riding in usa

[ada@prorider.or]

well here again
when i see people riding at the roads of usa i have great respect for them ,as people in car do not take any care of them

for myselve it hard for my to think or training on those roads with seperations of other trafic
here in europa we also have roads together with cars
but there is a totaly differant attitude of the people against cyclist

my heart turns around when i almost read about accidents with car involved and almost evrytime deadly


even road race´s are held on the same road with cars

i personaly think that as a cycling comunity you have to do something about

meaby just visit mr bush and take him on a ride
with out any security people around him
then i would think differant then

if he can do that in china why not at your country
so just call him and make a appointment

cees

[Serpico]

lotta douchebags behind the wheel over here, imo

[a100mark]

and Mr. B :argue: has got more important things to think about.....................hmm, I wonder what that might be.

[stevep]

meaby just visit mr bush and take him on a ride
with out any security people around him
then i would think differant then



cees

cees,
we talked to bush. now he's gonna attack belgium after we take over holland. sorry, you shoulda shut up. too late now.

[Kevan]

well here again
when i see people riding at the roads of usa i have great respect for them ,as people in car do not take any care of them

for myselve it hard for my to think or training on those roads with seperations of other trafic
here in europa we also have roads together with cars
but there is a totaly differant attitude of the people against cyclist

my heart turns around when i almost read about accidents with car involved and almost evrytime deadly


even road race´s are held on the same road with cars

i personaly think that as a cycling comunity you have to do something about

meaby just visit mr bush and take him on a ride
with out any security people around him
then i would think differant then

if he can do that in china why not at your country
so just call him and make a appointment

cees

You came through crystal clear, my friend. You're right, this country has a lot to learn about the benefits of the bicycle and 5 generations worth of automobile lust to wipe away. America loves their car. They NEED their car. They design their homes around the car. They build bigger roads so it's easier to work, to play. They build their conveniences (stores, malls, restaurants etc.) around the car.

In my immediate office of about 3-400 individuals, I think I'm the only person who regularly commutes by bicycle. Even with the recent sticker shock on gas prices people stick to their car, no bicycles. What's sad is, by my reference of regular commuting, I only do it during the summer months and only twice a week. That's hardly regular, but no one else in my office gets anywhere near as close to my frequency of riding. I have fellow cyclists in my office, weekend warriors and racers, and even they don't commute. But they have their reasons for not commuting, including living either too far or, imagine this, living too close to the office.

When I tell people who don't ride where I live and how I get to work, their jaws drops. They have no understanding why anyone would ride that distance. Walk by people's workstations during their down times (early morning, lunch, end of day) you'll see them surfing the web looking at new cars.

[Louis]

this country has a lot to learn about the benefits of the bicycle and 5 generations worth of automobile lust to wipe away. America loves their car

While this may be true, I don't think that it explains why drivers here are so willing to pass cyclists in a blind turn, knowing full well that if another vehicle shows up coming in the other direction their first action will be to pull over to the right, knocking over and possibly killing the cyclist.

That's essentially saying that 5, maybe 10 seconds of the driver's time are more important to him / her than the probability of an accident x the remainder of the cyclist's life. That's not liking your car, it's selfishness and blatant disregard for another life.

I don't know how often this happens to cyclists in other countries, since I've never ridden elsewhere, but I do know that it happens to me in Missouri all the time (nearly all of my rides are on twisty, low-traffic roads). If it does happen much more often here then that is surely an indictment of American drivers and the American psyche.

Louis

[Fixed]

bro you need a messenger ? I'll go to holland I like orange
cheers

[shinomaster]

That sound just great Cees, except that here in America we have these things called red-necks. These sorts of folk delight in running us off the road, spitting, and swearing at, and even theatening us. America is a beautiful place, but sadly we have red-necks, with gun racks in pick up trucks. SUV drivers ar dangerous as well, but usually it is on account of the operators using cell phones calling other soccer moms, and the fact that the roads wern't designed for such fat, greedy vehicles.

[swoop]

cars suck. it's deep.. here in LA the city is built around the car... which in turn has destroyed the civic experience, the sense of community and neighborhood.. and killed the opportunity to live on a human scale. bikes are not treated well.. i have close calls and the threat of violent drivers daily. a guy tried to take me off my bike today and pulled over to try and fight...
but that's just in the city.. out in malibu or up around solvang or santa barbara.. where there is less traffic is arguably the best riding in the world.

the thing about America is that it's a very very big place.... so it's hard to look at is as one entity. when you look at the amount of raods and cyclists and cars.. i am willing to bet that per rider.. we have less incidents than it seems. we've lost a lot of good people in LA to cars kiling them on their bikes.

that being said.. in 20 years i've been through 4 windshields of cars. i guess i'm lucky...

:)

[Johny]

meaby just visit mr bush and take him on a ride
with out any security people around him
then i would think differant then


Wait a minute. Didn't he go to 2006 Nottrott wearing a zebra suit?

[alancw3]

i have been riding bikes for 45 plus years now and i can truthly say that i think that american drivers, by and large, have come a long way in recognizing the rights of cyclists on the road. back when i started serious riding i can remember that drivers attitudes were that they always had the right of way over cyclists whether in turning, intersections or on the road. cyclists should be on sidewalks was the general attitude. now a days a good many drivers are much more cognesant of cyclists and generally respect there space on the road far more. that is not to say things could improve more. if we could only get rid of those luxury high priced car drivers who think they own the road!

[Kevan]

While this may be true, I don't think that it explains why drivers here are so willing to pass cyclists in a blind turn, knowing full well that if another vehicle shows up coming in the other direction their first action will be to pull over to the right, knocking over and possibly killing the cyclist.


but I think the point is more Americans have to get on a bike, on a regular basis, to fully come to terms with what it is to be a "cyclist". Until that happens... it will always be us and them.

One last point: we have to face fact that certain regions of this country will remain "car" territory as the distances, terrain and climate are such that cycling, as an everyday occurance, isn't realistically viable. In those areas we can only hope weekend warriors persevere.

[Avispa]

meaby just visit mr bush and take him on a ride
with out any security people around him
then i would think differant then

if he can do that in china why not at your country
so just call him and make a appointment



Broer Cees,

I thouth Lance did all that, but it didn't help! I can only guess that Bush's friends in the oil industry are more powerful than his friends in the bicycle industry. By the way, I always see Mr. Bush on a mountain bike... never on the road.

Now, what did he do in China? I think China, unfortunatelly, is going the way of the USA! China is becoming a car driven society, just like us. The advantage they have over us [in the USA] is that they were on bikes before, we never were. So if the Chinese have to get back to bikes, I think they will. But, before we get on bikes I am afraid there are going to be a lot more wars! I bet....

However, I have always said, that [B]DRIVER EDUCATION is more important than road design. How much it costs to get a driver license in Europe [Holland]? In most places here in the USA is $20 and you are out the door!

I just spend $500 plus and more than 4 days to get a motorcycle certification and license. I think that's the way it should be for a car!

[atmo]

<cut>So before we get on bikes, I am afraid there are going to be a lot more wars! I bet....

i agree with your atmo.

[obtuse]

i have been riding bikes for 45 plus years now and i can truthly say that i think that american drivers, by and large, have come a long way in recognizing the rights of cyclists on the road. back when i started serious riding i can remember that drivers attitudes were that they always had the right of way over cyclists whether in turning, intersections or on the road. cyclists should be on sidewalks was the general attitude. now a days a good many drivers are much more cognesant of cyclists and generally respect there space on the road far more. that is not to say things could improve more. if we could only get rid of those luxury high priced car drivers who think they own the road!


true. but there are many more cars now; so even if there are fewer arseholes in terms of percentage; there are a hell of alot more of them in pure quantity. i get into at least one "altercation" per ride.

obtuse

[dbrk]

These past few days I have been in beautiful Bucks County, Pennsylvania and just as my all day work commitments ended, the rain really started. This has done nothing good to my attitude but cynicism notwithstanding, I see America, like this day, as a wash out. There are plenty of roads here, some with very low traffic, nearly all narrow, and of course filled with American drivers: some cognescent, some so hostile one wonders how many times a day they beat their dogs. On the front page of today's Philadelphia Inquirer there's a headline that says, "Gas Crisis? Not for NASCAR Nation," which then goes on to detail how RV drivers have decided that their passion for stock car racing outweighs the price of gasoline. We all make our choices and have our priorities and what we _do_ tells us who we are, of course. In the same paper, an article about the new 500hp Cadillac, a car that speaks volumes about values, priorities, and the inexorable road to disaster we gleefully follow.

My point is this: I live and work in communities that care about the environment, have the prosperity to act, and even try to be truly hopeful for the future. I am not. We are outnumbered by the sheer volume of rednecks, which is further compounded by the social realities of work, urban and suburban living/planning/design, and the sheer magnitude of the issues. America's march of folly will be like that of all empires past. May my children have a good life despite all that and may I get home from a bike ride in one piece. That's all I hope for. As for cyclists, be careful out there: be really careful.

gloomy day, sure, but I honestly feel like this every single day,mostly 'cause the evidence is simply so overwhelming and obvious,

dbrk

[Avispa]

America's march of folly will be like that of all empires past... May my children have a good life despite all that and may I get home from a bike ride in one piece. That's all I hope for. As for cyclists, be careful out there: be really careful.

Yeap, just read Crossing the Rubicon by Michael Ruppert, atmo!

[Ray]

I woke up in a different part of the same region as Douglas did this morning, decided not to ride in the same rain, and read the same Philadelphia Inquirer. And my gloomy-ness is of a slightly different variety and I think it must be chemically rather than circumstantially induced.

I find it very easy to find lots and lots of very narrow, winding, and hilly country roads to ride on with VERY VERY few cars and the vast vast vast majority of those few drivers I encounter are extremely considerate, if not always cognescent of what constitutes dangerous for cyclists. Most of the relatively small number of close calls I've had have been my fault, only a few have been the driver's fault.

And the same stuff about gas guzzlers bother me as bother Douglas, but I'm more concerned about the AMOUNT that we all drive than I am at what vehicles some of us are driving. I have less problem with a redneck driving a slightly bigger pickup than he needs 50 miles per week or so than an environmentalist driving a hybrid 300 miles a week in order to live in the sticks and work in the city. Or not drive that much but live in a big-a$$ house with huge energy consumption for heating and cooling and lights and computers and hot tubs, etc, etc, etc. Or all of the above. I've done all of these things at various times and continue to do too many of them now, so I'm pointing the finger as much at myself as much as everyone else. We all use so many resources for so many frivilous activities that I only know about three people who can really justify being critical of the rest of us (car-free, transit and bike users, self-sufficient solar houses and grow the bulk of their own food organically - a tough lifestyle to maintain) - and as much as I admire and respect these few folks, I'm far from ready to trade places with them. I make my own choices that are far from pure and have trouble being too critical of others who make a different set of choices that are equally far from pure (or even slightly farther).

I don't pretend that these actions are without consequence - we're collectively heading for a brick wall and seem to be more inclined toward the accellerator than the brake. But once I've decided to do what I'm willing to do to create less impact personally, what's the point of being gloomy about it? I'd just be gloomy all the time. I'd rather do my relatively constructive little bit of work, love my family, and go ride on those very quiet little roads (mostly supported by the selfish land preservation practices of the super-rich that just causes more sprawl in different places, by the way) every chance I get.

It's all tradeoffs, and the sun seems to be re-emerging yet, so I think I will go ride my bicycle! Life, once again, is good :) .

-Ray

[Fat Robert]

not very many cars down here, and nobody yells bad things at the fat man these days...

however, americans are fat spoiled brats whose doctrine of possessive individualism drives them to buy things like hummers and $15,000 vanity bikes. we regard public space as "ours" in the purest private sense, which is pretty effed up, when you think about it.

mrs. fat wants to do PR in germany. maybe fatmo should give in...there are a lot of sporting fatties like me...magenta is slimming, too

[saab2000]

mrs. fat wants to do PR in germany. maybe fatmo should give in...


Where in Deutschland?

[asgelle]

well here again
when i see people riding at the roads of usa i have great respect for them ,as people in car do not take any care of them

for myselve it hard for my to think or training on those roads with seperations of other trafic
here in europa we also have roads together with cars
but there is a totaly differant attitude of the people against cyclist

cees
Area Belgium: 11,755 sq mi., Population: 10.3 million
Area New Mexico, USA: 121,600 sq mi., Population: 1.8 million

Amazing how you could know so much about our local roads and traffic. Do you prefer the West Loop or the Armory Ride?

[ada@prorider.or]

Amazing how you could know so much about our local roads and traffic.


meaby that i road about 20.000 mile s across usa
and been to several race´´s

[CalfeeFly]

For myself I found going into the "country" to ride safely and alone produced people not expecting a bike and almost running me down; rednecks trying to run me down; huge SUV's "knowing" they were allowed to run me down; old folks in their Buicks almost running me down; tar and chip roads that add a new look on rolling resistance; 15 percent climbs since the roads were made by Indians originally or pioneers; narrow roads with no shoulders; and little regard for anything resembling a bicycle.

For me I go into the "busy" city and rarely have anyone bother me. The drivers are used to bikes and learned to accept them. The most dangerous driver is the old guy in the Buick still clueless to the world around him. Other than that I find the rides uneventful and safe. (I do avoid streets where the traffic volume is high which don't have bike lanes or room for bikes. I usually need only pick a street one or two over to enjoy my ride.)

:bike:

[Fixed]

Area Belgium: 11,755 sq mi., Population: 10.3 million
Area New Mexico, USA: 121,600 sq mi., Population: 1.8 million

Amazing how you could know so much about our local roads and traffic. Do you prefer the West Loop or the Armory Ride?
bro show little respect ..he's the prof. if you want to be rude go ahead and let me have it . but I won't repond back
cheers

[Avispa]

i agree with your atmo.

You see, at least on this one, I am not that bad a Sybil, uh?

[nobrakes]

Cees seems to have the same questions about cyclist's safety here in the good 'ol USA. I've just returned from a 2 week cycling trip to Spain. We were in the Sierra Nevadas most of the time, but did ride to the Med. coast for a day. I have to say that Spanish drivers are far more respectful than most American drivers, who tend to drive in a mostly distracted mode. Spanish drivers pay attention, and don't feel they 'own the road' as most U.S. drivers seem to.

Coming back from my wonderful trip to Spain, I'm assaulted with the news of 3 fellow Oregonians (one in Eugene, 2 in nearby Forest Grove) whose live were snuffed out needlessly. The couple in Forest Grove were legally riding, perfect weather, daylight, and the person that took them out wasn't even sighted for any traffic infractions, even though it was alledged he drove into the bike lane to have hit these riders.

Bad news to come home to, and these actions caused by driver inattention just almost seem like they couldn't happen in Spain, although some do. Sorry, I'm venting here, but somebody, as Cees suggests, has to wake U.S. drivers up.

[catulle]

cees

You got that right, bubba. The way people in CT and Mass. drive is unbelievable. I thought we drove badly down in the tropics, but when in CT I find myself missing my Cal. 50 at every corner, atmo. Brave cyclists, indeed. Be careful, take care, and God bless, atmo.

[Zard]

These past few days I have been in beautiful Bucks County, Pennsylvania and just as my all day work commitments ended, the rain really started. This has done nothing good to my attitude but cynicism notwithstanding, I see America, like this day, as a wash out. There are plenty of roads here, some with very low traffic, nearly all narrow, and of course filled with American drivers: some cognescent, some so hostile one wonders how many times a day they beat their dogs. On the front page of today's Philadelphia Inquirer there's a headline that says, "Gas Crisis? Not for NASCAR Nation," which then goes on to detail how RV drivers have decided that their passion for stock car racing outweighs the price of gasoline. We all make our choices and have our priorities and what we _do_ tells us who we are, of course. In the same paper, an article about the new 500hp Cadillac, a car that speaks volumes about values, priorities, and the inexorable road to disaster we gleefully follow.

My point is this: I live and work in communities that care about the environment, have the prosperity to act, and even try to be truly hopeful for the future. I am not. We are outnumbered by the sheer volume of rednecks, which is further compounded by the social realities of work, urban and suburban living/planning/design, and the sheer magnitude of the issues. America's march of folly will be like that of all empires past. May my children have a good life despite all that and may I get home from a bike ride in one piece. That's all I hope for. As for cyclists, be careful out there: be really careful.

gloomy day, sure, but I honestly feel like this every single day,mostly 'cause the evidence is simply so overwhelming and obvious,

dbrk

DBRK:

I'm sorry that you see America as a wash out.

I don't know you but I'm having a hard time reconciling what you are saying with the lifestyle you live, which is fairly well documented on this board. I grew up in Rochester. My father taught at UofR. We lived with in a nice neighborhood within a few miles of campus. He could walk, ride his bicycle or take the bus if he wanted to.

You instead, have chosen to live far outside of town. I assume you drive a gasoline car many miles to get to work. You utilize airplanes to fly all over the country. You own more than one bike in fact you own an excessive amount of bikes. You seem to be an excessive consumer of a lot of things that many people would view as an unnecessary waste of resources. In other words, you are just as American in your consumerism as those Nascar types. Now, having said that, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I wish I could afford a bunch of bikes and have a home with acerage.

In fact, like you, a lot of people in this country want to live away from the maddening crowd. Thus, we have built vast suburbs. They necessarily require a lot of autos to get people transported to their schools, work and stores. This isn't Europe.

Now, as to our march of folly.

If you asked a world citizen their opinion about the USA throughout most of the last century they would not term our country as one on a march of folly but instead as one on a march of liberation and hope. At least that's what my European relatives have always said it was.

Not every country or system is perfect. Europeans for all of their purported progressive views and wonderful bike paths have managed to saddle the world within the last 100 years with two world wars killing countless tens of millions of innocent people as well as such wonderful things like religous intolerance, genocides, etc. The same can be true for a lot of other places in the world. Think, China, USSR, etc. There are other places in the world needing help. My mother spent a lot of time in India and said it was hands down the most awful place in the world for a human being to try to even exist.

Notwithstanding Iraq, it's hard to view the US as an Empire. We are not occupying or governing vasts parts of the world like the Romans or the British, etc. We may influence a lot of what happens in the world but I'd like to think that on the whole it is a more positive influence than a negative one.

Well, I hope you find some hope in your life.

[67-59]

I agree that American drivers by and large don't treat cyclists well. But reading these posts, it strikes me that driver attitudes toward cyclists are a reflection of their attitudes generally toward others. And to a certain extent, that seems to vary by region of the country, and big city vs. smaller town.

I dunno where all of you folks live, but when I read of daily or near daily altercations with drivers, I shake my head and wonder. I live in a medium sized town in the midwest, and while I have certainly experienced the cursing redneck driver, I have found it to be soooooo out of the norm. Instead, I regularly have drivers (including those in pickups and SUVs) giving me a wide berth, waiting to pass if there's oncoming traffic, and smiling and waving. Again, they're not all that way, but an overwhelming majority are.

And when I think about it, that largely reflects how people treat me when I'm not on a bike. I am fortunate to live among people who are used to saying "please" and "thank you," holding the door for others, giving out directions to those who are lost, and the like. There are good people like that everywhere, to be sure, but when I travel I seem to come across them with less frequency.

So what says the group? Are there others in the US who, like me, DON'T experience daily horror stories and near misses on their bikes, or am I just the lucky one?

[Ray]

So what says the group? Are there others in the US who, like me, DON'T experience daily horror stories and near misses on their bikes, or am I just the lucky one?
I have a similar experience. To be sure, I've had the occasional aggressive driver get obviously upset with me just for being there, but it happens so rarely it's a non-issue. I've been lucky enough to never have had a serious wreck on my bikes (at least on-road - a couple of pretty good mtb mishaps) and the handfull of close calls that I've had have alsmot all been my fault. I can only think of a couple of incidents where a driver's action put me in real danger.

I'm lucky enough to live in a small town in an exurban area outside of Philly. If I ride in and around my town, it's all good. If I ride to the south, west, and northwest into mostly rural areas, it's incredible. If I ride into the more suburbanized areas to the east, it can suck pretty horrendously and drivers clearly don't want me there. I think if I lived somewhere that required that most of my riding was in heavy suburban traffic, I'd still be primarily mountain biking. Urban and rural riding are great - suburban riding is almost an oxymoron.

-Ray

[Birddog]

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002540580

I live in Oklahoma, a state some might think is heavily populated by "Rednecks". You're probably right, but there is no basis to condemn them as a group. I've had some of my most pleasureable rides in the SE part of this state where there is a heavy concentration of so-called "Rednecks". I think it is to easy to condemn them with easily assigned labels. Personally, I've had more close calls with semis and people on cell phones than I've ever had with "Rednecks". I'm all in favor of a "hands free cell phone" law, I've seen far too many innattentive drivers punching out numbers while trying to steer their vehicle (weapon). Whenever there is a "situation" with a driver, it is amazing how many times it's when there is a pack of riders, usually not in the allowable double pace line, but instead all over the road. There seems to be a herd mentality when a bunch of cyclist are together, that is every bit as disconcerting as the occasional angry/ugly driver. Sometimes I don't blame them for blowing up, we deserve it.

Now, having expressed all that, since the new law linked above was passed a week or so ago, I firmly believe that drivers are well aware for the first time, and are consciously giving us(me) more space. This mornig was the first time some Bozo passed too close to me in awhile, and instead of giving him my usual one fingered salute along with the primal yell, I gave him 3, signifying the new 3 foot law. I doubt he saw it and if he did, I doubt he knew what it meant.

Birddog

[catulle]

true. but there are many more cars now; so even if there are fewer arseholes in terms of percentage; there are a hell of alot more of them in pure quantity. i get into at least one "altercation" per ride.

obtuse

Don't you get into at least one altercation per post also, atmo? :D

[obtuse]

Don't you get into at least one altercation per post also, atmo? :D


why? you got a problem with that? :rolleyes:

obtuse

[CalfeeFly]

67-59 I too ride most times without a problem. I also make it a point to thank drivers when they are nice to me. I also say please and thank you. I also live closer to the Midwest than the northeast...Pittsburgh.

Ray...what are exurbs? I am just curious since I know the Philadelphia area and its incredible sprawl. My father moved to the "country" in the early 50's and almost bought a farm where Plymouth Meeting Mall now stands. In your area I know folks who commute to work in what were the suburbs not very many years ago. I ride in your area (or I did before my car accident) and I could not agree more with your assessment. I love to ride in the Mennonite farm country around Harleysville but away from the Mac Mansions of that area. It is so nice the Mennonites are not selling their land off. I also like to ride in the city of Philadelphia. In between I think I would not have to worry about my failing health much longer. :bike: :banana: (banana for Sandy)

[Ray]

Ray...what are exurbs? I am just curious since I know the Philadelphia area and its incredible sprawl. My father moved to the "country" in the early 50's and almost bought a farm where Plymouth Meeting Mall now stands. In your area I know folks who commute to work in what were the suburbs not very many years ago. I ride in your area (or I did before my car accident) and I could not agree more with your assessment. I love to ride in the Mennonite farm country around Harleysville but away from the Mac Mansions of that area. It is so nice the Mennonites are not selling their land off. I also like to ride in the city of Philadelphia. In between I think I would not have to worry about my failing health much longer.
I live in West Chester Borough. I live right in town and the town has been here since pre-revolutionary times. To the east there's some very expensive farm country left, but loads and loads of burbs. To the south and west and northwest, though, there are a few burbs but loads and loads of undeveloped area. Some of it is horse country, some dirt farms. I ride down into Delaware, out into Lancaster County, and up into Berks County, and the portion in between in Chester is heaven. I can ride from here into Philly using mostly pretty safe roads up to Valley Forge and then the Schuylkill River Trail, but there's a LOT of area between here and there I wouldn't want to ride in.

-Ray

[CalfeeFly]

When I did Pedal PA the first time or two we went into Philadelphia through horse country. It was hard to believe that such rural riding with light traffic was available that close to the city. We then did just what you said rode into Valley Forge and in the trail. :bike:

[spiderlake]

.