Training - Traditional Base vs Sweetspot

[Splash]

Hello all.

What does the Traditional Base Training regime provide that Sweetspot Training cannot?

Splash

[MattTuck]

How would you define those two terms?

I've never heard of either.

[jabbahop]

http://blog.trainerroad.com/base-training-how-to-decide-your-best-approach/

My takeaway

If you have a lot of time to train, traditional can provide a broader aerobic engine and can help sugar dominant athletes start to burn a higher percent fat but it requires lots of hours at low intensity.

Sweetspot base is better for anyone that can't dedicate Lots of time as it provides some intensity in the shorter workouts.

Might not have it exactly right but I think that is close to THEIR opinion.

[Splash]

How would you define those two terms?

I've never heard of either.

Here you go..

Base Defintion -
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition

Sweetspot Definition -
http://turbotripping.com/sweet-spot-training/


Hope this helps you Matt.

Splash

[Splash]

http://blog.trainerroad.com/base-training-how-to-decide-your-best-approach/

My takeaway

If you have a lot of time to train, traditional can provide a broader aerobic engine and can help sugar dominant athletes start to burn a higher percent fat but it requires lots of hours at low intensity.

Sweetspot base is better for anyone that can't dedicate Lots of time as it provides some intensity in the shorter workouts.

Might not have it exactly right but I think that is close to THEIR opinion.

Thanks Jabbahop

Splash

[shovelhd]

Another "it depends" open ended question from Splash.

Base training is typically higher volume and lower intensity. The goal is to get your body used to riding volume.

Sweet spot intervals are longer intervals (20-40 minutes) of steady pace at just below threshold, no more than 10w lower.

What you should be doing, the pros and cons of each, why focus on them now, are all "it depends" counter questions.

No matter what the answers are, if you are training for racing a complete season, be very careful of your sweet spot volume early, because the effects of too much of this will show up months in the future. Sweet spot feels good. It's like candy. Don't eat to much of it if your objective is a long racing season.

[bikerider888]

Sweet spot intervals are longer intervals (20-40 minutes) of steady pace at just below threshold, no more than 10w lower.

No, not correct. Sweet spot is defined by most as 84% to 97% of FTP. Stating 10w below FTP without the context of FTP is not useful. It's also wrong. Rider with FTP of 300 would have a range of -48w to -9w of FTP.

You might be the only one I've heard put such dramatic disclaimers on this type of riding and depict mysterious future perils without offering proof or references.

[MattTuck]

Splash, are you training to race this year? Where do you live? I forget if this has already been discussed, I'm curious if you are riding indoors or outdoors right now.

[AngryScientist]

Training...

what are you training for?

[shovelhd]

No, not correct. Sweet spot is defined by most as 84% to 97% of FTP. Stating 10w below FTP without the context of FTP is not useful. It's also wrong. Rider with FTP of 300 would have a range of -48w to -9w of FTP.

You might be the only one I've heard put such dramatic disclaimers on this type of riding and depict mysterious future perils without offering proof or references.

I'm not Joe Friel. Take whatever I say FWIW. Whatever I said was based on my own experience and the advice of my coach. You can choose to ignore it if you want.

[benb]

I don't know if I can find it again but just yesterday I had read something on the Training with Power blog about Tempo being the zone you want to use during base if you don't have HUGE amounts of time.

Just had a meeting with a coach last night too and it sounds like he's going to recommend the same thing for me.

The really low true endurance range stuff was described on the blog as what you do if you're a pro and you have 6 hours to ride every day during base. But if you ride that way as an amateur who's training 1 hour a day during the week it won't do anything for you.

[MattTuck]

There are no short cuts to fitness, that's for sure. I'd suggest, if you have the time, the 6 hours per day of endurance base mileage.

[benb]

There are no short cuts to fitness, that's for sure. I'd suggest, if you have the time, the 6 hours per day of endurance base mileage.

Why would you be on here if you had 6 hours a day to ride? ;)

[ceolwulf]

I don't know if I can find it again but just yesterday I had read something on the Training with Power blog about Tempo being the zone you want to use during base if you don't have HUGE amounts of time.



Just had a meeting with a coach last night too and it sounds like he's going to recommend the same thing for me.



The really low true endurance range stuff was described on the blog as what you do if you're a pro and you have 6 hours to ride every day during base. But if you ride that way as an amateur who's training 1 hour a day during the week it won't do anything for you.


Slight temporary diversion: what's that blog address?

[bikerider888]

There are no short cuts to fitness, that's for sure. I'd suggest, if you have the time, the 6 hours per day of endurance base mileage.

The pro's I know absolutely are not tooling around for 6 hrs at "base" intensity. They may be spending 6 hrs on their bikes but there is a ton of volume of work at/near FTP. This isn't 1982 after all.

[spartanKid]

I don't know if I can find it again but just yesterday I had read something on the Training with Power blog about Tempo being the zone you want to use during base if you don't have HUGE amounts of time.

Just had a meeting with a coach last night too and it sounds like he's going to recommend the same thing for me.

The really low true endurance range stuff was described on the blog as what you do if you're a pro and you have 6 hours to ride every day during base. But if you ride that way as an amateur who's training 1 hour a day during the week it won't do anything for you.

This is what Friel suggests as well. You need to get to a certain level of work to provide enough stress to elicit adaptations to training. You can do this with intensity or volume, or a mix of both. People low on time (volume) need to up the intensity.

[AngryScientist]

my uninformed feeling is that adding intensity without at least somewhat of a base is a recipe for stress related injuries and quicker burnout.

as i and others said above, i think it does depend on what the actual training goals are.

[ghammer]

but wouldn't you argue that the local garden-variety racer who has been racing for at least a decade would have enough "base"? and that by sticking to sweet spot (or middle) might provide the best results if you have very limited time? just throwing out there. i too think about this a lot but like everyone else, i have very little extra available time due to family duties, work and inclement weather. i'm racing this year and am relying on close to 3 decades of "base" as i feed my system consistent doses of middle/sweet spot whenever i can. indoors, no less.

[nooneline]

but wouldn't you argue that the local garden-variety racer who has been racing for at least a decade would have enough "base"? and that by sticking to sweet spot (or middle) might provide the best results if you have very limited time? just throwing out there. i too think about this a lot but like everyone else, i have very little extra available time due to family duties, work and inclement weather. i'm racing this year and am relying on close to 3 decades of "base" as i feed my system consistent doses of middle/sweet spot whenever i can. indoors, no less.

I would agree that.

Many amateur athletes don't actually need *endurance.* And, much "endurance" training that I personally see is not really sufficient to stimulate significant endurance gains.

What many riders need, I think, is the capacity to ride longer at a level of intensity that is greater than endurance pace. And much of that can be accomplished by, well working that area! Sweet Spot is a great way to do it, and it's a far more tolerable zone to allocate a big proportion of training than, say, threshold or vo2max training.

Personally, I have always done a lot of Sweet Spot training during a few key times:
1: starting to get pre-season fit. if i've taken a month or more off the bike i generally need to focus on introducing sweet spot training into my riding gently, gradually, and i can use it to monitor more general aspects of fitness. how hard sweet spot feels is a good measure of whether or not i'm ready to bump it up.
2. "base training." for over five years i've lived in minnesota, where often, temperatures and snow make the wintertime base training that I was used to on the east coast basically impossible. In order to stay fit and get ready for spring crit season (which often starts in the same week as single-digit temps, snow still on the ground, etc), one needs to keep intensity going through the winter; working on sweet spot on the trainer or rollers is a good way to ensure efficiency of time spent, for lack of a large amount of time to spend (no way i'm spending 12 or more hours a week on a trainer or rollers) - and is a good way to lighten the load if one is doing a "reverse periodization" thing with focusing on high-power work during the offseason.

Once the season starts I generally forcibly separate my efforts a lot more, and sweet spot goes away in favor of either threshold work, or easier endurance training that involves group rides mostly below sweet spot. however, one can bump up the stress level of a long ride by ensuring some good amounts of time spent at sweet spot.

[benb]

The pro's I know absolutely are not tooling around for 6 hrs at "base" intensity. They may be spending 6 hrs on their bikes but there is a ton of volume of work at/near FTP. This isn't 1982 after all.

Who knows.. maybe they're "in shape all year round", particularly if they do cross maybe it's pretty short. It does sound like most of them do base for a month or two once a year though. (I've frequently heard it said that your base can degrade while you're actively racing depending on the type of racing.)

And how would you know what they're doing? The power outputs listed in magazine articles, etc.. would make it sound like they're probably riding fairly fast even when they're doing "Zone 2" stuff.

[baker]

I just finished the TrainerRoad 4 week traditional base, mid volume III training block. I chose it because I had already done about a month of unstructured base, and I wanted to integrate more (sub-threshold) intensity for greater efficiency. I liked it.

First, even the "Traditional Base" plans TrainerRoad offers have a lot of tempo, sweet spot, and some threshold, maybe 3+ hours a week.

Second, it's all about the TSS (Training Stress Score). The idea of sweet spot (as I understand it) is to accumulate roughly equivalent TSS to low intensity base, in less time. But you can't do too much intensity without also accumulating a lot of fatigue, so you stay below threshold to build fitness while not falling into a fatigue hole that you can't recover from (what I think is what shovelhd describes). Form = Fitness - Fatigue.

I've done 100% Z2 base training in previous years, and though I enjoyed it and had good results, I don't have time for it this year, and honestly I expect this new style of training to work better, if the first month is any indication.

If you set your FTP right, and listen to your body you should be fine with either program.

[Splash]

.... some fascinating reading as usual.. thank you all.

i live in Melbourne, Australia. Melbourne is colder, wetter, busier compared to where i recently lived up in the hotter northern territory of Australia. Accordingly, I have to change my training regime to more indoors than outdoors.

We are currently in Summer, heading into Autumn. I have a few riding events planned from June onwards. Training for these events - mainly longer distance and hill climbs (no crits). I am using my TACX NEO and a dedicated bike first FTP ever reading taken a few days ago at 185W. I have TR, TP Premium and Strava Premium. I have not ridden much lately due to the usual mid-life stuff (career, working long hours, putting a kid though expensive boarding school and a stressed job). So, these events will force me to aim for something and get me back into fitness I had whilst living in NT.

Wanting to know what the Training Base regime has that the Sweetspot training does not have, some good discussion already around this but more would be appreciated.


SPlash

[djg21]

I'm not Joe Friel. Take whatever I say FWIW. Whatever I said was based on my own experience and the advice of my coach. You can choose to ignore it if you want.

I always though of the sweet spot or SST as the harder end of tempo, where I can ride moderately hard and moderately fast but also relatively comfortably for extended periods. It's a grey area: not quite hard enough to push up FTP from below; and too hard to build the endurance engine. I'm not Joe Friel either and my understanding is basic at best.

[Chris]

SST and threshold training (2x20, etc.) has been the darling at the ball for the last several years. Lot's of people say it's the best bang for the buck. It makes sense to me. Then along comes the polarized model, with lots of good science behind it (something a lot of training methodology typically lacks). It's basically completely counter to the threshold model.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/

This is a good summary of the research by Stephen Seiler, Ph.D.
http://athletictimemachine.com/2014/09/15/revisiting-polarized-training/

[shovelhd]

I always though of the sweet spot or SST as the harder end of tempo, where I can ride moderately hard and moderately fast but also relatively comfortably for extended periods. It's a grey area: not quite hard enough to push up FTP from below; and too hard to build the endurance engine. I'm not Joe Friel either and my understanding is basic at best.

We are in agreement.

There's nothing wrong with it in measured doses but a steady diet of it has consequences for racers with long seasons. If one is short on time they would be better off doing intervals.

[Ti Designs]

People do like to focus on just one thing...

I'll explain this in math terms 'cause that's how I see the world:

If you're looking to maximize A x B, you can't just look at the value of A or B, if either one is near zero you wind up with a small number.

Right about now you're wondering what Ed is going on about... All of the studies about training are done on populations, which we hope generate a normal distribution curve. People try to apply that date to an individual, usually themselves. I have a few data sets from studies on polarization, "sweet spot" and high intensity interval training, and the outcome of any of those programs really depends on who you are. HIIT training had almost 20% "low responders", with 8% of those being in the "non responder" range. All of the studies have weeding out in their selection process, so it can only be worse in the general population (can't say that about the paceline forum, we're all on the far right side of that curve...) I don't have data on injuries, but some quick math can tell me what the output was compared to the starting numbers. You would expect to see the high intensity training to have the highest drop-out rate, but it turned out to be the polarization method - almost certainly because of the length of the study.

My point in all of this is that lots of people push training programs with charts and graphs, and they like to list their degrees and certifications. Who's checking if they are a responder to those programs?

[bikerider888]

So the nice thing about having a powermeter, using it, and applying regular FTP testing is you will know if training is working or not. For those who eschew training with power then other metrics such as race results (assuming you race) or group ride performance can be useful.

In my experience, and a number of those I coached (I no longer do that) focusing on FTP and VO2 work yielded far better improvements on a semi-annual and annual basis. No question.

I know without even wasting 6 to 8 weeks trying that if all I did was low intensity riding (even for 30+ hrs/week) my threshold would be lower at the end of that block. There would not be any magical improvement later in the season either.

I know because personally I've done the above and the results sucked. I've also done only VO2 work all winter (3 days on, 2 off) and had the best season of my life. It was brutally hard but the most effective training. A better personal balance for me is mostly FTP work (harder than sweet spot) and moderate VO2 work. Almost year round.

This is what we did 20, 30 years ago. Maybe it works for some, probably because doing intervals all the time is mentally challenging and those who avoid it seek to minimize the benefits to those who embrace it.

[benb]

I just bought my first PM, still getting used to using it, but one of the lessons I've already learned is if I was going to go out and do either the low intensity endurance stuff or true recovery rides, I'd essentially need to do it on a MTB or other bike with a triple and near 1:1 gearing.

Without the power meter I essentially can't really climb a lot of the 1-5minute hills at my natural cadence with the gearing I would normally have without going over FTP. Fairly certain mine is around 240w right now. I was out yesterday trying to do "Zone 3" and I have a 34x25 low gear right now and that was not low enough to go over some of the hills without a) walking b) riding in the 250-300w range. (I of course chose B) I have a feeling later in the season my FTP is probably over 250w by a bit and all of a sudden it does become possible to do those lower intensity rides correctly. At the end of the ride I have my normalized power dead on with what it's supposed to be, and I was even doing that for the sections of the ride correctly, but up the hills forget it.

My guess is over the years a lot of the people without a PM are like me and don't even know what a recovery ride or endurance ride is actually like and they THINK they're doing low intensity base when they're actually riding "sweet spot" for significant parts of the ride. I remember going on "base" rides and can only think of 1-2 where we were actually getting into our lowest gears and crawling up the hills at low intensity.

[nooneline]

My guess is over the years a lot of the people without a PM are like me and don't even know what a recovery ride or endurance ride is actually like and they THINK they're doing low intensity base when they're actually riding "sweet spot" for significant parts of the ride. I remember going on "base" rides and can only think of 1-2 where we were actually getting into our lowest gears and crawling up the hills at low intensity.

i agree with this, especially the first half of your first sentence.

the two most common training mistakes are not going hard enough on your hard days... and not going easy enough on your easy days.

[PFSLABD]

Six hours per day? I once ran into an old mountaineer at North Conway, NH. He told me that he rode his bike 110 miles a day to train for his mountain climbing jaunts. My body wouldn't allow me to ride that much in a week. I have to have one day of rest. I guess it's all you're used to doing, but even with my 3 to 4 days of riding, I'm managing to do at least 190 to over 200 miles a week, which is better than I was ever able to accomplish when I worked for a living. Retirement has its good points.

[shovelhd]

i agree with this, especially the first half of your first sentence.

the two most common training mistakes are not going hard enough on your hard days... and not going easy enough on your easy days.

Exactly.

I always did base every year even though I have piles of miles in my legs. Base isn't only LSD.

[MattTuck]

I just bought my first PM, still getting used to using it, but one of the lessons I've already learned is if I was going to go out and do either the low intensity endurance stuff or true recovery rides, I'd essentially need to do it on a MTB or other bike with a triple and near 1:1 gearing.

Without the power meter I essentially can't really climb a lot of the 1-5minute hills at my natural cadence with the gearing I would normally have without going over FTP. Fairly certain mine is around 240w right now. I was out yesterday trying to do "Zone 3" and I have a 34x25 low gear right now and that was not low enough to go over some of the hills without a) walking b) riding in the 250-300w range. (I of course chose B) I have a feeling later in the season my FTP is probably over 250w by a bit and all of a sudden it does become possible to do those lower intensity rides correctly. At the end of the ride I have my normalized power dead on with what it's supposed to be, and I was even doing that for the sections of the ride correctly, but up the hills forget it.

My guess is over the years a lot of the people without a PM are like me and don't even know what a recovery ride or endurance ride is actually like and they THINK they're doing low intensity base when they're actually riding "sweet spot" for significant parts of the ride. I remember going on "base" rides and can only think of 1-2 where we were actually getting into our lowest gears and crawling up the hills at low intensity.

I don't think that spending some time at a higher intensity during an endurance ride will do anything to mitigate the effects of the endurance ride. Even if you spend 10 minutes at a higher power to climb a hill, if 1:50 is endurance miles, it is ok. Still counts towards endurance. Your body will still respond.

Different story for recovery. Doing that too hard is bad.

[sandyrs]

I just bought my first PM, still getting used to using it, but one of the lessons I've already learned is if I was going to go out and do either the low intensity endurance stuff or true recovery rides, I'd essentially need to do it on a MTB or other bike with a triple and near 1:1 gearing.

Without the power meter I essentially can't really climb a lot of the 1-5minute hills at my natural cadence with the gearing I would normally have without going over FTP. Fairly certain mine is around 240w right now. I was out yesterday trying to do "Zone 3" and I have a 34x25 low gear right now and that was not low enough to go over some of the hills without a) walking b) riding in the 250-300w range. (I of course chose B) I have a feeling later in the season my FTP is probably over 250w by a bit and all of a sudden it does become possible to do those lower intensity rides correctly. At the end of the ride I have my normalized power dead on with what it's supposed to be, and I was even doing that for the sections of the ride correctly, but up the hills forget it.

My guess is over the years a lot of the people without a PM are like me and don't even know what a recovery ride or endurance ride is actually like and they THINK they're doing low intensity base when they're actually riding "sweet spot" for significant parts of the ride. I remember going on "base" rides and can only think of 1-2 where we were actually getting into our lowest gears and crawling up the hills at low intensity.

Disregard this if you're not from Boston like I think you are for some reason...

The Minuteman is very good for recovery rides. No serious gradients means no need to ever go over 200w.

But also, 30 seconds here and there above recovery power is not going to completely ruin your recovery. I find most of the hills longer than that can be avoided around here.

[benb]

Heh.. great idea on the Minuteman for recovery rides. Let's say I can almost see the Minuteman from the end of my driveway.

I do ride on the Minuteman, but mostly just towing my son in his Burley Trailer. It really is good for recovery.

[sandyrs]

Heh.. great idea on the Minuteman for recovery rides. Let's say I can almost see the Minuteman from the end of my driveway.

I do ride on the Minuteman, but mostly just towing my son in his Burley Trailer. It really is good for recovery.

I think a lot of local dedicated cyclists tend to forget about it because it's so congested, but when you don't need to go fast who cares! :beer:

[guido]

In the Boston western burbs we have the Nashua River Rail Trail to fill that niche...

[leftyfreak]

Heh.. great idea on the Minuteman for recovery rides. Let's say I can almost see the Minuteman from the end of my driveway.


Ha! You and me both. Although I do have to roll down the hill from the center of town to get there. We should try to hook up for a ride some time!

[MattTuck]

ahhh, the minute man. I remember it well. I almost feel bad for you folks ;)

[Ti Designs]

I think a lot of local dedicated cyclists tend to forget about it because it's so congested

Yeh, at 6:30am there are deer, turkeys and idiots...


On Thursday mornings there's a part road part cross ride from Bedford center, just up the hill from the end of the path (kinda near Leftyfreak's house). We try to find the local trails and baked goods...

[kgreene10]

Scanning through the thread, I see a huge variety of interpretations of "sweet spot", "intensity", and "base" as well as training theories that are associated with the 1970s through the present.

Perhaps what matters most here is that Splash said his FTP is currently 185w. Unless he is very light, that means he needs to build lots of strength, increase pedaling efficiency, and enhance comfort on the bike. Efficiency and comfort just require hours in the saddle. Strength can be increased with early season weight room sessions (Friel has a nice periodization) or on-the-bike low cadence, low gear intervals (i.e., pushing a hard gear really slow up a steep hill). So I would focus there for another season or two before amping it up.

Once it's time to make bigger gains, its' worthwhile experimenting to see whether you are the type that responds better to SST (in my book, 80-90% of FTP held for 1-3 hours -- medium not high intensity) or to HIIT (30 sec - 2 min max efforts - this is high intensity!). I did a lot of SST for years and made progress but now I'm making much faster progress with lots of HIIT. I still do SST for 2.5-3 hours once every couple of weeks as it's the early season.

A lot of guys in my club ride LSD and layer in some SST but rarely or never do any high-intensity work. Then the accelerations happen in races and they are out the back.

As others have said, this is based on my personal experience, observation, book learning, and working with various coaches. However, I am not a seasoned coach and so may not have as broad a view. A good coach can be invaluable, BTW. They increase your fitness and do it efficiently so you have more time to spend, um, writing on the forum.

[Tandem Rider]

We are all individuals and respond differently to training. Shovel and I have discussed our training here before, we have both be successful at the national level, but our paths are very different.

The advent of powermeters makes it a lot easier to measure response to training, but it's not the only way.

Keeping a training diary is essential to making it all work, but you have to be honest in it. We all have to find our own path.

[shovelhd]

We are all individuals and respond differently to training. Shovel and I have discussed our training here before, we have both be successful at the national level, but our paths are very different.

The advent of powermeters makes it a lot easier to measure response to training, but it's not the only way.

Keeping a training diary is essential to making it all work, but you have to be honest in it. We all have to find our own path.

Well said. The differentiator is genetics. I was given a lean lanky build which, on the surface, would make me a killer road racer. But I am not. I was a criterium racer, competing against guys 30-50 pounds heavier than me and 200-500 more 1m watts than me, yet I beat them. There is no prescription. No universal plan that works for everyone. However there are guidelines that one can choose to observe or ignore. Your choice.

[Splash]

Thanks Gents.

The thread below refers to rebuilding your power foundation:

http://bikeraceinfo.com/training-fitness/power-foundation.html

In particular, it refers to Dr. Coggan's Power Level Chart and his recommendations to employ tempo (76-90% FTP) for time restricted base training - instead of endurance (56-75% FTP).

I also read elsewhere that TSS is fairly important in knowing what levels of stress (hence load) you are placing on your body to help with effective base training....


Your thoughts on above?

What are some examples of implementing TSS as part of choosing which workouts for base training?

Kgreene10 - I am 200lbs. What methods do you suggest to build lots of strength and which parts of the body?





Splash

[baker]

Those Coggan workouts look hard as hell. I would be reluctant to just jump right into doing those. The TrainerRoad plans at least try to ease you into it. They also provide more guidance along the way.

TSS is central to the way TrainerRoad has set up its plans. For one thing, this is because it's an internet based system with no personalized interaction. Short term and long term stress are just quantitative approximations to your overall fitness, but they are perhaps the best you can do when power numbers are all you have to go by. A personal coach can integrate subjective feedback, resting heart rate, and a whole lot more - but it will cost more than $12 / month!

Although TSS is just an approximation, it's a strong and meaningful constraint that coaches use. If your long term stress isn't going up over time, and if your peaks don't correspond to peaks of form (= long term stress - short term stress) you should probably find a new coach.

If you have Strava premium, go to Training > Fitness & Freshness. The numbers should at least roughly correspond to your perceived fitness, fatigue and form.

Disclaimer: I am not a coach. This is just what I've figured out from reading and discussing this stuff a lot.

[shovelhd]

TSS is a very general way at looking at stress in a workout. You can have two completely different workouts, one a 2 hour group ride, and the other a one hour race, end up with the same TSS number. TSS is best used at a macro level, i.e. planning your workouts for the week/month. TSS feeds TSB and CTL, which give you an idea of long term stress over time. This is what you watch if you are peaking for an event, as the line between peak fitness and overtrained can be a razor's edge.

Disclaimer: I am not a coach. Anyone can choose to disregard anything I say.

[shovelhd]

Kgreene10 - I am 200lbs. What methods do you suggest to build lots of strength and which parts of the body?

Splash

I don't know what your 200 pounds looks like, but if you feel that you are overweight, I would focus on losing weight first before introducing short interval high intensity work. High endurance/sweet spot/tempo is excellent for losing weight. If you wanted to lose 20 pounds with diet and riding your bike, focusing on those kinds of workouts will help you lose the weight.

As a 58 year old retired racer, I have to go to the gym one a week or I start to lose strength. This is mainly because I am not training for racing, and I am old. Younger riders may not have to do this, but it can't hurt as long as you are smart about it. BTW my 45 minute gym workout is 80 TSS. I tracked it along with my bike workouts.

When I was training for racing, I did a good bit of on the bike strength work at the beginning of each build cycle. These are usually lower cadence, big gear workouts. 5 minute intervals in the 53-11 on a flat road, or 53-13 on the trainer. It worked wonders for me.

Disclaimer: I am not a coach. Anyone can choose to disregard anything I say.

[bikerider888]

Splash another misconception by many is that strength is a limiter in cycling. It is not, O2 transport is. At 200lbs the last thing you need is to put on more weight by lifting.

I will agree with the others that you should focus on losing weight and improving overall fitness. A steady diet of sweet spot will work wonders for that. You will see steady gains in body comp and likely some rapid improvements in your 185w FTP.

Good luck, keep us posted on how it goes. Maybe start a thread on the progress.

[Splash]

Thanks Gents.

I am 6'2" and want to aim for 176 lbs, so another 24lbs i will aim to lose in body weight.

Any further thoughts on Coggan's Power Level Chart and his recommendations to employ tempo (76-90% FTP) for time restricted base training?


Splash

[stephenmarklay]

I just did 6 weeks of sweet spot base on trainer road. It was nice in that I had only done really slow riding July and August so this bump in intensity was nice.

I dont’ think I will continue to do just SST however.

My mind keeps going back to the polarized research. The winter makes it really hard for me to dedicate the time for the long endurance stuff however.

There was some pretty good info on the VeloNews Podcast. One good one was “why aren’t you a pro.” Both interesting and humbling.

I think I will try and get in two short interval sessions with sprints and such each week, one SST or over under style workout every 10days and then get as much zone 2 as I can.

I seem to respond pretty well to interval work but I get burned out pretty quick on them. On the other hand I like the Phil Maffetone endurance idea which is getting faster at a lower HR to push your endurance speed.

The idea is to push my endurance and FTP higher toward my max power so I can maintain I higher speed longer without as much stress. Well that is my current plan after listening to the VeloNews Podcast.

[Splash]

Well done.

What would your new training regime look like to push your endurance and FTP higher towards your max power so you can maintain a higher speed longer without as much stress?


Splash

[stephenmarklay]

Well done.

What would your new training regime look like to push your endurance and FTP higher towards your max power so you can maintain a higher speed longer without as much stress?


Splash

Hey Splash, I actually did, after a slight break, continue with some more sweet spot base.

I do a lot of physical stuff like lifting weights and martial arts and in reality for now doing less biking volume is what makes sense for me. I don’t think that SSB is the end all be all. However, it seems reasonably productive for this early season given time constraints. However, if I get an opportunity to go out and ride some distance I would do that instead on any given day. I did that Saturday.

I do think that polarizing training is a good way to go provided there is enough time to just ride. Although, I think intervals and riding slower with what you can do is still worthwhile.

I think to be all you can be you need to ride and ride and ride. Not all without a purpose but some perhaps.

For me, long rides over time build my durability to and I get faster with less effort. When I do that I can ride for 4+ hours without even so much as a drink of water and not feel bad at the end. It does not make me really fast however. But layering in some sprints and intervals, r&r on top of that “base” does. I will never be really fast but fast enough to have fun and be competitive with other riders rather than feel like a stuffed ham on a bike :)

[gmcampy]

Hey Splash, I actually did, after a slight break, continue with some more sweet spot base.

I do a lot of physical stuff like lifting weights and martial arts and in reality for now doing less biking volume is what makes sense for me. I don’t think that SSB is the end all be all. However, it seems reasonably productive for this early season given time constraints. However, if I get an opportunity to go out and ride some distance I would do that instead on any given day. I did that Saturday.

I do think that polarizing training is a good way to go provided there is enough time to just ride. Although, I think intervals and riding slower with what you can do is still worthwhile.

I think to be all you can be you need to ride and ride and ride. Not all without a purpose but some perhaps.

For me, long rides over time build my durability to and I get faster with less effort. When I do that I can ride for 4+ hours without even so much as a drink of water and not feel bad at the end. It does not make me really fast however. But layering in some sprints and intervals, r&r on top of that “base” does. I will never be really fast but fast enough to have fun and be competitive with other riders rather than feel like a stuffed ham on a bike :)

Try reading "fast after 50" The Author, Joe Friel, explains the life changes and benefits of stress training that intervals provide. Good read for the background if you like that kinda stuff. Also has recommended training regimes, I use Trainer Road to meet those goals :)

[Splash]

gmcampy - what workouts do you use on TR?


Splash