Crit bike ideas

[jimoots]

Hi folks,

After a couple of seasons of racing and watching one too many crashes unfold right before my eyes, I'm thinking I'd like to put the Moots on the sidelines for racing duties. I'd rather race something I can afford to replace!

I've turned my eye to the second hand market to look for something that is a bit unique.

I'd prefer the bike to be made of metal... Steel, alloy or ti... I don't mind as long as I can get the bike under 8kg with 6800 Ultegra.

CAADs are the obvious choice... and I've also been eying off a couple of steel Condors and some older alloy Colnago's (dream, mix) but any other ideas?

Budget is about AU$1000 (USD $600-700, GBP 500) for the frameset.

Thanks in advance!

[stien]

I've got an Emonda ALR complete in the classifieds. ~1kg frame is a good start.

[spartanKid]

The recent SmartWeld Allez framesets are a good choice too

[jimoots]

I've got an Emonda ALR complete in the classifieds. ~1kg frame is a good start.

Nice bike. I think the fit of yours would be a bit out for me.

I would be chasing a 54cm with 14-15cm HT.

Also I am steering away from carbon... I like the fact with metal you can have a crash, inspect and continue to ride with some semblance of confidence.

[Ralph]

As you say.....CAADS are the obvious choice. BB height for crank arm clearance for cornering, 73.5 degree ST angle, most sizes have long TT's relatively short HT's for a racing position, short chain stays, very light weight to accelerate from corners, cheap to replace, etc. hard to beat for crit racing.

Not so hard to beat for other uses. But you asked about crit racing. I think CAADS are built for crit racing. Their whole design is how you build a crit bike.

[azrider]

You've already answered your own question.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-CANNONDALE-CAAD-10-ROAD-FRAMESET-FRAME-54CM-CARBON-FORK-BICYCLE-/151958878010?hash=item236174773a:g:ZH0AAOSwGotWogc k

^^^THIS with a 1x10 (or 11) and be sure to slam that stem :cool:

http://slamthatstem.com/

[mrk_d]

Used Spooky Skeletor if you can find one would make a great, unique crit bike.

[MesiJezi]

Late 2000s giant tcr. Perfect crit bike.

[beeatnik]

Get an older Moots.

[ceolwulf]

Scott Speedster also a good option.

[wgp]

Get an older Moots.

What he said!

[oldfatslow]

Get Chinese carbon. Rides great. Stiff enough. When it gets crushed in a crash you buy another one. Here's one for $342 USD.

I know some will doubt but I've bought and built a bunch of these through the years for myself or friends and they are awesome (they just lack that mainstream brand name):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Carbon-bicycle-Road-bike-ISP-Frame-Fork-54cm-3K-GLOSSY-/171121034823?hash=item27d79bc647:g:qJgAAOxyOmBSKc5 6

[r_mutt]

as much as i'd like to say my more expensive carbon bikes were much better than my caad10, that bike remains my favorite.

[stien]

Nice bike. I think the fit of yours would be a bit out for me.

I would be chasing a 54cm with 14-15cm HT.

Also I am steering away from carbon... I like the fact with metal you can have a crash, inspect and continue to ride with some semblance of confidence.

Well with a negative stem, anything is possible! My problem with it is that I have super short legs, no enough drop possible.

[oldpotatoe]

Hi folks,

After a couple of seasons of racing and watching one too many crashes unfold right before my eyes, I'm thinking I'd like to put the Moots on the sidelines for racing duties. I'd rather race something I can afford to replace!

I've turned my eye to the second hand market to look for something that is a bit unique.

I'd prefer the bike to be made of metal... Steel, alloy or ti... I don't mind as long as I can get the bike under 8kg with 6800 Ultegra.

CAADs are the obvious choice... and I've also been eying off a couple of steel Condors and some older alloy Colnago's (dream, mix) but any other ideas?

Budget is about AU$1000 (USD $600-700, GBP 500) for the frameset.

Thanks in advance!

Not sure how hard or expensive it would be 'down under', but Gunnar Roadie is a pretty good choice for a racer/crit bike. If I were to race(and I'm not)..it's what I would use. AND for a race bike, if ya gotta use shimano-use 5800..similar performance for lot$ le$$.

http://www.gunnarbikes.com

[carpediemracing]

Well with a negative stem, anything is possible! My problem with it is that I have super short legs, no enough drop possible.

Semi derailment but you should consider a custom geo frame. I look at the picture of your bike and imagine a level TT that's maybe longer (if that's part of the problem) with a level or 80 deg stem. More efficient. I wish I could do that with my bike.

I was in the same boat as you, couldn't get stretched out enough. 5'7", 28.5" inseam. I'd be better off as a bowling pin. That "fit test" with the hub getting obscured by the bars? Forget the hub, when I looked down in front of the bars I could see the brake, head tube.

I ended up going with the smallest seat tube I'd ever used, copied off a size S TCR aluminum, 40 cm c-c, I think 44 cm c-t, sloping top tube. Top tube effective 56.5. 75.5 deg STA. "Shortest possible head tube" ended up 9.5 cm. When I got on the bike the first time I was like, "wow, why did I wait all these years?". Other than an unsettling thing (my legs didn't hit the bars every time I stood up so for a while I had this panic moment when I stood that my stem had broken and let go of the bars) the fit was everything I wanted.

73 HTA, 43mm rake. Very neutral front end that turns in well.

The long front end (wheel base was 103 cm or so, maybe 104 cm) meant I had too much weight over the front. The rear skittered around just coasting in turns, forget about pedaling. I had a second frame built with 39 cm stays. That worked so well I had the first frame modded by the builder, he reduced the 40.5 cm stays (my spec) to 39.3 cm ("39 cm or as short as possible").

Now with a compact bar, with 3 cm less drop and 3 cm less reach, the bike looks funky again with the required stem to get my drops where I want them to be relative to the BB and front hub.

My aluminum frame, no fork, was well under $1000 shipped. I don't know what the builder charges now; it may be that he's no longer building frames (his site isn't there).

[carpediemracing]

Hi folks,

After a couple of seasons of racing and watching one too many crashes unfold right before my eyes, I'm thinking I'd like to put the Moots on the sidelines for racing duties. I'd rather race something I can afford to replace!

I've turned my eye to the second hand market to look for something that is a bit unique.

I'd prefer the bike to be made of metal... Steel, alloy or ti... I don't mind as long as I can get the bike under 8kg with 6800 Ultegra.

CAADs are the obvious choice... and I've also been eying off a couple of steel Condors and some older alloy Colnago's (dream, mix) but any other ideas?

Budget is about AU$1000 (USD $600-700, GBP 500) for the frameset.

Thanks in advance!

Keep in mind that most aluminum frames will most likely have a carbon fork, and if there's anything you don't want to break unexpectedly, it's the fork. It happens to be pretty hard to inspect as well. A carbon frame is easier to inspect. Significantly, at least for the frame, carbon is probably the easiest to fix of the all the materials out there, since you don't have to weld. I know racers in the area that repaired their own frames. Clunky looking but they played it safe and I know one repair has held up for 5+ years.

Having said that I understand what you're saying. The reality is that a carbon frame, when it fails, usually fails catastrophically.

Depending on what sort of courses you deal with and your style of racing, pretty much any entry level frame that fits you that has reasonably short stays (40.5 cm seems to be the magic number for normal bikes) and a 73 deg HTA should work. I mention HTA because there are some smaller bikes out there with shallower HTA; as a shorter rider I used to ride them, and when I first got on a 73 HTA bike (43mm rake) it was a massive difference. Carving a corner, not that much, but accelerating out of the saddle I felt like I could put the front tire anywhere I wanted.

My dream bike (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2009/12/racing-team-bike.html) would be a lower end bike, with fit/contact things replaced, and race wheels. I think it'd be a hoot to race what was originally a sub-$1000 retail bike. A very good friend did just that, played in the Cat 3s for a bit on a $800 retail Jamis (aluminum frame, some sub-105 Shimano spec). As he wore stuff out he replaced with slightly nicer stuff.

[berserk87]

When I raced crits I used Cannondale frames, for the most part. One of them pre-dated the CAAD series, and it was a pawn-shop find, with Dura Ace 8 speed, that I got for $185.00.

I also had a Team Saeco edition frame (CAAD 3, I think), and the Stars and Stripes edition paint scheme (CAAD 4 maybe).

I learned the hard way that a crit bike frame should something that you can afford to lose to a crash (and I also liked the solidity of the Cannondales). I lost a DeRosa and a damaged a Merkcx MX Leader due to race crashes and that cured me of racing on pricier frames.

One season I raced on a frame I got from "Chucksbikes.com", which is no longer a website. It was a Tsunami (not from the same as from the guy that was a custom builder), some knock-off from China. I got it for about $175, with carbon fork, and used it for one season. I had a good season on the frame, until it broke at the chain stay/dropout weld.

The point of the story is that for crit racing, you don't need something expensive to get results. My strategy was to have a frame that was inexpensive, with a usable fork. I outfitted it with the best hardware I could afford, and let 'er rip.

[shovelhd]

I would not shy away from used carbon. There was a 54cm Felt Fc, barely used, in the classifieds here. The seller wasn't in a huge rush to sell it so it may still be around. It's an awesome crit bike. I'll sell mine only to replace it with a newer model.

The other choices mentioned are also good ones. For a new aluminum frame you can't beat the Allez.

[FreeFour]

Giant TCR SLR is a killer crit machine.

I liked mine much better than the CAAD10 I owned previously.

[stien]

Semi derailment but you should consider a custom geo frame. I look at the picture of your bike and imagine a level TT that's maybe longer (if that's part of the problem) with a level or 80 deg stem. More efficient. I wish I could do that with my bike.

I was in the same boat as you, couldn't get stretched out enough. 5'7", 28.5" inseam. I'd be better off as a bowling pin. That "fit test" with the hub getting obscured by the bars? Forget the hub, when I looked down in front of the bars I could see the brake, head tube.

I ended up going with the smallest seat tube I'd ever used, copied off a size S TCR aluminum, 40 cm c-c, I think 44 cm c-t, sloping top tube. Top tube effective 56.5. 75.5 deg STA. "Shortest possible head tube" ended up 9.5 cm. When I got on the bike the first time I was like, "wow, why did I wait all these years?". Other than an unsettling thing (my legs didn't hit the bars every time I stood up so for a while I had this panic moment when I stood that my stem had broken and let go of the bars) the fit was everything I wanted.

73 HTA, 43mm rake. Very neutral front end that turns in well.

The long front end (wheel base was 103 cm or so, maybe 104 cm) meant I had too much weight over the front. The rear skittered around just coasting in turns, forget about pedaling. I had a second frame built with 39 cm stays. That worked so well I had the first frame modded by the builder, he reduced the 40.5 cm stays (my spec) to 39.3 cm ("39 cm or as short as possible").

Now with a compact bar, with 3 cm less drop and 3 cm less reach, the bike looks funky again with the required stem to get my drops where I want them to be relative to the BB and front hub.

My aluminum frame, no fork, was well under $1000 shipped. I don't know what the builder charges now; it may be that he's no longer building frames (his site isn't there).


Cripe. You and I are descended from the same disproportionate heathens. Add 2" to your height and inseam and that's me. I've definitely felt my rear skid around on corners not knowing why. I'm very interested in a $1000 semi aero aluminum frame. Do you have any contact for tsunami? If I end up seeing you at Ninigret can I throw a leg over your bike?

[Benneke]

Giant TCR SLR is a killer crit machine.

I liked mine much better than the CAAD10 I owned previously.

As a longtime CAAD10 owner, I've never ridden a TCR SLR, can you explain a bit how the TCR outperforms the CAAD?

[Chris]

I would just stick to the Moots. I've had two. They are near indestructible. If you want crit specific bike just for kicks, that's another thing.

[shovelhd]

Which brings up the whole flawed belief that crits are more dangerous and you have a greater chance of wadding your bike in one versus a road race or group ride.

[stien]

Which brings up the whole flawed belief that crits are more dangerous and you have a greater chance of wadding your bike in one versus a road race or group ride.

Saw way more RR crashes last year. Hell, more crashes in one stage of Catskills than crits all year.

[nooneline]

Which brings up the whole flawed belief that crits are more dangerous and you have a greater chance of wadding your bike in one versus a road race or group ride.

I would LOVE the opportunity to collect and analyze data on crashes. Do promoters reliably submit "incident reports" when there are crashes in races? I don't know much about those.

It would be really incredible to look at crashes as a factor of: race type, weather, category, and field size.

We could start to get some actual knowledge about crashes instead of anecdata.

[beeatnik]

More crashes in crits, worst crashes in road races

[Gummee]

Nice bike. I think the fit of yours would be a bit out for me.

I would be chasing a 54cm with 14-15cm HT.

Also I am steering away from carbon... I like the fact with metal you can have a crash, inspect and continue to ride with some semblance of confidence.

Carbon is pretty fixable stuff. There's been a few bikes thru our local carbon fix-it guy that you wouldn't realize were fixed unless you were told

M

[bcroslin]

When you say Condor do you mean a new one or one of the older frames? I've been keeping an eye out Acciaios and they seem to be rare.

[Gummee]

As a longtime CAAD10 owner, I've never ridden a TCR SLR, can you explain a bit how the TCR outperforms the CAAD?

My TCR was a stiff SOB that actually rode decently. I sold it after fiddling* with the ISP too many times.

M

*Yeah, I'm a 'princess and the pea' kind of rider. I tend to fiddle with seat height and fore/aft more'n a bit till I get it 'right.'

[shovelhd]

I would LOVE the opportunity to collect and analyze data on crashes. Do promoters reliably submit "incident reports" when there are crashes in races? I don't know much about those.

It would be really incredible to look at crashes as a factor of: race type, weather, category, and field size.

We could start to get some actual knowledge about crashes instead of anecdata.

Occurrence reports are required by USAC when the rider may require medical attention. The Chief Referee is responsible for filling them out, and thus has discretion on whether the occurrence justifies a report. Data varies wildly. In my LA we are encouraged to provide minimal data, I.e. Riders touched wheels and crashed. We are not to give or interpret medical findings, I.e. Broken collarbone.

With insurance and HIPPA concerns, you're not going to get much more than anecdata until USAC decides it's important.

[shovelhd]

Back to the crit bike. The team I last raced for provided Giant TCR Advanced frames at cost. I chose to ride my own bike, but the rest of the team that rode them raced mainly crits, and loved them.

[nooneline]

Occurrence reports are required by USAC when the rider may require medical attention. The Chief Referee is responsible for filling them out, and thus has discretion on whether the occurrence justifies a report. Data varies wildly. In my LA we are encouraged to provide minimal data, I.e. Riders touched wheels and crashed. We are not to give or interpret medical findings, I.e. Broken collarbone.

With insurance and HIPPA concerns, you're not going to get much more than anecdata until USAC decides it's important.

yeah, none of that surprises me. i wonder if the best approach is probably to work with a handful of promoters in a LA and get a (non-random) sampling of events - and ask the promoters to report all incidents.

someday...

[Chris]

Which brings up the whole flawed belief that crits are more dangerous and you have a greater chance of wadding your bike in one versus a road race or group ride.

This. Lot's of crashes, but in my experience, the most damage to my equipment has come from crashes in road races when you are going in straight line and crash with nowhere to go compared to the usual crashing in corners in a crit. YMMV

[stansarch]

My opinion would be to get the frame that you know you're going to be more comfortable to ride regardless of fearing a crash (it could happen outside of a race too). Having a separate bike specific to just "race" I found annoyed me more because it never quite responded the same with the bike I normally rode/trained with, and I wasted too much time/stress trying to set it up at last minute.

FWIW - in the handful of race crashes I have been involved in over the years frames generally make out better than wheels/shifters/rear derailleurs.

[pinoymamba]

race the moots. :banana:

[carpediemracing]

Cripe. You and I are descended from the same disproportionate heathens. Add 2" to your height and inseam and that's me. I've definitely felt my rear skid around on corners not knowing why. I'm very interested in a $1000 semi aero aluminum frame. Do you have any contact for tsunami? If I end up seeing you at Ninigret can I throw a leg over your bike?

I googled Tsunami Bikes when I replied and his site is not there anymore. Joseph Wells, he has a Twitter account. When I bought the frames, ordered in Dec 2009, Dec 2010, the frames were $650/750 shipped, including a surcharge for the BB30 (I have a BB30 SRM that I wasn't going to give up). He was ill for a while, it's not clear to me if he's still building frames.

Due to family stuff I realistically won't get any further out than East Hartford this year if at all. However any time we're in the same vicinity you're welcome to jump on my bike/s. I have Keo/Exustar pedals, am debating 170 vs 175 cranks (have been on 175s since 2003 except for 2 years trying to move back to 170s with dismal results).

Based on what you're saying, I'd think about a shorter rear stay and probably a longer front end. Lower/shorter head tube also. When I experimented with fit I put my hands on a plastic tote next to my bars (with hardcover books as "fine adjustment spacers"). This way I was free of the bars/stem (I read later that Chris Boardman took the same "no bars or stem" thing when he fit himself for his Merckx hour record bike (http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/aerodynamics-made-easy-30981/)). I couldn't believe how far up I ended up. I went to an LBS with a fit bike and tested my numbers. They seemed reasonable so I ordered the frame.

(FYI Chris Boardman ended up with a 53 cm frame, 63 cm top tube, and a 17 cm stem. His twisted bar set up contributed to a longer set up since the twist reduced reach, but still...)

Recently I had a Guru fit done sort of as a favor to a friend who opened a studio. Saddle height was spot on, to the millimeter. I wanted to extend another cm or two in length since I thought it would help, but the Guru machine maxed out 1 or 2 cm short of my current position, forget about going another 3-4 cm. The more primitive fit bike had a more adjustable set up.

My bikes (same geometry, significant stuff is the 56.5 TT, 75.5 STA, 9.5 HT, 39-ish chainstay) below. Both are workman's bikes, if you will. I'm basically unconcerned about paint, looks. I like to race the bikes, or go fast on them.

Red bike, used to be orange, when orange it had 40.5 stays, now red with 39.3 stays. Stem is there to keep drops in the same place as with the old bars:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-A28N0KMGXng/U5XqZozWbJI/AAAAAAAAGoc/xcKUTilJtlg/s800/DSC_0657.JPG

Black bike, when I first built it up, haven't raced it in a couple years since I haven't bought a matching stem yet. Also I stripped the SRM off this one to put it on the orange bike. Rear stay is a bit tight, 23c tires, if they pick up literally a layer of sand grains, grinds the frame. Is it more aero? I don't know, but I don't think it makes a difference, hence I've been using the red bike. Slightly shorter 39.0 chainstay:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TbmplkIYLx8/TU9e5U4sTrI/AAAAAAAADPE/nam9uHK2nHg/s800/DSC_0811.JPG

[David Tollefson]

Serious contender for 650c wheels right there...

[Tandem Rider]

Don't worry about crashing a nice bike because it's a crit, race your A bike and nice wheels, that's why we have them.

Assuming you are somewhere near "normal" proportions, get the "team" deal. If you are short on cash or don't belong to a team, get last years bike from a team member that doesn't race much but likes to have the latest. Set it up to fit properly and ride the snot out of it. If you munch it, repeat.

[FreeFour]

As a longtime CAAD10 owner, I've never ridden a TCR SLR, can you explain a bit how the TCR outperforms the CAAD?

In my experience, the TCR felt considerably stiffer than the CAAD10 in the bottom bracket. Giant's "truth about frame testing" white paper rates the TCR quite high in pedaling stiffness, ranking right alongside their own high-end carbon frames and those of competitors.

That said, you really can't go wrong with either bike. I still love the aesthetic of the CAAD10.

[jimoots]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Some great ideas in there!

The grade I am currently racing in (Cat 3) seems to be crash prone when racing crits. I would like to get moved up but I'm not sure how realistic that is. On the road the racing seems much more sedate.

Either way I plan to race what I can afford to replace.

It looks like I may be going down the Giant path as I know a few crew who race for them. See what comes of it!

[Fatty]

Cervelo S1 or Soloist whatever they call it.
Fast bike, they can be had cheap on Craigslist in my neck of the woods.

[redir]

I would just stick to the Moots. I've had two. They are near indestructible. If you want crit specific bike just for kicks, that's another thing.

Me too, in fact I do. I race my Moots Compact in all road racing events. WHen you look at the results of the far majority of crashes the thing that gets damaged the least is the frame. Rarely does a frame get crushed in the average crit crash which typically involves sliding out in a corner and damaging the points of contact like bars, shifters, derailleur and so on.

Wheels often times get toasted so if you want to race what you cann afford to replace then get cheaper wheels.

But then again if you have nice wheels it's a shame to not race them. SO just race what you got and cross that bridge when you get to it.

[stien]

Cervelo S1 or Soloist whatever they call it.
Fast bike, they can be had cheap on Craigslist in my neck of the woods.

Fantastic bike. I raced one for a year, trained on it longer. Now have the carbon version (SLC).

If you see a 54cm one give a holler...

[BryonB]

CAADS make great Crit bikes!

[sailorboy]

More crashes in crits, worst crashes in road races

this

[phutterman]

I use my steel no-longer-main road bike for crits mainly because the BB is higher so it pedals through tighter corners more easily than my (otherwise faster - stiffer, lighter, etc) carbon bike which has a particularly low BB and feels a bit strike-prone.

The steel one's a little heavier but not much and races well, too. (It's a modern, production reynolds 853 frame.) I'm not all that afraid of racing the carbon one either for its sake or mine but I don't worry at all about the steel one, so there's that. Anyway, it's nice to have a second road bike for bad weather, overhauling one, etc., regardless of the crit angle. I wouldn't go as far as to do anything too crit-specific to the steel bike like a single ring because I also use it in bad weather, on road-oriented mixed terrain, etc. But if my main bike was Ti I definitely wouldn't worry about the frame. I do like running cheaper shifters/derailleurs on the steel bike because I expect to scrape them on the ground from time to time.