tubeless rims, are they all a pain in ass?

[bicycletricycle]

I don't have any tubeless tire set ups. I have recently built a couple wheels with pacenti tubeless ready rims (700c PL23 and 650b SL23) the PL23s are the last gen and the SL23s are the older generation. Both are a real pain in the ass to get tires on and off of, I switched to pacenti rim tape and they are still much harder than non tubeless rims with the same tires. It is also harder to get the tire to seat.

I am concerned for a few reasons-

1. I ride all winter and a flat when it is freezing is already hard enough to deal with when your hands are frozen.

2. The usual way to deal with a badly seated tire, adding some pressure to pop it into place, is difficult and exhausting to do with a hand pump.

3. I don't really trust that pacenti tape, or any super thin tape for that matter, I had a few bad experiences with non velox tapes over the years and prefer something i know wont let me down.

questions-

1. Are all tubeless ready rims harder to get tires on?

2. Are tubeless tires just as difficult to get on tubeless rims?

3. Who makes the most full proof super thin rim tape?

thanks for the feedback

[ofcounsel]

The new Schwalbe Pro One's are super easy to mount. Stan's No tubes tape is thin, but is reliable and pretty much industry standard.

I use an air compressor rather than a hand pump for initial set up.

[alioup]

I use schwalbe pro ones on pacenti sl23 v2. I was able to mount them by hand and havent had any issues with them in the last 1000 miles. Im using one layer of schwalbe tape too.

[eddief]

that has tubeless rim tape instead of normal rim strip. I have to carry one of these on the bike and that made it all ok, but still tight as an f-ing drum:

http://randonneurextra.blogspot.com/2009/02/making-life-easier-var-tire-lever.html

[DfCas]

I had some older Stans Arch rims that were very hard to mount road tires on. I switched to Velocity A 23's using 2 layers of Velocity tape and no problem.

[ergott]

Options keep getting better and better.

The Pacenti V2 are an improvement. I've also used DT 440 and they mounted well.

Schwalbe tires mount easier than Hutchinson in my experience. The Schwalbe tire lineup is growing fast and quality has been excellent.

Anyone starting out today won't have to know the great difficulty of the first few options out there. My first tubless road set was Stan's ZTR 29er rims and I used Hutchinson Fusion 2 tires. That was an absolute bear to mount first time. I've mounted Secteurs by hand now.

You don't want the fit to be too loose. Then you risk burping to easily. Tubeless should be a tight fit. Best advise is to carry one or two tire levers with a steel core. I use one Soma lever which is inexpensive and comparatively small.

[zank]

Generally speaking, the key is pushing the entire bead into the drop channel before trying to seat or unseat the bead. This slackens the bead enough to get bead over the hook.

[bcroslin]

I had to fix a flat on a Stan's 29'er rim this morning and it involved a lot of cursing and sore fingers. Stupid tubeless wheels.

[Jim9112]

Generally speaking, the key is pushing the entire bead into the drop channel before trying to seat or unseat the bead. This slackens the bead enough to get bead over the hook.


This, any rim with a good sized drop channel isn't bad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stien]

Flatted recently by a huge hole on tubeless. Next day I converted the wheels back to tubes. My ride was over. Couldn't even get a tube in.

[Fatty]

I can only reference my own experience with mountain tubeless.
Mavic UST specifically. My opinion is that they are a piece of cake.
Air up no problem with a floor pump. The first time seating a tire a spray bottle full of very diluted dish soap is your friend.

[Mikej]

Yes inner rim diameter is larger to help with the airing up of the tire - it helps the bead sit tight to allow less air to leak out. Also, stat mounting on the OPPOSITE side of the valve. A warm tire also fits better or easier. Soapy water is also your best bet.

[sandyrs]

I can only reference my own experience with mountain tubeless.
Mavic UST specifically. My opinion is that they are a piece of cake.
Air up no problem with a floor pump. The first time seating a tire a spray bottle full of very diluted dish soap is your friend.

UST is kind of a different story due to the retaining ridge between the rim wall and the center channel and the specific shape of the bead. It's easier to mount tires to but the tolerances are tighter. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that road tubeless tires seat easily on this style of rim but then are too tight to get back over the ridge.

Anyway, OP, I'll second that gen 2 pacentis (sl25 in my case) were pretty easy to mount a tire on.

[mod6]

I have found every tire tubeless or not to be a nightmare to mount on Pacenti sl23 v1. Pretty much impossible with Schwalbe or Hutchinson tubeless using every trick in the book. Finally got the Schwalbe's mounted using a metal tire leaver for a motocross rim, not before punching a small hole between the eyelets. Get a flat on the road you would never get a tube in. On the other hand I have a set of disc specific A23's on my Niner RLT. Have run Schwalbe, Hutchinson, Kenda happy medium cross tires tubeless. All mount up by hand and I can uses a floor pump to inflate. On the MTB never had an issue with stans crest or LB carbon hoops with various maxis and Schwalbe tires.

[johnniecakes]

Yes , road tubeless are a pain for no benefit in my experience. Not worth the extra touble or money

[bicycletricycle]

Sort of unfortunate that a lot of nice rims are going tubeless ready.

[ergott]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Hed Belgium Plus, Pacentil SL23 V2, and DT 440 rims are all tubeless ready. You can mount standard tube/clincher tires to all of them without levers if you just take an extra 30 seconds and use the correct techniques. They are the same techniques that have always been the best. There have always been tight rim/tire combinations long before tubeless.

Sure it took a few years for tubeless technology to become more standardized, but people posting the negatives based on older rims or an experience they had a few years ago does nothing to educate people on what's currently out there.

If I didn't personally mount tires to all the above rims I wouldn't say what I'm saying. I've mounted clinchers to all of them and never used a tire lever to finish the job.

It's not a shame that more and more rims are coming tubeless ready. It's progress and I'll be the first to tell you that tubeless isn't for everyone

[ofcounsel]

Sort of unfortunate that a lot of nice rims are going tubeless ready.

Why unfortunate? You can still use tubes if you like.

[bicycletricycle]

Cool, glad to here some manufacturers have figured it out.

Questions-
Do these rims still take more effort than a good non tubeless rim?
Do they still take over pressurization to get tires to seat well?


Not sure why it's progress for the people who don't want tubeless to have rims that are more difficult in someway to use. But I get that some people see tubeless as the future, my experience with tubeless tires does not get me very excited about more limited tube tires and rims. Oh well.

[bicycletricycle]

Why unfortunate? You can still use tubes if you like.

If I don't care about tubeless tires than why do I want rims that are harder to use with standard tires? Just cause I can put tubes in the tire doesn't mean it works as well as a regular rim.

I'll have to try one of the rims ergot recommends above. Hopefully someone can figure out the rim geometry so that it works well for both users.

[ergott]

1) More effort? No. Only a problem if you hamfist the install.

2) Over pressure? No. Closest I've come to that need is with 28mm and larger tires. I might have to got all the way up to 70psi before I drop the pressure back down to 60psi.

I remember how much people complained about the original DT RR box rims and also Campagnolo wheel/rims. Wasn't tubeless fault then.

[ergott]

There's always the Hed C2 (the 23mm wide) and H+Son Archetype that are not tubeless ready. Still nice rims.

[bicycletricycle]

Certainly many non tubeless rims have been difficult to get tires on and off of. I used to have these matrix mt. titan rims, holy crap, just about impossible.

I only run tires 28mm and up, hmm, I usually get lazy and inflate my tires up to 45 or 50 and ride home dodging potholes.

I like the looks of those V2 SL23. I will be excited to see how they work if I end up putting them on something. Those belgiums look nice but are so many dollars. No 36 hole love in those rims either.

The VO raid rims I use on my commuter bike right now are really easy to get tires mounted onto. I got a flat in sub freezing temps the other day and it sucked but could have sucked a lot more.

hilarious to be an old man complaining about a lack of 36 hole regular rims.
oh well
:)


1) More effort? No. Only a problem if you hamfist the install.

2) Over pressure? No. Closest I've come to that need is with 28mm and larger tires. I might have to got all the way up to 70psi before I drop the pressure back down to 60psi.

I remember how much people complained about the original DT RR box rims and also Campagnolo wheel/rims. Wasn't tubeless fault then.

[bicycletricycle]

There's always the Hed C2 (the 23mm wide) and H+Son Archetype that are not tubeless ready. Still nice rims.

I like the H+Son TB14 as well, they are medium easy install. kinda soft (dented a few pretty easily) but overall nice.

[ofcounsel]

Cool, glad to here some manufacturers have figured it out.

Questions-
Do these rims still take more effort than a good non tubeless rim?
Do they still take over pressurization to get tires to seat well?


Not sure why it's progress for the people who don't want tubeless to have rims that are more difficult in someway to use. But I get that some people see tubeless as the future, my experience with tubeless tires does not get me very excited about more limited tube tires and rims. Oh well.

I've used the HED Ardennes+, and mounting tubeless tires was a super easy one handed proposition.

I've also just had a set of Nox Composites A36D disc wheels built up, and again, mounting the tires was a super easy one handed proposition. No different than mounting a regular tire.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s81/ofcounsel/Focus/EF2E4634-7889-480A-9EE0-CE2BBD27E4A8_zpsoqbqbtmd.jpg

But I'm also using Schwalbe tires, not Hutchison. I've heard Hutchison can be difficult.

I've been using tubeless set ups on my mountain bikes for several years now, so I'm used to setting up my wheels tubeless.

I'll be honest, I don't bother using a hand pump because I have an air compressor in my garage. I also use a little bit of Schwalbe Easy Fit tire mounting fluid, and that might help if you were using a hand pump as well.

But Bontgreager makes the TLR Flash Charger hand pump, and that that makes tubeless set up easy, even though it's a hand pump.

[ofcounsel]

If I don't care about tubeless tires than why do I want rims that are harder to use with standard tires? Just cause I can put tubes in the tire doesn't mean it works as well as a regular rim.

I'll have to try one of the rims ergot recommends above. Hopefully someone can figure out the rim geometry so that it works well for both users.

It might just be the particular rims you are using. I've never had any experience with the Pacenti's you are using, but the problems you are experiencing may be due to the rims. Maybe they're an earlier design?

[ergott]

Certainly many non tubeless rims have been difficult to get tires on and off of. I used to have these matrix mt. titan rims, holy crap, just about impossible.
:)


What I like is the fact that Kirk Pacenti has an online presence here (and elsewhere). He came out with a great rim (SL23 V1) and listened to the feedback of both builders like me and the riders that used them. With that feedback he improved the rim in short time. He listened and delivered.

You won't get that with most other component manufacturers.

:beer:

[Fatty]

Come to think of it my Velocity A23 are tubeless ready rims.
No mounting challenges or different technique needed when fitting a regular clincher with a tube.

[bicycletricycle]

That's interesting, those don't have the normal tubeless ready tire bed with the channel down the middle.

[ergott]

That's interesting, those don't have the normal tubeless ready tire bed with the channel down the middle.

A23 went tubeless (deep center channel) a few years ago. Around the same time as they brought production to the US.

[R3awak3n]

what tires are you using? compass?

Older compass tires are a pain to get to sit right but the new stuff is much better (the new switchbacks sit very easily on the rim compared to the babyshoe, it is something they improved, having to do with the bead)

[Fatty]

Comes in a 36 hole drilling.

http://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/quill-622

[CNY rider]

So how does something like a Shimano DA C24 tubeless compare with these other rims?

[Tin Turtle]

I have Stans Arch 29ers with Geax on my mountain bike and once I did it a few times it wasn't an issue. I use a compressor to get them to seat. I have not had a catastrophic failure while riding, but it doesn't seem crazy hard to put a tube in. The biggest hassle is cleaning out the old gunk every 3-4 months.

[Cicli]

So how does something like a Shimano DA C24 tubeless compare with these other rims?

I mounted some Schwalbe ones on a set of these. They were not bad. Just keep the bead in the center of the rim as suggested.

To be honest, I have found most Challenge clinchers harder to mount than any of the tubeless I have ever dealt with. Try them on a Campagnolo rim.

[weisan]

What I like is the fact that Kirk Pacenti has an online presence here (and elsewhere). He came out with a great rim (SL23 V1) and listened to the feedback of both builders like me and the riders that used them. With that feedback he improved the rim in short time. He listened and delivered.

You won't get that with most other component manufacturers.

:beer:

I agree with Ergott pal wholeheartedly. I have owned both v1 and v2 of Pacenti SL23 rims. Due to the initial difficulties I had with v1, I have since swapped over to v2 and the tire mounting process is vastly improved. I also picked up proper tire mounting techniques/tips from ergott and others along the way and now, on most days, I can mount my tires just by hands without any levers.

[jtakeda]

I understand this thread.

Finally mounting tires on my Pacenti PL23 wheelset and theyre impossible.
I've broken a tire lever and my tire bead jack.
I'm seriously ready to sell the wheels I just got built up.
If I do manage to get a tire on there they better ride like a dream because I'm not sure I'd ever buy a Pacenti rim again.

I'll try pacenti rim tape and hope that helps.

Alright, end rant.

ps. ruffy tuffy on pl23.

[Johnny P]

I understand this thread.

Finally mounting tires on my Pacenti PL23 wheelset and theyre impossible.
I've broken a tire lever and my tire bead jack.
I'm seriously ready to sell the wheels I just got built up.
If I do manage to get a tire on there they better ride like a dream because I'm not sure I'd ever buy a Pacenti rim again.

I'll try pacenti rim tape and hope that helps.

Alright, end rant.

ps. ruffy tuffy on pl23.

It might be the tire and rim combination. I have some Pacenti early version rims and could not mount a Conti tire on them. However, I had no problem mounting a Schwalbe tire. Good luck.

[jtakeda]

It might be the tire and rim combination. I have some Pacenti early version rims and could not mount a Conti tire on them. However, I had no problem mounting a Schwalbe tire. Good luck.

Possibly.

I got the rear tire on before the tire bead jack broke.

[BobbyJones]

FWIW I just got a new pair of Pacenti SL23 v2's.

To preface, my technique is solid: Im usually the one who grabs someone else's wheel on a ride after they flat and take more than a few minutes to reseat the tire. Rarely use levers.

Mounting Conti Gatorskins with tubes on these was an exercise in frustration, but doable without levers. I went at it again the next day "just to be sure". Ended up using a lever to get the rear on just to get it over and done with.

Amazing how the tire bead locks right in though.

[Black Dog]

This thread is still full of the misinformation about tubeless ready rims and regular clinchers. I am amazed at the oft repeated comments about "impossible to mount" tires. It is simple. 1. Use a tubeless rim tape. They are thin and very strong. 2. Set the tire beads in the rim's well when mounting. You may need a lever to finish the last section of bead. Not a big deal. It seems that a lot of folks are still working against the tire and the rim and not with them.

Will all tire and rim combinations be easy. No. This has been the case long before tubeless rims existed. A new tire will always be harder to mount than a tire that has "stretched" after some use.

Rant over...:D

[ofcounsel]

This thread is still full of the misinformation about tubeless ready rims and regular clinchers. I am amazed at the oft repeated comments about "impossible to mount" tires. It is simple. 1. Use a tubeless rim tape. They are thin and very strong. 2. Set the tire beads in the rim's well when mounting. You may need a lever to finish the last section of bead. Not a big deal. It seems that a lot of folks are still working against the tire and the rim and not with them.

Will all tire and rim combinations be easy. No. This has been the case long before tubeless rims existed. A new tire will always be harder to mount than a tire that has "stretched" after some use.

Rant over...:D

While you are generally correct, it seems like folks are having some particularly bad experiences with early versions of a Pacenti rim. The problem isn't with the tubeless concept, it's with the rim.

[Hermes_Alex]

As has been mentioned earlier, thin tape is really key in doing tubed/tubeless setups that wont make you want to kill yourself. A lot of the tubes-on-tubeless rim drama that I encounter is due to people using thick old cloth tape a la Velox, which usually resolves itself with a transition to a thin nylon strip, or tubeless tape.

Most quality rims are tubeless ready these days because the number of people who demand tubeless capability is much much larger than the number of people who hate tubeless with a passion. They're not much harder to make than a regular rim.

[ergott]

Always finish off at the valve. This bears repeating because I see people disregard this all the time.

Finish at the valve, not opposite.

[Vinci]

I haven't had any trouble with tubeless or regular clincher tires on my carbon tubeless rims. They are 25mm wide, though, so maybe that makes a difference over 23mm rims.

I've mounted/dismounted Michelin Pro 3's, Vittoria Open Corsas, and Schwalbe Pro Ones (tubeless). All were possible to mount almost entirely by hand. The last couple inches got levered on to save my thumbs.

This was with a double wrap of 3M film strapping tape (essentially blue Stan's tape, but much cheaper) and no "mounting fluid", despite Schwalbe's recommendation.

If all tubeless rims worked like that, I'd only buy that style. I've had non-tubeless rims be way more of a battle.

[jtakeda]

I should've just gone with the stans tape from the get.

Did it no prob. Pacenti rim-you're ok in my book