Is the tubular bond strong enough?

[kgreene10]

Your sage advice is needed, oh anointed ones, masters of the dark art, gurus of the encased latex.

I have been trying Carogna tape on brand new Aeolus carbon rims with Vittoria CX III tires. The first two applications were obvious and complete failures. I have been in close contact with the owner of Effeto Mariposa that makes Carogna and its US distributor. Both have been helpful but are mystified by my experience. More on that later in an expanded post.

I'm on my third try with the tape. I have followed the instructions to perfection each time and this third time was no different. It's supposed to be good to go in 24 hours but it wasn't even close. So now I've waited another 8 days and the bond seems to be better.

Here's the question that I need guidance on for the moment: How do I know when the bond if good enough? BTW this is for road racing and crit use.

A review of online materials tells me that it shouldn't budge under "moderate pressure" with the tubular completely deflated and that the "edges are the most important part". Okay, the edges I get. But what counts as "moderate pressure". Can someone in the know relate this to the amount of double-thumb pressure we use for other things I might be familiar with?

For instance, is it about the amount of pressure needed to get the last few inches of loose-fitting clincher bead on a a rim -- say, Conti GP 4000s II on HED Belgiums? Those go on pretty easy for me and it's a pressure that I know well. I need both of my skinny thumbs to do it, but it's no more pressure that I could easily exert with a single thumb and there's not even a hint of wincing or change in facial expression. By comparison, mounting Bontrager R3 tires on that same rim requires several grunts or more and a running start. I can't imagine we are talking that amount of pressure to test a tubular or, at least, I know that the tire would roll off easily with the current tape-job and that amount of pressure.

Looking forward to your advice.

[ultraman6970]

Hi i get stuff lost in the translation ok??? From what you are saying you put the tape, and eventohught you waited like 24 hours or whatever, the tubulars get off rims applying pressure with the thumbs????

After applying the tape did you inflate the tubbies at 80 psi or something?? and then waited 24 hours?

Asking this obvious thing because if the tubulars are new, you mount them w/o any glue and then you put 100 psi or more there is almost no way for you to get the tubulars off the rim unless you are a really big guy like hulk or the thiing.

Im not famliar with the tape you are talking about niether the rims. But yes some tubulars are not perfect fit in the rims, but once you put air to them they mold more and more to the surface of the rim.

IS hard to know what are you doing or if those tubulars are over expanded, over stretched. Thing that happened to me.

How did you stretch the tubulars??

There is a reason the majority of the people use glue, so know knows what is going on with that tape you know, i've used tufo tape and that thing is so good that not even hulk will get the tubular off the rim. But honestly if that thing needs 24 hours to dry that sucks... probably needs less (liability), with glu you are good to go un a couple of hours, over night you are good to go... 24 hours sure that is super glued.

My advice? Learn to use regular glue like real men do :P

[redir]

I guess it depends on the tire rim combination but even in the most difficult case I'd say you would want more pressure then that to remove a glued tubular, or at least check it's veracity. In fact I CAN'T remove the tubulars that I glue on unless I use a tire lever or screw driver. That's probably over kill for road (not cyclocross which is where I learned to glue tires on) and more then 'moderate' but to answer your question in my opinion...no. Moderate doesn't equal the pressure it takes to mount a tire even in difficult situations, it's more then that.

[cachagua]

When the tires came off, did the tape stick to them, or to the rim? In other words where is the bond failing. You might check whichever surface, tire or rim, to see if there's a foreign substance that's not allowing the stickum to stick?

Also, I didn't review online materials for this, 'cause it was before online materials were invented -- but I always checked the bond with the tires fully inflated. (Figured, that was how I was gonna ride them.) And you get better leverage to push on them when they're inflated, so it's a more valid test.

I'll second the above-described test. I used to put both thumbs next to each other against the tire, and push as hard as I could -- and if I couldn't get the tire off the rim, well, I couldn't re-glue it, could I. Good enough. In couple of decades of riding sew-ups, I didn't encounter any ambiguous situations -- either I did it right and it stuck like a b*st*rd, or (rarer) it peeled off fairly readily and something was clearly not sticky enough.

Also I was taught to inflate tires to riding pressure immediately when I stuck them in place, and leave them at pressure until they had a good bond (few hours, overnight, like previous posts said). The tire's tension around the rim increases a lot when you pump it up. I don't know if the Effeto Mariposa people suggest this, but I'd try it anyway.

[ultraman6970]

If you dont pump the tubulars after installation they wont "constric" around the whole radius of the rim. Since I really dont know if you are pumping the tubulars after installation is hard to tell if this is the problem or not.

[pavel]

Man if it's taking you 8+ days for an adhesive bond to be strong enough you are waaaay better off with glue imo.

[oldpotatoe]

Your sage advice is needed, oh anointed ones, masters of the dark art, gurus of the encased latex.

I have been trying Carogna tape on brand new Aeolus carbon rims with Vittoria CX III tires. The first two applications were obvious and complete failures. I have been in close contact with the owner of Effeto Mariposa that makes Carogna and its US distributor. Both have been helpful but are mystified by my experience. More on that later in an expanded post.

I'm on my third try with the tape. I have followed the instructions to perfection each time and this third time was no different. It's supposed to be good to go in 24 hours but it wasn't even close. So now I've waited another 8 days and the bond seems to be better.

Here's the question that I need guidance on for the moment: How do I know when the bond if good enough? BTW this is for road racing and crit use.

A review of online materials tells me that it shouldn't budge under "moderate pressure" with the tubular completely deflated and that the "edges are the most important part". Okay, the edges I get. But what counts as "moderate pressure". Can someone in the know relate this to the amount of double-thumb pressure we use for other things I might be familiar with?

For instance, is it about the amount of pressure needed to get the last few inches of loose-fitting clincher bead on a a rim -- say, Conti GP 4000s II on HED Belgiums? Those go on pretty easy for me and it's a pressure that I know well. I need both of my skinny thumbs to do it, but it's no more pressure that I could easily exert with a single thumb and there's not even a hint of wincing or change in facial expression. By comparison, mounting Bontrager R3 tires on that same rim requires several grunts or more and a running start. I can't imagine we are talking that amount of pressure to test a tubular or, at least, I know that the tire would roll off easily with the current tape-job and that amount of pressure.

Looking forward to your advice.

You throw it in the trash and use either Panaracer or Vittoria glue..

3 times and no soap? I'd guess that it's time for more traditional methods, IMHO, of course.

[nm87710]

Good luck - it's no fun racing and wondering if you'll tire will stay on.

[AngryScientist]

Here's my theory about tape. assuming you're using new gear, both the surface of the rim bed and the base tape can very well have unfriendly residue on them, mold release agents, etc.

when you use glue, it contains solvents that eat right through this stuff and make the bond to the base material. since tape uses a "drier" process, there is no solvents that eat through the residual stuff that may be present preventing a strong bond to the base material, both the rim bed and the base tape.

if you're insistent on using tape, i'd pull everything apart, scuff up the rim bed with sandpaper and do the same with the tire base tape. that will give you the best chance of glue adherence.

personally, even if what you've got now is "strong enough" - i wouldnt trust if if i had any doubt in my mind, and that will be in the back of your head every time you ride the wheels. why risk that?

i'd just glue 'em.

[djg21]

Back in The Day when we all raced tubulars refs would come by and check every tire when we lined up to see if it was glued on well. If they could start to roll your tire off you ran to get another wheel - quickly. Rolling a tire in a race and taking out other riders was the worst peloton sin...

Unfortunately they don't do that anymore and your much more likely to be taken out by some phred who didn't know how to glue a tire properly.

With the tire inflated to your desired pressure just hold the wheel from the side putting two thumbs on the sidewall and push with your thumbs - hard. Not trying to take the tire off though. Check several spots around the rim. If it starts to roll up and off anywhere it's a no go.

My team mechanic used 3M Fast Tack trim adhesive and we never had a tire roll on the line or in a race.

Good luck - it's no fun racing and wondering if you'll tire will stay on.

I rolled a tire in a Crit. It had been checked pre-race (which was not all that common), but it also was 100 degrees. I didn't take anyone out as I was in the final lap of the race and luckily there was no one to my outside as I cornered. I just skidded and slid on my side across the road. It sucked. I had road rash from my ankle to my hip. That was the last time I used Fast Tack.

[carpediemracing]

First, remember that if you roll a tire it'll be under duress, like if you really want the tire to stay on the rim. Think of a sudden maneuver to avoid a car turning left directly in front of you, or a hair pin corner on a descent, etc.

What you don't want is a 90% bond that fails WHEN YOU NEED IT MOST.

Would you use a brake line on your car that only gives out when you put 100% pressure on the brake pedal?

When you check a tire it should be just inflated enough so that your fingers don't slide off of it too easily (but really the bond should be 100% with 0 psi - see note about "WHEN YOU NEED IT MOST", like say you flat in the middle of a hard, unplanned, maneuver).

Think of the absolutely hardest clincher tire you've ever mounted, the one where you decided not to pull out the tire levers but you did it because you knew that using 8 fingers to pull the bead over is better than trying to push with 2 thumbs (because that's true). Your tubular tire should resist such force 100%, with total confidence. I don't have a mechanical scale but I remember as kids we were fooling around with a mechanical scale and we could get the thing to read something like 250 lbs with our hands.

If you don't think you'd risk your life on your glue/tape/whatever job, don't, because it could literally be your life on the line.

[LegendRider]

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/interview-chip-howat-tubular-tire-expert-32128/

Executive summary: Use Vittoria glue and make sure it's well-bonded at the edges.

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/interview-chip-howat-tubular-tire-expert-32128/

Executive summary: Use Vittoria glue and make sure it's well-bonded at the edges.

Put 3 people in a room and ask how to glue a tubie and you will get 4 opinions. BUT 3-4 days to glue on a tubular tire is nutz..IMHO.

And like rolling resistance charts, crank stiffness charts and contact glue charts. The differences between highest to lowest are teeny. Like using aluminum chainrings bolts 'cuz they are lighter', yup, but that doesn't mean the steel ones are 'heavy'.

I like Pana, have never rolled a tire and a lot of the Keirin big boys in Japan use it also.

But bottom line, seeing the OPs experience with tape, it isn't anything..learn to glue on your tubies with glue...executive summary...

[FlashUNC]

Something is wrong. Sounds like attempt #4 is coming up.

As others mentioned, if you have doubts at all, last place you want something to go wrong is leaning hard on one in a corner.

[LegendRider]

Put 3 people in a room and ask how to glue a tubie and you will get 4 opinions. BUT 3-4 days to glue on a tubular tire is nutz..IMHO.

And like rolling resistance charts, crank stiffness charts and contact glue charts. The differences between highest to lowest are teeny. Like using aluminum chainrings bolts 'cuz they are lighter', yup, but that doesn't mean the steel ones are 'heavy'.

I like Pana, have never rolled a tire and a lot of the Keirin big boys in Japan use it also.

But bottom line, seeing the OPs experience with tape, it isn't anything..learn to glue on your tubies with glue...executive summary...

It's all academic to me - I gave up on tubulars years ago. But, I was a little alarmed to see that 3M Fast Tack was only 60% as strong as the best since that's what I used in the 90s (with lots of other people).

[sfscott]

Zinn has a lot of discussion and experience with this tape.

[Pastashop]

I used tubulars a decent amount awhile back, even patched the tires myself. I'm pretty good at figuring out the mechanical and the chemical stuff. I even like tinkering with bikes for the sake of tinkering. Never had any issues with poorly glued tires. And I still switched to clinchers. Just sayin'.

[11.4]

This brand of tape seems to have been getting mixed responses. Some people have no problems with it, though I can't say I know first-hand how tough a judge they are about the strength of the glue joint. For my part, I've used it several times and not had consistent results. Leaving aside price, if it works really well it can be worth it on a convenience basis.

Let's assume the OP did inflate the tire hard so the adhesive would have a chance to work as it's supposed to. We still have a few issues that create variability among users. First, the tape has to be installed right side up. If not, it doesn't work as well. That's user error. Second, the tire and rim bed profiles have to be a pretty good match because the tape only carries so much glue and it can't fill a void, either in the center or on the edges of the bed. This I suspect is the most common reason for poor performance. Third, some tires have very coarse base tapes, others have fine fabrics, and some have fabrics that have been calendared with whatever the sidewalls are coated in (not necessarily a latex any longer). That base tape sucks up a lot of adhesive and if the adhesive is not directly between the tape and the surface of the base tape, it isn't doing much of anything. And nobody I know of has this tape in use (outside of the manufacturer) for more than a year or so, so longevity is simply an unknown. And longevity is not just a matter of whether the joint fails, but also whether it can separate and reattach, which is what a tubular joint needs to do (and why we don't use epoxies and why adhesives like the reformulated Fast Tack no longer work).

These guys really did think out the issue well. It appears to have different adhesives on each side of the tape, one optimized for hard flat surfaces in the rim bed and one optimized for a fabric base tape. Cute. They can support more adhesive than most other tapes in the market, so the joint is less likely to be starved. They also use a pressure actuation adhesive rather than one that simply depends on evaporation of solvent, so the tape is less likely to deteriorate in storage or simply be inconsistent when you use it. And there are other ideas at work in here as well. But fundamentally, if the tape can't meet the needs of your particular rim, tire, and gluing job, it isn't for you.

I'm just using Mastik One and sticking with it for now. I found one rim and tire combination that worked acceptably with this tape, but I can glue well and I haven't found a tape that can beat it.

[pbarry]

Fas-Tack seems to build up thicker, and never hardens completely, so after gluing a few tires on the same rim, you've got a build up of soft glue that needs to be removed before a new application. [Understanding this is the case with all glues, but with F-T, it seems more critical.]

That's my theory anyway, after rolling a tire doing a low speed maneuver, where the front tire was under a lot of tension. I've moved on to Panaracer.

Edit: Just reading 11.4's post--Did not know Fas-Tack was reformulated. I was using it 20 years ago..

[eBAUMANN]

pretty surprised to hear this, as I've had ZERO issues with adhesion using the carogna tape, works as well or better than glue in my experiences.

did the tape adhere to either surface? or neither?

my guess would be the base tape of the tire...though i have friends who have carogna'd vittoria tires for cx with no issues.

very mysterious indeed...

[redir]

I remember when people used to use Fast Tack but they changed the formula at some point and I think that's when a lot of people started crashing. I never used it but that's what I heard back in the day. No one as far as I know uses it anymore so it's best not to think about it.

[oldpotatoe]

I remember when people used to use Fast Tack but they changed the formula at some point and I think that's when a lot of people started crashing. I never used it but that's what I heard back in the day. No one as far as I know uses it anymore so it's best not to think about it.

Oh plenty of people still use it. I heard about it all the time in the shop. Mostly, 'gee tire came off really easy, what did you glue it with?'...then sold him Pana or Vittoria.,

[kgreene10]

OP here. Thanks for all the responses.

Let's dispel a few ideas. As I mentioned, I followed the directions to perfection each attempt. After the first attempt, I was in close contact with the owner of Effeto Mariposa that makes Carogna and the owner of Cantitoe Road that is the US distributor. I confirmed my process with them and also confirmed that the tape should work perfectly with the particular wheel/tire combo I have (Bontrager Aeolus 5 D3 and Vittoria Corsa CX III). Obviously, the tape was oriented correctly, surfaces cleaned with recommended cleanser, tires pumped appropriately etc. For the third attempt, a friend who is head wrench for an LBS and former pro-team mechanic did the taping, and his process was exactly like mine to the letter because we both followed the directions.

On the first and second attempt, the tape pulled away from both the tubular and the rim in large sections, even after sitting for more than a week. On this third attempt, it peels away from the tubular -- not as easily as the first two times, but too easily given what I surmise from the answers to my question. Thanks to those who did answer.

FWIW, the first two attempts were during the hot summer months and the last one just now in the spring. All attempts were done indoors, of course, but it was still hotter inside in summer than it is now. In any case, the temp was always in the range dictated by the instructions.

It's certainly possible that there is a bad batch of Carogna out there, though I'm sure Effeto Mariposa has good quality testing procedures.

I'm disappointed because my decision to get tubulars was partly dictated by the creation of this new tape that purports to be so much better than prior versions. Many people have had great experiences. Before taking the plunge, I even wrote to Lennard Zinn to ask about the tape, prompting him to write about it glowingly in his column and to post the video that some of you know.

I'll have to decide whether I want to deal with glue -- just one more thing in a busy life. BTW, 3M Fast Tack has been discontinued. You can still get it online from a few sources, so if you are a fan (despite the finding that it hold 60% as well as Matik One), you had better stock up.

I want to underscore that the owners of both Effeto Mariposa and Cantitoe Road were very responsive and helpful, even getting on the phone with me from a trade show in Vegas. They supplied me with four free rolls after the first two failed, and followed up by email. They remain mystified by my negative experience with the product.

[carpediemracing]

Gluing a tubular:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-glue-tubular.html

Removing a tubular:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-removing-tubular.html

Last tubular I removed was a flat and it took me about 30 minutes to remove it, in my bike workshop room. I didn't glue it, I bought the wheel from another racer.

Rolling a tubular:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/08/equipment-rolling-tubulars.html

[carpediemracing]

Also, when USCF checked tubulars, it was pretty aggressive. It was before good clinchers came out.

I was at the line at Harlem, an infamously dangerous crit, and this guy was just monstering tires off rims left and right. I'd say he pulled literally half the riders in the first two rows at the start. He pulled one tire off pretty easily, guy near me. The rider protested that it was a clincher. And so it was. I was absolutely horrified.

I was distinctly nervous when the guy came to me, because, you know, although I tested my tubular tires, I certainly can't roll a fully inflated CLINCHER tire with my bare hands.

He checked both tires. Fine.

Phew.

I don't recall much of the race, to be honest.

USCF stopped checking tires because then if a tire rolled they could be sued. I wish they did equipment inspections still. It would save some road rash, based on all the rolled tires I see at races.

[cachagua]

Ha! This official -- was he a loanshark, in his day job? That's some squeeze.

[11.4]

OP here. Thanks for all the responses.

Let's dispel a few ideas. As I mentioned, I followed the directions to perfection each attempt. After the first attempt, I was in close contact with the owner of Effeto Mariposa that makes Carogna and the owner of Cantitoe Road that is the US distributor. I confirmed my process with them and also confirmed that the tape should work perfectly with the particular wheel/tire combo I have (Bontrager Aeolus 5 D3 and Vittoria Corsa CX III). Obviously, the tape was oriented correctly, surfaces cleaned with recommended cleanser, tires pumped appropriately etc. For the third attempt, a friend who is head wrench for an LBS and former pro-team mechanic did the taping, and his process was exactly like mine to the letter because we both followed the directions.

On the first and second attempt, the tape pulled away from both the tubular and the rim in large sections, even after sitting for more than a week. On this third attempt, it peels away from the tubular -- not as easily as the first two times, but too easily given what I surmise from the answers to my question. Thanks to those who did answer.

FWIW, the first two attempts were during the hot summer months and the last one just now in the spring. All attempts were done indoors, of course, but it was still hotter inside in summer than it is now. In any case, the temp was always in the range dictated by the instructions.

It's certainly possible that there is a bad batch of Carogna out there, though I'm sure Effeto Mariposa has good quality testing procedures.

I'm disappointed because my decision to get tubulars was partly dictated by the creation of this new tape that purports to be so much better than prior versions. Many people have had great experiences. Before taking the plunge, I even wrote to Lennard Zinn to ask about the tape, prompting him to write about it glowingly in his column and to post the video that some of you know.

I'll have to decide whether I want to deal with glue -- just one more thing in a busy life. BTW, 3M Fast Tack has been discontinued. You can still get it online from a few sources, so if you are a fan (despite the finding that it hold 60% as well as Matik One), you had better stock up.

I want to underscore that the owners of both Effeto Mariposa and Cantitoe Road were very responsive and helpful, even getting on the phone with me from a trade show in Vegas. They supplied me with four free rolls after the first two failed, and followed up by email. They remain mystified by my negative experience with the product.

Didn't mean to question your technique. In traditional glue jobs, half of the failures are pilot error, so it just naturally goes that way. I've tried the stuff several times and I'd like to think I know what I'm doing when it comes to making a mess with tubulars, and I couldn't get it to work consistently. On two pairs, one tire glued on fine, even though rims and tires were identical. On two other pairs, it didn't hold well enough for me to keep it. So you aren't alone.

I do think there's a huge range of "acceptableness" in terms of glue jobs. I see people who think Tufo Tape on a Mavic Io track wheel is just fine and think that when the tire rolled, someone hit them. I see cross riders who have to cut their tires off to remove them, and still think that the glue job is insufficient. This, more than the glue job itself, may be the key variable here. I'm a picky gluer and this tape doesn't seem to do well enough, consistently, to satisfy me. That doesn't mean you may not be perfectly justified in your level of "acceptableness." There's no particular test. And some people think that testing an inflated tire is sufficient; I want that glue joint to hold more than ever when I've punctured and tire pressure isn't holding it on.

You tried and you did everything properly. Back to Mastik One.

[kgreene10]

Thanks for all the advice. The collective brain around here is always helpful.

Without the ease of the tape in the mix, I waver between wanting to run away from tubulars and thinking that it can't be all that time-consuming and dangerous to glue your own, given that hundreds of thousands of riders have done it for generations and lived to gripe about it.

[pbarry]

Thanks for all the advice. The collective brain around here is always helpful.

Without the ease of the tape in the mix, I waver between wanting to run away from tubulars and thinking that it can't be all that time-consuming and dangerous to glue your own, given that hundreds of thousands of riders have done it for generations and lived to gripe about it.

Wait, wait, ease??? :eek:

Don't run away. If you are as careful with gluing as you were with taping, you'll be fine. :)

[rwsaunders]

Wait, wait, ease??? :eek:

Don't run away. If you are as careful with gluing as you were with taping, you'll be fine. :)

Roger that. If a schmuck like me can make it work, you'll be fine and you'll only get better with practice.

[etu]

I waver between wanting to run away from tubulars and thinking that it can't be all that time-consuming and dangerous to glue your own, given that hundreds of thousands of riders have done it for generations and lived to gripe about it.

Don't give up! I chose to glue as it was part of of mystique for me. Started using tubulars last year and have glued 4 pairs now. The actual gluing process isn't bad at all if you set it up right. For me key is a good IPA and a comfortable stool with either a little music or a Warrior's game on the radio. It can be a very relaxing 15-20min per night (I do follow the 3 day routine) which seems to be well tolerated by the family.