Looking for advice re: unresponsive framebuilder

[whatwolf]

I've held off on posting here about this for a long time now, out of respect for the builder, but I think enough time has passed without any response/action from him that this type of outreach is warranted.

Long story (not-so-short), I was fitted for a custom 650b road bike in December of 2013. I was told his wait at that time was 4-6 of months. I paid my deposit at the fitting and worked hard to gather nearly all the parts for the build as quickly as possible, as he said he would need them in order to start working.

I gave a bunch of very nice parts to him (White Industries, Paul, Berthoud, etc) in early spring 2014. He's had them ever since, and obviously giving them to him was a mistake but I had no way of knowing the process would take as long or be as frustrating as it has been.

I moved across the country in Sept 2014 and he said he'd ship the frame and parts to me in a few months, no problem.

After no evidence that my frame was actually close to completion, I asked for all my components back in March 2015. Request was denied due to his health problems.

In June I got an email asking to confirm how many bottle mounts I wanted (3) which we had gone over at least twice before then.

In September 2015 I asked for all my parts back again and this time he said he would ship them back except the fenders which he needed for fitting to the frame. I said OK.

In October I followed up, having not received a tracking number or any parts, and he said "I promise by the end of the week"

Now it's been another 4 months and he has stopped responding to my emails.

I need advice. Should I out him online? It feels wrong but I have also been jerked around for two years and would rather not have other people go through this. The ideal resolution for me at this point would be to just get all my stuff and my deposit back and chalk it up to experience. I don't expect to ever see this frame.

Thanks all. Sorry for the bummer topic.

[Dead Man]

If all that's accurate, outie quattro. That's some serious BS.

[jtakeda]

Id be hard pressed to not out him. Especially if he's going to NAHBS

[tiretrax]

Maybe the OPs frame will be a NABS display bike.

I would buy a cheap airplane ticket and visit him - unannounced, of course.

[eddief]

and you have not attempted using the phone, I'd do that first. How much deposit and what value parts do you stand to lose in a worst case scenario. I'd want to balance losing it all against trying even harder to get deposit and parts back.

After making that determination, I'd send one more email and leave one more message to tell him his reputation will be handed a blow by posting to every bike website you know about. And give him a 3 day deadline. No response. Then hand him his ass on platter and cut your losses. And don't tell us it's Paul Taylor.

[makoti]

18 months late? With your deposit AND your parts? You're a lot more calm than I would be. Sorry you're going through that. I'd likely mention his name.

[kevintice]

If the builder is going to NAHBS, I'd go visit him there! That would be interesting!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[thirdgenbird]

Just a few days ago, i was wondering what you were up to and now I'm disappointed to hear the answer.

Do you have a phone number? I would be tempted to out them at this point.

I wish there was something I could do to help.

[peanutgallery]

You're more patient than me, I would have been in stalker mode about May 2014

Couple years ago this conversation always caused quite a dust up. Glad to see you haven't been shouted down yet

I don't know what I'd do but I think that I would not want the bike at this point if any pressure was applied to the builder by outing them or threatening to

Get your parts back but the deposit is probably gone. Chaulk it up to a bummer of an experience, the builder won't be able to fool folks for long - bet you aren't the only one. The outing never goes well unfortunately, its the nuclear option

Do you have a friend that can beat on the door? Does he have a phone? Home address? You may have to be a bit more assertive

[kramnnim]

Wow, you're a very patient person. Good luck... :eek:

[rallizes]

I don't get it.

If this happened to me I would tell everyone everywhere who the builder is.

[donevwil]

Instead of considering it "outing", how about looking at it as pursuing some assistance from the Paceline community. I'm sure someone local to the builder would be willing to drop in and assess the lay of the land.

I agree what you're experiencing shouldn't happen, but what if you (we) find out what's going on with the builder before we condemn him. Maybe he's a deadbeat, maybe he's terminally ill.

[FlashUNC]

Jesus man, you're going on almost 2 years past the scheduled completion date.

Thus builder mining the ore himself to make the tubes out of? Smelting it all in the fires of Mount Doom?

I'm sorry, if I'm you I'm naming names right now.

Both builders I've used have delivered bikes almost to the day of their original estimate.

And he's got your parts to boot?

Whoever this builder is, he's been abusing your good faith in him for two years now.

Time to hit back I say.

[FlashUNC]

Instead of considering it "outing", how about looking at it as pursuing some assistance from the Paceline community. I'm sure someone local to the builder would be willing to drop in and assess the lay of the land.

I agree what you're experiencing shouldn't happen, but what if you (we) find out what's going on with the builder before we condemn him. Maybe he's a deadbeat, maybe he's terminally ill.

"Hey sorry I can't build your bike. I'm dying. Here's your parts back and good luck with another builder."

Took me 5 seconds to type that. This guy has had two years of being jerked around.

[alexstar]

Not to pile on, but I wouldn't have put up with this for this long. Definitely not acceptable behavior from a supposed professional. Sounds like once you moved, he put your bike on the back burner. Is there someone local who can intercede on your behalf? I would send him a polite but firm email, with a deadline, after which I would feel obligated to spread the word regarding his business practices. Do you know if he's going to NAHBS?

[thirdgenbird]

"Hey sorry I can't build your bike. I'm dying. Here's your parts back and good luck with another builder."

Took me 5 seconds to type that. This guy has had two years of being jerked around.

Lady

[PoppaWheelie]

Man, I feel for you. I paid fully for a frame about, oh, 10 years ago from a certain FB'r and have yet to see it. It's money gone and I'm never getting it back. Lots of effort and cajoling...nada. It really sucks.

[slidey]

As most others have mentioned, I too would out this person by now.

I'd also be very curious to know experiences of other customers that this builder has had in the period preceding your approach date, and since. Only way to do that is by getting the conversation going, and hence outing them, perhaps a year back.

[Louis]

Other than some satisfaction for the OP (and the rabble that loves a pissing contest) what does outing the builder really achieve? If it motivates him to fix everything, then I'd say by all means do it, but if it just makes things worse, then why bother?

[slidey]

Other than some satisfaction for the OP (and the rabble that loves a pissing contest) what does outing the builder really achieve? If it motivates him to fix everything, then I'd say by all means do it, but if it just makes things worse, then why bother?

Might achieve nothing for the OP, but I sure would be motivated to know others' experiences, and from there would be very eager to force the said builder's business to become more customer friendly. Public naming/shaming can work wonders in this regard.

Does the customer/builder sign on some sort of document that outlines this agreement, at all, or are these transactions all purely based out of good faith?

[thirdgenbird]

Other than some satisfaction for the OP (and the rabble that loves a pissing contest) what does outing the builder really achieve? If it motivates him to fix everything, then I'd say by all means do it, but if it just makes things worse, then why bother?

I don't think sofie will get any satisfaction out of "shaming" the builder. I'm also not sure it can get worse. At this point she is out parts and her deposit. At the very least, it's a warning to others. At most, she gets her parts/money back.

[Louis]

Instead of considering it "outing", how about looking at it as pursuing some assistance from the Paceline community. I'm sure someone local to the builder would be willing to drop in and assess the lay of the land.

I think this is a good idea for a next step. Maybe some discrete inquiries either here or ATH to check with the mods on each forum to see who they think would be a good contact with Builder X.

Re-establishing communication would be a start. If none of that works out, then more forceful methods might be the only options left.

[beeatnik]

in before the lock

aka

how many cats are currently scouring the internet looking for builders who make "precious" bikes and have had health issues in the last two years

aka

there are two sides to every story

aka

hope it all works out

[rcnute]

Out. Help framebuilder come to Jesus and achieve salvation.

Ryan

[Louis]

how many cats are currently scouring the internet looking for builders who make "precious" bikes

So now it's the victim's fault for wanting one of those bikes? Wow.

[cinema]

even if builder had a real health issue or something preventing him from responding further, outing him or her would help advise others pursuing a business relationship with builder. not getting your deposit back is standard in this situation but the parts you own and supplied should have been sent back and they weren't. absolutely unacceptable

do you know any cyclists back in your old home town who could stop by and see what's going on. ask for your parts face to face if he hasn't sold them off already. then they can send them to you in the mail

[beeatnik]

So now it's the victim's fault for wanting one of those bikes? Wow.

i meant there are some hints (maybe not so subtle or tactful) as to the cat's identity. he's had health problems and he builds niche bikas.

the op won't need to out him. a few zealous forumites may start throwing out names. and that's when things get kooky.

[Louis]

i meant there are some hints (maybe not so subtle or tactful) as to the cat's identity. he's had health problems and he builds niche bikas.

the op won't need to out him. a few zealous forumites may start throwing out names. and that's when things get kooky.

Gotcha. I thought "precious" was being used as a pejorative and read that as criticism of the OP. Sorry.

[whatwolf]

Thanks for all of the responses so far, guys.

I would get absolutely no personal satisfaction from making life more difficult for anyone, including the builder, which is why it's taken me so long to take more drastic measures, I guess.

It's reassuring to hear so many thoughts expressed that jive with (or exceed) my own frustrations. I like to keep things in writing when it comes to complicated transactions, but I will attempt to get him on the phone before taking things further. To those of you who say I'm very patient, I am, but I am also doing my best to keep everything I write about this online factual and to the point.

And, please let's not start speculating about the builder's identity, I wouldn't want anyone else's reputation to suffer.

And as far as I know he will not be at NAHBS, and neither will I.

[jwess1234]

OP--you are very restrained and kind to the builder. Hope the good karma pays off for you.

Seems overly taboo to make any negative comments about builders here. I understand some restraint, but it's excessive. Why should a builder be shielded far more than say a SRAM or ZIPP if they didn't deliver or come through on a warranty? The bikes people buy on here are expensive and buyers know what they are getting into and in turn this lets the cream of the crop builders really shine (and in turn demand higher prices etc).

[ultraman6970]

If there's paperwork signed a demand can be issued, right?

[donevwil]

"Hey sorry I can't build your bike. I'm dying. Here's your parts back and good luck with another builder."

Took me 5 seconds to type that. This guy has had two years of being jerked around.

Assuming he's the only customer, I agree with you. Two customers and that's 10 seconds and an entirely different scenario. :rolleyes:

[Louis]

Do builders put deposits in escrow?

I bet very few do, and the money's spent to either pay the rent or to fund current operations. Then, when for whatever reason the frame can't be built on schedule, there's no money left to return. The builder's too embarrassed to admit that to the customer, plus he's hoping to eventually get the frame built, so he keeps trying to stretch things out longer and longer. Eventually the builder just shuts down communications and hopes the problem goes away.

[alexstar]

Do builders put deposits in escrow?

I bet very few do, and the money's spent to either pay the rent or to fund current operations. Then, when for whatever reason the frame can't be built on schedule, there's no money left to return.

Sound business practice would be to put the deposit in escrow, but I'm afraid your scenario is probably pretty common. We've been in this scenario before with certain builders who have vanished from the stage. Exeunt, pursued by mob.

[rwsaunders]

You're dealing with theft by deception if you want to get to the root of your issue with your builder. Was there an agreement in place when you placed your deposit? A string of emails certainly helps but an agreement would be more meaningful to you moving forward. Don't throw away any receipts for your parts either.

With the builder having your parts however, I can see where you're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. It's one thing to lose a $500 deposit, but add in the value of the parts and I can see where you can easily be out another $1,000 or more.

Any chance that you might have friends in your old town that would be willing to collect your parts for you? If so, give the builder a call and let him know that a friend of yours is going to stop by and pick up your parts.

Ask about a convenient date and time and "oh by the way, could you have my refund check ready too? Better yet, here's my PayPal address so you can gift my refund today. I'm sure that you feel bad about this whole mess so let's get this behind us and move on with life. I do have to say however that you're not giving me many options and I really don't appreciate how I've been treated or understand why. What if somebody treated one of your family members this way? I think that you'd be very upset. I really don't want to have to go to the local magistrate and make this any more difficult that it needs to be, but I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to have my property returned to me as I've worked very hard to be able to pay for this bike. I know you understand that and I'm giving you the chance to do the right thing."

Best of luck to you...put your emotions to the side and be relentless as you didn't place yourself in this position, he did and he's responsible for his own actions.

[Muffin Man]

I like to keep things in writing when it comes to complicated transactions, but I will attempt to get him on the phone before taking things further.

If you want to keep records for dealing with this, you could probably record your phone call pretty easily so that you do have a record of it, and can cite it in the future.

[Bruce K]

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.

Maybe a demand letter from an attorney would get things moving if the other options people have suggested don't work.

BK

[Ray]

I'd out him immediately - I'd have done it a long time ago. It accomplishes two things. First, it MIGHT get your process moving, maybe he'd actually get to work on a frame (doubt it at this point), but at least maybe you'd get your parts back? Deposit is probably shot.

But even if you assume your parts and deposit are gone for good, think of it as a public service. How would you feel if you didn't out him and heard this same story from two or three other forumites in the coming months who started an ill-fated process with this builder because you hadn't outed him? If you can't get any results for yourself, you might be able to save other people around here from suffering through the same experience.

I wouldn't do it out of spite, but on the off-chance you'll get something back as a result and to definitely give fair warning to others here who might be thinking about using this person...

-Ray

[jpw]

is the builder still taking new orders and deposits?

that would be HIGHLY disingenuous if the OP's account of events is accurate, and little better than fraudulent trading imho.

[ldamelio]

Someone said it best above - give him or her a call to discuss - you can accomplish a lot more with the spoken word than with e-mail in this situation.

If no satisfaction then, I agree with a short deadline to name names. It's not 'outing' -that has a negative connotation on your part implying that you're exposing something private and personal to be mean-spirited. If you were having the same problem with Trek or Specialized, no one would say you were 'outing' them. It would be a community service to the members here and likely save others the same aggravation. I think framebuilders are admirable craftsmen, but there's nothing sacred about the profession that should prevent public knowledge of a bad deal. Bad doctors, clergy, etc. are and should be exposed. Nothing different here. I type all this knowing that there's two sides to every story. We are assuming the OP has held up his end as a client.

At this point, also e-mail the builder with a link to this thread.

BTW, some framebuilders that I know of escrow. Others use serial payments to cover cash flow as the project moves along. These are the ones that I and friends have dealt with.

Nice, even-tempered discussion here. Good to see.

Good luck.

[mtb_frk]

OP--you are very restrained and kind to the builder. Hope the good karma pays off for you.

Seems overly taboo to make any negative comments about builders here. I understand some restraint, but it's excessive. Why should a builder be shielded far more than say a SRAM or ZIPP if they didn't deliver or come through on a warranty? The bikes people buy on here are expensive and buyers know what they are getting into and in turn this lets the cream of the crop builders really shine (and in turn demand higher prices etc).

This.
If this was any other service you were having provided, oh like a kitchen remodel would you be so patient? I wouldn't be.

[oldpotatoe]

I've held off on posting here about this for a long time now, out of respect for the builder, but I think enough time has passed without any response/action from him that this type of outreach is warranted.

Long story (not-so-short), I was fitted for a custom 650b road bike in December of 2013. I was told his wait at that time was 4-6 of months. I paid my deposit at the fitting and worked hard to gather nearly all the parts for the build as quickly as possible, as he said he would need them in order to start working.

I gave a bunch of very nice parts to him (White Industries, Paul, Berthoud, etc) in early spring 2014. He's had them ever since, and obviously giving them to him was a mistake but I had no way of knowing the process would take as long or be as frustrating as it has been.

I moved across the country in Sept 2014 and he said he'd ship the frame and parts to me in a few months, no problem.

After no evidence that my frame was actually close to completion, I asked for all my components back in March 2015. Request was denied due to his health problems.

In June I got an email asking to confirm how many bottle mounts I wanted (3) which we had gone over at least twice before then.

In September 2015 I asked for all my parts back again and this time he said he would ship them back except the fenders which he needed for fitting to the frame. I said OK.

In October I followed up, having not received a tracking number or any parts, and he said "I promise by the end of the week"

Now it's been another 4 months and he has stopped responding to my emails.

I need advice. Should I out him online? It feels wrong but I have also been jerked around for two years and would rather not have other people go through this. The ideal resolution for me at this point would be to just get all my stuff and my deposit back and chalk it up to experience. I don't expect to ever see this frame.

Thanks all. Sorry for the bummer topic.

I'd ask for my deposit back, in full, first. If no soap, then 'social media' can be very powerful..

[soulspinner]

I'd out him immediately - I'd have done it a long time ago. It accomplishes two things. First, it MIGHT get your process moving, maybe he'd actually get to work on a frame (doubt it at this point), but at least maybe you'd get your parts back? Deposit is probably shot.

But even if you assume your parts and deposit are gone for good, think of it as a public service. How would you feel if you didn't out him and heard this same story from two or three other forumites in the coming months who started an ill-fated process with this builder because you hadn't outed him? If you can't get any results for yourself, you might be able to save other people around here from suffering through the same experience.

I wouldn't do it out of spite, but on the off-chance you'll get something back as a result and to definitely give fair warning to others here who might be thinking about using this person...

-Ray

THIS. Two Years???

[93legendti]

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.

Maybe a demand letter from an attorney would get things moving if the other options people have suggested don't work.

BK

This varies by State.

[peanutgallery]

Since this a 650 bike, I'm envisioning an instagram feed full of a bearded dude preening over cups of coffee and that sort of thing:)

When email and calls fail...
How about a post on his social media along the lines of, "glad you have the time to live such a full life, how's my stuff coming along"? My comment would be more direct, but you get the drift

[BumbleBeeDave]

OP--you are very restrained and kind to the builder. Hope the good karma pays off for you.

Seems overly taboo to make any negative comments about builders here. I understand some restraint, but it's excessive. Why should a builder be shielded far more than say a SRAM or ZIPP if they didn't deliver or come through on a warranty? The bikes people buy on here are expensive and buyers know what they are getting into and in turn this lets the cream of the crop builders really shine (and in turn demand higher prices etc).

. . . with another forum. :rolleyes: There have been some past threads here that outed builders who needed to be outed.

I'd agree with those who say try a phone call. Try one last round of contacts. Phone call. Registered, certified letter specifically asking for specific resolution and with a specific deadline for response and outlining your response if the deadline is not met, i.e., out him PLUS whatever legal avenues are available. Assemble a record of every communications you have now and be able to post it here. This gives you a reasonably reliable reply to any defenders who suddenly come out of the woodwork.

Then if he doesn't respond or meet deadline, follow through and out the scumbag.

BBD

[Peter P.]

How about send a registered letter AND call him.

With the registered letter, at least you've got proof of receipt.

Tell him if you don't hear from him AND receive compensation immediately, you go public. I'd give two weeks, tops.

Then go public.

When I read stuff like this I think, You just can't make this ····· up!

I had TWO bad experiences so I can feel your pain.

[AngryScientist]

unfortunately, this is a familiar story that we have heard too many times in the past.

i can not exactly fathom how a framebuilder would get him or herself into a situation like this. taking away all the mystique surrounding custom frames, for a practiced framebuilder, putting together a custom frame should not take all that long at all, and should not require too much in the way of capital parts. once you've got the frame building process down and are tooled up to go, it should be a matter of days that it takes to throw a frame together, minus paint. if you're past promised deadline and a customer is beating on your door, why not just man-up, nose to the grindstone and crank a frame out, it's really not that difficult?

to the OP, if i'm reading between the lines correctly, this is an east coast builder who has given you the screw job. i, personally, absolutely want to know who it is and who else is on the deadbeat effbuilder list, so i can avoid them in the future.

when you get right down to it, it's a criminal matter. a contract was entered into, whether written or verbal. the customer fulfilled their end of the contract. money changed hands. nothing in return. pretty cut and dry.

[oldpotatoe]

unfortunately, this is a familiar story that we have heard too many times in the past.

i can not exactly fathom how a framebuilder would get him or herself into a situation like this. taking away all the mystique surrounding custom frames, for a practiced framebuilder, putting together a custom frame should not take all that long at all, and should not require too much in the way of capital parts. once you've got the frame building process down and are tooled up to go, it should be a matter of days that it takes to throw a frame together, minus paint. if you're past promised deadline and a customer is beating on your door, why not just man-up, nose to the grindstone and crank a frame out, it's really not that difficult?

to the OP, if i'm reading between the lines correctly, this is an east coast builder who has given you the screw job. i, personally, absolutely want to know who it is and who else is on the deadbeat effbuilder list, so i can avoid them in the future.

when you get right down to it, it's a criminal matter. a contract was entered into, whether written or verbal. the customer fulfilled their end of the contract. money changed hands. nothing in return. pretty cut and dry.

I agree with the OP and I would ask for a full refund, then out him but 'criminal'..??

Breaking a contract is a civil case, if this were to go to court..yes? I aren't a lawyer but...

http://www.devonsomersettradingstandards.gov.uk/consumers/getting-help/the-difference-between-criminal-civil-law

[Climb01742]

Almost every professional community has some sort of industry-wide group that sets standards of behavior and work practices. Join the group, commit to the standards, gain certification and one hopes, reap the benefits of consumer confidence in those standards.

Wouldn't it benefit framebuilders if there were a consumer-focused association of builders that set standards and monitored behavior, instead of buyers being left in the lurch like this?

Don't stories like this damage, in some fashion, the community of builders? I know creating an association wouldn't be easy but might it be in the interests of the 'good guys' to band together to set standards and begin to create some distance between themselves and bad apples?

Leaving it to buyers to sort this out seems to create unproductive situations that do builders, in the collective, a disservice.

[dancinkozmo]

Almost every professional community has some sort of industry-wide group that sets standards of behavior and work practices. Join the group, commit to the standards, gain certification and one hopes, reap the benefits of consumer confidence in those standards.

Wouldn't it benefit framebuilders if there were a consumer-focused association of builders that set standards and monitored behavior, instead of buyers being left in the lurch like this?

Don't stories like this damage, in some fashion, the community of builders? I know creating an association wouldn't be easy but might it be in the interests of the 'good guys' to band together to set standards and begin to create some distance between themselves and bad apples?

Leaving it to buyers to sort this out seems to create unproductive situations that do builders, in the collective, a disservice.

i think something like this was attempted a few yrs back across the hall. when a customer had an issue with one of the 'guild members' ( super late delivery, no response to communication) they circled their wagons and blamed the victim (customer) ....it was bull.

best of luck to the OP...i hope youre able to resolve things to your satisfaction

[Climb01742]

i think something like this was attempted a few yrs back across the hall. when a customer had an issue with one of the 'guild members' ( super late delivery, no response to communication) they circled their wagons and blamed the victim (customer) ....it was bull.

True. The goal would need to be helping consumers/buyers. Perhaps that's the stumbling block. Not all builders feel the same responsibility to buyers. Which hurts the builders who do.

[Birddog]

i think something like this was attempted a few yrs back across the hall. when a customer had an issue with one of the 'guild members' ( super late delivery, no response to communication) they circled their wagons and blamed the victim (customer) ....it was bull.

best of luck to the OP...i hope youre able to resolve things to your satisfaction

I remember that. I lost all respect for them as a whole and rarely visit that site as a result.

[malcolm]

I read most of the thread and like others agree you have been beyond patient.

I would contact him in writing return receipt and lay out what I wanted including my parts and my deposit.

I would also state his/her name here on this public forum.
I understand health problems and as a business owner myself I'm loathe to disparage someones business and means of making a living, but when you hang out a shingle it comes with responsibility and one of those is communication and doing what you say or if you get into a bind making it right for someone that trusted you with their hard earned money.

I think you owe it to this forum and to the honest reputable builders that participate here.
It's not on you to make allowances for any of his problems. It's not your fault you paid your money and expected a product and didn't get it. It's up to him his business or his family to make it right.
Sorry if this is harsh but it's crazy how we protect these builders like they are somehow better than other businesses when they don't remotely live up to their responsibility.

We have many fine upstanding honest builders and it puts them and their industry in a bad light.

[saab2000]

i think something like this was attempted a few yrs back across the hall. when a customer had an issue with one of the 'guild members' ( super late delivery, no response to communication) they circled their wagons and blamed the victim (customer) ....it was bull.

best of luck to the OP...i hope youre able to resolve things to your satisfaction

Yeah, the whole 'blame the customer' thing bugs me to no end. And yes, it's real.

There's simply no excuse for missing deadlines and not communicating about it.

[yngpunk]

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.
BK

I think this varies state by state. I believe in some states, only one party consent is required.

[MattTuck]

Ok, a few things.

First, I'm very sorry to hear about your travails. When it comes to cycling, there is something very special about being able to order a custom frame, meant to fit your needs and hit all your desires. When that experience is marred by an unprofessional builder, it leaves you feeling empty and angry. That is a really unfortunate place to find yourself on what should be a fun and exciting journey.

As others have said, a phone call is definitely in order.

Also, I'd back off the 'publicly out' him angle, and focus more on a little sleuthing. Try contacting people in his circle (did he train with another builder?), other local builders, etc. Reach out to them and mention that you haven't been able to get in touch, and if they have heard from the builder or know what's going on.

If the sleuthing angle doesn't work, then going public with a plea for help does make sense. Unfortunately, we're sort of beyond the 'red line' when a forum request would be purely curative. So if you go that route, it will almost definitely affect people's perceptions of the builder. This is ok, he deserves it, and this is how a free market should work.

If you do go the route of digging in your heels, as others have said, certified letter, letter from lawyer. Focus on getting your stuff back first, and then the deposit. At this point, would you even want the frame?

[SlackMan]

Whatwolf, I'm really sorry to hear of your troubles, and wish you the best of luck in sorting it out for a refund and parts return or receiving your frame.

It won't do any good now, but in case you try again in the future, I would ask the builder about an I.C.E. plan, which I discussed in the link below:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129753

[AngryScientist]

I agree with the OP and I would ask for a full refund, then out him but 'criminal'..??

Breaking a contract is a civil case, if this were to go to court..yes? I aren't a lawyer but...

http://www.devonsomersettradingstandards.gov.uk/consumers/getting-help/the-difference-between-criminal-civil-law

good point. agreed.

[DreaminJohn]

What's the ultimate goal of outing the builder (which may not align with your ultimate goal of a refund/parts return or a new bike)?

If the builder is indeed still taking deposits then I think you can contribute to the cycling community as a whole by warning folks off who could possibly experience the pain you currently feel. Out the guy.

I think outing the builder to facilitate matters in your case would be unwise. As others have stated, there are more productive routes you can take. Outing is the nuclear option in this scenario.

ATMO, of course.

Good luck and I hope you get satisfaction soon.

[makoti]

in before the lock
aka

there are two sides to every story

Two years? Multiple promises unkept? In possession of money AND parts? The other side is going to have to be pretty damn good. And health issues don't cut it. A few months, maybe. But at some point the person should have told her "I can't do this".

[bumknees]

If you out the builder to facilitate matters, you're bound to hear the tinkling sound of flux trapped in the tubes when the frame eventually arrives

[William]

I love bikes and the craftsmanship that goes into building them. That said, I've never understood why there seems to be a taboo about publicly commenting on bad service from frame builders. With just about any other product out there the consumer will almost always give reviews or comments on purchased products and business services....good and bad.

In order for a business to regulate themselves, they have to be responsive to the voice of the consumer. If there is no "voice" to be wary of, the good eggs will be good, and the bad eggs will continue to rip people off and/or give subpar service.

If you are as far beyond the due date as you indicate, and have tried to communicate numerous times, it sounds like you have done your due diligence. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't out them, but it does sound like you've exhausted the regular avenues of communication. Imo, at this point I see no reason to hold back, but that is your prerogative.

Best of luck in resolving this.


William

[Blown Reek]

Just blast him on the internet. If what you say is true, then it'll be his just desserts for two years of getting kicked around.

Not specifically directed at the OP:

Now why someone would let themselves get taken advantage of a frame builder is beyond me- after all, they work for you. Just because they can join tubes doesn't warrant the cult-like following that (some) frame builders have. The whole "rock star" fanboy mentality that some people have towards (some) framebuilders is their demise. Sure it's the framebuilder's fault for not following through, but if you wait two years (!), you have to bore some of the responsibility. But if you're the sucker who is going to enter a year(s)-long queue to experience the abstract idea of what makes a certain framebuilder's product better than anything else out there... well, that's your prerogative.

But then again, if you're the kind of buyer than incessantly contacts a framebuilder to discuss the most meaningless of minutiae (which people seem to do- toe overlap, 1/4 of a degree difference in head angles, 68 vs 70 drop, etc.), you're to blame, too. If you know what you want, let it be known. If you don't, then let them do their job. Oh, and if you spent more time obsessing over paint than the rest of the build, then you get what you deserve. It's a bike, not a means to mend any past regrets or complete your life in any way.

Know what you want when you order then sit back and patiently wait.

[rallizes]

Two years? Multiple promises unkept? In possession of money AND parts? The other side is going to have to be pretty damn good. And health issues don't cut it. A few months, maybe. But at some point the person should have told her "I can't do this".

Builder appears healthy on FB.

Sorry OP. No one deserves this BS.

[J. Anquetil]

I believe in the principle of reciprocity. Not only do I believe you ought to make public, very public his name, I believe you ought to report him to the police. So typical of these scam artists to be so nice and complacent before getting the dough and turning 180° once they have it on their side. The business is all too full of bull···· artists.

[54ny77]

These kinds of threads are why I enjoy buying off-the-shelf (relatively speaking) bikes/frames or used frames from forum members, and custom only from long-established builders who don't live from deposit-to-deposit. I have friends who've had a laundry list of issues just like you've described, from builders like Spooky, Ira Ryan, and Goodrich, more specifically.

Sorry to hear of the dilemma, OP.

[livingminimal]

Just because they can join tubes doesn't warrant the cult-like following that (some) frame builders have. The whole "rock star" fanboy mentality that some people have towards (some) framebuilders is their demise.


Could not agree more. Dealing with it personally with a frame and builder. it sucks. not what I thought I was buying into.

also, to me, it isn't "outing" per se as much as it warning several thousand others (Paceliners) that regularly buy custom frames (like myself) over this potential transaction..

we have a transaction feedback forum, we have a place to show beautiful custom bikes and discuss the process...

Similarly there should be a place for things like this.

[Rusty Luggs]

I think the builder has already behaved in a manner sufficient to deserve "outing".

If it were me, I would only wait to out him if I thought it might impede getting a satisfactory resolution. If I was concerned about that, I would wait until I exhausted all my other avenues of resolution.

I would not use the threat of outing him as one of the ways to try to extract my money and components back. I would just do it after either exhausting all my means of resolving the issue or after I got my money and parts back. Really deserves to have people warned off him regardless of how it resolves. IMHO.

[AngryScientist]

interestingly, many of these "rockstar" framebuilders rely very heavily on social media to prop up their business, and aside from the fanboy reputation they enjoy, they have little else to establish themselves other than an instagram and flicker feed. obviously they stand to lose the little ground they have by negative social media attention.

[peanutgallery]

Op should start here as a next step

I would comment on each and every post until I got a response

Builder appears healthy on FB.

Sorry OP. No one deserves this BS.

[unterhausen]

I'm pretty sure I can count the number of full-time builders on my toes and fingers. The ones that do pretty well seem to deliver on time, barring delays at paint. Other than Curtlo, that is. The thing I hate about these threads is that people read them and decide to go buy a Trek. I used to think that it is really bad to out someone that is struggling because it would ruin their business. But it might be doing them a favor. They can get back to riding more and quit ruining the reps of other struggling framebuilders.

[velomonkey]

Why is it that factually reporting that frame builder has missed their self-imposed deadline by 2 years, kept your deposit, been lacking in communication and has poor business acumen is somehow "outing" but anyone talking about delivery of their build and the ride quality is a "report."

Both are records of the experience we as customers had with the builders. The internet is a great resource for this and one where it can help a potential client identify a good businesses and, conversely, save a potential client from giving their hard earned money to a bad business.

It's not like paceline banns the builder from telling their side.

I agree when you make bad laundry public it's best to give the benefit of the doubt. A phone call is not a panacea for this, the builder is way, way, way over the line of any generally acceptable form of customer service.

Disclose who it is so others, maybe others with deposits, can get a handle on their build rather than waiting two years.

[LJohnny]

As many have said already, this is a very long time to be waiting for a product. I think that if the business in questions seems to be active on social media and customers are putting their cash in the line for his products, then it will be quite useful for you to post your experience on his social media outlet.
You mentioned that you have tried to reach out to him recently w/o getting a return phone call, thus I think trying to reach out via other methods is not only fair, but mandatory at point. This will serve to alert others to your predicament and therefore a warning, and more relevant to you, I am sure you will hear back. From what I have seen here and elsewhere, after social media is involved in a case like this, the business comes out quickly to try to "fix" the situation.

[AngryScientist]

Why is it that factually reporting that frame builder has missed their self-imposed deadline by 2 years, kept your deposit, been lacking in communication and has poor business acumen is somehow "outing" but anyone talking about delivery of their build and the ride quality is a "report."

Both are records of the experience we as customers had with the builders. The internet is a great resource for this and one where it can help a potential client identify a good businesses and, conversely, save a potential client from giving their hard earned money to a bad business.

It's not like paceline banns the builder from telling their side.



well stated. agree.

[unterhausen]

Op should start here as a next step

I would comment on each and every post until I got a response

it's possible he posts on the closed framebuilders list. I just posted a link to this thread there asking whoever it is to explain themselves. More I think about it, the more pissed I am. There have been some big flameouts over the years, only one of the builders involved seems to have made a comeback. I understand that people have serious problems that preclude making customers happy, but taking deposits and not delivering is like a ponzi scheme

[oldguy00]

Why would you bother creating this thread if you aren't going to name him? Help protect others from getting ripped off as well.

[FlashUNC]

Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

You've been more than patient with the builder (who has your deposit and parts).

[Climb01742]

The thing I hate about these threads is that people read them and decide to go buy a Trek. I used to think that it is really bad to out someone that is struggling because it would ruin their business. But it might be doing them a favor. They can get back to riding more and quit ruining the reps of other struggling framebuilders.

If builders won't police themselves with some sort of industry association, isn't it left, unfortunately, to buyers to police the situation? Which leads to a far from perfect or ideal situation.

In my industry, advertising, we have the 4A's, the American Association of Advertising Agencies that sets industry guidelines for behavior and business practices. Real industries police themselves.

My guess is, a number of proven, successful, truly stand-up builders would be inclined to try to form an association to set standards but probably avoid doing so because of the crap they'd take from a segment of the industry who view builders as somehow sacred. Sadly, it probably wouldn't be worth the aggro for stand-up builders. Which leaves us with an imperfect policing 'system'.

[54ny77]

that's because it is a ponzi scheme for some of them, living deposit to deposit, not a pot to piss in. like not having enough money to pay the painter for a frame that's already been built & paid for.

a good analogy is paying a contractor the full cost of a renovation before it's completed. note: bad idea.

this kind of thing sullies the industry for legit folks who've made their living/career in this little sliver of bike land.

it's possible he posts on the closed framebuilders list. I just posted a link to this thread there asking whoever it is to explain themselves. More I think about it, the more pissed I am. There have been some big flameouts over the years, only one of the builders involved seems to have made a comeback. I understand that people have serious problems that preclude making customers happy, but taking deposits and not delivering is like a ponzi scheme

[druptight]

that's because it is a ponzi scheme for some of them, living deposit to deposit, not a pot to piss in. like not having enough money to pay the painter for a frame that's already been built & paid for.

a good analogy is paying a contractor the full cost of a renovation before it's completed. note: bad idea.

this kind of thing sullies the industry for legit folks who've made their living/career in this little sliver of bike land.

It's hard for us to imagine how one gets into that hole, but I think it comes from the fact that a lot of effbuilders didn't do their homework on running a business first. I don't care how much of a wizard you are with a torch and file, if you aren't good with budgeting your time and money, and putting as much time into the "business" side of the business as the labor side, then you're setting yourself up to fail!

None of this, of course, excuses the builder in a scenario like this.

[MattTuck]

this kind of thing sullies the industry for legit folks who've made their living/career in this little sliver of bike land.

It comes back to the old adage about trust. I don't think this sullies the people who have put in the time and have built their reputation one happy customer at a time. A customer always has choices, and there are builders with solid reputations at every price point.

[David Kirk]

As I'm sure you know all too well an attempt was made a number of years ago to form such a group and while it started off well, and with the best of intentions, once it got rolling it became a real mess.

Most of the builders involved wanted to be part of a healthy and growing group that would act as a info center to builders and to aide customers when things come off the rails. I say "most" of the builders....not all. It turned out that one, and maybe a few of his supporters, wanted the group to exist for purely selfish reasons as a way to say that the members were the big dogs and anyone who wasn't a member wasn't worth considering and they resisted all efforts to grow the group. To the small core of us that started the group this was maddening and one of the most frustrating things I've ever dealt with. In the end the infighting made the group completely ineffective and sucked much of the life out of the idea and even though there are some members, like myself, that would like to see something move forward even now the energy for it is sadly limited.

In the end I think it boils down to the fact that there are at least a few different motivations for builders out there.......some want to make happy customers and have that pave the way toward making a living doing what they love to do......and some treat framebuilding as a conduit to some level of celebrity and are more focused on image than putting good bikes under happy customers. This is a large divide that our small group of original members never anticipated even existing and weren't prepared to deal with when it became obvious.

I wish a group existed. It would be a benefit for all reputable builders and would help get rid off, or convert, the very few bad apples. I'm open to it and I know others are and I hope that in the future something can be done to overcome the internal resistance to having an effective group.

I have personally reached out to the person that started this thread and offered my help. I don't know how effective I can be but it's a sincere offer. It's not supposed to work like this.

dave



If builders won't police themselves with some sort of industry association, isn't it left, unfortunately, to buyers to police the situation? Which leads to a far from perfect or ideal situation.

In my industry, advertising, we have the 4A's, the American Association of Advertising Agencies that sets industry guidelines for behavior and business practices. Real industries police themselves.

My guess is, a number of proven, successful, truly stand-up builders would be inclined to try to form an association to set standards but probably avoid doing so because of the crap they'd take from a segment of the industry who view builders as somehow sacred. Sadly, it probably wouldn't be worth the aggro for stand-up builders. Which leaves us with an imperfect policing 'system'.

[Mzilliox]

As I'm sure you know all too well an attempt was made a number of years ago to form such a group and while it started off well, and with the best of intentions, once it got rolling it became a real mess.

Most of the builders involved wanted to be part of a healthy and growing group that would act as a info center to builders and to aide customers when things come off the rails. I say "most" of the builders....not all. It turned out that one, and maybe a few of his supporters, wanted the group to exist for purely selfish reasons as a way to say that the members were the big dogs and anyone who wasn't a member wasn't worth considering and they resisted all efforts to grow the group. To the small core of us that started the group this was maddening and one of the most frustrating things I've ever dealt with. In the end the infighting made the group completely ineffective and sucked much of the life out of the idea and even though there are some members, like myself, that would like to see something move forward even now the energy for it is sadly limited.

In the end I think it boils down to the fact that there are at least a few different motivations for builders out there.......some want to make happy customers and have that pave the way toward making a living doing what they love to do......and some treat framebuilding as a conduit to some level of celebrity and are more focused on image than putting good bikes under happy customers. This is a large divide that our small group of original members never anticipated even existing and weren't prepared to deal with when it became obvious.

I wish a group existed. It would be a benefit for all reputable builders and would help get rid off, or convert, the very few bad apples. I'm open to it and I know others are and I hope that in the future something can be done to overcome the internal resistance to having an effective group.

I have personally reached out to the person that started this thread and offered my help. I don't know how effective I can be but it's a sincere offer. It's not supposed to work like this.

dave

One of the good guys! nice of you to offer your assistance!

Whatawolf, I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. Like you, I try in life to give people second and third chances and the benefit of doubt, but sometimes that leads to escalated issues like this. Its not fair at all, and I hope you get a happy resolution.

As someone who is actively shopping for a frame builder or 2 for the next couple rides, I really think it would eventually help to put a name out there. It doesn't have to be now or in this thread, but at some point or via PM i guess.

Happy Wednesday, lets get over this hump

[William]

As I'm sure you know all too well an attempt was made a number of years ago to form such a group and while it started off well, and with the best of intentions, once it got rolling it became a real mess.

Most of the builders involved wanted to be part of a healthy and growing group that would act as a info center to builders and to aide customers when things come off the rails. I say "most" of the builders....not all. It turned out that one, and maybe a few of his supporters, wanted the group to exist for purely selfish reasons as a way to say that the members were the big dogs and anyone who wasn't a member wasn't worth considering and they resisted all efforts to grow the group. To the small core of us that started the group this was maddening and one of the most frustrating things I've ever dealt with. In the end the infighting made the group completely ineffective and sucked much of the life out of the idea and even though there are some members, like myself, that would like to see something move forward even now the energy for it is sadly limited.

In the end I think it boils down to the fact that there are at least a few different motivations for builders out there.......some want to make happy customers and have that pave the way toward making a living doing what they love to do......and some treat framebuilding as a conduit to some level of celebrity and are more focused on image than putting good bikes under happy customers. This is a large divide that our small group of original members never anticipated even existing and weren't prepared to deal with when it became obvious.

I wish a group existed. It would be a benefit for all reputable builders and would help get rid off, or convert, the very few bad apples. I'm open to it and I know others are and I hope that in the future something can be done to overcome the internal resistance to having an effective group.

I have personally reached out to the person that started this thread and offered my help. I don't know how effective I can be but it's a sincere offer. It's not supposed to work like this.

dave


Thank you for sharing Dave. I remember this, and I heard a lot of the back channel chatter from a few on the inside which backs up your comments. I would love to see an effective, non biased group form such an organization, but it seems that egos sometimes have a way of turning things on their heads when it comes to groups of people.

Even if such a group existed for the good of the business, I still think the consumer has to have a voice as well. Checks and balances as it were.







William

[Kirk Pacenti]

I would like to know who the framebuilder is. Having recently being bilked for nearly $4,900.00, I can't help but wonder if it's the same person.

I've done all I can short of legal action to recoup my funds, but said builder only offers excuses. If the matter isn't resolved in the next few months, you can all be sure that the Paceline Forum and every other social media outlet I know of will be made aware of who this person is.

Good luck, OP. Do us all a favor and out the guy.

Best regards,
KP

[R3awak3n]

I agree with everyone. You seem like a nice person, don't want to cause any trouble but one thing is waiting for 1 years, now 2 years and that person is straight up lying to you (won't send your parts back).

It seems like you have tried everything, not sure if all this is through email or not but I would absolutely call that person and call a lot till I get my money back and my parts.


The outing is not pretty but it might get you your money back, above all it will prevent people from going through the same awful experience as you.

[djg21]

I agree with the OP and I would ask for a full refund, then out him but 'criminal'..??

Breaking a contract is a civil case, if this were to go to court..yes? I aren't a lawyer but...

http://www.devonsomersettradingstandards.gov.uk/consumers/getting-help/the-difference-between-criminal-civil-law

It's unlikely that it would be any kind of crime. There's nothing to suggest that the builder intended to defraud the OP when he took the deposit and agreed to build the bike. On the other hand, it is a breach of contract. But given the relatively small cost of a bike frame, the cost of obtaining legal recourse probably would be prohibitive unless the OP can get into small claims (depending on jurisdictional limitations and the builder's contacts with her jurisdiction).

The reality is that a lot of small businesses use deposits on sales as float. It may be bad business, but it happens.

I wouldn't bother with registered mail. It won't hurt, but it isn't really necessary. I'd send a letter by First-Class Mail, and send a PDF copy via e-mail (or a fax) with receipt and read notifications enabled. I'd demand a full refund within ten business days given the builder's failure to deliver a frame within the time agreed upon. There really is no need to make an express threat because it is implicit. If the OP doesn't get a response within ten days, she should post the name to social media, including to the forum across the hall.

[joosttx]

I had a bad experience with a frame builder. Delays upon delays requesting more money after request more money... etc, etc... So I decided to only use the highly reputable builders in the future or go through a bike shop.

[velomonkey]

The world is lucky to have Dave Kirk and Paceline benefits from his participation. Class act all the way, Dave.

And yea, doesn't matter if you are a wiz with the torch and can use the best instagram filters and can taste the saffron in arabic coffee beans - if you can't master the most basic of business finance and customer service then you're a hack and your product comes with a risk.

[bigflax925]

The world is lucky to have Dave Kirk and Paceline benefits from his participation. Class act all the way, Dave.

And yea, doesn't matter if you are a wiz with the torch and can use the best instagram filters and can taste the saffron in arabic coffee beans - if you can't master the most basic of business finance and customer service then you're a hack and your product comes with a risk.

^^ This.

And one of the main reasons if I ever get to have a custom, it'll be Dave Kirk behind the torch.

[tele]

I went through the custom process with someone who was newish but local. He had some communication and delay issues. I got what I needed and was happy but I know others who were not so lucky. I emailed and called to get what I needed. Eventually this builder got called out here and across the hall and is no longer in the industry.

My .02c: badger the hell out of the person on the phone, email and nowadays social media but after 2 years, call them out and let others help in anyway they can.

[ergott]

As I'm sure you know all too well an attempt was made a number of years ago to form such a group and while it started off well, and with the best of intentions, once it got rolling it became a real mess.

Most of the builders involved wanted to be part of a healthy and growing group that would act as a info center to builders and to aide customers when things come off the rails. I say "most" of the builders....not all. It turned out that one, and maybe a few of his supporters, wanted the group to exist for purely selfish reasons as a way to say that the members were the big dogs and anyone who wasn't a member wasn't worth considering and they resisted all efforts to grow the group. To the small core of us that started the group this was maddening and one of the most frustrating things I've ever dealt with. In the end the infighting made the group completely ineffective and sucked much of the life out of the idea and even though there are some members, like myself, that would like to see something move forward even now the energy for it is sadly limited.

In the end I think it boils down to the fact that there are at least a few different motivations for builders out there.......some want to make happy customers and have that pave the way toward making a living doing what they love to do......and some treat framebuilding as a conduit to some level of celebrity and are more focused on image than putting good bikes under happy customers. This is a large divide that our small group of original members never anticipated even existing and weren't prepared to deal with when it became obvious.

I wish a group existed. It would be a benefit for all reputable builders and would help get rid off, or convert, the very few bad apples. I'm open to it and I know others are and I hope that in the future something can be done to overcome the internal resistance to having an effective group.

I have personally reached out to the person that started this thread and offered my help. I don't know how effective I can be but it's a sincere offer. It's not supposed to work like this.

dave


I think your place in the industry is established and respected enough to warrant leading the charge anew should you desire. Any of the other "big wigs" that didn't agree could be left behind. You have the experience in both bigger operations (Serotta) and flying solo long enough to demonstrate that you know what you are doing with the torch and with all the other operations.

[livingminimal]

It's unlikely that it would be any kind of crime. There's nothing to suggest that the builder intended to defraud the OP when he took the deposit and agreed to build the bike. On the other hand, it is a breach of contract. But given the relatively small cost of a bike frame, the cost of obtaining legal recourse probably would be prohibitive unless the OP can get into small claims (depending on jurisdictional limitations and the builder's contacts with her jurisdiction).

The reality is that a lot of small businesses use deposits on sales as float. It may be bad business, but it happens.

I wouldn't bother with registered mail. It won't hurt, but it isn't really necessary. I'd send a letter by First-Class Mail, and send a PDF copy via e-mail (or a fax) with receipt and read notifications enabled. I'd demand a full refund within ten business days given the builder's failure to deliver a frame within the time agreed upon. There really is no need to make an express threat because it is implicit. If the OP doesn't get a response within ten days, she should post the name to social media, including to the forum across the hall.

Not to mention, the statute of limitations on oral contracts (and written) in most states is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4 years. Will be hard to do anything at all once that's expired.

[livingminimal]

The world is lucky to have Dave Kirk and Paceline benefits from his participation. Class act all the way, Dave.

And yea, doesn't matter if you are a wiz with the torch and can use the best instagram filters and can taste the saffron in arabic coffee beans - if you can't master the most basic of business finance and customer service then you're a hack and your product comes with a risk.


Man. Agree so much. So so much.

also: this is making me want to order a David Kirk.

[93legendti]

Not to mention, the statute of limitations on oral contracts (and written) in most states is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4 years. Will be hard to do anything at all once that's expired.

6 yrs in Michigan

Fraud, not to mention conversion of parts, are both viable claims.

[SpeedyChix]

Years ago early in the start of 29 mtbs I ordered a custom from a very new builder. Didn't learn my lesson after that long ordeal and ordered a CX frame. Essentially paid for that one twice to finally get it. Building it up discovered it wasn't straight. Crickets from the builder (who I later learned also took another shop/builder for a "ride"). Found someone local who got the alignment close. Never again.

I've since stuck with established builders who have a long track record and no major snafus on record. Things can still get delayed or details missed along the way but one is more assured of ending up with a rideable frame.

Bummed to read about another long saga with no resolution after two years! It's not right and wouldn't be tolerated in other industries. Pursue your deposit and parts via all possible channels. Anyone local to the area who can assist? Send certified letter outlining history and required resolution/penalty for failure, phone call, pressure placed on them by other reputable builders. Hope this one resolves favorably for you.

If this builder is still taking deposits, acting as a frame builder they need to be identified to the cycling community at large to put an end to the scam this "builder" has going.

[unterhausen]

also: this is making me want to order a David Kirk.in my first post, where I said that these stories make people want to buy a Trek, I originally said it makes people want to buy a Kirk. But I didn't because it isn't really fair to Dave to drag him into it. But it's a problem for lesser-known builders that people flame out and make customers want to play it safe.

I put my framebuilding business on the back burner because I saw what the business entailed, and because I saw that anyone with an iPhone can take pictures of a crappy brazing job, post them online and people think they are a framebuilder. Some of them finally put out good frames. It's a hard business even without a batch of flakes making people doubt all newbies.

[josephr]

It's a hard business even without a batch of flakes making people doubt all newbies.

Who's that guy that was part of Breadwinner bikes? I think he was a dude that got a good reputation for building nice frames, things went to pot so he joined BreadWinner, got an article in Bicycling magazine and everything. Maybe teaming up was pretty smart for him. Just cause you can build a good frame doesn't mean you can run a business -- there's only so much one man can do. That's why guys like Kirk, Ellis, others get solid reputations is they don't just take everyone's order without giving them a realistic turnaround time. 2 years is nuts to wait for a bike.

[kevinvc]

in my first post, where I said that these stories make people want to buy a Trek, I originally said it makes people want to buy a Kirk. But I didn't because it isn't really fair to Dave to drag him into it. But it's a problem for lesser-known builders that people flame out and make customers want to play it safe.

I put my framebuilding business on the back burner because I saw what the business entailed, and because I saw that anyone with an iPhone can take pictures of a crappy brazing job, post them online and people think they are a framebuilder. Some of them finally put out good frames. It's a hard business even without a batch of flakes making people doubt all newbies.

That's a really good point. I'm not in a position to be buying a custom frame, but I like to daydream about how I'd do it if I had the money. Portland has a ton of frame builders and many of them have done some really nice work. I like the idea of supporting a local business and the convenience of having them so close by. But I'd be hard pressed to take a chance on someone with a minimal track record.

I'm not going to call out anyone by name, but there is a local guy who had a great reputation for his work quality but started to fall way behind on orders. He started another frame building company and initially got some good press for their work. Then the stories started coming out that folks who had been waiting for years were getting bypassed for new orders at the new company. Then he started falling behind on orders for the newer company as well. His work is fantastic and the bikes I've seen are beauties, but he doesn't seem to know how to run a business (although he is good at marketing himself), has demonstrated poor communication skills, and, to put it politely, has been misleading in many of his interactions.

In the end, there are a couple of locals I would consider, but they are folks who are well established and have a rock solid reputation.

[merlinmurph]

I would like to know who the framebuilder is. Having recently being bilked for nearly $4,900.00, I can't help but wonder if it's the same person.

Gulp. Almost 5 grand.
I'm wondering myself.....

[livingminimal]

6 yrs in Michigan

Fraud, not to mention conversion of parts, are both viable claims.


Oh it's definitely a viable claim. It's a matter of whether or not the SOL is good in his state. If so, he should pursue it soon.

[MattTuck]

I should start a parody of radavist called recidivist, where I take pictures of non-existent bike frames that were never delivered.

Would actually be funny to create a brand called Reformation Cycles, and invite all these guys to build under that brand, but someone else handles the finances/customer relationships.

[slidey]

Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.

It depends on the state you are in. If the state you reside in has a "one-party consent" requirement, then you can record the conversation without intimating the other person. Eg: NY. This however is illegal in CA.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/state-law-recording

[slidey]

Would actually be funny to create a brand called Reformation Cycles, and invite all these guys to build under that brand, but someone else handles the finances/customer relationships.

Just call them 'ReCycle'

[livingminimal]

I should start a parody of radavist called recidivist, where I take pictures of non-existent bike frames that were never delivered.

Would actually be funny to create a brand called Reformation Cycles, and invite all these guys to build under that brand, but someone else handles the finances/customer relationships.

Is it that frequent of an issue?

Stunned to see Mr. Pacenti of all people was ripped off for 5K...that's unbelievable...

[rugbysecondrow]

This topic has been taboo in the past. I created a Feedback Thread back in 2010 in an effort to provide a resource for those looking to make a decision regarding builders. It was shouted down and closed. For better or worse, this is a different place now. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

Anyway, I have been through a process similar, but not as protracted. It was not expecting the process to be as emotionally draining as it was. Buying a custom frame turned from a daydream to a reality, to a nightmare. The deception, lies, excuses...they just get old.

I provided a report/review of my experience with the builder (Paul Taylor) in an effort to inform others what to expect if they do business with this person. . I sent him what I wrote. You would not believe the number of people who PM'd me with similar issues, afraid to come forward. Many feared retribution. Many thanked me for helping them avoid him. Many said they had issues with the same builder and apologized for not speaking up sooner.

With money, dreams and effort on the line, I think it is better to honestly critique the company and the person, and allow the customer to make an informed decision. I would rather the good builders get the contracts rather than the bad, so you are actually helping more than one party by coming forward.

With all that said, it is your decision. Cheers

[AngryScientist]

Many feared retribution.

meaning what exactly?

[BobbyJones]

I can't even understand what the questions are about. I'm looking at it simply as:

1) Your deposit got stolen

2) So did your parts.

Not counting what I'm reading as an "amicable" delay, you've been ripped off for almost a year. It's one thing if you're a que sera sera kind of person and want to write it off, but you obviously feel ripped off- because you have been.

Contrary to OP's thoughts and our legal system's technicalities, its criminal. Do something about it and stop feeling like a victim. If you don't want to go through the hassle, at least speak up so the builder doesn't have the opportunity to do the same to others.

Good Luck.

[Ken Robb]

I had similar situations with 3 builders. Eventually I got my $$ back in each case. One time it was just a matter of asking for it when the frame was 1.5 years late and still not built. The other two times were more trouble and pretty much cured me of "needing" another custom frame.

I would order from Kirk, Hampsten, Strong, Dave Wages, Waterford, MOOTS and other well-known good guys whose names escape me at the moment. One of my biggest problems was with a builder I thought I knew but he got way off-track with business and personal problems. I put quite a few miles on a borrowed R. Sachs bike that I loved riding and looking at but I'm way too old to live long enough to get a new one built for me. :D

[Cat3roadracer]

She did say that the new frame would be shipped across the country to her new residence in Southern CA. That excludes Mid West, West Coast frame builders.

[fuzzalow]

Eventually this builder got called out here and across the hall and is no longer in the industry.

Really? ATH? In my estimation, an unlikely occurrence. That goes against the grain of anything I have ever read with respect to that forum's editorial bent. There is no greater pro-industry/builder editorial bias there than anywhere else I am aware of on the web. Never put ATH in the same breath as Paceline when referring to honesty and fair-handedness in discussions of cyclists and the bike industry in its various guises.

To the OP: It s highly regrettable what you have found yourself mired in. I am afraid that for the most part your options are few and the amount of redress you might receive is small, if any. Sorry for the harsh reality but it is what it is and the scumbag builders out there know this. As petty comfort, this bike biz is very small scale stuff; there were hundreds of fly-by-night housing contractors that disappeared during the post-Lehman aftermath with very little consequence. So although there might be legal recourse, going after a penniless schmuck/schmuckette custom bike builder is a low probability positive outcome. Sorry.

I have always sought to be sensible about the experience in dealing with a custom builder. I have written about it at length here in this forum. I think some of the more senior and experienced members of this forum should do their part in helping other Paceliners navigate what can be a minefield in the custom builder game. Do not get D-K'd (Dunning-Kruger'ed) by people that know not of what they speak.

In that sense, threads like this one are invaluable.

Rockstar builders are largely a creation of web-based personas that all had a purpose and an agenda. Don't get suckered by this kind of tomfoolery.

[krhea]

This topic has been taboo in the past. I created a Feedback Thread back in 2010 in an effort to provide a resource for those looking to make a decision regarding builders. It was shouted down and closed. For better or worse, this is a different place now. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

Anyway, I have been through a process similar, but not as protracted. It was not expecting the process to be as emotionally draining as it was. Buying a custom frame turned from a daydream to a reality, to a nightmare. The deception, lies, excuses...they just get old.

I provided a report/review of my experience with the builder (Paul Taylor) in an effort to inform others what to expect if they do business with this person. . I sent him what I wrote. You would not believe the number of people who PM'd me with similar issues, afraid to come forward. Many feared retribution. Many thanked me for helping them avoid him. Many said they had issues with the same builder and apologized for not speaking up sooner.

With money, dreams and effort on the line, I think it is better to honestly critique the company and the person, and allow the customer to make an informed decision. I would rather the good builders get the contracts rather than the bad, so you are actually helping more than one party by coming forward.

With all that said, it is your decision. Cheers

Rudy, you da man. I was about to write something very similar to what you wrote. Thanks.
"
"Velomonkey", your comments were spot on in this thread as well.

Mr Kirk, you're an asset to your craft and a Paceline "All-Star" for the manner in which you handle your business and allow us to have a peek into your mind at times. Offering the OP your assistance is another example of going way above and beyond what is expected of you. Thanks

To the OP, I've been where you are, it ain't fun. As Spike Lee once so famously said..."Do The Right Thing" and shed some light on who this builder is so another honest hard working person who may finally be fulfilling their dream of a custom frame can avoid dealing with unethical builders who turn the experience from a dream into a nightmare in short order.

[rugbysecondrow]

meaning what exactly?

That by airing the issue, the builder would delay even longer. Some even had outright threats of lawsuit from the builder if anything was said. By keeping their mouth shut, and towing the line, they MIGHT still get their bike.

Retribution from the Paceline (serotta forum) peers who would slam them down, even the Mods who were less forgiving. People like feeling like they are at the "cool table" and for some folks, the builders helped create that environment. It wasn't my bag, but many folks liked it.

The forum was a "Bro Joint" that courted and coddled builders. Any talk was shouted down by folks here.

This thread is an indication that the forum has changed some, although I haven't paid attention as I am out of the custom frame market now.

[54ny77]

certainly not litigation, but rather, the online wrath (oh no, not that!) of bike dorks who fancy themselves less dork. this, while being online, talking about bikes, photographing bikes, yadda yadda. and spending afternoons wearing lycra and shaving their legs while not. sure, that makes sense. :rolleyes: :p

meaning what exactly?

p.s. ruby, the absurdity of that situation you mentioned (re: threats of lawsuit) is beyond words! i'd love to know who threatened a slapp action for badmouthing a frame build. most f-builders who screw with customers literally don't have a pot to piss in, let alone be in a capacity to litigate a matter. the situation is akin to someone going online and writing a bad review of restaurant or car buying experience. the internet is replete with examples like that, ad nauseum. freedom of speech and all that.

[MacMan]

When I went custom I too was lured by the mystique of some of the small folks with splashy instagram accounts. In the end, the trust was not there so I ended up with a Seven that was delivered on time with no shenanigans. As much as I love it, I would have gone another way if the trust was there. I guess I am proof that this type of chain without identifying the low life harms the business of the honest little guys, which is too bad.

Realize this build was probably not focused on the latest and greatest, but sheesh - I wouldn't even want two year old parts on the frame at this point!

Good luck to OP.

[Hilltopperny]

I believe in accountability. If the builder didn't follow through and has since been ignoring the op then they should be "outed" as it is well deserved. I would lose my mind if I shelled out the kind of bucks to buy a custom frame and was given years of excuses. I would be even more livid if I sent parts for the build and lost them as well. There is simply no excuse at this point and if it were me I would cut my losses and tell everybody I knew about the poor business dealings and overall distrust towards said builder. Thankfully there are many reputable builders on this forum and plenty of folks who are willing to share their experiences with said builders and forum members in the comments section of the classifieds. Good luck and please let the rest of us know who the builder is so we can avoid such a horrible situation...

[rugbysecondrow]

certainly not litigation, but rather, the online wrath (oh no, not that!) of bike dorks who fancy themselves less dork. this, while being online, talking about bikes, photographing bikes, yadda yadda. and spending afternoons wearing lycra and shaving their legs while not. sure, that makes sense. :rolleyes: :p



p.s. ruby, the absurdity of that situation you mentioned (re: threats of lawsuit) is beyond words! i'd love to know who threatened a slapp action for badmouthing a frame build. most f-builders who screw with customers literally don't have a pot to piss in, let alone be in a capacity to litigate a matter. the situation is akin to someone going online and writing a bad review of restaurant or car buying experience. the internet is replete with examples like that, ad nauseum. freedom of speech and all that.

Here is a similar post. I deleted the PM i received (it was 5 years ago), but I got one similar. Don't remember if it was from this person or not. This tone was similar to what I received in PM though. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=927947&postcount=69

[livingminimal]

I would order from Kirk, Hampsten, Strong, Dave Wages, Waterford, MOOTS and other well-known good guys whose names escape me at the moment. One of my biggest problems was with a builder I thought I knew but he got way off-track with business and personal problems. I put quite a few miles on a borrowed R. Sachs bike that I loved riding and looking at but I'm way too old to live long enough to get a new one built for me. :D

Soulcraft, Caletti, Pegoretti, 44, Firefly, IndyFab, Geekhouse, Vanilla/SV, DeSlavo....

I mean, the list of REPUTABLE and TRANSPARENT builders is a strong one. Even if their waits are long and sometimes delayed, the reputation most of these folks have is that their communication is dialed in, at the very least. You're going to get a bike.


I talk to Megan from Moth Attack every couple of days and we aren't even looking at delivery for my new bike until pre-August 1st.

[timto]

Here is a similar post. I deleted the PM i received (it was 5 years ago), but I got one similar. Don't remember if it was from this person or not. This tone was similar to what I received in PM though. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=927947&postcount=69

That is insane. So sickening to read that happened

[54ny77]

What?????

Fbuilder threatening to put a buyer in the "crowbar hotel" if they posted something bad online?

That's a law enforcement call right there. I'd make that fbuilders life commercially and legally miserable if they did something like that to me.

Here is a similar post. I deleted the PM i received (it was 5 years ago), but I got one similar. Don't remember if it was from this person or not. This tone was similar to what I received in PM though. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=927947&postcount=69

[chiasticon]

It's a hard business even without a batch of flakes making people doubt all newbies.yeah that's the bitch of it. they're not just hurting their business, they're hurting small framebuilders all around.

my advice to the OP is to be sure you've exhausted every option with the builder. call them, write them more, send a registered letter, have a lawyer contact them, etc. when possible, get everything in writing (hopefully you have up to this point) as that's invaluable should you ever need to take them to court. if they still don't respond after all that, that's exactly what I'd suggest doing. at that point, the burden of proof is on you and the more you have in writing of what you provided, what they agreed to provide and what was not provided, the more likely you are to win.

as far as blasting them online, that's less important to me than getting your situation fixed first. after you're sure that the guy won't turn around and counter-sue for defamation (not saying he'd win, just saying...) or at the very lest tell you to eff-off over everything because of what you've done, etc. after all that's cleared up, THEN please tell us who it is so you can save someone else this mess and hopefully get this clown out of the business.

[JAGI410]

Sad to hear of this stuff! I agree with "outing", although I hate the term. If/when there's a problem with an online vendor everyone is quick to name names in the interest of warning others. If this builder is still actively taking deposits, then a warning is certainly warranted.

[jmeloy]

Now have been around the block and back on custom builds. Two frustrating experiences, one of which I was lucky to get my $$ back on. The rest have been very positive, with a new bike from Dave Kirk at the top of my experience list.

The lesson I've learned has been stated above.... deal with those that have a proven track record. The following have been outstanding to work with:

Kirk
Vanilla/Speedvagen
Spectrum
Hampsten
Strong

[whatwolf]

as far as blasting them online, that's less important to me than getting your situation fixed first. after you're sure that the guy won't turn around and counter-sue for defamation (not saying he'd win, just saying...) or at the very lest tell you to eff-off over everything because of what you've done, etc. after all that's cleared up, THEN please tell us who it is so you can save someone else this mess and hopefully get this clown out of the business.

This is what I'm leaning towards. I just had a very rushed (on his end) conversation with him in which he was apologetic and provided the typical vague excuses one would expect, and he said he'd mail my parts out by the end of the week. Granted, he said that back in October too. I sent a follow up email with a list of the parts I need back, my address, and a deadline of next Wednesday for me to receive a tracking number before enlisting help.

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

[FlashUNC]

This is what I'm leaning towards. I just had a very rushed (on his end) conversation with him in which he was apologetic and provided the typical vague excuses one would expect, and he said he'd mail my parts out by the end of the week. Granted, he said that back in October too. I sent a follow up email with a list of the parts I need back, my address, and a deadline of next Wednesday for me to receive a tracking number before enlisting help.

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

I'll publicly offer to supply torches and pitchforks if it comes to it.

[djg21]

This is what I'm leaning towards. I just had a very rushed (on his end) conversation with him in which he was apologetic and provided the typical vague excuses one would expect, and he said he'd mail my parts out by the end of the week. Granted, he said that back in October too. I sent a follow up email with a list of the parts I need back, my address, and a deadline of next Wednesday for me to receive a tracking number before enlisting help.

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

Did you ask for your deposit back too?

[whatwolf]

Did you ask for your deposit back too?

Yes.

[trentschler]

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

But now nine pages of traffic - which you started - asking if you should "out" a business with which you had a bad experience. This makes it seem like more than it is. What, is the framebuilder gay? Transgender? Folks post bad experiences with FedEx, USPS, UPS, etc., all the time. Sounds like the framebuilder is a flake, and, in my opinion, you should have just said that at the beginning, "I went to buy a frame from Joe/Josephine Blow two years ago and I still haven't gotten it." So, caveat emptor.

One other thing - there's nothing magic about a custom bike frame. Some builders offer a high level of craftsmanship and may have the experience to get it to fit (or not), but you yourself could learn to build a decent, long-lasting frame in a semester of a high school shop class. Especially now with the "Mentor" section on Velocipede, you might think you need the equivalent of a medical degree to build a bike frame. You don't.

I think you would be well served just to look for a "classic and vintage" steel bike, Cannondale or Klein - same exact thing. And often better finished, too.

[velomonkey]

I think you would be well served just to look for a "classic and vintage" steel bike, Cannondale or Klein - same exact thing. And often better finished, too.

The frame in question is a 650b road bike - page 1, post 1.

Though I gotta say: the gay transgender frame builder thing sounds AWESOME and, I like the name, Josephine Blow. Those frames would indeed be magic.

[ThasFACE]

Had a similar experience with a wheelbuilder some time back. Then had another problem with a frameset. I ultimately got both after looooong waits.

Neither situation kept me from doing the riding that I wanted to do, and in that sense neither was a huge problem, but the lack of communication and complete disrespect for my time was a bummer. I now have no plans to ever work with someone who is not one of the rock-solid operations that we all know well (Spectrum, DK, IF, etc etc).

It's a shame that stuff like this happens, since I like the idea of supporting lesser-known builders. The risk of all that agida, though...

[54ny77]

Start an off Broadway play, Kinky Bikes.

The frame in question is a 650b road bike - page 1, post 1.

Though I gotta say: the gay transgender frame builder thing sounds AWESOME and, I like the name, Josephine Blow. Those frames would indeed be magic.

[notsew]

That is insane. So sickening to read that happened

Yeah, that's nutty. I'd be calling the cops at that point.

This whole little sub-sub-culture of smalltime custom builders seems to operate in a different economy than the rest of the world. The notion that anyone thinks these people shouldn't be "outed" from the highest hilltop is nuts.

These builder thefts come out on here every six months or so, its always the same, "should I out them?" Of course you should out them. ···· them. If specialized made you pay and then never gave you a bike would you out them???

I respect builders, but they are craftsmen, not gods. If they can't run a business, then they shouldn't be in business. And everyone should know it. By not outing them, we create information asymmetry and allow them to steal from someone else.

Bah!

[Waldo]

Snip: Except that I believe recording phone calls as a private citizen is illegal unless you have the consent of all parties.


1. This varies from state to state
2. Tell that to Stephanie McIlvain

[druptight]

I respect builders, but they are craftsmen, not gods. If they can't run a business, then they shouldn't be in business. And everyone should know it. By not outing them, we create information asymmetry and allow them to steal from someone else.

Bah!

:hello:

[alembical]

Unfortunately I think you have to out them. Sucks you are in that position, but I don't think you have another good choice. If you don't out them and someone else sends in their deposit tomorrow, you have just screwed them by not letting them be aware of what is going on. Part of a community is protecting others within the community. Sounds like you have been more than fair to the builder, but don't let it come at the expense of other consumers.

That said. Definitely your call to make. I am not buying a custom bike soon, so it does not affect me.

[Northmeadow]

If you used a credit card for the deposit you might be able to get your money back from them. I too was scammed out of half the price of a frame by a now non existent builder, who refused to refund my deposit. Luckily I checked with the credit company and they made good on it.

[R3awak3n]

I think its smart to hold on the outing and try to get your money back. At the it sucks for the people that are about to put a deposit down with that builder than in 2 years will be here complaining about the same thing.


Also what is his excuse? He is sick?

[zennmotion]

But now nine pages of traffic - which you started - asking if you should "out" a business with which you had a bad experience. This makes it seem like more than it is. What, is the framebuilder gay? Transgender? Folks post bad experiences with FedEx, USPS, UPS, etc., all the time. Sounds like the framebuilder is a flake, and, in my opinion, you should have just said that at the beginning, "I went to buy a frame from Joe/Josephine Blow two years ago and I still haven't gotten it." So, caveat emptor.

One other thing - there's nothing magic about a custom bike frame. Some builders offer a high level of craftsmanship and may have the experience to get it to fit (or not), but you yourself could learn to build a decent, long-lasting frame in a semester of a high school shop class. Especially now with the "Mentor" section on Velocipede, you might think you need the equivalent of a medical degree to build a bike frame. You don't.

I think you would be well served just to look for a "classic and vintage" steel bike, Cannondale or Klein - same exact thing. And often better finished, too.

Wow! All kinds of knowledge and good advice here. Everyone gets to have an opinion...

[alexstar]

This is what I'm leaning towards. I just had a very rushed (on his end) conversation with him in which he was apologetic and provided the typical vague excuses one would expect, and he said he'd mail my parts out by the end of the week. Granted, he said that back in October too. I sent a follow up email with a list of the parts I need back, my address, and a deadline of next Wednesday for me to receive a tracking number before enlisting help.

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

Did he say if he was still going to build your frame? (I assume he hasn't)

[Waldo]

I think its smart to hold on the outing and try to get your money back. At the it sucks for the people that are about to put a deposit down with that builder than in 2 years will be here complaining about the same thing.


Also what is his excuse? He is sick?

Get the money and the parts back, then out...

[adrien]

I've been through custom builds twice. Once was with someone this forum has bashed for poor business practices, and one was with a team universally praised for great business practices.

They were different experiences, but ultimately, I have two bikes I love, made by folks who knew what they were doing and got me what I wanted. Some people -- especially in niche industries -- don't have the same wiring when it comes to engagement that we who can afford such things tend to expect (probably because of our own careers). Such is the way of things.

My bigger worry here is there is a point where the experience can go badly enough that the bike is no longer a positive thing -- either for the builder making it (I do NOT want someone mad at me when welding my frame) or for the rider riding it (I think the frame is nice but this builder didn't treat me right). There is a big emotional investment in commissioning a bike. If the emotion goes bad, move on. Life's too short to ride a bike with bad karma.

My 3 cents. Kitting up.

[makoti]

My bigger worry here is there is a point where the experience can go badly enough that the bike is no longer a positive thing -- either for the builder making it (I do NOT want someone mad at me when welding my frame) or for the rider riding it (I think the frame is nice but this builder didn't treat me right). There is a big emotional investment in commissioning a bike. If the emotion goes bad, move on. Life's too short to ride a bike with bad karma.

My 3 cents. Kitting up.

I agree with this so much. At some point, just get your money back (if you can) and go. If it went that badly, you will never love the bike like you hoped. It will always be "Nice bike, but man, what an ordeal". I know, because I had one of those. And it wasn't even custom. It was a Colnago. New, from a store. Just buy it, right? No, didn't work that way. It was a great bike, but it always carried the stigma of the purchase ordeal with it. Cut & run, you'll be happier.

[Mr. Squirrel]

one must always point out the bad nuts, save your brethren from the unfortunate stomach upheaval that a bad nut would surely cause.

mr. squirrel

[-dustin]

subscribe

[sandyrs]

I've been lucky enough to have all of my four (wow, I can't believe I've had four custom bikes made) custom experiences go well, but I can understand the desire not to 'out' the builder considering that at least at one point in the process, you were really excited about this bike, exchanged enthusiastic communication with the builder, daydreamed about what you would do with the bike, etc. It's a really emotional connection and one that has made it had for me to sell one of my customs, much less bad mouth the person who made it possible.

That said, I fall on the side that says it's a public service for you to let us know who the builder is given the extreme extent of your particular case. I can understand not wanting to come off as a whiner, but four times the quoted lead time and refusing to send you your own parts is inexcusable. The analogy to other industries or bigger brands is apt- if this were a refrigerator or a grill or something, would you hesitate to tell people about the terrible experience?

[raygunner]

I really feel for the OP, being in a very similar situation w/ a builder that was discussed in length on this forum.

I hope everything works out in the end and you're made whole. Though I guess that won't really happen since you've expelled time & frustration dealing with the builder that you'll never get back.

In regards to my previous experience I still find it amusing the posts which were directed to shame me for "outing" the builder in question. These custom framebuilders should not be held to the level of troubled/challenged artists but businessmen (& women) first & foremost.

I will never forget all the PM's from forum members who had experienced similar situation with my builder (and others). Thanks for that support!

Sadly, there are many folks in this industry who are certainly great at cultivating a clever cycling related image/persona via Instagram (& via "The Radavist") but fail to deliver a hard product.

I'm still a supporter of custom builders and love my bikes! Despite this, I'm still befuddled by my experiences as I had a frame built by another Portland builder who said it'd take 6-8 weeks and took 1.5 years to build. Nice guy but it wasn't worth it in the end!

[Red Tornado]

Yeah, that's nutty. I'd be calling the cops at that point.

This whole little sub-sub-culture of smalltime custom builders seems to operate in a different economy than the rest of the world. The notion that anyone thinks these people shouldn't be "outed" from the highest hilltop is nuts.

These builder thefts come out on here every six months or so, its always the same, "should I out them?" Of course you should out them. ï½·ï½·ï½·ï½· them. If specialized made you pay and then never gave you a bike would you out them???

I respect builders, but they are craftsmen, not gods. If they can't run a business, then they shouldn't be in business. And everyone should know it. By not outing them, we create information asymmetry and allow them to steal from someone else.

Bah!

Well said sir.
Seen a lot of these types of threads, and for those builders that fall into this unscrupulous category, the above statements more than apply.

[purpurite]

Like any buyer/seller feedback made public (forum classifieds, eBay, etc.), it's done to support or dissuade someone else in making a decision to deal with a seller in the future.

The WORST outcome of this situation, that hasn't already happened, is that someone else gets elbow-deep into a similar deal for a new frame, and has the same or worse experience with this builder.

I think it's in the best interest of the community to know all of the details of this ordeal, so that we are able to make the most informed decisions in the future. There are probably at least a few people here regularly that are currently contemplating buying from this builder. Knowing the full story could potentially help those people from making the same mistake (or at least going into it with full insight).



doug

[nicrump]

True story, I once got "outed" on a forum for taking a deposit and "telling the guy to eff off".

It was on a forum I didn't frequent often and was lucky that a guy local to me saw it and brought it to my attention. It was a pretty bad pile on by the time I got there. I could not for the life of me figure out who this guy was. Then I realize he is telling a second hand story. After some time figured out who the customer was who I had refunded a deposit to and it took a slight act of congress to get him to tell the truth which was essentially--> I was asked to build something I was not comfortable with and I kindly refunded the deposit in its entirety and very promptly.

The upshot to the builders and customers is, this and other forums have far FAR more positive stories about their experiences with small shop customs than the negative stories. You don't have to toss the whole niche out for a few bad apples.

[2LeftCleats]

Sounds like we need an 'Angie's List' for customs.

[OtayBW]

.......You don't have to toss the whole niche out for a few bad apples.I certainly didn't read most of the sentiment here that way. It's clear there are PLENTY of well-respected craftspersons, business people, and honest folks in the framebuilding business. You certainly are among them from everything I see. But I think there is a sense of outrage here, and sometimes you need to chuck that bad apple out of the bin to make things right and before it affects the others....:beer:

[rccardr]

Two items, 'cuz there's already been a lot said here:

1) You've been more than patient, and a whole bunch classy.

2) Personally, I would refuse to be held hostage here by the thought that by naming the builder he/she would either further drag their feet or do a poor job on your project. If they do, you have rights and capabilities to counteract that kind of behavior.

F'em. Nothing you could/would do at this point will/would change the builder. The only way to deal with a bully is to refuse to be bullied, and that's what's really happening here.

He has your lunch money. Don't let him bring you down or take the lunch money of others.

[eBAUMANN]

wow, just seeing this.

there really should be a feedback thread for builders if sh*t like this is happening, its totally unacceptable and inexcusable.

he's brought whatever comes upon himself here, not that i will be ordering a custom frame from anyone anytime soon, but for the benefit of everyone else here and any future customers of his, id really love to see this person called out.

just my 2c.

sorry youve had to deal with this and i hope it all works out, if even 2 years later...

[livingminimal]

I think it's interesting that multiple people have mentioned the radavist as being somewhat culpable in propagating amateur hour frame builders or highlighting style over substance.

I will say I didn't choose a particular frame builder once partially BECAUSE of some ···· I saw on there and the mutual ego stroking therein.

I can't stand the site personally, I ····ing roll my eyes at the whole "check your negativity at the door bro" attitude. Sorry, reality has some cynicism built into it.

I'm not sure if the site should be a barometer not to choose a builder, though I am guilty of exactly that. It should definitely not be a reason TO choose a builder.

[eddief]

seems like a good builder should somehow take advantage of this bummer vibe. Oh, I forgot, good frame builders just build good frames and have no need to take advantage.

[beeatnik]

I once hired a plumber at Home Depot. Homeboy had the nicest looking card of all the curbside laborers (tru story). Well, he didn't do the best job and blew off the 2nd day of work. If I were a member of an HVAC/Plumbing Forum, I'd probably out the cat and tell everyone to avoid Pierre over at the Fig St Home Depot. However, I wouldn't report Pierre to the Plumbers' Union or begin to make generalizations about "bad" plumbers.

[kevinvc]

This is what I'm leaning towards. I just had a very rushed (on his end) conversation with him in which he was apologetic and provided the typical vague excuses one would expect, and he said he'd mail my parts out by the end of the week. Granted, he said that back in October too. I sent a follow up email with a list of the parts I need back, my address, and a deadline of next Wednesday for me to receive a tracking number before enlisting help.

A lot of you have PMed me with offers of help - thank you! And some of you have PMed me with guesses as to who it is - not going to reply for now to any of them.

Did you ask for a refund as well or are you still hoping that they will finish the build? If the latter, I can totally understand giving them one last chance before pushing the launch button since I would never be able to fully trust a frame built by an already proven irresponsible person in such a highly confrontational environment.

I echo others in that I hope you provide a name once the situation is fully resolved. In fact, it would be ideal if the builder was given a link to this thread and afforded an opportunity to respond. I am not doubting your story at all but, as with the Curtlo example given earlier, there can be multiple sides to every story. It would give the builder a chance to explain their perspective and potentially mitigate some of the ill will they have absorbed.

[Frankwurst]

seems like a good builder should somehow take advantage of this bummer vibe. Oh, I forgot, good frame builders just build good frames and have no need to take advantage.

No. Good frame builders act like Dave Kirk. Voice their opinion, offer suggestions and above all their help. Class Act. :beer:

[idrinkwater]

Just sayin'. The radavist's last few bikes were a motobecane, a rivendell, and I think a firefly.

[54ny77]

If you paid Pierre upfront and he never showed up other than day 1, and you only realized on day 2 that he not only stole your kids' ipad but drank all the good beer from the garage fridge, meanwhile having a web page touting how great he is and welcomes new business, would you still feel the same? :bike:

I once hired a plumber at Home Depot. He didn't do the best job and blew off the 2nd day of work. If I were a member of a HVAC/Plumbing Forum, I'd probably out the cat and tell everyone to avoid Pierre over at the Fig St Home Depot. However, I wouldn't report Pierre to the Plumbers' Union or begin to make generalizations about "bad" plumbers.

[firerescuefin]

This sucks for the OP, and I hope she is made completely whole.

But something about the posts that are "asking for advice" but are clearly a message to the builder to "get this ���� right before I drop your name into the thread" seems disingenuous to me. I don't think you're looking for advice, and that those that are offering it are wasting their breath IMO.

Some semblance of this thread occurs 1-3 times a year on this forum, and the usual handwringing occurs. I hope the leverage play works and I hope that if the story is as you tell it (and I believe it probably is) that the builder in question is revealed.

[eBAUMANN]

I think it's interesting that multiple people have mentioned the radavist as being somewhat culpable in propagating amateur hour frame builders or highlighting style over substance.

I will say I didn't choose a particular frame builder once partially BECAUSE of some ���� I saw on there and the mutual ego stroking therein.

I can't stand the site personally, I ����ing roll my eyes at the whole "check your negativity at the door bro" attitude. Sorry, reality has some cynicism built into it.

I'm not sure if the site should be a barometer not to choose a builder, though I am guilty of exactly that. It should definitely not be a reason TO choose a builder.

the radavist is entertainment. eye candy.
he reviews, opinions.
he bromotion...exactly that.

pick a builder because they speak to YOU, because YOU like their work, you like them as a person, and you want to support what they are doing. not cause some blogger posted a pretty picture.

honestly, i cant really imagine buying a frame from a builder I didn't personally know. it adds so much to the experience/satisfaction of owning a custom bike IMO.

[Peter P.]

I went through the custom process with someone who was newish but local. He had some communication and delay issues. I got what I needed and was happy but I know others who were not so lucky. I emailed and called to get what I needed. Eventually this builder got called out here and across the hall and is no longer in the industry.

My .02c: badger the hell out of the person on the phone, email and nowadays social media but after 2 years, call them out and let others help in anyway they can.

Boy; do I remember that-because I was part of that fiasco as well! I was lucky enough to have escaped with a full refund of my $1300 after much badgering. Little did I know, many of the 10 or 11 people in the queue never saw a dime.

[Peter P.]

I should start a parody of radavist called recidivist, where I take pictures of non-existent bike frames that were never delivered.

Would actually be funny to create a brand called Reformation Cycles, and invite all these guys to build under that brand, but someone else handles the finances/customer relationships.

THAT'S funny!

[Tony]

Back from a long mtb ride and still the drum roll? Op if it's as you say than this builder is dirty, dude needs to be outed.

[Peter P.]

Really? ATH? In my estimation, an unlikely occurrence. That goes against the grain of anything I have ever read with respect to that forum's editorial bent. There is no greater pro-industry/builder editorial bias there than anywhere else I am aware of on the web. Never put ATH in the same breath as Paceline when referring to honesty and fair-handedness in discussions of cyclists and the bike industry in its various guises.

I have to agree with you. I was involved in the Maietta disaster and the moderators of the Velocipede Salon definitely were biased in their treatment of those trying to seek some sort of resolution/get some answers. But since it's a privately owned forum, they can do whatever they want.

[Joachim]

I have to agree with you. I was involved in the Maietta disaster and the moderators of the Velocipede Salon definitely were biased in their treatment of those trying to seek some sort of resolution/get some answers. But since it's a privately owned forum, they can do whatever they want.

Yes I remember that.... Ugh.

[Peter P.]

Soulcraft, Caletti, Pegoretti, 44, Firefly, IndyFab, Geekhouse, Vanilla/SV, DeSlavo....

I mean, the list of REPUTABLE and TRANSPARENT builders is a strong one. Even if their waits are long and sometimes delayed, the reputation most of these folks have is that their communication is dialed in, at the very least. You're going to get a bike.


Very true.

When I ordered my Soulcraft, the lead time was listed on Sean's website as 6 months. After he missed that deadline and the months began to accrue, I began to wonder...but there was some sense of reassurance because his social media page would show SOME activity although it wasn't all framebuilding related.

The frame was delivered in 10 months and when I asked what happened, he said one of his machines broke down which delayed production. I don't doubt that because one photo on his social media page showed 10 sets of tubes, fittings, and blueprints ready to be assembled. I was prepared to wait a full year before I spoke up.

The point is, there ARE framebuilders out there, Sean Walling/Soulcraft included, who may have a hiccup in production but can still be trusted to deliver.

[Tony T]

Was it his email machine that broke down causing a lack of updating you about the 4 month delay? ;)

[tigoat]

It is common not to deliver a project on time in this frame building industry, you ought to know that. People would wait 7 years for a project to come to life so 2 years of waiting is really nothing. If that is what you want then you will have to wait it out.

It is surprising to see so many support here to bash the builder, as it used to be that if you bad mouth a builder then you will be crucified. For this reason, it would be difficult to find a negative review on anything, as most reports are from happy customers.

[Peter P.]

Was it his email machine that broke down causing a lack of updating you about the 4 month delay? ;)

ANOTHER funny one!

At least Sean has a disclaimer on his website warning you about is e-mail habits!

Although I think I get what you're saying-he could have at least sent off an e-mail to those on his waitlist advising them of the delay. I agree. But many people aren't as good at customer service or business as they are at building frames. Some are just the opposite.

[Tony T]

Yeah, that was my point. You didn't seem to mind the additional wait, and neither would I, however it's very easy to send the client an email update (even a form email) — It's not like its 1980 where he would have to write a letter or make a phone call.

[adrien]

It is common not to deliver a project on time in this frame building industry, you ought to know that. People would wait 7 years for a project to come to life so 2 years of waiting is really nothing. If that is what you want then you will have to wait it out.

It is surprising to see so many support here to bash the builder, as it used to be that if you bad mouth a builder then you will be crucified. For this reason, it would be difficult to find a negative review on anything, as most reports are from happy customers.

I was surprised by this when I started coming here more often. Some builders have been vilified here based on 1-2 bad experiences. I recall another thread elsewhere where a customer really was upset with a bad build and called it out, and the thread ended up being completely removed.

Caveat emptor and all that. But also -- people don't always get along. Doesn't mean a full crucifixion based on half the story is always appropriate.

[yngpunk]

Was it his email machine that broke down causing a lack of updating you about the 4 month delay? ;)

More like what was he doing while the machine was broken? Should have left him time to communicate...

[JAGI410]

I have a wild guess on who it is. 650B specialist from the PNW that seemed to have disappeared shortly after interbike last year?

[BumbleBeeDave]

I have a wild guess on who it is. 650B specialist from the PNW that seemed to have disappeared shortly after interbike last year?

I also feel the builder needs to be outed, but there's no need to begin speculating and possibly damage the reputation of someone who may have no connection to this.

BBD (wearing my mod hat)

[FlashUNC]

Reward the builders who do it right, and speak up about those who don't. It ain't rocket science.

[e-RICHIE]

I have to agree with you. I was involved in the Maietta disaster and the moderators of the Velocipede Salon definitely were biased in their treatment of those trying to seek some sort of resolution/get some answers. But since it's a privately owned forum, they can do whatever they want.

Peter I remember that and still feel bad for all involved. When I made a suggestion to you about recourse, your reply to me was:

"Richard is right; this "has nothing to do with framebuilding, framebuilders, the niche, or the profession". And thanks to him for suggesting alternatives such as contacting Tony through his Facebook page."

My point in replying here, to you or anyone interested, is that the transaction Peter cites was an eBay one, not a Maietta website one, or even anything related to any forum.

To the original poster - I'm saddened to read about your bad experience. I hope it gets reconciled and all involved leave fulfilled. My opinion when I read threads "like these" is that a conversation takes two parties. I've run my business as an email-centric one, and my terms of business (always in plain view for clients and anyone to read) include that all missives, questions, edits, and related have to come via email. It's the only way I can manage all the expectations of those waiting. It creates a paper trail that phone calls can't. No PMs through forums. No engaging with clients through social media. Just email. And I save every single one. That way, God forbid there's an issue or misunderstanding, I can read the entire history with a click. Yes, I've had to do this too. What I've found is that not everyone saves theirs. Or has email forwarded when they switch jobs. Or leave Yahoo and start a Google Mail account. I hope the builder in question and the OP saved everything, and can use it as a leaping off point to resolve this. If not, it may continue ad infinitum as a he said, she said story.

As far as the trade goes, I wish the barrier of entry was higher - or deeper as the case may be. I've railed for a long time against folks hanging out a shingle too soon, or after their 8th frame, or after taking a class, or having followers on their blog, or going to NAHBS and winning an award. According to my opinion there's way too much precious and far too little training. And my version of training and what folks in the Y2K era have in mind are polar opposites. People want that fast track to personal adoration. I get it. It's the 21st century. Folks don't want to commit to training the way it once was done. So I accept that the ship's sailed. As as result, threads like these also remind me that we get the niche we enable. An the internet enables a lot of mediocrity.

Also, it continually pains me to read the contempt folks have for VelocipedeSalon as if it's the work of the devil himself. PS I don't own it or any part of it. The place has existed since 2005 and people started finding the board several years later when voices from this place, when it was under Ben's banner, were no longer posting. Some quit posting out of respect for Ben because others, reading that is, thought it was a conflict of interest. And then there was the short period when this forum (then) wanted to charge folks in the industry for being here. Others can speak for themselves. I've been "here" since 2001 give or take a month and have rolled with the changes. I don't post much in either place anymore, feeling that most of it (from my vantage point) has become repetitive. There's a lot of wisdom as well as a lot of noise in both rooms. So maybe, once and for all, some of you can lose this Us Versus Them mentality that surfaces every so often.

[elliott]

/thread

[makoti]

I also feel the builder needs to be outed, but there's no need to begin speculating and possibly damage the reputation of someone who may have no connection to this.

BBD (wearing my mod hat)

Really agree with this. There are some really good ones (I was fortunate twice with the guys I dealt with. Both very responsive.) but there will be a few who maybe should let others handle the people end of things. Everybody isn't good at everything.
Let's wait and let the OP tell us who she had trouble with, instead of tossing around guesses. I have no idea of who it is, but I can bet on who it isn't.

[earlfoss]

Just say who the gawddamm builder is and get it over with. Time and time again these "builder done me wrong but I'm not saying who" posts go on forever and the OP comes across as pathetic, good builders get named for their greatness, and speculation runs rampant. Feel free to add more on to that list of cliche similar thread responses. Ya think 13 pages is enough? Let's get to 25 or 40 before dropping the name.

[rustychisel]

Just say who the gawddamm builder is and get it over with. Time and time again these "builder done me wrong but I'm not saying who" posts go on forever and the OP comes across as pathetic, .....

Agree with first position, not the second. I see nothing pathetic in calling for help.

Posting in the first place seems to cry out for some recognition of plight and assistance, but really, it's giving the tree a good shake. Now cut to the chase, OP, coz if you read in 6 months time from someone who was treated as you were you will have been part of the problem in not speaking out.

[Burnette]

To the OP, I hope you get your parts and money back and thank you for sharing. Reality checks can be good occurrences. They get your head out of clouds and back into the details of a thing.

The four builders that I really like have many years of experience and are prolific in their work (I can see their continuous output on Builder Spotlights here and on Friday Night Lights at Velocipede Salon). One builder I follow even recovered quickly from a fire at his shop. He got it repaired and continued and on with his work.

And although things could go wrong with any of them, their track record shows a pattern of completed sales and resolutions to issues. I once PM’ed a customer of one builder about an issue with a fork and the customer reported that it was taken care of in a timely manner.

I thought about this the other day. Choosing a builder is much like cutting wood. Measure twice, cut once. For me, there are three measures, quality and business longevity and viability.

As far as the outing thing goes, I think the frame building niche is mature enough that it doesn’t need overzealous censoring of bad experiences. I also feel that anyone reading these type threads should have the wherewithal to discern the difference between one bad experience with one builder and what the reputations are for other builders that have nothing to do with this situation.

If the name of the OP’s builder comes out, great. If not, I feel secure in the fact that it defiantly isn’t anyone that I follow. But I do see it as a service to other customers to give a name. It would at least give potential customers the opportunity to investigate the issue for themselves. After reading reports here and talking to the builder in question directly, let then the customer make the call whether or not they wish to put money down.

In fact, I think it much better to have a name than to have speculation against an innocent builder.

[whatwolf]

To those of you that are telling me I might make things worse for other people by not naming this builder (yet) -- as far as I know (and according to what several people have told me) he is not taking on new clients and hasn't done so in a long time.

And for what it's worth, I have several friends that got bikes from this builder in the year I placed my order, and all had normal happy experiences and received their bikes in a timely manner, and are currently riding the crap out of them.

So, hold your horses, as it were. I want to see if I can get all my stuff and money back beforehand. I personally won't be gaining anything by naming him and I don't think anyone is losing anything by me delaying doing so. Except those of you who are impatient and are getting worked up.

And FFS, please don't "guess wildly" and spark speculation, this isn't a riddle. I was just trying to get some feedback from people who have dealt with this type of problem, and I'd like to thank all of you who have been generous with your time and knowledge.

[denapista]

So you're to believe that someone who has openly taken your parts and never given you your promised frame, isn't taking orders from anyone else? Really?

I think it would do the cycling community a favor and out him, so no one else contacts this builder for future services, or at least until he can explain his side of the story. If you believe shady people stop doing shady things, then you're naive to ways of shady people. I'm pretty sure you aren't the only person who has a checkered story from this individual.....

At this point, you're allowing a wolf to sit among the sheep. I personally would want to know so if any of my friends wanted a custom, I would forewarn them. Lots of guys in my circle order custom frames..

I also see your stance on not releasing the builder name, because the hounds would troll him. At that point, would you blame the drama he's going to receive? You've also stated that he's built frames for other people in the time he had your parts and your money? I mean, c'mon..... Who is this guy

[whatwolf]

You've also stated that he's built frames for other people in the time he had your parts and your money? I mean, c'mon..... Who is this guy

That's actually not what I said at all. All the bikes he's built for people I know where in his queue before mine.

[Ozrider]

So we are at 10 pages and no further than page 1.



Parlee Z5, Trek Madone, Jonesman Custom

[velotrack]

So we are at 10 pages and no further than page 1.



Parlee Z5, Trek Madone, Jonesman Custom



You can go to user control panel and check out the signature part. Much easier than writing it out and it doesn't end up quoted.

[OtayBW]

To those of you that are telling me I might make things worse for other people by not naming this builder (yet) -- as far as I know (and according to what several people have told me) he is not taking on new clients and hasn't done so in a long time.

And for what it's worth, I have several friends that got bikes from this builder in the year I placed my order, and all had normal happy experiences and received their bikes in a timely manner, and are currently riding the crap out of them.

So, hold your horses, as it were. I want to see if I can get all my stuff and money back beforehand. I personally won't be gaining anything by naming him and I don't think anyone is losing anything by me delaying doing so. Except those of you who are impatient and are getting worked up.

And FFS, please don't "guess wildly" and spark speculation, this isn't a riddle. I was just trying to get some feedback from people who have dealt with this type of problem, and I'd like to thank all of you who have been generous with your time and knowledge.I think your only obligation here is to yourself. Hope your get your stuff back asap and all works out best for you. GL.

[tele]

I have to agree with you. I was involved in the Maietta disaster and the moderators of the Velocipede Salon definitely were biased in their treatment of those trying to seek some sort of resolution/get some answers. But since it's a privately owned forum, they can do whatever they want.

I must have been lucky to have received help/guidance from some of those ATH in that situation. Certainly not an ideal set of circumstances but YMMV I guess.

[buddybikes]

Perhaps matters like this should be done via PM. Person comes in, I have an order with joe xxxx and would like to PM people with his bikes on few details...

Problems can get solved without spreading wildfires. Then if a fire does need to be started least it is analyzed first.

[Peter P.]

Thanks Richard, for the clarification.

For those that ask for the builder to be outed: When I posted on forums on my bad experiences, I did not want to come across as vindictive and trying to ruin the reputation of a builder based on my experience, but I DID want to let others know who they were.

So in my posts I would mention "If you want to know who they are, PM me."

Those curious or interested enough would do so, and I would provide them in detail my tale of woe.

Word usually gets around just fine with my method without going nuclear on the internet, although I could understand why sometimes the nuclear option is necessary.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks Richard, for the clarification.

For those that ask for the builder to be outed: When I posted on forums on my bad experiences, I did not want to come across as vindictive and trying to ruin the reputation of a builder based on my experience, but I DID want to let others know who they were.

So in my posts I would mention "If you want to know who they are, PM me."

Those curious or interested enough would do so, and I would provide them in detail my tale of woe.

Word usually gets around just fine with my method without going nuclear on the internet, although I could understand why sometimes the nuclear option is necessary.
Always happy to add some facts to what reads like a tense moment that you remember only parts of. Otherwise you're just rewriting the narrative.

[soulspinner]

please let us know how this ends. If Im spending custom money this year don't want this to happen to me or anyone else on this board.........Whatwolf hope things work out well for you.

[weisan]

Please DO NOT attack the OP or make things any harder on that person. Do not put OP on a guilt trip either. He or she is NOT responsible for you or your friend losing your pants on any framebuilder who do not honor the contract.

Do your own research and due diligence before you commit. That's your responsibility.

This whole focus on "outting the name" and if you don't, all of the sudden you become public enemy no. 1 and you are doing a great disservice to the community is bull.

Measure your response.

Check your own heart.

David Kirk is David Kirk before he became David Kirk the framebuilder. The way he runs his business reflects his character, personal philosophy, the principles and values that he abide by. It has absolutely nothing to do with frame building.

As I have said before many times in the past, someone is an a-hole way before they put on a Lycra short and jersey or put a leg over a bike. Nothing will change that. They came as they were. Their conduct on the bike is a reflection of who they are, has nothing to do with cycling.

The OP reserves the final say on who or what to divulge.

And lastly, those of us who have lived long enough have gone through "dark times" in our life. We know what it's like to hit rock bottom.
Bad things happens. Leave a crack in the door, let a bit of light in, give someone some hope or the opportunity to recover. Don't shut that door. If you do, it might not be opened to you when it's your turn.

[oldpotatoe]

Please DO NOT attack the OP or make things any harder on that person. Do not put OP on a guilt trip either. He or she is NOT responsible for you or your friend losing your pants on any framebuilder who do not honor the contract.

Do your own research and due diligence before you commit. That's your responsibility.

This whole focus on "outting the name" and if you don't, all of the sudden you become public enemy no. 1 and you are doing a great disservice to the community is bull.

Measure your response.

Check your own heart.

David Kirk is David Kirk before he became David Kirk the framebuilder. The way he runs his business reflects his character, personal philosophy, the principles and values that he abide by. It has absolutely nothing to do with frame building.

As I have said before many times in the past, someone is an a-hole way before they put on a Lycra short and jersey or put a leg over a bike. Nothing will change that. They came as they were. Their conduct on the bike is a reflection of who they are, has nothing to do with cycling.

The OP reserves the final say on who or what to divulge.

And lastly, those of us who have lived long enough have gone through "dark times" in our life. We know what it's like to hit rock bottom.
Bad things happens. Leave a crack in the door, let a bit of light in, give someone some hope or the opportunity to recover. Don't shut that door. If you do, it might not be opened to you when it's your turn.

Well said, this IS about a bicycle frame afterall..not being snubbed on a liver donor list or something.

[firerescuefin]

Please DO NOT attack the OP or make things any harder on that person. Do not put OP on a guilt trip either. He or she is NOT responsible for you or your friend losing your pants on any framebuilder who do not honor the contract.

Do your own research and due diligence before you commit. That's your responsibility.

This whole focus on "outting the name" and if you don't, all of the sudden you become public enemy no. 1 and you are doing a great disservice to the community is bull.

Measure your response.

Check your own heart.

David Kirk is David Kirk before he became David Kirk the framebuilder. The way he runs his business reflects his character, personal philosophy, the principles and values that he abide by. It has absolutely nothing to do with frame building.

As I have said before many times in the past, someone is an a-hole way before they put on a Lycra short and jersey or put a leg over a bike. Nothing will change that. They came as they were. Their conduct on the bike is a reflection of who they are, has nothing to do with cycling.

The OP reserves the final say on who or what to divulge.

And lastly, those of us who have lived long enough have gone through "dark times" in our life. We know what it's like to hit rock bottom.
Bad things happens. Leave a crack in the door, let a bit of light in, give someone some hope or the opportunity to recover. Don't shut that door. If you do, it might not be opened to you when it's your turn.

My heart is fine. I harbor no issue with the OP, nor doubt her story, nor want anything else but a full resolution. But these threads are what they are. People that start them aren't looking for advice, but are using it as a last resort/leverage play against the builder (with the implied threat that I'm going to drop your name in here at some point and it will be cached forever)...and then 13 pages later, a community of people of people that are into bikes are frustrated because they've played the game (and been played somewhat). After watching this play out for about the 10th time since I joined in 2010, it all seems a bit overdone/tired.

I hope Whatwolf is able to use this thread for leverage....as it was always intended to be.

[Joachim]

Well said, this IS about a bicycle frame afterall..not being snubbed on a liver donor list or something.

Yes, there are worse things, but framebuilders like this have no place being a professional framebuilder. Especially if they take 'my' hard earned money and do not do their job. Peter P and I both had issues with Maietta, but I was not part of that special offer that led to a number of people waiting forever. Good thing he stopped building frames for compensation since this small niche area can do without that type of person.

[fuzzalow]

There is no duty or obligation to the OP to reveal who the builder is in this tale.

In fairness, this in its entirety is a one-sided sordid tale from a client whom seeks advice where there is really none to be had. Thus page upon page of angst with no result other than perhaps catharsis. That's OK, this forum can be a supportive community to that end also.

I hope the situation gets resolved to the OP's satisfaction.

[djg21]

If you used a credit card for the deposit you might be able to get your money back from them. I too was scammed out of half the price of a frame by a now non existent builder, who refused to refund my deposit. Luckily I checked with the credit company and they made good on it.

Of all the advice given in this thread, this is the most pertinent to prospective purchasers of relatively big-ticket items. If you use a credit card for payment, the credit card company affords you with buyer protection and can charge back the amount of any payment made to a non-performing vendor. If a frame builder cannot take a credit card payment, maybe think twice about doing business with that builder.

At this point, the OP should worry about herself, and the bloodlust here really is too much. Leave it alone. If the OP cannot resolve her situation, it's up to her to determine whether the builder should be "outed."

[AngryScientist]

So, hold your horses, as it were. I want to see if I can get all my stuff and money back beforehand. I personally won't be gaining anything by naming him and I don't think anyone is losing anything by me delaying doing so. Except those of you who are impatient and are getting worked up.



with this said i'm closing this one, i think we've gone far enough.

whatwolf - if you want this re-opened when you have any new information you want to share with us, PM me and i can open it back up.