentioned - and you'll be more confused than before.

It's your health and your time. Best to take it seriously.

A sincere Thank you all, this has been very helpfull. :o I will be seeking professional help.