Poll: Motors at your weekly club ride

[Elefantino]

Now that motorized doping is out of the shadows, what will be your reaction when it shows up at a local club ride, or a gran fondo?

[notsew]

Make them pull the whole time???

[Spdntrxi]

Make them pull the whole time???


Sounds good to me... Motopacing


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[Lewis Moon]

Motorpace.

[josephr]

I voted the first one --- but the wording on that sounds a little short to me. Its not that the person isn't welcome...just the motor isn't welcome. Bicycles are human powered vehicles -- not human+battery powered vehicles.

[Mark McM]

I voted the first one --- but the wording on that sounds a little short to me. Its not that the person isn't welcome...just the motor isn't welcome. Bicycles are human powered vehicles -- not human+battery powered vehicles.

Even if a battery powers the derailleur system?

[Wolfman]

^Dude, you _know_ what he meant!^

Or are you really that much of a retrogrouch? :)

[bicycletricycle]

we are all getting older, battery bikes helping people stay in the pack a little longer sounds all right to me.

[MattTuck]

I think in that other thread, someone said it could give you an extra 50 watts for 30 minutes. Not sure if that is true.

But, according to various marketing literature that I've read, you could easily net 50 watts with lighter, aero wheels, aero frame, special helmet, low rolling resistance tires with latex tubes, shaving legs, skin suit and optimized position. I'd say that if you show up to a group ride with a motor, you're not better or worse than the guy who shows up with the rest of this stuff.

[makoti]

Make them pull the whole time???

We have a winner!
I voted #2. Never miss the chance to be snakry.

[BobO]

I think in that other thread, someone said it could give you an extra 50 watts for 30 minutes. Not sure if that is true.

But, according to various marketing literature that I've read, you could easily net 50 watts with lighter, aero wheels, aero frame, special helmet, low rolling resistance tires with latex tubes, shaving legs, skin suit and optimized position. I'd say that if you show up to a group ride with a motor, you're not better or worse than the guy who shows up with the rest of this stuff.

I think in terms of a club ride, if it helps someone who always gets dropped on "that" climb stay with the group, it's OK. It's not being used to win a competition, just stay with some friends. That's a net positive for him and the group. Competition is an entirely different story.

[Ralph]

I'm a member of a very large bike club in Central Florida. Club has rides of all abilities on weekends, and other rides about every day.

One member who rides with a group usually shows up on a E Bike. He usually winds up leading the rides at a constant thoughtful no drop pace. I fell in behind that group on a century ride last year, and he pulled the group almost the whole way. And....he's a real nice guy. And thought he was doing everyone a big favor. No malice at all in his helping.

But....I don't/didn't like that. It wasn't like a real ride. More like a parade at 18 MPH. So not a fan of any kind of "motors" on a group ride.....if it gives them a huge advantage. I realize you're not talking about E bikes.

[djg21]

Make them pull the whole time???

Like the guy/gal on the tandem!

[Mark McM]

^Dude, you _know_ what he meant!^

Or are you really that much of a retrogrouch? :)

No, I don't - and neither did Mavic, when they introduced the first commercially available electronic shifting systems (Mektronic, followed by Zapp). The UCI rules say, both then and now, that a bicycle shall have no energy storage devices. Since it takes energy to move a derailleur, they used a system which took the shifting energy from the rotation of the pulleys to move the derailleur

A few years later, Shimano introduced their electronic system, which used a battery (stored energy) to move the derailleur. But the UCI decided (as they so often do) to ignore their own rules, and allow its use in racing.

If we can call allow the rider to use energy from a battery instead of from their muscles to move the derailleur, isn't the next logical step to allow the rider to use the energy from the battery instead of from their muscles to move the crank?

Personally, I can't think of any other human powered sport that allows electric motors of any kind to be used.

[MattTuck]

I think in terms of a club ride, if it helps someone who always gets dropped on "that" climb stay with the group, it's OK. It's not being used to win a competition, just stay with some friends. That's a net positive for him and the group. Competition is an entirely different story.

I understand this rationale, and I'm not unsympathetic... especially since I'm a heavier guy.

That said, it is a slippery slope. First it is one guy doing it to keep pace. Then it is a quarter of the group doing it so they are fresher at the end of the ride. The next thing you know, you're a group of motorcyclists.

Is our self-worth so tied to performance on the bike that we need to artificially boost it? Declining is a natural part of life. Accepting it with class and self awareness is probably a skill that folks could develop a bit more. There's something a little desperate about clinging to 'the glory days'. If they are really your friends, they'll slow down a bit for you.

[Louis]

Should I go for the sloping or the horizontal TT model?

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/03/e1_finial.jpg

[brockd15]

Finally, a good excuse for getting dropped...:p

[makoti]

Like the guy/gal on the tandem!

Well, they have TWO motors!

[BobO]

I understand this rationale, and I'm not unsympathetic... especially since I'm a heavier guy.

That said, it is a slippery slope. First it is one guy doing it to keep pace. Then it is a quarter of the group doing it so they are fresher at the end of the ride. The next thing you know, you're a group of motorcyclists.

Is our self-worth so tied to performance on the bike that we need to artificially boost it? Declining is a natural part of life. Accepting it with class and self awareness is probably a skill that folks could develop a bit more. There's something a little desperate about clinging to 'the glory days'. If they are really your friends, they'll slow down a bit for you.

I'd say that's where we each need to make our own choices. A guy in my Sunday group doping or using a motor does little to my own sense of self-worth. The fact that he beats me up a climb doesn't harm me. I know whether or not I did that climb well in my own terms.

Groups tend to form around ability level. If a couple of guys with motors start blowing the group away, they will get the old see ya later salute at some point.

[torquer]

The UCI rules say, both then and now, that a bicycle shall have no energy storage devices. Since it takes energy to move a derailleur...
If we want to get all strict constructionist about this, don't we need to toss out anything with batteries (certainly "energy storage devices") like computers and power meters?
Sure, it takes energy to move a derailleur, but is that energy propelling the bike?
Good point about cycling being unique in allowing electric motors, but don't racing sailboats require a small armada of support (motor)boats? I know that my dad's sailplane relied on a tow plane (or winch, in the really olden days) to get airborne. Don't recall any debates about that threatening the purity of unpowered flight.

[Mark McM]

If we want to get all strict constructionist about this, don't we need to toss out anything with batteries (certainly "energy storage devices") like computers and power meters?
Sure, it takes energy to move a derailleur, but is that energy propelling the bike?
Good point about cycling being unique in allowing electric motors, but don't racing sailboats require a small armada of support (motor)boats? I know that my dad's sailplane relied on a tow plane (or winch, in the really olden days) to get airborne. Don't recall any debates about that threatening the purity of unpowered flight.

A computer or power meter is not intrinsic to the operation of the bike - they may monitor the action, but the bike functions just fine without them.

Likewise, the support boats in a sailing race don't propel the boat, or even touch the boat in anyway. Derailleur movement is a lot like the winches used to deploy and adjust the sails on a racing boat - the winches don't propel the boat, but they still don't allow electric motors to operate them - they employ big powerful men (and their muscle power).

A sailplane tow plane is a lot like the lift in a ski race - the participants might use a motor to get to the starting point, but the race doesn't start until the motor has been removed from the equation.

But all of these (sailing, soaring and skiing) actually use some other form of power (wind, thermals, gravity), and are not strictly human powered like cycling is - or at least, what it is supposed to be.

[Rusty Luggs]

...but do they have disc brakes......?

Seriously, I'd find real cyclists to ride with.

[Steve in SLO]

Motor in a group ride?
Unless it was somebody's friend with an e-bike, I probably wouldn't be riding with that group.

Motor in a Gran Fondo?
Step one: Take frame pump
Step two: Insert in front wheel of offender

[Seramount]

I ride for fitness and the joy of riding.

don't really give two ·····s what some random mope does in a group ride.

I might point at them and laugh if I find out they have a motor tho...

[Elefantino]

Seems from the reax like it's no big thing.

[Louis]

Seems from the reax like it's no big thing.

Well, it is just a club ride, not a race or anything with rules and truly competitive.

[Russian bear]

Easy, just drop them ;)

[Pelican]

The QS-Etixx boys didn't seem to mind when I showed up to their group ride.

https://www.instagram.com/p/2gvQljlt3O/Riding with Cav (https://www.instagram.com/p/2gvQljlt3O/)

Yeah, that's an ebike.

[bikingshearer]

To me, there is a lot of over-thinking about this. If a two-wheeled mode of transportation can be propelled by both pedals and a motor, it is not a bicycle. It's a moped. Riding a moped is not riding a bike.

Whether someone on a moped is welcome on a bike ride is a matter of personal choice, I suppose (I vote "no" unless I want to do some motorpacing, which happens about once every ten years).

But going forward, let's call a spade a spade. Pedals + motor = moped. Pedals + motor certainly does not equal a bicycle.

[Pelican]

Pedals + motor = moped. Pedals + motor certainly does not equal a bicycle.

Thankfully the State of California disagrees with you.

[Peter P.]

But, according to various marketing literature that I've read, you could easily net 50 watts with lighter, aero wheels, aero frame, special helmet, low rolling resistance tires with latex tubes, shaving legs, skin suit and optimized position.

I know you didn't make the original "50 watt" claim, but I don't believe that's true. Can you produce real numbers? Also, I think some of the enhancements would have to be excluded as they would not normally be used on typical road/group rides i.e., a special (aero) helmet or skin suit.

[Peter P.]

That said, it is a slippery slope. First it is one guy doing it to keep pace. Then it is a quarter of the group doing it so they are fresher at the end of the ride. The next thing you know, you're a group of motorcyclists.

Is our self-worth so tied to performance on the bike that we need to artificially boost it? Declining is a natural part of life. Accepting it with class and self awareness is probably a skill that folks could develop a bit more. There's something a little desperate about clinging to 'the glory days'. If they are really your friends, they'll slow down a bit for you.

Exactly.

The cyclist who first uses it to keep from getting dropped morphs into the cyclist who wants to "join" the lead group, chase down the breakaway or be a "participant" in the town line sprint. It will quickly devolve as more cyclists buy into the motor thing just to remain competitive, even in group rides.

[PFSLABD]

I get dropped with or without motors so what's the problem?:D

[PFSLABD]

The poll should have had a choice: "Just wait for their battery to run down, and drop them."

[MattTuck]

I know you didn't make the original "50 watt" claim, but I don't believe that's true. Can you produce real numbers? Also, I think some of the enhancements would have to be excluded as they would not normally be used on typical road/group rides i.e., a special (aero) helmet or skin suit.

My post was a little tongue in cheek. Not meant to be taken so literally. But, according to the vivax website, the actual amount is 200 watts.

Sophisticated motor power is hidden in the bike壮 seat tube. It only weights 1.8 kg (inkl. battery). Press the button and the motor delivers 200 watts to the crankshaft. Press the button again and the motor stops. Without motor power the bike functions as normal without any kind of resistance. The Lithium-Ion high-performance battery, which fits into a conventional saddlebag, provides you with motor-assisted cycling lasting for min. 60 minutes (6 Ah) or min. 90minutes (9 Ah). The special design of the drive unit allows it to be built into any bicycle frame with the requisite seat tube internal diameter of 31.6 mm or 30.9 mm and is therefore invisible on the bicycle except the on/off switch, which is unobtrusively located on the bar end.

[Pierre]

we are all getting older, battery bikes helping people stay in the pack a little longer sounds all right to me.

I think I'm of the same opinion. As an example, If I ended up getting injured but I still really craved my Saturday morning ride with my buddies, I might be tempted to put a motor in there to help me keep up. And honestly I would hope that my riding mates could understand that. However, it goes without saying that if you have a motor onboard, you should NOT gunning it off the front, pushing the pace, or winning any sprints. That would just be bad form.

...thinking about this further though, I'm not sure I could actually do it (that is, put a motor in there).

[bikingshearer]

Thankfully the State of California disagrees with you.

No doubt about that.

But the question wasn't whether such devices are street-legal. It was whether we would want to have one along on a bike ride with us. My default setting is to say no, I'd rather not ride with someone on a motorized bike, although I can certainly think of exceptions and special circumstances. As with most things, YMMV.

[Pelican]

My default setting is to say no, I'd rather not ride with someone on a motorized bike, although I can certainly think of exceptions and special circumstances. As with most things, YMMV.

We should all try defaulting to yes. Any person on a bike is a friend of mine.

Motor or not, I'd rather have them on two wheels next to me, than on four wheels behind.

[josephr]

We should all try defaulting to yes. Any person on a bike is a friend of mine.

Motor or not, I'd rather have them on two wheels next to me, than on four wheels behind.

I completely understand your point...keeps the groups together, helps those who struggle, but when leading a group ride, a lot of time is spent hanging out with the not so fast folks. I actually enjoy that part, particularly when its someone that sort of new and they're challenging themselves to a much longer distance.

I can easily imagine a situation where a person using a motor decides they want to come on our publicly announced group metric --- their battery runs out of juice after 40 miles -- 22 miles left of them totally dogging it. I'd hang back out of obligation, but I'd definitely feel duped.

[bikingshearer]

We should all try defaulting to yes. Any person on a bike is a friend of mine.

Motor or not, I'd rather have them on two wheels next to me, than on four wheels behind.

You make an interesting point. And as I creep ever more quickly up to and into my years of dotage, I very well could change my mind.

But for now, I'd prefer not to. You disagree. I have no problem with that, and I bet that, except for the fact that you can time my climbs with a sun dial, we would have a good time on a ride together.

[Mark McM]

We should all try defaulting to yes. Any person on a bike is a friend of mine.

Motor or not, I'd rather have them on two wheels next to me, than on four wheels behind.

I'm more interested in how smooth, steady and predictable a person rides, than the relative ease of their pedaling. If a person can ride a smooth and steady paceline, keeps within the speed and tempo of the group, and is generally courteous and friendly, I'd be fine with them whether or not they had electric assist.

If they used the electric assist to attack the group, or to push the pace on the uphills, that would be quite rude and unwanted, but if they generally blended into the speed and pace of the group, but just used the electric assist to help them keep pace with the group on the uphills, I don't see why that would be a problem.

(All that being said, there are still plenty of group ride jerks without electric assist as well.)