Loyalty to local your local shop versus the internet.

[Sandy]

I was an amazingly loyal customer to the shop where I bought my first Serotta. I bought everything there except nutrition bars ( owner never gave me a price when I requested it), tubes sometimes, cleats sometimes, and most cycling clothing as the shop has a limited offering.

I did all my service work at the shop. I bought all my tires at the shop even though I could buy the tires for about 50% less. I could buy parts for 25%-75% less, without even looking very hard. I never got a break on anything (other than bike club discount, which I had to ask for). When I told the owner that I was looking for another Serotta, the price given to me was the same price that a first time customer would receive. He actually gave me a price one week and raised it by 5% two weeks later. I ordered a Serotta jersey once that he was going to charge me double what it would have cost by purchasing it from Serotta. A winter overhaul cost me $500..... The shop did honor warranty work, but charged for almost every service done, even a very minor adjustment.

Anyway, I bought my new Serotta, built up, for about $1500 less than he would have sold it for. I received a great price. After purchsing the Serotta from the new shop and trying to be loyal to that shop, I got prices for tires and components which were probably 25%-50% more than what I paid when I bought the bike.

I finally gave up trying to totally support the local shops. I always thought that they teated me, especially the first shop, as if I was stupid (careful Kevan) and hadn't learned anything about bikes or pricing. I now buy almost all of my tires from critUSA, as I get excellent prices, great service, and the owner operates a small business. I bought my first components about 1 year ago through Performance, including a 12/27 Dura-Ace 10 cassette for $100 (after using a coupon), and Dura-Ace 10 chains for $27 (after using the coupon). The second shop charged me about $55 for a replacement chain, twice that from Performance. The local shops wanted $180 for the cassette, but would give a club 10 percent discount.

On Thursday, I ordered from Total Cycling for the very first time. I bought a pair of Shimano SH-215 shoes for about $113 (2005 modal) and 3 Vittoria Open Corsa EVO-CX tires for $33 each. The local shops are about $230 for the shoes (some will give a 10 % discount). My first shop charges $49 for the tires after the discount. The second shop told me that they couldn't get the tires at a decent price, although they got them for my initial bike purchase at a very fair price. I paid Total Cycling $28 for delivery. The order from Total Cycing was given Thursday afternoon. I received the merchandise, delivered to my door, today- Sunday. That is 3 day service. What local shop would or could do that?

I bought my Serotta CSi in 1998, and tryed so hard to be a loyal customer, and have no problem in paying more for products up to 25% or more, but I now find it difficult to do much business with them as they don't seem to understand how to do business with a somewhat sophisticated customer who is not a newbie to cycling.

Local shops have product to test and to see. That is where I would really like to do all my business, but I am finding that difficult to do relative to how I perceive them doing business. I owned a small business and understand the problems facing them. Any business owner can use whatever business model that he or she desires, but it has become increasingly difficult for me to mesh my ideas of service, pricing, and loyalty to the practices of the local shops.


Sandy

[rnhood]

I tend to agree with you. Especially after last week when my local Serotta dealer charged me 10% over retail for a pair of tires. I almost wish I had not looked up the price when I got home on the vendor's website. The tires are great but, I am a bit disappointed in the transaction. Oh well...

I believe the bustling bike business is such that the owners don't find it necessary to be competitive with other avenues. Not that they should be competetitive in every case but, I do expect pricing somewhere between discount outlets and, the products retail. I collect pocket knives and, we have two local dealers here both of which give me a reasonable discount on everything that I purchase. As well, they both go out of their way to bring a knife in without obligation on my part for me to evaluate. I expect similar treatment from a bike dealer.

This weekend I visited a relatively new local bike shop and, was very pleased with it. I had a lengthy converstion with the owner and, he listened to my preferences and expectations and, delivered the response that I was hoping to hear. I will be giving this dealer my business and, we will see how things go. I do prefer the local route but, when you buy tires, parts and other stuff fairly regularly it only makes sense that you get some type treatment which makes you feel appreciated and valued. If you don't feel that appreciation then it's time to move on. I do recommend talking to other shops in your area though. Its really nice to have a local dealer especially when one is hardly even semi-competent on bike matters like me.

[Smiley]

Total Cycling tries really hard to earn the business of the US consumer. Its a Global economy anymore. NAFTA baby :banana:

[mike p]

I feel for you guys who don't have decent local shops. I live just outside Ithaca NY and we've got a couple great bike shops. Swan cycles aka Glenn Swan is our local guru and hero. He has great prices (usually better than mail order) and is always willing to help. Cycling wouldn't be near what it is in upstate without glenn. Also Action sports in cortland run by Matt Belknap who trained under Glenn, both great guys.

Mike

[Bill Bove]

I'm sure a lawyer will argue this (for a fee) but many of the component makers will not warranty a part bought from outside the local distibution network (greymarket). Mavic comes to mind, and take a look inside your new Conti GP4K's, there's a serial #. Conti's USA distributer will not warranty that tire if it fails.
That being said, I do not expect my customers to make all of their purchases with me, only that they give me a chance to compete. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes not. I do make EVERY effort to show my customers that I appreciate their business.

[93legendti]

I feel for you guys who don't have decent local shops. I live just outside Ithaca NY and we've got a couple great bike shops. Swan cycles aka Glenn Swan is our local guru and hero. He has great prices (usually better than mail order) and is always willing to help. Cycling wouldn't be near what it is in upstate without glenn. Also Action sports in cortland run by Matt Belknap who trained under Glenn, both great guys.

Mike

My "local" (its 30 minutes away) Serotta dealer is a great store. I wish it was closer, but I only shop there after years of spreading it around the local stores. The entre staff is friendly and knowledgable and every customer I have met there has been friendly. I always buy something when I am in there, cuz I am convinced they do not charge enough for labor.

[Bruce K]

The 2 LBS's that I deal with generally price match internet sites like Excel Sports or Performance, even some sale stuff.

After that I sometimes try phone order with Bill Bove's shop.

My last choice is internet sales.

I will buy locally as long as sales tax plus the price is close to internet or mail order plus shipping. If won't pay large differences, especially for tires.

On a Saturday afternoon, when you need a last minute item, what will you do if there's no LBS's left?

BK

[djg]

five hundred bucks for an overhaul? Did they tune the bimmer too?

It's your money Sandy, you should be able to spend it or not as you like.

[Fixed]

bro $500 my bike didn't cost that much
cheers

[Sandy]

I'm sure a lawyer will argue this (for a fee) but many of the component makers will not warranty a part bought from outside the local distibution network (greymarket). Mavic comes to mind, and take a look inside your new Conti GP4K's, there's a serial #. Conti's USA distributer will not warranty that tire if it fails.
That being said, I do not expect my customers to make all of their purchases with me, only that they give me a chance to compete. Sometimes I can beat them, sometimes not. I do make EVERY effort to show my customers that I appreciate their business.

I must say that my first local shop would normally fix minor items as I waited and that was very valuable to me. I guess what bothered me over the years, was that I was never offered a "good" deal on anything- For exmple- If the shop had older wheels and other shops were discounting the same wheels in order to move them as newer models were being offered, my shop would never offer them to me cheaper. Never.

Bill, I never expected or even wanted my shop to match or beat mail order or internet prices (at least come close on a totally built bike). All I ever wanted was a "fair" price, and I know that the local shop can not match a giant like Performance.


Sandy

[Sandy]

five hundred bucks for an overhaul? Did they tune the bimmer too?

It's your money Sandy, you should be able to spend it or not as you like.

Actually, it was pretty cheap. I forgot to tell you that $25 was for the bike overhaul, and $475 was for my overhaul! :) :)


Feeling like 25 years old,


:banana: Serotta Sandy :banana:

[SoCalSteve]

I must say that my first local shop would normally fixed minor items as I waited and that was very valuable to me. I guess what bothered me over the years, was that I was never offered a "good" deal on anything- For exmple- If the shop had older wheels and other shops were discounting the same wheels in order to move them as newer models were being offered, my shop would never offer them to me cheaper. Never.

Bill, I never expected or even wanted my shop to match or beat mail order or internet prices (at least come close on a totally built bike). All I ever wanted was a "fair" price, and I know that the local shop can not match a giant like Performance.


Sandy

Thats not asking too much. You have every right to go elsewhere (anywhere in the world) and spend your hard earned money where you choose to, especially if you are feeling ripped off.

Oh, ebay comes to mind as a great place to buy gear, both new and used. I do it all the time.

Steve

[Sandy]

bro $500 my bike didn't cost that much
cheers

Maybe so. But mine was attached to a 20 bedroom mansion with a indoor pool and a velodrome. I got quite a deal. :)


:banana: Slick Sandy :banana:

[FierteTi52]

I always try to support my LBS, but with Ebay and Internet shopping it's getting hard to do. I do all my own wrenching, so I never the LBS for labor. When I bought my Fierte Ti, I bought the frame only and used a D/A group off a Cannodale CAAD 6 I had. My Ottrott deal was including the build kit which he matched CC price and I did the build up. The parts for my Kirk were from various specials, closeouts, 20% off coupons, and free shipping from Nashbar. CC, Ebay, and Serotta classifieds. I still make it a point to buy smaller items from the LBS, cables, chains, tubes, bar tape, clothing, etc. As along time customer, I'm always treated fair and never pay the sticker price on anything. Most of my pricing is very close to mail order and I get to hang out at the coolest shop in town. Of course I don't expect him to compete with Arnie Nashbar and 20% off for D/A 10spd parts. As mentioned before, we all need to support our LBS, we all need them to be there for us.
Jeff

[dave thompson]

Sandy: I've found that often you have to ask for a good price, otherwise the LBS may feel that you are willing to pay what ever he's going to charge you. Of course there are many ways to 'ask' for a more favorable price.

I base my feeling towards an LBS by how appreciative they are of me as a customer, the same way I treated my customers when I was in the motorcycle business. I didn't give away the store, but full retail wasn't always charged either. Unfortunately the 'local' Serotta dealer here is not my Serotta dealer, I have to travel 360 miles to see him. Luckily, or perhaps more by design, my Serotta has never needed any sort of warranty or other work that would require me returning to the selling dealer.


Most businesses, bike shops as well as shoe stores, have a standard 'margin of profit' they want to work with. That 'margin of profit is applied to the prices charged them on the invoices they get from their suppliers. Sometimes the 'MSRP' of an item has less 'margin of profit' than the business normally applies to the items they sell and when the parts guy (or whoever) checks in the items and prices them puts a price higher than the MSRP. And the public can think they're being ripped off.

Speaking of 'Margin of Profit', how much do you think is applied to, say, shoes or mattresses? Did you ever wonder why a shoe store or mattress store can have a 50% off sale (sometimes seemingly forever) and still stay in business?

[Sandy]

I was in the wholesale meat business. My gross markup was not based upon what I wanted, but what my competition would allow. My gross markup was never as high as 15%.


Sandy

[yeehawfactor]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that excluding giant hams, the bike business differs in nature from the meat business...................

[Sandy]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that excluding giant hams, the bike business differs in nature from the meat business...................

Different in some ways and the same in some ways.


:) Sirloin Steak Sandy :)

[yeehawfactor]

Different in some ways and the same in some ways.


:) Sirloin Steak Sandy :)
i stand by my giant ham claim!

[Sandy]

i stand by my giant ham claim!

Bicycle shops sell Giants. Meat companies sell hams.


Ham Salad Sandy

[Avispa]

Local shops have product to test and to see. That is where I would really like to do all my business, but I am finding that difficult to do relative to how I perceive them doing business. I owned a small business and understand the problems facing them. Any business owner can use whatever business model that he or she desires, but it has become increasingly difficult for me to mesh my ideas of service, pricing, and loyalty to the practices of the local shops.

Sandy,

My local shop, by choice not by location, is one hour away! Why? Because I think that shops near my house are way too impredictable. There is just too much staff turn over.... One day there is a great sales guy, the next day he is gone. A good mechanic one day, the following week no more.

As far as princing goes, one of the largest shops in town [as far as inventory goes] does not discount one penny to anyone, even if you are a repeat customer. Perhaps that is why they are so big! I understand, as you say, they can dictate their business model. But I also believe that a repeat customer is the best advertisement any business could afford. Therefore some kind of reciprocity must exist. But I think most LBSs take this for granted. But not most shops out of town. For instance, I have purchased most of my current bikes at WRC and they have always given me a good price on most everything. Not so much on the frames, as I think Serotta does not like shops to discount their frames too much. But they have surely helped a lot!

So, I only go to local shops [the ones by my house] when its absolutelly necessary I get something the same day; as when I need a CO2 refil, a tube, etc. The rest of my business goes to the far away shop, to other shops out of town or on the Internet [eBay, Total Cycling, Excel]. By the way, the shop that I go 60 min. from home, understands that I travel far to see them and they always have offered me great [or better] prices than mail order and their service has always been top notch!

Now Sandy, next time you are willing to pay $500 for a "winter overhaul", do me a favor. Send me your bike, I will clean it for free. I must see that it will be nice and neat before I advertise it on eBay....

[bigbill]

I always relied on the team/club discount to justify the LBS. When I was living in Va Beach, I rode for a team that had a small shop for a sponsor. After much complaining, the shop agreed to meet the price in an Excel catalog if we wanted something ordered. As a point of reference, a centaur cassette was $160 in the shop. I mostly trained with a team from another shop and would get their discount when I shopped there. It was around 25 percent. Even the shop down the street would give me a 20% discount, but not the one who's name appeared on my jersey. That didn't last. I didn't want to be catered to, just give me a break on my parts. Out here in Hawaii, I ride for a team that is shop sponsored and they are very good to us. The shop is a specialized dealer and they pretty much control the retail markup. The downside is that I live on an island and on more than one occasion, I have had to make the rounds of 4-5 shops to find the right chain or tire. If it isn't in stock, it will take a week.

[bironi]

Sandy,

You have definitely given your local lbs the benefit of doubt. You are right to move on to sources that provide service at a much reduced price. Some of us are fortunate to have a shop with knowledgeable employees, and prices that keep us coming back. I hope you find one. I prefer the face to face interplay.

BTW, thanks for the critusa recommendation. He has been good to me also.

Byron

[stevep]

sandy, you have to explain the $500 tune up. it included a record cassette and chain, new cables, tires and brake pads right?

cant be labor unless leonardo devinci dod it but i hear hes making movies now instead of inventing.

[William]

I'm only citing my own experience here, but I've found that if you show that you're educated in parts and pricing, they tend not to try and gouge you. Before I ever buy anything I always search for information on the product and pricing from many different sources so that I know whether they are in the ballpark, cutting me a deal, or trying to pick my pocket. Once you know that, you always have the option of letting them know what you think (start out tactfully...then go downhill if you need to) by trying to negotiate a price if you know they are high, decide what you want to do if they are in the ballpark, or snatch it up if they are giving you a deal.

I have two shops in my vicinity. One a boutique type shop, the other an old racer's hole in the wall (and I mean that affectionately). The boutique is much closer to me but their prices are freaking outrageous. Tubes, wheels, tires, cycling clothing, you name it. The other is about a 30 min drive and their prices are quite reasonable, help is much better, and turnaround is very much faster. There have been a few times that I thought their prices were high on some pre owned stuff, but I just passed on it and looked else where. Other times they have given me great deals, great deals for my friends (eh Beungood & Neil), and they shoot me right in if I need work done.

Do your best to find a shop that you like, support them by buying some things, stop by and shoot the ***** some times, heck, buy them some coffee sometime for no reason what so ever...basically, build a rapport with them. I genuinely like these guys. I'll support them when I can, but if I feel a price is too high and they can't move on the price, I will check other sources. They do what they have to do, I do what I need to do.

Bottom line, be an edumacated ;) consumer.


William

[Ahneida Ride]

The closet shop to me makes rude insulting remarks if you do not fit its
definition of a cyclist.

To me ....
" Hey ... that's a $3000 frame you are looking at! "
Or to a friend ...
" You don't need gloves, You don't look like a cyclist "

So I travel up to Vermont. (Mtn. Cycology) To a shop run by the owner,
and a dedicated cyclist. Mtn Cycology is a shop, not a typical "retail" store.

I purchase most of my equipment there. He is respectful of
price and he does his best to keep my bike in pristine condition.
What is not in stock, he can order. Some Vintage parts excluded.

If I encounter a problem, I become his #1 priority.
Rick once drove in from home after hours to install a TA crank for me.
Try that at your ordinary shop. ;)

[MartyE]

With the exception of vintage parts I try to support my LBS.
Yes I know I could have bought that pair of Conti Sprinters for $20 less
at Total Cycling, CritUSA or La Bicycletta but if I do I have no right to
whinge and moan when the LBS goes bellly up.
I'm fortunate in that my LBS (Richardson Bike Mart) will try to give
discounts to repeat customers. One conversation I overheard asked a
customer if he were a member of ANY bike club, TXBRA, student, anything that
could "legitimately" get him a discount. They found a way to make it work, and
I appreciate that.
I don't expect them to match the big online retaillers, but I've found that
alot of the time they will get close, and that's good enough for me.

Marty

[saab2000]

Good service/prices at bike shops seems to very hard to find. But if you find someone who is really knowledgeable they can be priceless.

But it is with some reluctance that I buy anything at the LBS. When I built up my CIII this spring I had to get a new crank. I bought a new Record aluminum crank. The guy told me that QBP is selling mostly carbon and knew that the new one was on the way, so the aluminum ones would be cheap. So I ordered one. The price he quoted me when it came in was eye-watering. I paid it, no questions asked, because he is a friend and they have helped me in other ways. But the price was insulting. Sometimes I think shops live in a vacuum and are clueless as to the power of online shopping.

I could have easily saved $100 on the crankset alone buying it on eBay new.

Anyway, it's hit or miss with most LBSs. I find that the overwhelming majority of bike shops have employees who are incompetent, patronizing and arrogant. If you ask a question about something they don't really know the answer, or just pull out the directions from the box and read from there.

I do 99.9% of all my own wrenching and don't really need the LBS much. But when I faced the head tube of my CIII down 1 CM I was sure glad they were there. But the guy I dealt with is one of the few truly competent mechanics I know and I paid him on the side for what we did together before the shop even opened. It was a transaction which for the owner of the shop never happened. I know all of them at that shop.

I really want to buy from them, but the prices they quote sometimes are a joke. They NEED TO KNOW that their competition is selling not for a bit less, but rather for a lot less online.

[Chad Engle]

Great thread. My lbs was awesome, service was great and I always received a discount off of the marked retail price without asking. I did my best to support them by purchasing my CDA, a GF sugar and both of my kids bikes over a four year period. Free lifetime wheel truing and adjustments. Tune ups were reasonably priced. They closed about a month ago, bummer.

I don't think a shop can match internet prices with the overhead of a store front, but give them a chance to try before going online.

[saab2000]

I certainly don't mind paying extra if the service is really good. But too often it is a joke.

Wannabe racer kids who are arrogant are not my cuppatea when looking for something.

My favorite story occured about 15 or so years ago. A friend of mine ordered some brake levers from a shop in Minneapolis which no longer exists. They would order them right away. No biggie, we couldn't come back for a week or so anyway. So we went in 10 days later or so. No brake levers. The shop was waiting until it had the minimum order for their supplier. And they thought that actually ordering and delivering something in a timely manner was just too much to ask for. End of order.

And mail order existed then too, but it was mostly phone-in orders. We ordered over the phone and the levers show up 48 hours later for less money.

[cydewaze]

Wow, I'm pretty lucky I guess.

Local shop is around a mile away. Serotta dealer. Gives fairly good prices, and usually cuts me a 10% discount because I do a lot of business there. He also spends countless hours of labor on me, from measuring my bikes to help me with my fit, to doing small adjustments for free (I do most of my own work, but the bike has been on his stand before, at no charge).

I'm buying more and more stuff from him because of the 10% and because it's just easier to swing by (it's next to our grocery store) and pick up something. The exception is when it's something he does not normally stock and would have to order, and the price would be ridiculously higher than I'd pay on the net.

I figure I've bought 2 bikes from him and countless accessories. I'll probably buy another bike from him eventually. A tire here and there ordered on the net isn't going to hurt. It's a great shop and he's usually swamped with business.

[Serpico]

shoes were $299.00 at shop and $299.00 from competitivecyclist.com, buy from shop

pedals were $235.00 at shop, $180.00 at bikepartsusa.com, buy from the internet

I always prefer to buy from the shop, except when the price makes me feel like I'm getting ganked--I'll pay a bit more for stuff from the shop, but not a lot

[67-59]

The owner of my lbs is a great guy, and has good wrenching skills. Whenever I take my bike in for needed service, I always call ahead to make sure he's there and available to do the job, and he always seems to be able to squeeze me in. Service prices always seem too low to me. As for parts, once he recognized me as a repeat customer, he has always offered (without me asking) a discount off retail. Usually isn't quite as low as I could get at Excel or the other online outlets, but I'm willing to pay a premium for the service. And I have never had to wait for him to generate a "minimum order" to place a parts order. When I request something that isn't in stock, he usually has it in the shop within 2 or 3 business days.

The only downside is that I live in a relatively small town, so the only models on the floor are the big-name, big-production bikes (think Trek, Specialized, etc). He might be able to work something out with Serotta, Parlee or whomever when the day comes that I decide to get one, but in my mind, that might not be as good as working with someone who really knows those bikes. And of course I don't have the option of just ogling the latest model on the showroom floor, or taking one out for a test ride.

[Fat Robert]

I'm a slut

I used to get a discount at the shop where I worked in 2003, then had a semi-public spat with the dildo who was the manager...he quit, but the ol discount never returned. they are great, but they're 30 minutes away. do I want to drive an hour to go to a bike shop?

the local guy is nice to me, I'm nice to him. he'll work on my bikes for free because I know who gianbattista baronchelli is and how he lost the 1980 worlds.

I'll slut out to the local guy, I slut out to the shop in charlotte...I'll slut out to the internet...whatever is in my interest....

[Ozz]

I certainly don't mind paying extra if the service is really good. But too often it is a joke. .

Absolutely.

A friend of mine ordered some brake levers from a shop in Minneapolis which no longer exists. They would order them right away. No biggie, we couldn't come back for a week or so anyway. So we went in 10 days later or so. No brake levers. The shop was waiting until it had the minimum order for their supplier. And they thought that actually ordering and delivering something in a timely manner was just too much to ask for. End of order.

I have a similar story going on right now, trying to get Dirtdigger's old Legend on the road.

I ordered most the parts online, but figured I would order the BB, rear derailleur and brakes thru the shop where I want it built. All the other parts are campy record, but I wanted a Phil Wood BB, Tiso RD, and Zero Gravity brakes. I dropped the bike off with all my parts back in February. The BB came in right away - no problem. The shop couldn't get hold of anyone at the Tiso distributer - wouldn't answer phone calls or emails....weird. Oh well I figure, the mechanic at the shop hadn't worked with Tiso parts before, and really likes the campy record stuff. "OK" I say, order the Record RD. I've seen them online for $270 or so, and I figure I'll pay around $300 at the shop. Try $350 - GULP. Whatever...you would think that would be the "installed" price at least...I write the check anyway. Gotta support the LBS...right?

Now comes the fun ( :crap: ) part - the Zero Gravity brakes. Unfortunately, I dropped off the bike just after "Bicycling" featured the Zero G's in and ad...err..."article". I figured the normal 10 week wait might be a little longer.

Well, here I am 15 weeks later and still waiting....the shop actually talked to Zero G three or four weeks ago about my order. They said it would ship "soon". Yeah, right....still waiting.

A buddy has a set of old campy calipers he is going to loan me until the Zero G's come in. I can't wait to see what the price is going to be. ;)

I'm not saying any of this is the shop's fault, as I don't think the manufacturer's give the small shops the attention they do their volume sellers. But, the shops need to at least have good communication with the supplier, so they can give the customer reasonable expectations. Heck, I could have bought the darn brakes online months ago and been riding my new bike.

I guess this is what loyalty gets you.

[Russell]

College Park Bikes has always treated me well. Still, Totalcycling rocks.

[shaq-d]

you have to shop to find a cool LBS. here in toronto there are tons of bike shops. my local ones charged me 50cents for end caps, per end cap. that was ridiculous. downtown LBS (toronto's "urbane cyclist" LBS rocks!) gave me 5 for free. the stories go on and on.

i don't give shops the benefit of the doubt. my time and money --and respect -- is worth something to me, and the high competition in toronto/internet/world lets me act accordingly.

sd

[Sandy]

Wow, I'm pretty lucky I guess.

Local shop is around a mile away. Serotta dealer. Gives fairly good prices, and usually cuts me a 10% discount because I do a lot of business there. He also spends countless hours of labor on me, from measuring my bikes to help me with my fit, to doing small adjustments for free (I do most of my own work, but the bike has been on his stand before, at no charge).

I'm buying more and more stuff from him because of the 10% and because it's just easier to swing by (it's next to our grocery store) and pick up something. The exception is when it's something he does not normally stock and would have to order, and the price would be ridiculously higher than I'd pay on the net.

I figure I've bought 2 bikes from him and countless accessories. I'll probably buy another bike from him eventually. A tire here and there ordered on the net isn't going to hurt. It's a great shop and he's usually swamped with business.

After buying a $4,000 bike (from your shop) plus tires, plus giving all my repair service to the shop, plus,....., I noticed a first time customer who bought a helmet and a couple of other little items from the owner. The new customer asked if the shop would give a club discount which the owner immediately gave. I am in the same club. I asked the owner why I was not receiving the same discount and he said all that I had to do was ask. I should have to ask?

The shop has improved dramatically its customer relations/communications, and does try harder with me, which I appreciate. I have tried to give the shop some business. I told the owner that I would not speak poorly of his shop and I have not done such. I even sent a few people his way that live somewhere close to his shop. The small retail bike business is very difficult and I always want small businesses to flourish. Perhaps I expect too much from a shop. Your shop has a great inventory, an owner with wonderful knowledge, and experience. He does seem to care about his customers, I think. I guess that I might have been overly critical, but certain occurrences didn't seem to make good business/customer sense.

My initial post was not meant as a criticism of your local shop, but simply a statement about what there is out there on the internet, and the local shops better give superior service and reasonable pricing, because the competition is there.

I would like to buy 3 Continental tires and would buy them from your shop today if the price was reasonable for the tires. Certainly, I can buy them cheaper than from your shop, but the cheapest price is NOT my goal, but one that is reasonable to me. I want to support the local guy. I really do.


Sandy





Sandy

[Fixed]

bro the older I get tthe more i stay out of bike shops .
you can hear a lot of junk in a bike shop i.m.h.o.
cheers

[cydewaze]

Sorry you had a bad experience there. They've always done pretty well by me, although I haven't lived here long, so I have no idea how they were in the past.

Hopefully they will improve/have improved and you'll have a better experience there.

[obtuse]

sandy-

the other guy got the "discount" because he asked for it. bike shops are typically run by small petty bougeois business owners who are hustling to make ends meet and making up for greasing the squeeky wheels by making a few extra cents on the folks who don't complain about price.

ask for the discount if you feel entitled to it. hell, ask for the price match if you feel entitled to it. the worst thing that guy can do is say no....but he's not running a charity and isn't in business to give money and profit away that he doesn't have to.

obtuse

[Ginger]

Yeah, you should have to ask. If the discount was for everyone, they'd just have all their prices lower, yes?

And, as the discount is a value to a club, if the shop gave everyone a discount who didn't belong to said clubs, what would it be worth to the club to get a discount at the shop? There would be no value added for the club to promote the shop to its members.

That said, I walk in to an LBS because they're there, they have my part, and I didn't know in advance that I needed it. So I may ask for my discount, sometimes they know me well enough to give it to me without my asking. And, some shops who see me often (I'm cheap, but impatient...doesn't bode well for the internet shopping thing) who I don't ask the discount of, will toss in something at a huge discount or free if they're feeling like it.

Bike shops are in the business to make money. Those who aren't in the business to make money are soon out of business.

[goonster]

you can hear a lot of junk in a bike shop

That is the truth.

Sometimes this is because it's what the customer wants or expects to hear and sometimes it's because the shopdude doesn't know better.

Actually said to an actual customer in an actual bike shop:

"Radial lacing is better because it makes the wheel stiffer side to side" :butt:

I shop there occasionally if I need something right away (chain, rain cape, bar tape) and the shops I favor are either too far away or closed.

[Sandy]

Yeah, you should have to ask. If the discount was for everyone, they'd just have all their prices lower, yes?

And, as the discount is a value to a club, if the shop gave everyone a discount who didn't belong to said clubs, what would it be worth to the club to get a discount at the shop? There would be no value added for the club to promote the shop to its members.

That said, I walk in to an LBS because they're there, they have my part, and I didn't know in advance that I needed it. So I may ask for my discount, sometimes they know me well enough to give it to me without my asking. And, some shops who see me often (I'm cheap, but impatient...doesn't bode well for the internet shopping thing) who I don't ask the discount of, will toss in something at a huge discount or free if they're feeling like it.

Bike shops are in the business to make money. Those who aren't in the business to make money are soon out of business.

So let me understand what you are saying- At the time that the shop owner gave the new customer a discount on about $75-$100 of product, I had already spent maybe $7,500 at the shop, and I should have to ask for a discount? Any club member could get a discount on a pair of socks as a first purchase if the owner was informed about said membership, but a loyal $7,500 customer should pay full retail because he neglected to ask? You have to be kidding.

I belong to the cycling club, but so what? My $7500 (much more now) doesn't deserve a discount but the new customer's $75-$100 does?

I just don't understand your logic at all, and normally I do.



Sandy

[cydewaze]

I agree that if you are a member of the club the owner should at least recognize you and give you a discount if you're entitled to one.

I used to be really into cars, and I would always go to this one shop to get my car mods. Over time, a strange thing happened, and it caused me to coin the phrase, "familiarity breeds indifference". Basically what was happening was that the shop owner was so used to seeing me, and so used to me buying stuff, that when he was busy he felt he could "save me for last". i.e. help everyone else, including the people who strolled in after I had been sitting there for 30 minutes, before asking me if I needed anything.

I started to get the feeling that I was being taken for granted, and that bothered me. A few times I'd wave to get his attention, and I'd be told to "hang on a sec". I know it's not the same thing as you're experiencing, but it's a similar feeling.

[pdxmech13]

Sandy
obviously this is bothering you and I think that the shop should know. I would guess it's not on purpose but just plan stupid negligence on their end. I don't care what the feed back is from my customers good or bad as long as there is something that they are telling me. Any self respecting business owner should care what you the customer has to say. Your opinion counts and don't forget that. Be pleasant about as I know you would and feel out the situation. When its all said and done you'll know if you want to continue doing business with them or not.

[Ozz]

Sandy
.... I don't care what the feed back is from my customers good or bad as long as there is something that they are telling me....
Good advice.

I forget what the exact statistic is, but something like 80% of customers don't take the time to complain about bad service. They just take their business elsewhere. The owner should appreciate your feedback if he wants to stay in business.

And frankly, you should have to ask for the discount once. If he knows you, and knows you're in the club, he shouldn't have to ask again. If you end up with a newbie salesperson, it is OK to point out that you should get the discount.

[davids]

I've found that it isnt enough to find a good bike store. You have to find a good staffperson. The store where I spend most of my money has a superb reputation, but not everyone who works there merits it. Ditto for the other store I've dropped a lot of cash at...

I go to the people I know will steer me right. That's worth the extra money. And when it comes to designing, buying and building a bike, I will only go to people I trust. And I will pay them for their time and attention.

But as far as the commodities (tires, bibshorts, gloves...) I will do my own research for the best product and price.

[Ginger]

Remember Sandy, I'm not local to your area. Unlike some here, I don't know the shop you're referring to, so I'm not speaking of them directly.

In part Sandy, you're dealing with two different entities and two different business models and wondering why they aren't pricing things the same. Brick and mortar vs. internet/phone. This is a dead horse that doesn't need to be beat any more.

In another part, you're wondering why some people get a club discount (and keep in mind, you heard the guy...he HAD to ask for it...but he remembered to, so he got the discount) and others don't. Groups ask shops for discounts, shops give discounts, and the groups advertise their discount to group members. In this way a shop markets to a special interest group that specifically buys their products.
Of course you have to ask for the discount. Do you remember your shop owners birthday? The shop anniversary? Shops should have tons of customers, should they remember the personal lives of every customer? They don't know who is in a club and who has let their membership lapse. It is nice if they do. But not required. It's your job to tell them, not their job to know.

In a third part, you're wondering why the business you're doing business with isn't treating you the way you expect to be treated because of the money you spent there. This is something I was enlightened about a bit ago: Is 7500 several years ago really that much comparitive to the total amount of goods the shop sells yearly? Should they treat you extra special since you have already demonstrated that you go elsewhere for large ticket items??
What is the gross revenue in that shop? Are they're pulling down 250,000 or a million a year gross? Do they have, and keep good mechanics and sales people? How big of a deal is it for them to give you discounts? Other than money, do they treat you well?

That is what I base my shop selection on. Do they treat customers with respect when they walk through the door? Doesn't matter if it's me, or some kid with a 20" huffy. They don't need to give me price breaks (although I appreciate it when they do) they don't need to be "professional," that's too much to ask for the pay, but they need to treat people like human beings. (and the customers need to treat bike shop employees like humans too.)

End rant...if that's what that was. Feel free to disagree. I'm good with that. Did that help make my first post clearer Sandy?

Ginger


Oh...and I agree that you have to tell your shop people what's working and what isn't. Sometimes they get rightfully testy because you only have half the story, but sometimes both you and the shop learn something about dealing with shops and customers.

[obtuse]

I've found that it isnt enough to find a good bike store. You have to find a good staffperson. The store where I spend most of my money has a superb reputation, but not everyone who works there merits it. Ditto for the other store I've dropped a lot of cash at...

I go to the people I know will steer me right. That's worth the extra money. And when it comes to designing, buying and building a bike, I will only go to people I trust. And I will pay them for their time and attention.

But as far as the commodities (tires, bibshorts, gloves...) I will do my own research for the best product and price.


what davids said. you're never just buying a bike; you're buying a relationship. sounds weird; but it's true.

obtuse

[davids]

what davids said. you're never just buying a bike; you're buying a relationship. sounds weird; but it's true.

obtuse
And this guy's on my shortlist, whatever he chooses to call himself.

[Roy E. Munson]

obtuse,

so we're in a relationship now? should i start bringing flowers instead of beer?

[dave thompson]

what davids said. you're never just buying a bike; you're buying a relationship. sounds weird; but it's true.

obtuse
Quite true. The rub is that when you do spend the money and the relationship doesn't develop, it's not good. The reason I don't patronize my 'local' Serotta dealer is just that; bike purchases and not a few dollars spent on other things didn't develop into a relationship. I was merely treated as a cash cow, and not terribly nicely at that. So I go elsewhere, to a new LBS where I'm appreciated for what I am, a customer. No large discounts but he will try to come close if I ask. Great service and mainly someone I can trust when they answer my questions. He's actually talked me out of buying a few things. :)

[obtuse]

obtuse,

so we're in a relationship now? should i start bringing flowers instead of beer?


yup. its called a threesome. we should look at some beautiful things andcry together sometime.

obtuse

[JasonF]

I was always an "avoid the LBS at all costs" type of guy having endured years of indifferent service at bike shops. On a whim three weeks ago, I bought a Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer from my LBS even though I could have saved a few bucks after shipping ordering it from the web.

After 3 rides, the darn thing starts to leak. I thought I could get at least a few years from the trainer before it died. Anyway, I took it right back without the box or receipt. Fortunately, the owner of the LBS was there and promptly offered to either refund my money or get me a new one. I took the money.

I'm sure Cycleops would have replaced the unit under warranty, or a web-based retailer would have refunded my money but what a huge hassle it would have been to box it up and ship it out.

It's little things like personal service that will keep me walking through the door. On the other hand, I have learned to wrench myself as it's incomprehensible that the same LBS will charge $15 to adjust a rear derailleur.

[Sandy]

Remember Sandy, I'm not local to your area. Unlike some here, I don't know the shop you're referring to, so I'm not speaking of them directly.

In part Sandy, you're dealing with two different entities and two different business models and wondering why they aren't pricing things the same. Brick and mortar vs. internet/phone. This is a dead horse that doesn't need to be beat any more.

In another part, you're wondering why some people get a club discount (and keep in mind, you heard the guy...he HAD to ask for it...but he remembered to, so he got the discount) and others don't. Groups ask shops for discounts, shops give discounts, and the groups advertise their discount to group members. In this way a shop markets to a special interest group that specifically buys their products.
Of course you have to ask for the discount. Do you remember your shop owners birthday? The shop anniversary? Shops should have tons of customers, should they remember the personal lives of every customer? They don't know who is in a club and who has let their membership lapse. It is nice if they do. But not required. It's your job to tell them, not their job to know.

In a third part, you're wondering why the business you're doing business with isn't treating you the way you expect to be treated because of the money you spent there. This is something I was enlightened about a bit ago: Is 7500 several years ago really that much comparitive to the total amount of goods the shop sells yearly? Should they treat you extra special since you have already demonstrated that you go elsewhere for large ticket items??
What is the gross revenue in that shop? Are they're pulling down 250,000 or a million a year gross? Do they have, and keep good mechanics and sales people? How big of a deal is it for them to give you discounts? Other than money, do they treat you well?

That is what I base my shop selection on. Do they treat customers with respect when they walk through the door? Doesn't matter if it's me, or some kid with a 20" huffy. They don't need to give me price breaks (although I appreciate it when they do) they don't need to be "professional," that's too much to ask for the pay, but they need to treat people like human beings. (and the customers need to treat bike shop employees like humans too.)

End rant...if that's what that was. Feel free to disagree. I'm good with that. Did that help make my first post clearer Sandy?

Ginger


Oh...and I agree that you have to tell your shop people what's working and what isn't. Sometimes they get rightfully testy because you only have half the story, but sometimes both you and the shop learn something about dealing with shops and customers.

Ginger,

1. My initial post was not intended as a criticism of a local LBS. I was just amazed at how efficient Total Cycling was in sending me shoes and tires at a superb price. It was so easy and so fast. The LBS must realize what is out there and how well some do their job.

2. You missed completely my attitude towards a local LBS and the internet. I NEVER used the internet in buying ANYTHING for many YEARS. I gave almost all of my business to the local LBS and knowingly paid higher prices and accepted that. I was a remarkably loyal customer. Did you miss that? I bought a few components - 2 chains and 1 cassette from Performance, the shoes and tires from Total Cycling, and tires form critUSA, but ONLY in the last year or so. I was not satisfied with my local LBS. I NEVER expected nor do I now expect ANY local LBS to match internet prices. I have NO IDEA how you could think that I wanted or expected to receive the same prices. Why did you say that?

3. It is ABSURD to me that a first time customer is given a discount on a $75-$100 purchase and a long term excellent customer is given none. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a club membership. It is just STUPID business not to do so. I should have to ask?? Treat the guys right who support you. My wholesale meat business was small, but I had years in which I did about $18,000,000 in sales. If ANY customer was a loyal customer I ALWAYS tried very hard to help out in pricing. To not do that is STUPID and NOT FAIR in my humble opinion. A weeksly customer of $500 is small relative to $18,000,000 but loyalty is important. Don't you see that??? I's not my job to let them know anything about my club membership if I am a loyal customer. It is their job to offer me a discount that they offer to almost anyone in the local club that simply asks.

3. I NEVER went elsewhere for large ticket item until recently, with the exception of my Ottrott, because the first shop's price was too high and the ownner changed the price to something higher. I told him that I was going to buy the bike elsewhere, period, no matter what new price he might giove me. If I paid more than his price, I would have done it. Does it make sense to you that my old dealer's price was $1500 more than a dealer which I had never bought anything from??

I don't understand the basis of your rant. Please read over what I said. I don't think that you understand what I said.

It is the responsibility of a good LBS to treat a loyal customer at least as well as a newbie off the street. How can you not see that?? I guess it is time for me to move onto another thread.


Sandy

[Roy E. Munson]

we should look at some beautiful things andcry together sometime

I cried last night...watching the last minute of the hockey game.

[Sandy]

I just ordered 4 Continental GP 4000 all black 700x25 tires from my old shop. I can buy them cheaper elsewhere, but that is not my goal. All I want is a fiar price, and I will support my local shop. They gave me a price. It seemed reasonable, so I bought them.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I just ordered 4 Continental GP 4000 all black 700x25 tires from my old shop. I can buy them cheaper elsewhere, but that is not my goal. All I want is a fiar price, and I will support my local shop. They gave me a price. It seemed reasonable, so I bought them.


Sandy

[abstruse]

maniliysh'tik iliysh'tek, sandy... lasudrut alo, nohasis meriolsas. "pathos" fasavanis 'tik lihoradiun magdalas'tek... lasdanit'tin... $$$$$$


:)

[Lunar Probe]

I just paid $7. and change for a small bottle of Tri-Flow Dry Lubricant. This leaves me wondering for exactly what purpose this lube is formulated.

[zap]

I just paid $7. and change for a small bottle of Tri-Flow Dry Lubricant. This leaves me wondering for exactly what purpose this lube is formulated.

Going 2 mph faster.

[Sandy]

Going 2 mph faster.

I have exactly $28 in my wallet. I think that $28 divided by $7 equals 4. Now if $7 buys one botttle of lubricant and that bottle enables you to go 2 mph faster, then my $28 will buy 4 bottles of lubricant and I will be able to go 8 mph faster. So where do I buy the lube?

Do you think they might sell some of that lube with a secret steroid mixed in??


:banana: Secret Steroid Serotta Sandy :banana:

[Grant McLean]

Ginger,


3. It is ABSURD to me that a first time customer is given a discount on a $75-$100 purchase and a long term excellent customer is given none. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a club membership. It is just STUPID business not to do so. I should have to ask?? Treat the guys right who support you. My wholesale meat business was small, but I had years in which I did about $18,000,000 in sales. If ANY customer was a loyal customer I ALWAYS tried very hard to help out in pricing. To not do that is STUPID and NOT FAIR in my humble opinion. A weeksly customer of $500 is small relative to $18,000,000 but loyalty is important. Don't you see that??? I's not my job to let them know anything about my club membership if I am a loyal customer. It is their job to offer me a discount that they offer to almost anyone in the local club that simply asks.

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

I have the same issue with my bank. They are giving away free Apple iPods
for opening an account. I've been banking there 25 years, and so I thought
i'd ask the branch manager what they would do for me,the loyal customer?

Nothing. They are only interested in new accounts.

My cable tv supplier sends out a coupon saying that they are offering free
Motorola Razor cell phones for customers who sign up for their Digital TV service.
I'm already a digital subscriber, so I ask for a phone. No dice!

In the end, you need to be happy with what you're actually paying for,
and only make transactions that you think are fair value. Don't buy things
for more money than you need to, and don't feel entitlement to extra discounts.
I think people get frustrated because they feel they 'overpay', and then want
something later in return. I evaluate each purchase or service individually.
g

[flydhest]

no likey, no buyee.

[bironi]

Today my shop gave me a new Michelin 700x23. I did not buy the tire at the shop, but that was never in question. The tire split at the center seam 360 degrees with about a 1/16 depth gap. This was the first time I have seen a Michelin Pro Race have this quality control issue, hopefully the last. Anyway, this is typical of the service at my shop. For those is the area:

The Bike Stand
Olympia, WA

Byron