? for Ti Designs

[bironi]

Perhaps others may chime in on this question. I'm wondering if you have coached anyone who was a masher that you were able to convert to a spinner? Just something I've been curious about for quite some time. Old habits are hard to break.
Thanks much.

[AngryScientist]

Old habits are hard to break.


Haven't you ever seen Rocky II bironi pal? Micky successfully teaches Rock-o to fight right handed after a lifetime of fighting southpaw to throw Creed off.

Of course it can be done!

http://www.debold.com/webdesign/webdesignsix/olivier/gallery/images/Rocky%20vs.%20Apollo%20Creed.jpg

[sandyrs]

Excited to see Ed's response to this one...

[AngryScientist]

Let's face it, Ed is good, but he's no Mick.

"Stop mashing and spin, you son of a bitch"

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/003/176/331/burgess_meredith_mickey_goldmill_rocky_crop_650x44 0.png?1369167190

[FlashUNC]

Rocky III was the greater adjustment for him as a fighter, imo.

[Lewis Moon]

Can't speak as a coach, but I retrained from a masher to a spinner. It took a while, but it stuck to the point I no longer need a cadence meter. You just have to make it a priority. I still have to consciously work at it on hills.

Some people can quit smoking pretty easily too...

[AngryScientist]

everyone can change


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/77/50/ac/7750aceea3237169033d2587ae1fdaf0.jpg

[leftyfreak]

Let's face it, Ed is good, but he's no Mick.

"Stop mashing and spin, you son of a bitch"

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/003/176/331/burgess_meredith_mickey_goldmill_rocky_crop_650x44 0.png?1369167190

Well, that explains why he kept muttering "Gonna fly now" when we were riding yesterday. I thought it had something to do with the two fruit croissants and the two cider donuts he ate mid-ride, but I guess I was wrong.

More seriously, Ed is likely to say that it's not about mashing or spinning per se, it's about using the biggest muscle groups appropriately. Glutes to push down and quads to kick across the top of the pedal stroke. Generally speaking, glutes are high torque, so good for climbing and lower cadence, whereas kicking the quads is good for generating leg speed, suitable for speed on the flats and usually higher cadence. Different ways of pedaling the bike for different situations--it's not an either/or situation. Get good at both and know when to use the different techniques.

[bironi]

I'm not sure I ever made it beyond the original Rocky. I can't remember where I rode a week ago.

[FlashUNC]

http://i.imgur.com/7Z5MciL.png

[AngryScientist]

http://i.giphy.com/11IRfBXYw64gZW.gif

[donevwil]

Excited to see Ed's response to this one...

Same here, my wife's a masher and does not appreciate my attempts at "coaching" her.

[berserk87]

I don't know what brought down all of the Rocky memes, but I say keep it going amongst all threads and call this week "Rocky Week".

[laupsi]

Perhaps others may chime in on this question. I'm wondering if you have coached anyone who was a masher that you were able to convert to a spinner? Just something I've been curious about for quite some time. Old habits are hard to break.
Thanks much.

Did it ever occur to you to just ride a smaller gear?

[alembical]

It sounds way too simple, but I switched over to a compact a few years back and it has definitely increased my cadence. 50 x 11 is still plenty big for me, but I find myself spinning a little more in general than I had in the past. I would have bet that I would have just been using gear up and running the same gear inches, but it does not seem that way.

[OtayBW]

Let's face it, Ed is good, but he's no Mick.

"Stop mashing and spin, you son of a bitch"

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/003/176/331/burgess_meredith_mickey_goldmill_rocky_crop_650x44 0.png?1369167190
I think there is a certain similarity........:eek:

[Ti Designs]

Think of the pedal stroke in terms of two muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes are the strongest and widest muscle, they're short and have attachment points pretty far down. The result is lots of torque, but not much leg speed. Quads are a much longer muscle, the connective tissue comes over the patella and has a close attachment, so there's lots of leg speed but not much torque. While the two muscles are effective at different parts of the pedal stroke, using the two muscles is not mutually exclusive.

The glutes extend from the hip, so they can only push down. Most people think of "mashing" as only pushing down, so we'll call that a method of isolating just glutes. As the extension is from the hip, there's probably lots of upper body movement - watch Eddy Merckx climbing...

The quads extend from the knee, so they push over the top of the pedal stroke - think forward, not down. There should also be no upper body movement 'cause in extending forward the rider is solidifying their position in the saddle. Quads can generate lots of leg speed, but very little torque, which is the reason most mashers only use one muscle group. Try to push the same resistance with your quads as you can with your glutes and it'll fail in seconds. It's the path of least resistance, people use the muscle that does the job, so they use the glutes only...

The way I see it, you've got both, why not learn to use 'em? Quads have one big advantage over the glutes, they can deliver a very wide range of RPMs, which means they can accelerate the bike. On the flats when the speed can change rapidly, or in a paceline when you need to match the changes of the person in front of you, the quads are better at doing the job. The other compelling argument is fatigue - any muscle does it, having two motors means you can burn one and still get home (before it gets dark). On our gap ride in Vermont, my friend was all done climbing for the day, but we were still miles from where we needed to be. We took the flat way back, in the mid 20's at high cadence - not bad for being "all done" on the hills.



Did it ever occur to you to just ride a smaller gear?

And then there's the opinion that you just pedal...

[leftyfreak]

Think of the pedal stroke in terms of two muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes are the strongest and widest muscle, they're short and have attachment points pretty far down. The result is lots of torque, but not much leg speed. Quads are a much longer muscle, the connective tissue comes over the patella and has a close attachment, so there's lots of leg speed but not much torque. While the two muscles are effective at different parts of the pedal stroke, using the two muscles is not mutually exclusive.

The glutes extend from the hip, so they can only push down. Most people think of "mashing" as only pushing down, so we'll call that a method of isolating just glutes. As the extension is from the hip, there's probably lots of upper body movement - watch Eddy Merckx climbing...

The quads extend from the knee, so they push over the top of the pedal stroke - think forward, not down. There should also be no upper body movement 'cause in extending forward the rider is solidifying their position in the saddle. Quads can generate lots of leg speed, but very little torque, which is the reason most mashers only use one muscle group. Try to push the same resistance with your quads as you can with your glutes and it'll fail in seconds. It's the path of least resistance, people use the muscle that does the job, so they use the glutes only...

The way I see it, you've got both, why not learn to use 'em? Quads have one big advantage over the glutes, they can deliver a very wide range of RPMs, which means they can accelerate the bike. On the flats when the speed can change rapidly, or in a paceline when you need to match the changes of the person in front of you, the quads are better at doing the job. The other compelling argument is fatigue - any muscle does it, having two motors means you can burn one and still get home (before it gets dark). On our gap ride in Vermont, my friend was all done climbing for the day, but we were still miles from where we needed to be. We took the flat way back, in the mid 20's at high cadence - not bad for being "all done" on the hills.





And then there's the opinion that you just pedal...

Well, that explains why he kept muttering "Gonna fly now" when we were riding yesterday. I thought it had something to do with the two fruit croissants and the two cider donuts he ate mid-ride, but I guess I was wrong.

More seriously, Ed is likely to say that it's not about mashing or spinning per se, it's about using the biggest muscle groups appropriately. Glutes to push down and quads to kick across the top of the pedal stroke. Generally speaking, glutes are high torque, so good for climbing and lower cadence, whereas kicking the quads is good for generating leg speed, suitable for speed on the flats and usually higher cadence. Different ways of pedaling the bike for different situations--it's not an either/or situation. Get good at both and know when to use the different techniques.

So, I give the correct answer more than three hours ago, and no one even acknowledges it? Who am I, Rodney Dangerfield? :D

[laupsi]

Think of the pedal stroke in terms of two muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes are the strongest and widest muscle, they're short and have attachment points pretty far down. The result is lots of torque, but not much leg speed. Quads are a much longer muscle, the connective tissue comes over the patella and has a close attachment, so there's lots of leg speed but not much torque. While the two muscles are effective at different parts of the pedal stroke, using the two muscles is not mutually exclusive.

The glutes extend from the hip, so they can only push down. Most people think of "mashing" as only pushing down, so we'll call that a method of isolating just glutes. As the extension is from the hip, there's probably lots of upper body movement - watch Eddy Merckx climbing...

The quads extend from the knee, so they push over the top of the pedal stroke - think forward, not down. There should also be no upper body movement 'cause in extending forward the rider is solidifying their position in the saddle. Quads can generate lots of leg speed, but very little torque, which is the reason most mashers only use one muscle group. Try to push the same resistance with your quads as you can with your glutes and it'll fail in seconds. It's the path of least resistance, people use the muscle that does the job, so they use the glutes only...

The way I see it, you've got both, why not learn to use 'em? Quads have one big advantage over the glutes, they can deliver a very wide range of RPMs, which means they can accelerate the bike. On the flats when the speed can change rapidly, or in a paceline when you need to match the changes of the person in front of you, the quads are better at doing the job. The other compelling argument is fatigue - any muscle does it, having two motors means you can burn one and still get home (before it gets dark). On our gap ride in Vermont, my friend was all done climbing for the day, but we were still miles from where we needed to be. We took the flat way back, in the mid 20's at high cadence - not bad for being "all done" on the hills.





And then there's the opinion that you just pedal...

yes folks, it's feeding time again at the zoo!

[Ti Designs]

yes folks, it's feeding time again at the zoo!


I'll admit that I'm so stupid that I need to learn how to pedal a bike, but how dumb do you have to be to click on a thread titled "? for Ti Designs" when you know what it's gonna be about, and clearly you don't want to hear it?

I think we should settle this on the bike. What say you, racer boy???

[sandyrs]

I'll admit that I'm so stupid that I need to learn how to pedal a bike, but how dumb do you have to be to click on a thread titled "? for Ti Designs" when you know what it's gonna be about, and clearly you don't want to hear it?

I think we should settle this on the bike. What say you, racer boy???

After all, note laupsi's signature!

[ctcyclistbob]

So, I give the correct answer more than three hours ago, and no one even acknowledges it? Who am I, Rodney Dangerfield? :D

No Respect ...

[pbarry]

I love Ed, but he needs someone to mange his social media, including PL. Too much lag time answering this one. ;)

[firerescuefin]

I think we should settle this on the bike. What say you, racer boy???

Made me think of one of my favorite movie quotes (of my youth). Changed a few words for the sake of
"Advancing the thread" ;)


"You and me, we're gonna have a race. Today. After school. Three o'clock. In the parking lot. You try and run, I'm gonna track you down. You go to a Mod, it's only gonna get worse. You sneak home, I'm gonna be under your bed. I want you to understand something Laupsi I don't like people knowing about me, in fact I don't like it when ANYONE knows about me. So you can take that Garmin of yours and wipe off your dick with it! You made me mad Laupsi... now I'm gunna have to do something to work it off..."

[laupsi]

I'll admit that I'm so stupid that I need to learn how to pedal a bike, but how dumb do you have to be to click on a thread titled "? for Ti Designs" when you know what it's gonna be about, and clearly you don't want to hear it?

I think we should settle this on the bike. What say you, racer boy???

Oh hum, I'm tired. Think I'm going to bed!

[leftyfreak]

I'll admit that I'm so stupid that I need to learn how to pedal a bike, but how dumb do you have to be to click on a thread titled "? for Ti Designs" when you know what it's gonna be about, and clearly you don't want to hear it?

I think we should settle this on the bike. What say you, racer boy???

Now, I'm not generally one to encourage this kind of playground antics, but in this case, there is an excellent opportunity to extend the Rocky connection. Ti Designs and laupsi are like Rocky and Ivan Drago. Like over-the-hill Rocky, with his old-school training--running up the snow covered Siberian mountain and doing ab crunches off the edge of the barn loft--Ti Designs is riding his fixed gear through the snow of Boston and doing single-leg pedal stroke drills on his trainer in his borderline habitable basement. Drago and laupsi utilize all the fanciest, most up-to-date, scientifically proven, number-based, training.

Lest anyone has forgotten, by the end of the movie, Rocky and Drago have both demonstrated immense skill and fought with honor, and have even earned each others' respect. Could this happen on the Paceline? Nah, Rocky is a fictional story, after all...

[Ti Designs]

After all, note laupsi's signature!

"Why Science? You can test it silly!"

That's the thing about the internet, you can say anything and it's never going to be tested. They can be questioned, and Laupsi has the right to question the value of anything I say here.

Allow me to return the favor...

A while back he posted this: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=154733 So I found this: https://www.usacycling.org/results/?compid=56920 All the latest technology and daily contact with your coach, and that's it? I work with idiots who don't even know how to pedal a bike, and their results are far better.

[laupsi]

Mr TiD, you have some axe to grind haven't you?

Suppose I were to accept this invitation to a race, what does that prove? Proclaiming you get better results teaching folks how to pedal based solely on my past race results is absurd. Yea, that's real science.

Nope, I understand you need constant social reinforcement for whatever psychological disorder you harbor. Obviously this is a very big deal for you, and taking the time to research a part of my past and posting to the forum, very classy. You are to be commended, spending your time oh so wisely when not "teaching" pedal technique or working in the cozy bike shop.

Nope, I stand firm in my beliefs and I'll continue to post on what I believe is sensible scrutiny of your untested, narcissistic and long winded, baseless postings. You are pathetic , your recent post only serves to prove me correct, again. Yes, the world simply doens't understand you, you're brilliant. Just keep the faith brother, keep the faith.

[numbskull]

Give it up, Lapusi, you are embarrassing yourself.

The OP asked TiD, not you, a question and TiD answered it as well as he could. He was trying to be helpful and constructive. Why do you clearly feel a need (or compulsion?) to interfere. Furthermore, what does your choice to do so in a demeaning and destructive manner say about you?

The response you got was well deserved. You would do well to learn from it.

PS. Do us all a favor and drop the specious use of the word "science" to falsely bolster your position.......it gives the discipline a bad name. The practice of science requires an open mind and a willingness to question one's own beliefs. You would do well to practice what you preach.

[Ti Designs]

Mr TiD, you have some axe to grind haven't you?

No, not really. You'll notice I never entered your thread, nor do I ridicule you for how you train. I'm not the least bit impressed with you, as you clearly are with yourself, but I was willing to leave that off the forum. Every time I post something (which some people value), you feel the need to chime in. My response was simply to state that I know who you are, I'm not at all impressed, please go away.

If it's a scientific test you want, we could test how effectively you pedal vs. how effectively my students pedal. It would be an interesting test between someone who assumes they know how to pedal vs. someone who tests and has spent time working on how they pedal.

My point in racing you is that I'm not some gifted athlete. I claim that a power meter after the age of 40 is depressing, 'cause my power output is pathetic. If I'm fast on a bike it's because I've learned how to pedal the bike, something you don't see the need for. As a forum full of aging, underpowered members, I think that has real value here - not to you of course. And I probably wouldn't race you, we're the same age, both raced for years, the oputcome would say nothing. I would have my women's team rip your legs off.

[leftyfreak]

Now, I'm not generally one to encourage this kind of playground antics, but in this case, there is an excellent opportunity to extend the Rocky connection. Ti Designs and laupsi are like Rocky and Ivan Drago. Like over-the-hill Rocky, with his old-school training--running up the snow covered Siberian mountain and doing ab crunches off the edge of the barn loft--Ti Designs is riding his fixed gear through the snow of Boston and doing single-leg pedal stroke drills on his trainer in his borderline habitable basement. Drago and laupsi utilize all the fanciest, most up-to-date, scientifically proven, number-based, training.

Lest anyone has forgotten, by the end of the movie, Rocky and Drago have both demonstrated immense skill and fought with honor, and have even earned each others' respect. Could this happen on the Paceline? Nah, Rocky is a fictional story, after all...

Hey look, I was right twice in the same thread! :eek:

[etu]

Hey Ian and Ed!
Have another conference coming up in Boston in April. If you're free, we should plan on a ride and another session.
Also thanks for turning me into a masher. Knocked off almost 2 hours from the previous year on a 200k brevet! Sure some of it was due to equipment, fitness, etc., but technique had something to do it for sure. Love the sensation of engaging the lower core and "pedaling downhill". It's not only good for climbing. It's great for the flats!

[Mzilliox]

Hey look, I was right twice in the same thread! :eek:

and still can't get no respect! with friends like these eh?

[Ti Designs]

Hey look, I was right twice in the same thread! :eek:

I would have guessed left...

[leftyfreak]

Hey Ian and Ed!
Have another conference coming up in Boston in April. If you're free, we should plan on a ride and another session.
Also thanks for turning me into a masher. Knocked off almost 2 hours from the previous year on a 200k brevet! Sure some of it was due to equipment, fitness, etc., but technique had something to do it for sure. Love the sensation of engaging the lower core and "pedaling downhill". It's not only good for climbing. It's great for the flats!

You're a glutton for punishment! Give us the dates and we'll work something out--it would be great to see you again. Ed might even introduce the "advanced" pedal stroke drills this year.

And hey, you're not a masher, you're someone who has learned how to pedal a bike. ;) Don't forget to use those quads too!

[leftyfreak]

and still can't get no respect! with friends like these eh?

Seriously. :D

[leftyfreak]

I would have guessed left...

Haven't you learned anything from this thread? You should always do the opposite of what you think...

Which reminds me of one of my favorite bumper sticker slogans: Don't believe everything you think. That seems somehow appropriate in this thread.

[72gmc]

I had a surgeon tell me we should try to hold off on knee replacement for another 20 years or so. That motivated me to spin.

[Climb01742]

Don't believe everything you think.

True dat.;)

[CDM]

You are both sad! But please look out for my upcoming deals in the classifieds!!

[bironi]

Hey Ti,
The question was a yes or no.
Yes No?
Sorry, I have tried to be polite several times over several years.

[Ti Designs]

Hey Ti,
The question was a yes or no.
Yes No?
Sorry, I have tried to be polite several times over several years.

If I had to give a simple answer, it would be yes.


That said, a simple answer to a more complex question is never a good fit. Do you run, or do you walk? You know how to do both, which method you use depends on circumstances. Everyone has a preference as to which end of the cadence spectrum they use, while they can learn how to use the other method, they still spend most of their time in what's most comfortable for them.

[CPP]

That said, a simple answer to a more complex question is never a good fit.

Can't say I agree with that.

[numbskull]

Trolling aside, the more interesting question is whether there is any sound reason (in the absence of joint pain anyways) for a recreational cyclist to try and convert from a masher to a spinner. Other things (aerobic capacity and muscle strength) being equal, does training yourself to sustain a higher cadence provide any benefit?

From what I can find, studies suggest the most energy efficient cadence is somewhere around 65/min. Higher cadences allow higher power output and faster speeds (which is critical for racing obviously) but do so at higher metabolic cost/benefit ratios. The fitter someone is the more they can afford that "wasted" energy in trade for speed.

Although professional racers maintain cadences @90-100 they are doing it in order to produce sustained power output in the 300 watt range for hours. More importantly, it takes many hours of training (+/- EPO) for them to maintain that cadence and power output (i.e., the high cadence is made possible by the aerobic capacity and muscle physiology rather than vice versa).

If you have not put in 4-6 hours a day of training does it make sense to try and pedal at the same cadence as a professional?

Any insight on this is appreciated.

[bewheels]

Trolling aside, the more interesting question is whether there is any sound reason (in the absence of joint pain anyways) for a recreational cyclist to try and convert from a masher to a spinner. Other things (aerobic capacity and muscle strength) being equal, does training yourself to sustain a higher cadence provide any benefit?

From what I can find, studies suggest the most energy efficient cadence is somewhere around 65/min. Higher cadences allow higher power output and faster speeds (which is critical for racing obviously) but do so at higher metabolic cost/benefit ratios. The fitter someone is the more they can afford that "wasted" energy in trade for speed.

Although professional racers maintain cadences @90-100 they are doing it in order to produce sustained power output in the 300 watt range for hours. More importantly, it takes many hours of training (+/- EPO) for them to maintain that cadence and power output (i.e., the high cadence is made possible by the aerobic capacity and muscle physiology rather than vice versa).

If you have not put in 4-6 hours a day of training does it make sense to try and pedal at the same cadence as a professional?

Any insight on this is appreciated.


Over the years there have been plenty of studies done. If I remember correctly there is a consistent difference between 'trained cyclist' and 'untrained cyclist'. Basically, people that ride regularly and consider themselves to be cyclist at some level, and those that don't. Untrained cyclist almost always use lower cadences.

Another ingredient is physical make-up. For me, I am on the skinny side. Not much muscle mass. I do best with cadences in the 90-100 range.

[Mark McM]

From what I can find, studies suggest the most energy efficient cadence is somewhere around 65/min. Higher cadences allow higher power output and faster speeds (which is critical for racing obviously) but do so at higher metabolic cost/benefit ratios. The fitter someone is the more they can afford that "wasted" energy in trade for speed.

Yes, several studies have found that the most energy efficient cadence is about 60 - 65 rpm. But unfortunately, this is yet another case where if you ask an irrelevant question, you end up with an irrelevant answer. Other than ultra-marathoners (who may ride continuously for several days at a stretch), absolute energy efficiency is not of importance to cyclists, because most healthy adults carry more than enough energy stores for even the longest rides.

What is far more important to cyclists are things like delaying the onset of fatigue, controlling the balance of energy utilization (fat vs. glycogen), etc. And as mentioned, some types of riding may have other criteria, such as racing, where time efficiency (distance per unit time) is far more important than energy efficiency (distance per unit energy).

So, even if a cyclist isn't racing, that doesn't mean that they should be riding at the most "energy efficient" cadence.