simoni retraction today

[swoop]

ahh politics. it happened. not surprised by the retraction but... i don't buy it for a second and neither should you.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Simoni retracts Basso charge
By Agence France Presse
This report filed June 5, 2006

Two-time Giro d'Italia winner Gilberto Simoni on Monday retracted accusations that new champion Ivan Basso asked him to pay for a win during the 20th stage of this year's race.

Last month, Simoni claimed Basso had asked for money to let him win the 20th stage of the Giro after the pair were left alone on a breakaway to slug it out for victory.

Basso went on to win the stage by more than a minute but was stung by his fellow Italian's accusations after the finish.

But after being grilled for more than an hour by an Italian disciplinary commission in Rome, Simoni retracted his previous claims.

"I made some erroneous statements but I didn't want to damage Basso's reputation, certain things are part of the race," said Simoni, alluding to the common practice of Tour leaders to elicit help from a breakaway companion in exchange for allowing the companion to take the stage victory unopposed.

Simoni, who could now miss the Tour de France as he faces possible sanctions for bringing the sport into disrepute, was angry that Basso had ridden away from him on a tough mountain finish when he had waited for the CSC rider on a downhill section.

Straight after the race, he accused Basso of ungentlemanly conduct and of being "an extra-terrestrial," often a euphemism to suggest an opponent had doped.

Simoni could receive a fine or even a suspension, which would more than likely rule him out of July's Tour, although he has always had difficulty in the Grand Boucle.

"Simoni has denied everything. There was never any question of an agreement, even less so a sum of money," said the rider's lawyer Giuseppe Napoleone. "However, he was interviewed straight after the finish and he was flustered. But there was never any mention of numbers, we now want the affair to be closed, also for the sake of the Saunier-Duval team."

[BumbleBeeDave]

The guy's a very talented athlete and rider. But off the bike he is definitely a--uh, how can I say this most diplomatically . . .

. . . a Moron.

BBD

[atmo]

The guy's a very talented athlete and rider. But off the bike he is definitely a--uh, how can I say this most diplomatically . . .

. . . a Mormon.

BBD


he'll be right at home with all of us at provo.

[catulle]

uh, how can I say this most diplomatically . . .

. . . a Moron.

BBD

Not too kind...

[abstruse]

The guy's a very talented athlete and rider. But off the bike he is definitely a--uh, how can I say this most diplomatically . . .

. . . a Moron.

BBD


Tenekras ha Shanis okenjer manas'tik ensimilac ....ensimilac'tek? Walan sharoddasis feriothin'tan rusub'tek??... "Moron"

[obtuse]

hi pot it's kettle here.....

obtuse

[obtuse]

hi pot it's kettle here.....

you have no idea. he's doing what he needs to do to escape sanction. its common knowledge among the peloton that simoni was offered the stage.

obtuse

[atmo]

obtuse -
you gettin' Roy E. Munson-itis atmo?

[obtuse]

obtuse -
you gettin' Roy E. Munson-itis atmo?


yeah
obtuse

[obtuse]

yeah

obtuse

[William]

obtuse -
you gettin' Roy E. Munson-itis atmo?

Swelling of the Roy? Doesn't sound good. :no:



William :rolleyes:

[atmo]

Swelling of the Roy? Doesn't sound good. :no:



William :rolleyes:


preparation h is good for hemorroy e munsons atmo.

[Avispa]

...Simoni, who could now miss the Tour de France as he faces possible sanctions for bringing the sport into disrepute, was angry that Basso had ridden away from him on a tough mountain finish when he had waited for the CSC rider on a downhill section....

Everyday that goes by, this lovely sport of ours doesn't cease to amaze me... They sanction riders for some verbal altercation, but they allow them to go on when they dope!

This is just great!

[catulle]

Everyday that goes by, this lovely sport of ours doesn't cease to amaze me... They sanction riders for some verbal altercation, but they allow them to go on when they dope!

This is just great!

You're right. However, Simoni ought to have known that his allegations would be reduced to a case of his word against Basso's. And reckless accusations cannot go unheeded, atmo.

[1centaur]

"its common knowledge among the peloton that simoni was offered the stage."

If it's common knowledge then the order must have come from somebody else or Basso admitted it or Riis admitted it or... Which?

And as long as we're in common knowledge land, was he offered the stage and he accepted, then Basso double-crossed him? Was he offered the stage and he refused, then Basso smoked him and Simoni whined like baby? Why was the stage offered when there was no need? And hey, as long as we have an inside view, how much was he selling the stage for, and where were the proceeds to go?

[goonster]

off the bike he is definitely a--uh, how can I say this most diplomatically . . .

. . . a Moron.


I don't understand the Simoni hate.

It was there before this incident, and I suspect it is rooted in the notion that he never lived up to the statements ascribed to him by the press regarding Lance and the Tour.

Gibo is OK by me, and I also find it plausible that the (admittedly rash) statements he made after that stage were the honest words of a man who feels aggrieved.

[Grant McLean]

I don't understand the Simoni hate.

It was there before this incident, and I suspect it is rooted in the notion that he never lived up to the statements ascribed to him by the press regarding Lance and the Tour.

Gibo is OK by me, and I also find it plausible that the (admittedly rash) statements he made after that stage were the honest words of a man who feels aggrieved.

word.

I guess the armchair critics have never said something they later regret,
so let them cast their stones.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=213091&postcount=10

g

[obtuse]

"its common knowledge among the peloton that simoni was offered the stage."

If it's common knowledge then the order must have come from somebody else or Basso admitted it or Riis admitted it or... Which?

And as long as we're in common knowledge land, was he offered the stage and he accepted, then Basso double-crossed him? Was he offered the stage and he refused, then Basso smoked him and Simoni whined like baby? Why was the stage offered when there was no need? And hey, as long as we have an inside view, how much was he selling the stage for, and where were the proceeds to go?

simoni made the mistake of speaking his mind to the press. stages are bought and sold all the time. it was riis' call and my understanding is that basso thought better of it and rode simoni off his wheel....remember, its his trip and its not like the money would change hands untill the thing is said and done anyway. its a gentlemen's agreement and all that. the fact of the matter is basso asked simoni to go easy on the descent; something which simoni thought entitled him to the stage; basso then offered the stage to simoni per riis' directions for cash.....after this i have no idea what happened.

obtuse

[saab2000]

I don't understand the Simoni hate.

It was there before this incident, and I suspect it is rooted in the notion that he never lived up to the statements ascribed to him by the press regarding Lance and the Tour.

Gibo is OK by me, and I also find it plausible that the (admittedly rash) statements he made after that stage were the honest words of a man who feels aggrieved.

There is a great misunderstanding of Euro cycling in the US, even among enthusiasts. It is not PC. It is not gentlemen. These are not doctors and lawyers and it is not a friendly sport, like equestrian events or sailing. It is a vicious, brutal, hard sport which is practiced by generally lesser educated, emotional athletes who might not have any other chances except working in matress factories, or in the case of Italy, on road crews, construction companies or in ceramic factories. How's that for a run-on sentence?

There is too much analysis here of non-events over there.

There is no doubt in my mind that Simoni was offered the stage for sale. It is common knowledge that races are won and lost for money all the time, even big races. Sometimes really big races.

[stevep]

he offered me 2 gift certificates to red lobster if i would help him on the last climb...unfortunately i forgot my helmet and shoes at the start and had to chase among the team cars all day.
i did get carpal tunnel syndrome from hanging onto the saunier duval team car door handle, though...i made it over the pass with the car.
they forgot to put "cippolini handles " on the car... a grave mistake. they must have a few climbers on the team atmo.
so it was not all easy out there.

[Fixed]

word.

I guess the armchair critics have never said something they later regret,
so let them cast their stones.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=213091&postcount=10

g
amen bro

[fiamme red]

It is common knowledge that races are won and lost for money all the time, even big races. Sometimes really big races.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/be8ba68beb1c8fb7?hl=en&

"In his career Van Steenbergen won 952 races, 322 on the road and 630 on the track. And yet, according to many insiders he sold more races than he won."

[atmo]

There is a great misunderstanding of Euro cycling in the US, even among enthusiasts. It is not PC. It is not gentlemen. These are not doctors and lawyers and it is not a friendly sport, like equestrian events or sailing. It is a vicious, brutal, hard sport which is practiced by generally lesser educated, emotional athletes who might not have any other chances except working in matress factories, or in the case of Italy, on road crews, construction companies or in ceramic factories. How's that for a run-on sentence?

There is too much analysis here of non-events over there.

There is no doubt in my mind that Simoni was offered the stage for sale. It is common knowledge that races are won and lost for money all the time, even big races. Sometimes really big races.


i was agreeing with you except for the lesser educated, emotional athletes
statement. these guys may not have fine arts degrees, but i do not think
of them as eyesockets with strong legs and no brains atmo.

[obtuse]

i was agreeing with you except for the lesser educated, emotional athletes
statement. these guys may not have fine arts degrees, but i do not think
of them as eyesockets with strong legs and no brains atmo.


you've clearly never met growth hormone then?

obtuse

[atmo]

you've clearly never met growth hormone then?

obtuse


i actually have on many occasions. he started with
a nyc team i sponsored eons ago. i know of what you
speak atmo,but i was refering the that characterization
that the riders don't have the white collar sense that
rich folks employ when they do that whitbred and
america's cup boat shet.

[obtuse]

i actually have on many occasions. he started with
a nyc team i sponsored eons ago. i know of what you
speak atmo,but i was refering the that characterization
that the riders don't have the white collar sense that
rich folks employ when they do that whitbred and
america's cup boat shet.


hey-

when muffy and conrad play french lawn tennis or are tacking into a hard wind with a t shaped keel they're out for more blood than some inbred vlaamse dirt farmer riding a frucking bicycle in the rain down a cow path....back to vichysoise soup at the country club you can't get into or back to the schaarebeek mattress factory? who's catching more shi'ite when you fail?

i think we should probably ask butch rides about this though.

obtuse

[saab2000]

i was agreeing with you except for the lesser educated, emotional athletes
statement. these guys may not have fine arts degrees, but i do not think
of them as eyesockets with strong legs and no brains atmo.

I prolly coulda worded it better. I don't mean to be insulting or patronizing at all to them. But my buds in Switzerland mostly did relatively low level educations after their secondary school. They did not go on to University, or even take academic-type apprenticeships in Switzerland.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to be elitist at all. But the average cyclist in the US is probably university or college educated and has a professional type education and job. That is not the case with most cyclists in Europe. The demographics of cycling in Europe is generally quite different than in the US.

[Fixed]

bro I'm rare around here .
cheers

[atmo]

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to be elitist at all. But the average cyclist in the US is probably university or college educated and has a professional type education and job. That is not the case with most cyclists in Europe. The demographics of cycling in Europe is generally quite different than in the US.


the cyclists don't matter - we're talking the pro athletes.
in america i would wager that most of the pro have the
same lack of formal education that the european counter-
parts have. however, from my first-hand experience, many
of the domestic pros are not that sharp and they hope that
racing for cash in north america will fulfill the $12,000 dream,
whereas in europe, the non-educated pros are street savvy
enough to at least know their trade. they might not be reading
newsweek, but i think they are wise to their own world. the
major difference is that the yanks have that education opp-
ortunity handed to them and choose to sidestep in for a few
years of travel and tanlines and the euros do not.

[goonster]

It is a vicious, brutal, hard sport which is practiced by generally lesser educated, emotional athletes who might not have any other chances except working in matress factories, or in the case of Italy, on road crews, construction companies or in ceramic factories.

Dunno about that road crew. A gig at the ceramics factory, 36 hour workweek with full benefits and four weeks vacation to start is not such a bad gig. Make five trips a day to the espresso machine and reply to every suggestion by the supervisor with "subito?"

Ask me how I know.

You are correct about the sport being less solidly bourgeois there than here. Those guys are giving up higher education, and there's no such thing as "going back to college". That does't mean though that they're all the children of ditch diggers and dirt farmers. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Most have at least vocational training with completed apprenticeship, no?

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<He's doing what he needs to do to escape sanction.>>

I think that's exactly right. At best, he went back to the hotel after saying all this stuff and sat there and realized, "Uh-oh . . . " At worst the DS probably pulled him aside and had a little heart-to-heart with him.

Goonster, don't get me wrong. I don't "hate" Simoni at all. Anyone who has won the Giro twice and as many other races as he has deserves respect as a very talented athlete.

But what surprises me here is that he doesn't seem to be able to get rid of this habit of shooting his mouth off at the most inopportune times. He is not a small child. He's been around in life and you would think that by now he would have learned a thing or two about what not to say and when not to say it--namely, at the end of an important stage when he's mobbed by the press. If he doesn't quit it, there's a good chance that he may be remembered more for his habit of running his mouth than winning races.

BBD

[Grant McLean]

the cyclists don't matter - we're talking the pro athletes.
in america i would wager that most of the pro have the
same lack of formal education that the european counter-
parts have. however, from my first-hand experience, many
of the domestic pros are not that sharp and they hope that
racing for cash in north america will fulfill the $12,000 dream,
whereas in europe, the non-educated pros are street savvy
enough to at least know their trade. they might not be reading
newsweek, but i think they are wise to their own world. the
major difference is that the yanks have that education opp-
ortunity handed to them and choose to sidestep in for a few
years of travel and tanlines and the euros do not.

in my experience, those 'white collar' fancy edjemekated folks
ain't necessarily that bright...those endron guys come to mind.

g

[saab2000]

the cyclists don't matter - we're talking the pro athletes.
in america i would wager that most of the pro have the
same lack of formal education that the european counter-
parts have. however, from my first-hand experience, many
of the domestic pros are not that sharp and they hope that
racing for cash in north america will fulfill the $12,000 dream,
whereas in europe, the non-educated pros are street savvy
enough to at least know their trade. they might not be reading
newsweek, but i think they are wise to their own world. the
major difference is that the yanks have that education opp-
ortunity handed to them and choose to sidestep in for a few
years of travel and tanlines and the euros do not.

My buds used to be pros. Some of them have names which would be recognisable here. They ain't rocket scientists. But they sure do know a lot about red blood cells!!! You would recognise one as a former cyclocross big dog.

No doubt, they are very street smart and savvy in their own world. And they will not go hungry either. But the cycling after-life for most former pros is not a happy one either.

Most cyclists (as in casual riders, weekend racers, bike fanatics) in Europe, in my experience, average 'blue collar' dudes. Just my observation of having lived there for 15 years.

[obtuse]

<<He's doing what he needs to do to escape sanction.>>

I think that's exactly right.


we agree! hug? (but not in that hot tub.)

obtuse

[Johny]

... If he doesn't quit it, there's a good chance that he may be remembered more for his habit of running his mouth than winning races.

BBD

You mean Simoni being remembered by American fans as a moron...wait a minute...they only know LANCE. Take yellow. :beer:

[atmo]

Most cyclists (as in casual riders, weekend racers, bike fanatics) in Europe, in my experience, average 'blue collar' dudes. Just my observation of having lived there for 15 years.

agreed - but...
this has nothing to do with weekend warriors with
enough disposable income to afford cycling as a
hobby. this issue is about the working professional
cyclist and his common sense. i made my statement
wrt the juxtapostion of us based vs euro based pros
above atmo. i do not think the us based pros have
any more on the ball than their overseas counterparts.

[obtuse]

agreed - but...
this has nothing to do with weekend warriors with
enough disposable income to afford cycling as a
hobby. this issue is about the working professional
cyclist and his common sense. i made my statement
wrt the juxtapostion of us based vs euro based pros
above atmo. i do not think the us based pros have
any more on the ball than their overseas counterparts.


no in general they're a lot less "on the ball"; but it depends on how you define ball.

obtuse

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I only have the context of being Americans and being roughly familiar with American fans. Do European fans more easily dismiss outbursts like Simoni's? It's difficult for me to imagine any reasonable person, whether American or European, who's familiar with pro cycling NOT coming to some sort of judgement of Simoni based on this habit he has of saying some pretty stupid, inflammatory things . . .

BBD

[atmo]

no in general they're a lot less "on the ball"; but it depends on how you define ball.

obtuse


do beautiful things make them cry?

[atmo]

. . . I only have the context of being Americans and being roughly familiar with American fans. Do European fans more easily dismiss outbursts like Simoni's? It's difficult for me to imagine any reasonable person, whether American or European, who's familiar with pro cycling NOT coming to some sort of judgement of Simoni based on this habit he has of saying some pretty stupid, inflammatory things . . .

BBD


hey - you're a, what, 2 time winner of one of the biggest
sporting events in your country and your on an escape
on the hardest stage of the race, and the guy next to you
asks to slow down because he's not good enough to desecnd
with you at these speeds...
wrt the deal i don't know who said what to whom, nor do i care,
but if i softpedal and help my breakaway companion, i want
something for it. if i don't get it, i may blaspheme him simply
to vent. it's natural. it's called emotion, and we all have it.
otoh, if you've never raced and given up a favor, especially
in a break, this might all seem like fiction atmo.

[obtuse]

do beautiful things make them cry?

you'll have to ask roy munson about that.

obtuse

[saab2000]

Do European fans more easily dismiss outbursts like Simoni's?

BBD

They are probably barely aware he made such a statement. There is very little long-term analysis of races over there. "Race is over, when's the next race?"

Simoni's statement is more or less a non-event. A bit like Charles Barkely or Dennis Rodman when they would say/do outrageous things or shoot their mouth off in the heat of battle. Not a big deal and not worth dwelling on.

Just my $.02.

[atmo]

They are probably barely aware he made such a statement. There is very little long-term analysis of races over there. "Race is over, when's the next race?"

amen atmo.
Simoni's statement is more or less a non-event. A bit like Charles Barkely or Dennis Rodman when they would say/do outrageous things or shoot their mouth off in the heat of battle. Not a big deal and not worth dwelling on.

and those two did go to college.

[saab2000]

bro I'm rare around here .
cheers

More wisdom comes from Fixed than most of the rest of us.

[obtuse]

More wisdom comes from Fixed than most of the rest of us.


nah, the real wisdom comes from his godfather "butch rides".

obtuse

[Marcusaurelius]

ahh politics. it happened. not surprised by the retraction but... i don't buy it for a second and neither should you.

Simoni was angry he lost the stage and should have held his tongue in check. I think all this speculation about how he was offered the stage is just that--speculation--or horse manure. You choose? Then of course there's all the nonsense about races being bought and paid--well maybe in baseball or football but cycling. Methinks not. Again, I think it's pure fiction.

[Jason E]

Quite a thread.... I think I even missed dessert.

As to the controversy, and Gibo expecting something for waiting for him.....

Perhaps that's where the misunderstanding started. Basso claims he suggested they work together, this may have been interpretted as "wait up", but maybe Basso was just saying, "let's ride to the bottom together instead of you killing yourself to get away from me when I'm just gonna smoke your ancient *** once it gets vertical, biotch."*

Maybe, maybe not, but that seems the root of the problem.

As to the culture there of cycling v. here......

I've never been 18 in europe, and am not gonna pretend to be, but I know a kid on the U-23 US squad and we were talking about this. He has a decent head on his shoulders and a good eye for the world, for what it's worth. His anology to a lot of the young guys over there is that it is similar to inner city basketball here and the amateur/pro life is a way out for a lot of guys.

Sort of like NYC and the guys my coach when I was a junior called the Peanut Butter and Jelly Racers...

The PB & J racers are the guys that are rail thin living on Raman noodles, PB & J, etc, and ride all the time because the $50 at the finish line means a hell of a lot more to them then to most and they do anything they can to get it.

Well, that's all I got.








*Heard this on the Ham Radio and asked abtruse (http://forums.thepaceline.net/member.php?u=5033) to translate it....

[Avispa]

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to be elitist at all. But the average cyclist in the US is probably university or college educated and has a professional type education and job. That is not the case with most cyclists in Europe. The demographics of cycling in Europe is generally quite different than in the US.

I have to agree with Saab here... There is a great article on the last RIDE Magazine that talks about the Eastern block riders that went to race in Europe in the mid 90's and now most are almost destitue: Berzin, Ugrumov, Tchmil, etc. The article talks about how Ekimov and Konichev had to return to racing to pay for debts.

...the major difference is that the yanks have that education opportunity handed to them and choose to sidestep in for a few years of travel and tanlines and the euros do not.

Atmoissimo! Don't want to antagonize here, but I thought college was free in Europe . I could have gone to college in Europe after racing, but I chose the USA. I quiclky found out as a foreigner, that nobody hands you an education in the USA unless you are rich... In which case, I doubt if one would be racing a bike professionally or as a [real] serious amateur. I realize there are athletic scholarships, but the ones with [I]real money are reserved for the big US sports. The money I got from [track] scholarships in the US, would not even cover meals for a semester.

I personally raced to see how far I could go with it and then invest any money I would have made. But, I did not talk to Ferrari... Opps, sorry, I mean, I did not make it as far as to get paid very high, retire and not have to work... I was just at some point some fast amateur guy in my league. This allowed me to finance part of my education and help my relatives overseas with some of the cash I earned. It was a hard way to earn any money, but I surely kept it as rewarding and fun as I could! When it turned ugly, I just moved on....

As to the culture there of cycling v. here... but I know a kid on the U-23 US squad and we were talking about this.... His anology to a lot of the young guys over there is that it is similar to inner city basketball here and the amateur/pro life is a way out for a lot of guys.

And this is one of the reasons doping at the amateur level in Europe is higher [more so than at the pro-level] than in the USA. But almost no one talks about that because amateur racing does not make the big news [and therefore the big money] as pro racing does...

[swoop]

couple o things. euro pros most resemble american pro boxers. they tend to be working class farmers and miners and whatnot. they are tough tough boys... and cycling is a way out. the system resembles boxing.

secondly.. i did have unusual and rare access to events in this giro. i can tell you that i believe simoni. i got the news while it was happening and from very close proximity. and to me (and this is where i leave the info i was given and go into personal speculation).. i believe that basso (who was a close friend of simoni and is a nice guy.. intended to give simoni the stage after he soft pedaled the descent). i also believe that riis insisted on the 30k. the voice that says, "no gifts, this stage costs 30k" sounds much more that of riis than basso's. it very much sounds like a riis that is aware of every cent lost to gifts and isn't a fan of any patron like behavior.

notable is that 1st place in the giro only paid 40k. step back and not look at this as a simoni v. basso thing.. look at it as old school v. new school professional sports ethics. this was a changing of the guard. this is the first time i can think of where a euro took on the now predominant american pro athlete sensiblilty.

but yeah .. sounds like riis (speculation). i wish i had a way to confirm it.

listen to atmo.. he get's it. also.. simoni is not the weenie you think he is. media does not present reality.. it sells ad space by distorting things into stories that have a good guy and a bad guy.

[swoop]

. . . I only have the context of being Americans and being roughly familiar with American fans. Do European fans more easily dismiss outbursts like Simoni's? It's difficult for me to imagine any reasonable person, whether American or European, who's familiar with pro cycling NOT coming to some sort of judgement of Simoni based on this habit he has of saying some pretty stupid, inflammatory things . . .

BBD

again.. the tifosi were booing basso on the team bus. just because you didn't read about it in cycling news doesn't mean it didn't happen. simoni actually tends to say what he is thinking...and his thoughts tend to make sense when you look at what people's roles were supposed to be on the team. his criticism of cunego from the standpoint of simoni beng the team leader.. makes sense. simoni's frustration was palapable and appropriate to the team politics he was enduring.

rather than critique him personally.. you can actually get a lot of insight about what's going on within the team and the race if you trust that simoni is a bright, thoughtful, honest guy. if you can tolerate your own anxiety and not rush to the good guy bad guy place you all seem to go too... and look deeper into the situation.. try and imagine what is really going on in the race that this is what is being said out loud.

stop trying to render character judgements about guys you don't know and why not use all of this info to look deeper into the race. there is so much more going on than who wins the stage or who is good and who is bad. this way of experiencing sport is really simplistic and naive and you are missing so much of what's going on.

most pro racers have gone through so much to get there that they tend to be salt of the earth guys (gaggioli not included). there are a few with some mood disorders... hi vdb!.. but .. you know .. the sport does some stuff the brain.

[Wayne77]

obtuse -
you gettin' Roy E. Munson-itis atmo?

atmo check your PM's -for the other atmo that is.

[William]

Everyday that goes by, this lovely sport of ours doesn't cease to amaze me... They sanction riders for some verbal altercation, but they allow them to go on when they dope!

This is just great!

Perception is 9/10th's Pro cycling law (smoke & mirrors accounts for the remainder). atmo



William


PS: Never you mind that man behind the curtain.... :no:

[atmo]

atmo check your PM's -for the other atmo that is.
hey - check yours atmo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this is excellent advice:

<<if you can tolerate your own anxiety and not rush to the good guy bad guy place you all seem to go too...>>

Words to take note of.

It is often very difficult to overcome our cultural conditioning in this culture and I can fall victim as easily as anyone else.

BBD

[atmo]

. . . this is excellent advice:

<<if you can tolerate your own anxiety and not rush to the good guy bad guy place you all seem to go too...>>

Words to take note of.

It is often very difficult to overcome our cultural conditioning in this culture and I can fall victim as easily as anyone else.

BBD
.

[shaq-d]

props to swoop for some cool interesting posts. should write for mags, i say.

sd